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The Forum > General Discussion > Afghanistan why stay?

Afghanistan why stay?

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"Yes there is Hazza, in the minds of some Salafist extremists there is. You refuse to inform yourself about what they believe, at your peril and ignorance."
I keep telling you I know damn well what these people think- and so far, after 16 pages you have FAILED to prove to me that;
1- internationally-orchestrated terrorist attacks occur based on a mythical fundamentalist crusade alone as the motive
2- that terrorists need Bin Laden, and will somehow dissapear if their favourite pinup boy becomes a, you know, martyr.
3- That invading and occupying these countries does not ENCOURAGE extremists to take arms. Who do you think they recruit? How do you think they attract more people?

It's funny you mention Bin Laden vs the Saudis- you should learn about the relationship between the Bin Laden family and the Saudi royals, especially business wise;

Also the increasing Taliban presence in Pakistan- can't possibly be a diaspora from Afghanistan, can it? And you didn't answer my question if we should violate Pakistan's airspace.

I'll skip the oil- the fact that this part of the argument never goes beyond the fact that you are convinced that no other country on the planet has domestic fuel sources and alternate fuels but instead are entirely dependent on importing Saudi oil.
And you are telling me the cost of suddenly transferring dependence on another fuel source in event of a full middle East takeover (which apparently will happen in one single act so that we can't possibly take measures before it happens entirely) is far worse than maintaining the number 1 motive for terrorism in the world?

In short, this discussion has not even changed since it began.
Long since I asked, still giving me evidence to reinforce my point instead of yours, and feeding silly hypothesis that depend on assuming simple things like ethanol not really existing despite it being in every petrol station.

I think this thread is drawing to a close, as there is nothing left to cover except this very post.
Posted by King Hazza, Saturday, 25 September 2010 11:58:08 PM
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*and feeding silly hypothesis that depend on assuming simple things like ethanol not really existing despite it being in every petrol station.*

I have never made that claim, Hazza. Of course ethanol exists.
Of course it can be used in small quantities. But it cannot
replace the 17 million barrels of oil a day, which pass through the
Straits of Hormuz each day and the Straits could easily be blocked
by sinking a few ships. The laying of mines in the Straits would
be all it would in fact take.

Take 17 million barrels a day out of global oil supplies and our
global economy would spin out of control, with oil prices doubling
and tripling overnight and many industries coming to an effective
standstill. No, there are no ethanol refineries ready to go,
to produce that volume. No there are no spare oil fields to pump
replacement oil. It would take years to prepare for it.

So essentially we in the West are still hooked on Gulf oil for
our economic well being. That is why the US stays in the Gulf,
in all our interests.

When Saddam invaded Kuwait, the Saudis were nervous that they
would be next, as their oil fields were close by. They turned to
the US for help and defense, allowing US troops on Saudi soil.
Bin Laden was pissed off with King Fahd, for he was allowing
infidel troops on holy Muslim soil it seems. Bin Laden thought that
his band of fighters could defeat the Iraqi army. Fahd prefered to
rely on US defense systems.

So the West is basically a victim of inter Arab squabbles.

Bin Laden has 4 main hatreds. The US and its allies, Israel,
Shias and heretics.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 26 September 2010 10:50:41 AM
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actually Yabby there is another reason Bin Laden hates the Sauds- you should look it up. His campaigns are substantially as much a vendetta against them alone and their allies than a generic Holy war.

Anyway, I think we're done here; It's becoming too hard to get you to elaborate how any of your doomsday scenarios are to actually occur (which are completely obvious to be based only on an assumption), or to answer half of my points;

Your scenario falls apart because it assumes that Al Queda will, magically, completely conquer the entire Middle East and take control of the oil fields overnight, withholding them from the west until the west converts to Islam; This fails to take into account the fact that a campaign would take TIME- enough for many Western businesses to start advertising the already existing fuel alternatives and enough time for most nations to start converting their fuel infrastructure in anticipation that the Middle East may fall. You instead insist that a dozen countries are going to be taken over and amalgamated into a Bin Laden Caliphate in as little time as a stock market crash.

And again, all this risk, just so we don't have to pay higher prices for fuel-dependent freight services for our goods and invest in alternate infrastructure?

Suit yourself.

Anyway, for everyone else I encourage you to read up on the Bin Ladens, and on the terrorist relations and make your own mind up over whether the motives for terrorists stop at a generic idealistic crusade or not.
Posted by King Hazza, Sunday, 26 September 2010 7:48:05 PM
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*Your scenario falls apart because it assumes that Al Queda will, magically, completely conquer the entire Middle East and take control of the oil fields overnight, withholding them from the west until the west converts to Islam*

You are free to shoot down your own strawman arguments Hazza.
Personally I stick to what I have actually claimed.

If only the global energy problem could be so easily solved, as
creating a bit of ethanol. It ain't that simple. Even if you
converted the entire Australian wheat crop to ethanol, it would
still not be enough and then what would people eat?

My point really was that there are very good reasons for the
US staying in the Gulf, usually at the invitation of Arab Govts,
who know that they are far more threatened by inter Arab squabbling
them by the US. My point is that it is unreasonable to accept that
Arab extremists have the right to wipe Israel off the face of the
map.

Yet these are the very things that upset Islamists. Their global
jihad is a long term strategy, not a short term one. Plenty of
them have commented that long term they will win, simply by outbreeding
the West, so its a case of demographics. They have a
point, as Muslim migrants in places like Holland and the UK have
far more children then traditional Westerners. So its quite
possible, based purely on demographics, that these places will
eventually land up as Islamic. Then you seemingly will accept too,
that this is holy Muslim soil.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 26 September 2010 9:20:53 PM
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