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The Forum > General Discussion > Food and Hygiene - is our reaction over the top.

Food and Hygiene - is our reaction over the top.

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I note with interest that the authorities are creating a 'name and shame' list for food handlers.

I am interested to know what people expect from food handlers and if they would willingly pay more for cleaner outlets.

After all, sound hygienic practices cost money.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 11 September 2010 7:10:02 AM
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Good grief. If business owners trained their staff - and themselves - in GMP and HACCP and held to those principles they wouldn't need. Butchers are the worst for dodgy food handling.
Posted by StG, Saturday, 11 September 2010 9:29:36 AM
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...and to add. This is why people stop buying from butchers and head to the main supermarket chains. Although they aren't 100% guaranteed to be top shelf products you KNOW they are vastly more accountable for their hygiene practices. You comment has put me off butchers for good. I'm sus of my local, as I ask for something and they head out the back to get it and usually it's rubbish, but now, after "sound hygiene costs money", I'm gone. Thanks very much for the heads up.
Posted by StG, Saturday, 11 September 2010 9:38:08 AM
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rechtub! you lead with your chin.
Have you ever had a cockroach race on your toasted sanga?
Rat frighten the flys from your table?
To answer you no we are not tough enough
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 11 September 2010 1:40:59 PM
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Food and hygiene standards in this country are very good, it is one of the main reasons that public health is of such a high standard and we don't have many communicable diseases in this country such as Typhus. If my memory serves me right, i think the last recorded case in Australia was in the 1860's.
I am aware from discussions with HACCP inspectors that there are problems in Sydney with unregistered food facilities that they have first to find before they can shut them down. These are often protected by the communities they are in.
Beside this all commercial food production facilities are required to be inspected at least every year and will have an ongoing program of improvement in place. When we receive something that is ordinary we seem to immediately think the worst. You would actually be surprised about food poisoning in Australia.
Did you know that in the 2008/09 period there were 5.4 million cases of food poisoning reported, of these there were 120 deaths. It is also felt that a large number of cases are never reported as the symptoms are no worse than loose stool or the runs.
What people don't understand is that most of these occur in the home. Food preparation and avoiding infection is complicated and rarely do people truly understand. If you prepare food and freeze it, then you have probably poisoned the family at some stage. There is a 2-2-4 rule. In the first 2 hours after preparation food must be eaten or stored appropriately, in the next 2 hours it must be eaten if the correct temperature has been maintained it can no longer be stored, after 4 hours it must be disposed of.
Ask yourself, do you follow this rule.
I can bet not many do if they are honest, last nights chinese, that pizza all traps. I can bet this won't happen at your local takeaway and if it does report them. Your local council Area health inspector is the starting point.
Posted by nairbe, Saturday, 11 September 2010 4:17:19 PM
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What is the cost of food poisoning? Here is a listing chosen at random:

"Fail to maintain all fixtures, fittings and equipment to the required standard of cleanliness - there was an accumulation of food waste & rodent droppings on equipment, dead rodent observed in tub"
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 11 September 2010 4:21:50 PM
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My missus is immune suppressed because of her double lung transplant. Food poisoning would kill her.
Posted by StG, Saturday, 11 September 2010 7:12:29 PM
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Food and Hygiene - is our reaction over
the top?

We're talking about people who are in
the business of providing these services
hopefully to make a profit - right?
Therefore insisting on compliance with
regulations for the delivery of these
services is part and parcel of what is
required. If businesses can't meet these
requirements then they should look at
another line of work. As for it costing
money? Yes, but it also makes money doesn't it?
And how much does it cost to end up in hospital
with food poisoning?

Have you ever suffered from food poisoning?
It's not something that I'd recommend to
anyone.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 12 September 2010 12:37:19 PM
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Strange thread rechtub, one that was never going to be supported what did they get you for.
Or did you just have the inspectors in and want to get even?
Seems so far no one thinks we go over board in this area for that I say thanks
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 12 September 2010 2:53:21 PM
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The effects of botulism or salmonella are not a pretty sight.

Consumers already pay for good sanitation and health standards in Australia, it is part of the cost of doing business and is already reflected in the price. Being clean is not that hard nor is knowing how much to order to meet market demands albeit with some fluctuations.

Surely we can't be aspiring to match the conditions of those countries where you have to drink bottled water and be careful of what food you eat to avoid dysentery.

I say keep up the pressure on the dodgy food handlers.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 13 September 2010 10:05:14 AM
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I say keep up the pressure on the dodgy food handlers.

Probobly the best comment there. I agree with outlawing dodgy handlers.

So, ask your selves a few questions.

1. When you see mince sold at half the normal price, do you expect it to be of the same quality and processed the same hygenic way as the dear one?

2. When you visit the usually grubby chinese takeaway, do you see them wash the dish prior to placing your meal in it?

3. When you go to lunch/dinner, how often do you go to the bathroom and 'wash up' prior to consuming your meal? I am talking about directly prior.

4. Do you clean the utensiles prior to eating at a resaurant, or, do you simply assume they are clean?

I ask you to observe your local eatery and see how few people 'wash up' before eating. Remeber, they are consumming 'ready to eat' foods which have the highest risk of poisoning. You can ask yourself the same question.

Remember, these days 99% of food handlers preparing ready to eat foods wear gloves, yet, less than 1% of consumers wash thier hands before eating the food they purchased.

Remember,I am referring to after you purchase and before you eat, because you have handled either money, or a card, both of which are dirty.

And to my fan club, thanks once again for the insults. I expected nothing less.

Hygien complience within the meat industry is a very costly item and one that is usually exhaubed by the owner.

Our requirements are higher than those in ready to eat venues, yet, 99% of what we sell gets cooked prior to eating.

Another problem we face is that of pest control. It costs me about $1,000 per year.

We have to have our premises treated every two months, yet, the shops ajoining don't. The cocies you see came in from outside items or from ajoining shops. It is almost impossible to stop, eppecially if a butcher shop is next to a fruit shop as they are up there with the worst.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33:34 AM
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rehctub
We don't know what is happening behind the scences in a restaurant or take-away, and we do assume the cutlery is clean but we never absolutely know. This is why health inspections are necessary particularly in response to complaints. Mince bought on special is probably a bit older than the expensive stuff but I would expect it to be treated in the same hygienic condition as per the health standards and using a bit of commonsense.

A police officer friend of mine once had to call on a restaurant owner in relation to an offence and came through the back door. The amount of mice and other vermin milling around the food stocks and the muck on the floor was enough to report that owner to the food authorities.

Needless to say I have stored that one in my brain as one place never to eat.

There is no excuse these days for bad hygiene practices. Asking us to analyse what we do at home is not really relevant as we make those choices ourselves. We can be pigs or we can choose to be hygienic, use different cutting boards for meat and non-meat products etc. However in a restaurant we are at the mercy of the ethics of the food provider.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 10:18:27 AM
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rehctub,
AH you are a butcher, explains the line of the post. I am a trained environmental health officer. I get your problem with vermin but it always comes down to the same issue of cost and the preparedness of others to co operate with cleaning.
Ready to eat food outlets are under just as many reg's as you are and in some ways more, Restaurants though tend to slip the tight regulation that takeaways do because food is prepare to order and served immediately.
Your main point though is very correct, personal hygien in the community is appalling. As i said earlier most food poisoning happens at home because people do things like buy mince from you then leave it in the fridge for a day then make dinner from it. Most people don't understand about micro-biology and infected surface area that makes mince so lethal.
Next time you are at your local shopping centre that has renovated it's toilets recently, you will notice that you can now enter go to the toilet and wash and dry your hands without having to touch any surfaces. Appreciate the cost of this to the centre management as well as the increased up keep on electronic taps and dryers.
The cost of public health is enormous and most people don't ever see what it does, it keeps our communities from outbreaks of serious disease and many deaths due to poisoning. Imagine if we had no immunisation program, the polio problem would be hugh with the way no one seems to wash their hands any more.
I feel for you and competition you face from the big grocery stores. I always buy my meat from my local butcher because his quality is better and i have built a trust in him.
Posted by nairbe, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 5:23:29 PM
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Nairbe >>Ready to eat food outlets are under just as many reg's as you are and in some ways more

I am sorry to disgree with you here, but I do.

Take a 'meat pie'. They should by law be stored and sold at 65DegC+, yet, if they were, they would burn you so badly that you would require medical treatment, so, they rarely are.

Take your local market stall. Do you really think they follow correct proceedures at all times and, do you think they are policed enough?

People buy food from them, so do I. So why all the fuss about registered food outlets, when these casual operators don't have to comply.

Most don't even have running water, let alone hot and cold!

In any case, it is wrong for people to expect top class hygiene if they themselves fail to uphold these standards.

How many people buy from market stalls and eat their foods without first washing their hands. Who knows, they may have touched a kitten, bird or puppie just prior.

So, the question begs, are they complaing because of poor hygiene, or, is it simply because they are a business and should do better.

I feel there is often a double standard here.

Also, how many here have been to asia and bragged about the cheap food, often cooked in the gutter.

The saying there is often, 'the dirtiest wok has the best food'.

I must stress though that highly in favor of targeting dodgy operators back here.

But where do we draw the line. Surely inacurate records, they being the most common of non-conformities, does not warrent naming and shaming.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33:57 PM
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Yes take away food should be kept ar 65 Deg. Today i bought something at my local takeaway and noted the lack of heat in the product. Generally though i do usually have to allow the pies i buy at my local bakery to cool for a minute or two before eating as they are to hot. All food boxes or bain maries are meant to have a thermometer visible in the box and a record of what time a product was cooked. Whether these regulations are complied with or not is another issue as is whether all butchers comply with the regulations relating to the use of a certain chemical in mince to keep it looking red. It is hard work if you follow the regulations correctly and i applaud you for doing so. For the others they are running the gauntlet all the time and if caught the penalty can be harsh though rarely is for first offences.
I am currently not in the industry as i prefer to be working more physically, i know things are changing all the time and i am quite out of date. None the less EHA is a good source of information. http://www.aieh.org.au/index.php
The naming and shaming of people for the poor keeping of records seems a trifle harsh, but for the falsification of records it is appropriate.
Posted by nairbe, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 7:51:23 PM
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rehctub,

It is accepted that there are many food handling premises where hygiene is very poor. Having done food deliveries and waiting on tables as a student I can say without hesitation that few people would eat out if they ever paid an impromptu visit to many, make that most, kitchen and food storage areas before the day begins. I am the first to applaud Gordon Ramsay for his service to the trade and to patrons, by being the only chef on TV to reveal the most obvious problem in food preparation.

In the Australian context, some establishments seem to get a lot of warnings, even over serious matters, before any formal action is taken. There are people who should be disqualified from ever being involved in the food industry.

On other hand anyone who has had anything to do with the export requirements for meat would be aghast at the meat handling practices of retail butchers. For instance, just how often are those knives and steels cleaned? Not trying to have a shot at butchers, but our food standards are not as onerous as they might be.

Where rehctub could complain is concerning the lack of inspection at source and poor description of foods brought into Australia. Other countries and in particular the United States use import standards as effective tariff barriers against our exports, but the Australian government (particularly the LNP) on the other hand is quick to take the side of 'business' (who are taking profits out of Australia) over and above our own producers and consumers.
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 8:13:28 PM
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rechtub take a step back.
read your last two posts.
then the first.
all over the shop like those cockies bloke.
in the end we all agree ,you too we need more not less regulations.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 6:07:32 AM
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Belly,
I get the feeling that rehctub feels that there is an unfair focus on butchers over other types of food handling businesses. I can understand his frustration as the methods of policing the problem are casual and normally a business will know that an inspection is coming and can clean up for it. Mind you butchers are just as bad and are under the HACCP system of auditing not inspection. The more engaged they are in the system the more straight forward it will be.
Otherwise i can not support this assertion, have a look at the regulations involved in food preparation for the elderly and hospitals, Hot cart systems and the auditing requirements for these businesses to remain in operation.
We have very good public health but can always do more but the usual question must be asked, who is to pay for it. The cost of increasing the regularity of audits and inspections would be considerable and would in the case of HACCP be passed on to the business. I don't see that going down to well. Inspection costs would fall on council and that to would not work as council have had their responsibilities increased over the past 20 years but not their budgets.
I see the best outcome is to require all food outlets and restaurants to engage in the auditing system and increase the required standard. This would force pricing up but someone has to pay and as usual in Australia it is always a good idea until we have to pay for it then it's that over regulating over taxing governments fault.
Posted by nairbe, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 7:18:49 AM
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Well you may be surprised, but I think that the regulation of industry is a good thing, not a bad thing.

However, my thread is more to the point of, 'do we over react to food safety'.

Now, before you answer this, how many of us willingly purchase food from a market stall, or school fund raiser stall, knowing full well that thier food handling proceedures are inferior to those of registered businesses.

More importantly, why do we target the registerd businesses harder than these stalls?

Remember, I am fully suportive of cracking down on dodgy oporators.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 8:39:46 PM
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Having been a victim of food poisoning on three occasions during my life Rechtub I have to say in all fairness that the weather turning/changing were two causative facts resulting in both salmon and ham almost killing me 20 years ago; the other being steak sandwiches around the same time that were off prior to cooking and serving.

However, in recent times I have known victims of food poisoning discovering afterwards that trays upon which the food was served and plates have had bacteria on them, which contaminated the food served.
One of the cruise ship's a couple of years ago blamed filthy serving trays as the problem that contaminated hundreds of people.

A girlfriend of mine last year consumed salmon for the first time and it resulted in food poisoning and her being hospitalised.

I have not touched salmon or purchased pre-cooked steak since, nor frozen pizzas or dinners - psychological after suffering and clearly remembering the week of pain!
Posted by we are unique, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 11:11:57 PM
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Next time you are at your local shopping centre that has renovated it's toilets recently, you will notice that you can now enter go to the toilet and wash and dry your hands without having to touch any surfaces. Appreciate the cost of this to the centre management as well as the increased up keep on electronic taps and dryers.

A great point, though the problem is Nairbe, that most people who have not washed their hands [along with those handling money, fruit and veg] turn the door handle that leads in and out of the toilets, which makes it all fairly pointless in terms of thinking 'my hands are now clean' off I zoom to a coffee shop for a coffee or something to eat.

I wash my hands if on the one-off occasion I need to visit a public loo, grab some hand roll paper [if there is any] and turn the main toilet door handle if there are no push out doors.

The latest Australian study broadcasted recently regarding the handling of money, demonstrates that most people do not catch diseases and germs from handling money daily. Common sense would have dictated the contrary!Probably because we dispose of our change too quickly!

Of the people I know who have suffered from food poisoning, most have traced the cause back to contaminated trays, plates or packing materials and food not kept at the right temperature when weather changes from winter to spring to summertime, in particular ham seafood and salmon.
Posted by we are unique, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 11:31:39 PM
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we are unique,
I seriously question whether you actually understand the issue of food poisoning in the community. The high lighting of matters involved around poisoning due to comercial operations are minimal compared to the occurrences of poisoning in the home. We are always quick to identify food vendors when they are guilty of food poisoning but rarely understand when we do it to ourselves.
It is the self imposed issue that happens much more often than any other and more often than not we blame that chicken out let because it was last nights left overs we at that gave us the food poisoning. Yes they sold it to us but they didn't advise eating it 12 hours later.
As i have already said in this post, most people have such a limited understanding of micro-biology and how food poisoning occurs that they make poor accusations on the issue and unjustly blame vendors that have done nothing but serve you what you wanted.
OH, if you don't wash you hands after you go to the toilet, well that is your problem and you deserve to get food poisoning.
Posted by nairbe, Thursday, 16 September 2010 9:01:26 PM
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One of the reasons we suffer from food poisoning (minior cases) is that as a society we are simply not hard enough.

Gone are the days of kids eating dirt, beetles and anything else that may be on the lawn.

Kids today are far to often brought up in a sterile coocoon like environment and as such, their imune systems simply can't cope.

There are many myths about food handling, like re-freezing.

It is safe to re-freeze food provided it has been thawed and stored correctly. Kept below 5DegC at all times.

You see, most people thaw on the side of the sink and this is where the problem starts as bactira requires two elements to grow. Temp above 5Deg C and moisture.

Best advise is to thaw your foods under refrigeration, however, this does take longer so you must be prepared.

BTW, did you know that you can thaw, re-freeze and thaw green prawns as often as you like and they won't spoil.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 17 September 2010 6:59:25 AM
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rehctub,
In theory that is correct. In practice you will notice a decline in the product quality, this is not here nor there but just a side issue of freezing.
You can not as a commercial operation refreeze product. Also micro organisms operate when they have three conditions.

1. A source of nutrient. (the food)
2. water
3. correct temperature.

The majority of micro organisms will grow best between 5 deg and 32 deg. There are many though that operate happily outside of these temperatures. This is why 65 deg is required to stop organisms growing but not all. Freezing is also no sure way of stoping micro organism growing. There are a whole family of organisms that use these conditions. From there you also have to consider aerobic and anaerobic organisms and the effect these can have.
Things are never so simple and i would never advise people to refreeze food as it is just plain dangerous unless done in very controlled conditions.
As for kid's, well yep i agree we do keep them to sterile these days. It came from an era when hygiene diseases were prevalent, (like polio).
I will admit that i have always let my kids roll in the mud and poo, hell they are kids let them play. We do have the advantage of having 25 acres to play on too.
Posted by nairbe, Friday, 17 September 2010 7:23:20 AM
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rechtub,

"One of the reasons we suffer from food poisoning (minior cases) is that as a society we are simply not hard enough."

Dammit, thanks for making me spray coffee all over my screen.
Posted by StG, Friday, 17 September 2010 2:50:35 PM
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OH, if you don't wash you hands after you go to the toilet, well that is your problem and you deserve to get food poisoning [Nairbe]

Re-read my post and interpret correctly Nairbe as it was written. I ALWAYS wash my hands after visiting the loo. My post stated that there are other people visiting public loos who do not wash their hands; therefore when I am exiting a Loo, I take a piece of hand roll, pop it over the door handle and leave.

Secondly, my children nor I have ever suffered food poisoning from my meat and/or food preparation. Read again what I have stated. All of the occasions 20 years ago suffering from the 3 bouts of food poisoning were from take away places with my farmer husband when we were both young on our way home from a trip.

Sure, there would be people contaminating their own food prepared and cooked at home; fortunately for 20 years after suffering food poisoning from take-away, I am meticulous and having a brother who is a Chef and owns restaurants that are highly acclaimed has assisted!

Enjoy your weekend; poison free Nairbe!
Posted by we are unique, Friday, 17 September 2010 9:42:43 PM
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We are unique, I'm middle aged, and haven't washed my hands after using a public toilet since I was a child. I've never caught anything. I think your idea of putting paper over the toilet door handle so you don't have to directly touch it is a tad obsessive. Kind of like someone who crosses the road only after looking left and right 30 times.
Posted by Transki, Friday, 17 September 2010 11:19:02 PM
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