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The Forum > General Discussion > Free Our Schools

Free Our Schools

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Free Our Schools
Almost all children now believe they go to school to pass exams. The idea that they may be there for an education is irrelevant. State schools have become exam factories, interested only in A to C Grades. They do not educate children. Exam results do not reflect a candidate’s innate ability. Employers have moaned for years that too many employees cannot read or write properly. According to a survey, school-leavers and even graduates lack basic literacy and numeracy skills. More and more companies are having to provide remedial training to new staff, who can’t write clear instructions, do simple maths, or solve problems. Both graduates and school-leavers were also criticised for their sloppy time-keeping, ignorance of basic customer service and lack of self-discipline.

Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be trusted.

The British Government is planning to make it easier to schools to “opt out” from the Local Authorities. Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim
Posted by Iftikhar, Monday, 28 June 2010 1:16:00 AM
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Sorry, I think the British government had a stupid idea.
Public funding for SECULAR, PUBLIC schools only.

Kids can learn about religion at, you know, church.
Posted by King Hazza, Monday, 28 June 2010 11:39:22 AM
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Be aware the thread starter has form for trying to stirr up trouble.
I give no value to him/her and will not bother with the thread again.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 28 June 2010 5:27:40 PM
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Belly mate... it always seems to be the same theme too :)

But let's make use of this thread...

Have a look at this and see what you make of it ?

Cloward-Piven Strategy

Cheers..
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 28 June 2010 6:21:57 PM
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Iftikhar
And your first paragraph started so well. School can sometimes be too focussed on exam results rather than education, creativity and encouraging questioning and lateral thinking.

What do you mean opt-out of the school system? There are already Muslim faith based schools in Australia just as there are Christian ones, but they all have to conform to a curriculum but there is some flexibility. There is also the option of home-schooling.

"Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum."

Muslim children have the same access to public schools as any other faith group. A faith is not a culture - Islamic children come from many different cultures - Pakistani, Iranian, Indonesian and Malaysian just to name a few. Which culture and language are you going to teach?

Multiculturalism is about acceptance of all cultures, which is not served by encouraging segregated ghettos or the idea of separate nations within nations. (If that is what you are implying - I am unsure if it that is what you are implying by your post.)

The fact you see people only in terms of Muslim or Non-Muslim is a concern and hardly a positive sign of tolerance.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 28 June 2010 7:19:24 PM
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good thread, same respondents, strange responses. As the parent of three children attending government schools in this country i have to say what Iftikhar is saying is the biggest load of b**ls**t i have read in years.

Education in this country has moved dramatically away from exame based outcomes. Beside HSC which has eased off over the last decades. The increased stress for our students is rooted in the overwhelming expectations of parents who seem to think that their little Johnny is the next Stephan Hawking.

The main system we now use if you like is what they call evidence based assessment. This means that students are assessed on a body of work that is built over the year, not just exames. Also the scope and diversity that exists in the curriculum destroys the whole argument. Literacy levels have never been better, its just we never used to count the kids that left school at 8 - 14 years of age and worked as poverty stricken labourers for the rest of their lives.

If you want to discuss social welfare policy and playground development programs as areas of deficiency and underfunding then yes let's.
Oh, and all the muslim and religious undertones that are within. Really, they don't do the argument any good. Religion should be kept out of schools and stay where it belongs, in the church.

I only have praise for our schools, they are not perfect and can always improve as can we all. I see the work they do with my oldest daughter who has an intelectual disability and marvel. My sisters whom both Teach in the UK will refute completely the whole concept being put forward. The problems in the system over there (as is explained to me) is rooted in the inadequate training of staff who don't understand what teaching is and are ill prepared to cope with the realities of teaching a class of children.
Posted by nairbe, Monday, 28 June 2010 7:46:03 PM
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Isn't all the same war words. You are you and you are you.........it gets a bit boring at times.( spelling), and I for the life of me, cant see what your fighting about! What is here right now is Australian! We have the best brains in the world as far as Iam concerned, And when I walk down the common street, I see a world as one already!

Free our schools. They are free!

What is wrong with you? You know the world is getting smaller, So why are you not getting smarter?

You have the same blood? don't you? You have the same brains, Dont you,............So what is stopping you from shacking hands?

Australia is a place of peace. But there comes a time to shut the gates? I will leave it up to you.

To live in Australia, You must have a mind for this land. You must have a mind for the people. You must have a mind for the world of the future, which none of us can stop.

These are all Facts!

I want balance! And I will not stop until I see it!

If your here! Thats fine.

Before this land is distorted, I say Shut the gates, unless you have some-thing to give to this GREAT, UNCONTAMINATED, CLEAN, SELF-SUSTAINING, AND THE BEST OF THE PEOPLE I HAVE EVER SEEN!

Give this away and what have you got?

Yes people! Have a Good look at the rest of them?

ARE WE NOT sitting sweet.
yOU BE THE JUDGE

TTm
Posted by think than move, Monday, 28 June 2010 8:05:16 PM
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Nairbe mate... that *iftikar* appears to be in the UK and regularly writes some inflammatory article here.. for...well..I dunno :)

But check this out.. it will be more entertaining..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4NMoyarAM4

It's a parody of Glenn Beck.. (who does have some behavioral similarities to this parody..but his content is pretty good usually)

Pelly.. surely you know this Iftik.. person by now ?

Why waste your precious thoughts on the troll?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 28 June 2010 8:47:52 PM
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May I add to Pelican's comments [thanks Pelican, yet another of your factual viewpoints shared], Lftikhar and say that in every school, whether it be state or private, many kids are of all denominations. Within the catholic system, many children are not 'catholic'. Many of my kids had friends from all different cultures and religious backgrounds including athiests at their private schools. What people write on admissions sheets are entirely different to their beliefs and lifestyles.
In other words, people intentionally 'lie' to enlist their children in private schools as their choice of education for their kids. They skip the sacraments part and allow their confused kids to go along with the remainder of the curriculum.

In all fairness, if governments partially fund private schools for the catholic, anglican and Christian schools, and Australia's vision is to be one of multicultural, then people of muslim faith should open their own schools and apply for part funding. It would be a hypocritical society and government if equality was not taken into account with part funding not granted.
Posted by we are unique, Monday, 28 June 2010 9:26:00 PM
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ALGIR
No comment is wasted - Iftikhar has a right to his/her view as do you.

However, I cannot stand bigotry in any form even if it comes from minorities. Being a member of a minority does not give one a special pass or 'get out of jail free' card on matters of intolerance.

As TTM said, the world is becoming smaller but some people are determined to maintain old hatreds rather than work towards a more harmonious state of affairs.

Hi we are unique
For various reasons we sent one of our children to a private school and the issue of religion was discussed with our daughter. The school quite happily takes non-religious students without the need to lie, the only requirement being of course they attend Chapel and RE. Muslim and Hindus at the school also attended Chapel and RE. It was an Anglican School, I am not sure if a Catholic School would knowingly take on a child from a non-Catholic home. It might come down to numbers.

As parents we accepted the fact we choose the school we adhere to their rules - one accepts that in making a choice to go private. My daughter got a Distinction in RE for questioning. Go figure! She is now a well rounded adult who remains an atheist. Kids will work it out for themselves.

Let's face it, our children's values and beliefs are largely shaped in the home.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 28 June 2010 11:22:26 PM
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I am pleased to see such a sensible string of responses here! Muslim children certainly do have the right to be educated within their culture. If that culture is Australian, then they have the right to be educated within an Australian cultural context in any of our state schools. If they wish to add religious elements to that education, then the Muslim community is more than welcome to establish a private school, just as the Catholic, Anglican, Uniting and various other sectors have done. And, I might add, many Muslim communities within our nation have done.

I've already given my opinion on the chaplaincy in state schools in a recent thread, so I'll only go so far as to say that I don't like it. If parents want their kids to have a religious education, then they can send them to religious schools. My parents never had money when I was growing up, but they managed to scrape the dollars together nonetheless, because they wanted a Catholic education for me.

Now, teaching in a Catholic school, I'll add (in response to pelican) that, like Anglican schools, Catholic schools open their doors to non-Catholics, though it is largely governed by numbers. There has been a shift away from this in a number of regions, though, as diocesan authorities are plagued with Catholic parents angry that there is 'no room' at Catholic schools for their kids. The school at which I work takes Catholics first and, in addition, gives preference to Catholic kids who attended Catholic primary schools. The rationale is that the Church contributes considerable funding to the school and subsidises places (which is part of why Catholic schools are generally the cheapest private options), so the Church has a responsibility to look out for its own community. My school does have a number of non-Catholic and non-Christian students, though - all of whom participate in liturgies and RE (though in senior studies, RE is usually replaced with the more sociological 'deconstruction' of religion offered in SOR).
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 2:05:08 AM
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Dear Otokonoko

You say:

"Muslim children certainly do have the right to be educated within their culture."

of course they do.. just like 'Children of God' children have a 'right' to be educated by their own religious culture that 'sex' is not evil when an old fart like David Moses Berg is getting a little errr.. frisky....after all.. he worked out the doctrine 'under god' (his version) thennn...hey..it's allll good...right ?

Let me ask you honestly.. do you support a cult like that being allowed to teach that 'flirty fishing' is fine and that adult child sex outside of marriage is fine? I'm really hoping for an answer here..and then.. well.. let's see your response first please..ok?

Here is a video to assist your consideration:

Leader...David Berg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URAQ9zznUNI&feature=related

Follower....His daughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1jQ2pessjs&feature=related

Others.... children

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUAvrp_eEYA&feature=related

Now..the issue here becomes.. "Islam"... is it a cult ? What IS...a cult? if you found similarities between the above linked cult and Islamic doctrines examples and practice... would you not be a little concerned and perhaps want to place a few proviso's on your blanket statement?

"Muslim children certainly do have the right to be educated within their culture."

Muslim Children.
COG children.
Nambla Children.
Lesbian cult children
Gay cult children...
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 5:45:13 PM
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The Exclusive Brethren have often been described as a cult, I believe. Don't they have their own schools here in Australia, subsidised substantially by Australian taxpayers?

Abolish all taxpayer funding to religious schools of any persuasion, I say. While we're at it, abolish tax concessions to all religious organisations.

I don't see any difference between a Muslim madrassah and an Exclusive Brethren school.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 7:19:41 PM
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I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, ALGOREisRICH. As far as I can tell, you are asking me to compare apples with oranges.

Islam is a widely practised, widely respected religion that, for the most part, does not raise child protection concerns and, for the most part, adheres to the laws of our society. I say 'for the most part', because there are certainly crackpot Muslims, just as there are crackpot Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Jews, Hindus, agnostics, atheists and, indeed, crackpots of all creeds.

The Children of God, on the other hand, are a fundamentally subversive group whose leader followed and endorsed a lifestyle that was in clear breach of a number of our society's laws. Islam does not do this (and don't bother replying with quotes from the Koran that imply otherwise: there are plenty of quotes from our Bible that are pretty heinous by today's standards, but nonetheless it is one of the cornerstones on which our society has been built).

In short, I don't object to law-abiding members of other religions establishing schools in which their law-abiding children can be brought up without the alien celebrations of Easter and Christmas, and without the alien preachings of government-sponsored chaplains.
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 8:48:34 PM
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Salaam

According to a report by a leading US think-tank, Islamic schools or masrasses in Pakistan are not stoking miltancy or extremism. In my opinion, British schooling has been producing Muslim youths who are angry and frustrated. They do not know where they belong. Majority of them leave schools with low grades. The number of Muslim inmates in British prisons is on the rise. Muslim children suffer from racism in schools becasue British education is the home of institutional racism and native teachers are chicken racists.

The demand for state funded Muslim schools is in accordance with the law of the land. Muslim community is not asking for any favour. I set up the first Muslim school in !981 and now there are 166 Muslim schools and only 11 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a dtste funded Muslim school because Muslim community pays all sorts of taxes and is less burden on social services. I hope that one day my dream will come true.

Human being is the product of his culture, language and faith. Human rights are also regarded as linguistic rights. English has become lingua franca or lingua frankensteinia. Cultural and linguistic genocide is very common. British schooling is murdering community languages. English is today the world killer language. Linguistic genocide is a crime against humanity. Genocide of a language causes mental and physical harm. It is a crime against humanity.

Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time, they need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit
Posted by Iftikhar, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:06:59 PM
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Perhaps they could take the 100 million pounds (at a conservative estimate, 2006) spent each year on translation services for residents who don't speak English and spend it on a couple of Muslim schools. Of course, it would mean that not only the children, but also their parents, would have to degrade themselves by speaking the language of their adopted country (or country of birth, in many cases). Seriously, Iftikhar, with an attitude like yours I'm unsurprised that you are fronted with considerable racism. Your demeaning talk of the 'notorious monolingual' Brits, to whose level no Muslim wishes to descend, is as arrogant as the rhetoric I heard during my childhood in the white Rhodesian community. And we all know how that ended.
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:24:45 AM
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I know I said I would not come back.
But to the troubled thread starter these words.
Try as hard as you will, you will never convince me all of your faith are as lost and divisive as you are.that your power base is other than the truly lost,
No you have not drawn me into debate, I do not value you or your opinions enough to stay.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 1:39:55 AM
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There is a difference between education and indoctrination.

If you want a rounded education you look for sport, music, art etc.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 6:25:42 AM
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Well said Otokonoko.

Iftikhar
You sound like you want the nation-within-a-nation approach including a separate language. If you don't want to become an English speaking Brit then may I suggest you choose a place of residence where the languages and ideals suit your own. If you currently live in Britain then I hate to break it to you but you are already a Brit.

I would not presume to move to another country and insist they teach my language at their schools and accept a different curriculum that may not meet their standards or national uniformity.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:29:46 AM
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Dear Oto
I've been trying to avoid this, but clearly we need to a tad deeper here.

You say:

//I say 'for the most part', because there are certainly crackpot Muslims,//

I assume by this that you mean that any Muslim who raises child protection questions is a crackpot ?

The more important question Oto is this... 'irrespective of our western laws'..... what does the 'faith' itself actually teach or permit?

If it were to teach something blatantly at odds with our laws.. does it not stand to reason they would tread softly softly on that issue ?

For example.. wife beating is very much a part of "Islam" if you just step out of Australia... they are not 'crackpots' for beating their wives.. 'you' are the crackpot for not following Allahs guidance...(to them)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFr0JtsA_c8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk&feature=related

So it must always come down to 'what does a faith teach' or permit.

For wife beating.. the reference is surah 4:34..by all means read it.

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm

To assist you please follow the following reference and see if you get what I mean.(about child concerns)

http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/065.htm

scroll to the section which has 65:4 in the blue background.

Then..scroll to *13 in that discussion. What do you find is 'permitted' because the Quran permits it ?

What is is that "Muslims cannot forbid, because the Quran permits it" ?

Now..this is what the religion teaches....and to this point I've not even mentioned what it is.. but I hope you have the integrity to actually spell it out here.

At least now.. having read it (I hope) you will realize that things are not always what they seem... and the 'widely respected' you suggested before.. may well be based on ignorance rather than information.

The difference between 'widely respected' and 'trashy cult' need only be a few military battles which the once 'trashy cult' happened to win... and now, due to the numbers and power.. it becomes 'widely respected' (or is it 'feared' ?)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 3:33:08 PM
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I note that Boazy sidesteps completely my point about the equivalence of Exclusive Brethren cult schools with Islamic madrassas.

<< I've been trying to avoid this... >>

Too funny. Are you still beating your daughter?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 4:53:28 PM
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Dear CJ.. I can see your are cryyyyying out for a bit of attention there :) so.. I have a few minutes...and I'll shinny down the long rope that leads to the dark place wherein you dwell..and oblige.

//I don't see any difference between a Muslim madrassah and an Exclusive Brethren school.//

err..and you wonder why I ignore you ? ? ?

You don't see the diff, because just about the only thing you know about the Exclusives is from your media driven feeding frenzies.

Strictly speaking...they are 'strict' yes.. and you know the 'rules' before joining. The stories you hear most about are from those who knew the rules and went against them.
The rules and permissions do not include anything which would in the slightest bit allow sexual use and abuse of children, which by now, if you had the genuineness of purpose.. you would realize from my links that other faiths DO in fact permit this. COG being one, and Islam being another.. but they keep it hush hush.. or.. hide some aspects from public consumption...as you would have seen in the vid about the COG.

Before you begin your city wide protest about 'tax concessions' for Churches.. please remember...it might be your uncle..or son..or daughter or friend... who is helped in their time of need by one of those Churches. Or..it might be the orphan in Uganda, or the School in Zambia.. both of which our own fellowship has involvement in.

In our case, we "live" by the skin of our teeth financially, and the only income the fellowship has is what we give...and sometimes that amounts to zero when times are tough.

You have a very sick mind when it comes to 'The Church' and you seem to only view it based on the worst you have heard or seen. Remember those 'tarring all' accusations you hurl at me from the dark side regularly ? :)

Now come...come over to the light ... dwell in it..bathe yourself in that luxurient glow of peace and inner tranquility...
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 7:53:59 PM
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It is true that there is no difference between Exclusive Brethren cult schools and Islamic madrassas.
Even now, around the world, children in Exclusive Brethren cult schools are being brainwashed into believing that God has promised them 72 virgins if they strap on suicide vests and blow up innocent Muslims. These sinister cult schools are being funded by oil-rich Texan evangelists who force their womenfolk to cover their faces in public, won't let them drive in public and encourage their foreign-worker family drivers to suckle at their breasts to establish kinship ties so that they might be let into their houses. I've watched their websites where they publicly hack the heads off apostates and traitors to the cry of "Jesus is Lord" from the crowds of fanatical Exclusive Brethren. Theirs is a hateful ideology and you would do well to beware of the sinister cult of the Exclusive Brethren.
Posted by Proxy, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 9:32:06 PM
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Thanks for spelling it out, Proxy. Even I had no idea that the Exclusive Brethren are as bad as you demonstrate that they are.

Boaz, are you still beating your daughter?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:54:50 PM
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Genuine apologies Pelican, my intent was 'some parents lie to ensure they secure their children a placement in some private schools' as a side note within the context of the comments I had made. I do realise many people are honest when filling out admission applications to private schools. Was not a generalisation. Am broadminded. Best wishes.
Posted by we are unique, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:58:52 PM
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Good Grief *member of the dark side* Morgan...2 cheap, trashy, snide shots in 2 posts.. that must be a record. But..I must not forget where you dwell..must I?

You should start keeping better company. See what happens when you walk in the dark? But don't worry, I'll be a healing balm to your emotional wounds from Proxy's bite... after all..those of the darkness are to be pitied not hated.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 1 July 2010 5:05:18 AM
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So Boazy - beating your wife is bad, but beating your daughter is OK, according to your cult?

Do they teach that in their schools?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 1 July 2010 8:41:38 AM
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C.J. .....I'm still pitying you, and praying for you :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+5&version=NIV

verse 23-25
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 1 July 2010 9:15:06 AM
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Dear oh dear, Boazy. You've been prattling on about Islam allowing wife-beating, which reminded me of when you regaled us with your story about beating your teenage daughter. My point, of course, is that you're being hypocritical as usual.

Now you post a link to some obscure passage from the Bible, which purports to give "Advice About Widows, Elders and Slaves". It may because I tend to think more rationally than you, but I can't see any relevance in that Biblical claptrap, either to the topic of this discussion or to your unnecessary pitying and praying for me.

From the hysterical and paranoid ranting that you do all too often here, I think that I'm far more mentally balanced and far less worried than you are. Are you allowed to pity and pray for yourself within your cult?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 1 July 2010 6:58:49 PM
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Mind you, this cherrypicking from ancient mythology can be quite fun. I clicked through to chapter 6, which starts thus:

<< 1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them. >>

Slavery's OK, as well as child abuse? I think Proxy's right - this appears to be a pretty nasty cult.

Mind you, I can cherrypick some more pleasant stuff from dear old Timothy:

<< Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach >>

No argument here. In fact, I'm settling my stomach with a nice Shiraz right now :)

And I've always quite liked this one:

<< 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. >>

No argument with that either.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 1 July 2010 7:31:16 PM
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Goood CJ :) amazing.. a bit of Biblical input can do wonders for the soul.

The Bible does say "spare the rod and spoil the child" :) but.. anyone who took that any further than basic and fair discipline would be stepping outside of the will of God.

As for my 'family management' techniques.. it's between myself and my Maker and family.. I sure as heck am not going to indulge your sick fantasy of wanting to see all my family laundry hung out so you can shriek "Oh oh..misssssed a spot"

But you seem to do that anyway. So...you get the 'ignore' treatment usually.

Rather than calling me a hypocrite.. why not actually look at the oft presented reference to the Islamic teaching/opinion about 65:4 and give an honest assesment of it ?

Now that would be a real breakthrough.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 2 July 2010 7:05:50 AM
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Boaz, rather than bashing Islam on the basis of some cherrypicked passages from its sacred texts, why don't you acknowledge that the weirdo cult to which you belong is at least as susceptible to the same treatment?

Child abuse, slavery... I bet it wouldn't be too hard to find some biblical passage that justifies wife-beating too. Indeed, don't the Exclusive Brethren make their women wear hijabs and submit to their husbands?

Here's a bit of secular wisdom for you: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 2 July 2010 8:10:34 AM
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Al
CJ is right. It is easy to cherrypick both Koran and Bible to find what we would, in modern times, find to be unacceptable.

"The Bible does say "spare the rod and spoil the child" :) but.. anyone who took that any further than basic and fair discipline would be stepping outside of the will of God."

But how does one acertain the will of God if the lines between abuse and discipline are not defined. Humans interpret and humans are fallible. It is too open to interpretation and allows the abusive to reign without censure.

What we should be concerned about is any group who seek to segregate and keep their followers ignorant, deny access to children and other family members to ex-followers, deny education and information to be able to make informed choices, tax evasion (etc.) regardless of what faith they purport to practice.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 2 July 2010 11:18:44 AM
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The Australian Curriculum Studies Association has produced a
marvellous guide to help make our schools more inclusive. It is
called "Learning from One Another: Bringing Muslim perspectives into
Australian schools" and has the goal of getting teachers to give the
Islamic perspective on:
English (p.6),
Science (p.11),
Maths (p.14),
History (p.22),
Geography (p.33),
Arts (p.42),
Health and Physical Education (p.51),
Economics and Business (p.53),
Values education, civics and citizenship, global education and religious education (p.57).
http://www.nceis.unimelb.edu.au/school-education/resources-teachers/learning-one-another-resources
Lest anyone be concerned, this is not about proselytising.
We're not talking about those fanatical Exclusive Brethren here.
No this is about inclusiveness, tolerance and respect for diversity
from a culture which can teach us so much about these things.
It's so important to convey the wisdom of Mohammed, as transmitted to
him by Allah, to our children while their young minds are open and
receptive. It also provides an invaluable counterbalance to the
hateful and bigoted Christian doctrine that many of these children
are likely indoctrinated into within what should be the safety of their own homes.
I'm sure we can all agree that this is an important step forward for
multiculturalism, diversity, freedom of thought and reason.
This is a wonderful project conducted out of the University of
Melbourne's National Centre for Excellence for Islamic Studies Australia.
I can't be certain but I believe that the Saudi Arabian government is
kindly sponsoring this endeavour along with many such projects all
around the globe. One can only be impressed by their vision for
global harmony, which lies at the root of their endeavours.
Anybody who wishes to make their feelings known on this progressive
new venture can do so at the following site:
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3556:petition-agaist-lfoa&catid=276:fedaral-parliament
Posted by Proxy, Friday, 2 July 2010 1:14:26 PM
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Dear CJ..and Pelly...

Let's subject your reasoning to some scrutiny.

Seems I wasted a whole thread some time back on 'how to interpret documents'..which is something any undergraduate has to know in order to write essays and produce meaningful research.

QUESTIONS.

1/ In the reference I gave.. is it or is it not...the opinion of an Islamic scholar... that the meaning of the passage cited is for then, now and forever?

2/ You say "I" cherry picked ? huh? that suggests I grab a passage which just suits my own twisted agenda and VOILA I have something with which to 'frame' the hapless Muzzies, but which of course.. isn't true. So..is is MY opinion that I am offering or..that of a scholar of Islam?

3/ Given the gravity of the issue at stake...do you reallly in your heart of hearts feel that it's just 'cherry picking' of that nature?

The simplest way to avoid lengthy on going dialogues and diatribes about this issue, is to simply read the material..and become aware of it..and do some reflecting about whether such values are fit and proper for our Australian society.

Pelly..I don't hold out much hope for CJ on this..the poor blighter is pretty far gone down that dark side :)..but you? aaah.. I see hope.

Let's generalize it a bit. "IF... a religion (even mine) teaches that it is fine for an old bloke to
-Marry
-Sexually consummate
-Divorce (after deflowering)

a PRE pubescent child......

Isn't this something we should combat and resist?

I wonder if CJ can muster up a yes no answer ? :) Pelly..I'm sure you can.

If we can agree on that much I'd call it progress of a major kind.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 2 July 2010 3:09:38 PM
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Al
You see hope for mois? I must be doing something wrong. :D

Seriously though, Al you know very well that the example of an old fella marrying a pre-pubescent child is a furphy - who but few among us would see that is appropriate.

You mistake those who defend secularism as apologists for Islam or conversely critics of Christianity.

It is fanaticism and hyprocrisy that is at issue.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 2 July 2010 4:21:11 PM
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Why Thanx Pelly, that was at least resembling a bit of good interaction :)

I'll try to be brief this time and not speak 'at' you (or others)..

The reason I am rather fixated on that particular bit of Islamic belief...(I could choose HEAPS of others..seriously) is the following.

a) It is the opinion of a scholar
b) He is recent.
c) He is making a very forceful declaration as follows:

Forgive me this time please..for quoting the whole paragraph...

//Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.//

The danger is in the last sentence.

I actually do understand why this must seem like nit picking cherry picking and sour grape picking :) to a person who does not live by a 'faith'.. after all...such things don't have any force whatsoever with them... even the Bible.. you for example probably feel you can take it or leave it.. no biggy.. but the person of faith...who's life and heart and mind is based 'on' such texts.. where their mind dwells in those pages.. where they 'live' the adventures of the 'Companions' for Muslims or the Apostles for Christians.. it's really different.

When I read of Paul being stoned at Lystra.... I think of how that is happening right now to Christians in India (Orissa)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaePT2uYMB8 The last part of that vid (which I made :) shows something of it.

I've referred to this b4, but in this vid.. the chilling reality of 'faith' as expressed by the student is spinetingling.. see the question and answer at around 2.30 to end...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE

blessings :) (aaarg..so much for 'short'... moan.)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 2 July 2010 7:02:54 PM
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Boaz: << Seems I wasted a whole thread some time back on 'how to interpret documents'..which is something any undergraduate has to know in order to write essays and produce meaningful research. >>

Er, how would you know that, Boazy? You've never been an undergraduate student, have you?

All you've done is some dodgy 'hermeneutics' subject at 'bible college'. Sorry old son - it's by no means equivalent. There's any number of techniques for analysis of texts, and hermeneutics is but one of them.

Speaking from the "dark side" of a strong (postgraduate) background in textual analysis, I have to say that your persistent, heavily biased approach is about the least likely to arrive at whatever 'truths' are to be gleaned from any document.

P.S. If you were to hit any child in Australia with a "rod", you'd be very likely to be breaking the law. I guess that's why you're lately circumspect at trumpeting your prowess in beating children.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 2 July 2010 7:16:43 PM
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Onya CJ... completely ignored the clear and unambiguous content displayed for all to see in my last post, but then.. to make yourself look completely silly.. you trumpet your academic qualifications as if that somehow transforms your abject failure to equal even pass a primary 6 comprehension test into 'plausable opinion'.

Seems all that work was for nothing mate.

If I was going to demonstrate my irrationality and absurd misundersanding of a document ...and even worse.. the opinion of an established recognized scholar (Maududi) ..the last thing I'd do is tell everyone how many degrees I have ..

Remember..I said I pity you ? not that is x2

If you had a gram or 2 of common sense and a few grams more of sincerity and a few kg less arrogant pride...u'd be able to recognize the following sequence

1/ TEXT....and the basic meaning of the sentences.(In context, both historical and grammatical)

2/ INTERPRETATION by one who speaks the original languages and who has studied the history of the times and opinions of all who formed the nucleus of that particular faith.

What do "I" and my education have to do with 'that' ?

Remember CJ.. SOG 'got it', POIROT 'got it' -clearly... others who read it.. will 'get' it.. if you with your string of apparently useless degrees cannot....then I'd ask for my educational costs to be refunded.. they clearly did you little good.

I report...you decide. (you bring this on yourself mate..sorry)

PELLY.. hope you will forgive this wasteful CJmanagement digression :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 3 July 2010 11:08:14 AM
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Dear Al,

As you know, I did read the link you prescribed for me. And, yes, I understood what the passage was saying. I read it as a (modern) translation from an ancient text.
I think that CJ is just trying to fathom is why you have to keep making the same point, and why you aren't equally diligent in tackling passages from the Jewish or Christian scriptures that promote tenets or behaviours which would not be thought acceptable in modern western society.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 3 July 2010 11:34:37 AM
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Indeed, Poirot. Of course, if we were to apply a little discourse analysis to this thread, we'd see that Boazy, after blatantly attempting to derail the discussion about state-funded religious schools into completely irrelevant topics, has tried to turn it into a platform for his rampant Islamophobia.

He did so by equating Islam with cults like the Children of God, to which I responded by pointing out that the same equation holds true for his own cult, the Exclusive Brethren - which is in receipt of taxpayer funds to run its own religious schools. My position is that no religious schools should be funded from my taxes, whether they be Islamic, mainstream Christian or weirdo sect like the Brethren.

Boaz then reverted to type, focusing on some cherrypicked objectionable passages from Islamic texts. I responded by cherrypicking some of my own from his sacred text, the point being that there isn't much difference between them from an objective point of view. Indeed, that's one of the reasons that no religious schools of any persuasion should receive government funding.

Typically, 'Professor' Boaz then superciliously claimed some kind of expertise in analysis of documents, disingenuously implying that his knowledge of such is superior to that of an undergraduate student. I pointed out his (habitual) dishonesty, to which he over-reacted in his last hysterical post above.

As usual, Boazy doth protest too much, methinks.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 3 July 2010 12:24:51 PM
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Al
Point me to any person of any faith who is inciting hatred, violence, child abuse, wife abuse etc and I will take that on face value, but to point out selective passages from the Koran while ignoring similar passages in the Bible is a counterproductive.

The Bible and Koran are similar in they paint women as unclean, as submitting to the will of their husbands, menstruation is seen as unnatural, chastity is not expected of men.

"If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

and;

"A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. She is to bring two doves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean." Leviticus 12: 1-8

Thankfully I don't know any Christians who actually take this literally. I suspect most Muslims don't really believe that women are unworthy either especially those residing in Western democracies.

As an atheist I am less concerned with what is written (because it was written by 'men' of God without input from women) but rather what is practised and taught.

If the practise is vile I will naturally condemn it without fear or favour.
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 3 July 2010 1:28:19 PM
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Yes AGiR,
I'm dumbfounded too.
Pelican says,
"Point me to any person of any faith who is inciting hatred,
violence, child abuse, wife abuse etc and I will take that on face value",
which is of course what you've just been doing but this has somehow
gone right past Pelican's beak.
"Cast not your pearls before swine" AGiR,
they are totally clueless.
BTW,
I was also tickled by CJ's boast of coming from a
"strong (postgraduate) background in textual analysis".
I think he probably meant textural analysis,
from his background as a graduate fence-post painter.
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 3 July 2010 5:13:58 PM
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Proxy why don't you try coming at posts with an open mind and without any preconceptions. If you do you will see I was in fact acknowledging Al's point about the action rather than the word. But Al keeps pointing us to the texts so I feel I must, in the interests of fairness, seek to understand the Bible's teachings on similar topics.

Sorry it flew past you. At least I won't resort to calling you swine. Pigs are far too cute and actually quite intelligent.

Can't help but notice how you avoided commenting on certain Christian cults who are practising the 'literal' translation of the Bible.

People in glass houses....
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 3 July 2010 6:44:26 PM
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Proxy - back under your rock.

Pelican - there is no point in engaging with Proxy. Under his various pseudonyms here he's proven to be nothing more than a troll.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 3 July 2010 7:21:44 PM
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Thanx Proxy :) but Pelly's beak has not yet pecked me too much...

Dear PELLY I was quite thankful for your last post. I don't mind such a discussion in the slightest.

A couple of accuracy points though... the Deuteronomy passage you cited actually is about punishing a MAN who slanders a woman (please look at it again)...

The actual passage you mean't to quote is from verse 20 onward.
Yes.. it is very very blunt and horrific. The point which you as an atheist will not likely grasp though..is that this has nothing to do with 'Christianity' in terms of example or command or permission.

This is MOST important. I cannot sufficiently emphasize this because it is crucual to understanding this kind of issue. Let me bullet point it.

1/ Deuteronomny was the 'contractual' document for the covenant between Yahweh..God (Suzerain) and Israel (vassal) there were rules by which they were expected to live in the social law side of tribal/national life. This was 'Israel specific'.

2/ No Christian who understands the relationship between the Old Testament and the new.. would ever advocate such 'stoning of non virgins' today.. because there is no theological requirement for it.
For your information, please read the following verses if you don't mind.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+15&version=NIV

Verse 1-29 please please...take the time to read this as it is most crucial for this discussion. If you have questions after.. run them by me and I'll do what I can to engage.

Let me ask please..IF.. you can find a mainstream Christian commentator who DOES advocate such things.. feel free to present it here :)

THAT....is the crucial difference between the issue I've raised re Islam and Christianity.

Now.. (hope ur still reading :).. you said this:

//Point me to any person of any faith who is inciting hatred, violence, child abuse, wife abuse etc//

Please see next post for the response there...kind thanx.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 4 July 2010 8:29:40 AM
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PELLY..continued.

To respond to your request..

//Point me to any person of any faith who is inciting hatred, violence, child abuse, wife abuse etc and I will take that on face value,//

Actually.. that's the whole reason I make a fuss about this type of stuff.. though I've been less direct lately.. trying to move more to discussion as we are having now than the 'shotgun' approach :)

Wife beating...for the here and now:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/its-ok-to-hit-your-wife/story-e6frf7l6-1111118628963

In a recorded lecture entitled "The Keys to a Successful Marriage", delivered to his male worshippers but now broadcast on the internet and viewed by several thousand people, Mr Hamza said Islamic law allowed men to hit their wives as a last resort, but they were not to make them bleed or become bruised.

COMMENT ..this is in perfect harmony with the Quran.. and here this bloke is permitting/promoting it.. in 2009 (actually his lecture was a few years back.. must have been a slow news day for the HeraldSun :)

But the lecture is there... he was not denying his words.. how could he..the Quran permits it in black and white...for all time..(key issue)
Here is the verse
http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm see v 34

There are countless vids on youtube of senior Muslims explaining about this for the here and now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

CHILD ABUSE (they don't cal it that...they call it 'doing what Allah has permitted)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SfUKGp4iMg

go straight to 7:50 to save time...and there...you have it :)

"But it remains legitimate...... if a Muslim man in his 50s even today..wanted to marry a 'young woman' of 9 or 10 .etc"

this man..who was invited to speak to Melbournes Islamic community as a 'respected sheikh' was denied entry..but not on the grounds of this thinking (the vid) but for his alleged connections with groups who might constitute a national security threat.

So...there you have it :) finally.. and my point of course is this.
Should we as a nation be facilitating, appeasing, welcoming, nourishing such a value system which is so darkly disconnected from ours?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 4 July 2010 8:50:52 AM
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Are you still beating your daughter, Boazy?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 4 July 2010 9:06:25 AM
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CHILD ABUSE (they don't call it that...they call it "'family management' techniques").

<< The Bible does say "spare the rod and spoil the child" >>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3754#91816

While we're back to cherrypicking objectionable passages from ancient sacred texts, thanks to Firesnake for posting these on another religion/school thread this morning:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10631#175705

Mind you, unlike the Islamic twaddle, this crap is already on the agenda in 'religious education' in public schools in Australia.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 4 July 2010 9:49:03 AM
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<<Mind you, unlike the Islamic twaddle, this crap is already on the
agenda in 'religious education' in public schools in Australia.>>

Religious education, as we know it, is contained and avoidable.
Proposed Islamic proselytisation seeks to insinuate itself into:
English (p.6),
Science (p.11),
Maths (p.14),
History (p.22),
Geography (p.33),
Arts (p.42),
Health and Physical Education (p.51),
Economics and Business (p.53),
Values education, civics and citizenship, global education and religious education (p.57).
http://www.nceis.unimelb.edu.au/school-education/resources-teachers/learning-one-another-resources

If you actually object to children being indoctrinated into religious dogma, sign the petition at:

http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3556:petition-agaist-lfoa&catid=276:fedaral-parliament
Posted by Proxy, Sunday, 4 July 2010 10:47:29 AM
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Al
"Let me ask please..IF.. you can find a mainstream Christian commentator who DOES advocate such things.. feel free to present it here :)"

That is my point exactly Al. The issue I have with you and Proxy is the tendency to quote objectionable passages from the Koran as proof of Islam's 'inherent evil' without recognition that most Muslims in Australia are not pushing for mistreatment of women/children or for Jihad.

We could spend days quoting passages from the Bible and Koran in a tit-for-tat exercise but it does not get us anywhere.

When others on OLO have pointed out the Catholic Church being remiss in treatment of child abuse cases you and Proxy become defensive about Christianity (only natural I suppose) when the condemnation has been about the behaviour or lack of action. One of you actually labelled it as an 'attack on Christianity'. Muslims must feel the same way when views such as yours are expressed.

It would be naive to be unaware of some of the more militant elements of Islam in Australia, but we have laws that deal with criminal acts including criminal acts committed by Christians or Atheists.

It would be also naive to ignore some of the more fundamentalist Christian groups like a few who come out with nonsense like blaming Abortion Laws for the Victorian bushfires. Who with commonsense and a modicum of intelligence believe a purportedley good God would be instrumental in killing a whole horde of innocent people as punishment for another's 'sin'.

Simply put, it is the militants we should be concerned, regardless of which religion they are pushing.

I am not sure I can make it any clearer. ie. Condemn the act not the religion unless the religion itself is uniformly condoning and promoting criminal activity. Al-Quaida does not represent Islam just as Christian Voice in the UK or Scientology does not represent all Christians.

PS: My intention is not to peck you with my beak but to engage in polite discussions wherever possible
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 4 July 2010 11:42:54 AM
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Hi Pelly

glad 2C you are still hanging in here :)

//The issue I have with you and Proxy is the tendency to quote objectionable passages from the Koran as proof of Islam's 'inherent evil' without recognition that most Muslims in Australia are not pushing for mistreatment of women/children or for Jihad.//

Pelly.. didn't you notice my last response was showing how these ideas are actually 'mainstream'? Philips was invited to share his views by representatives of mainstream_Melbourne_Islam.

I do see your point.. really.. but I must correct one thing you said..

"When others on OLO have pointed out the Catholic Church being remiss in treatment of child abuse cases you and Proxy become defensive about Christianity "

I'd love you to show me where I've been 'defensive' of child abuse in the Catholic church.. au contraire...I don't know what Proxy's done but in my case I always refer the matter to scripture.. and Jesus unambiguous condemnation of such things.

There is nothing to 'defend'..I just join with my Lords own voice....it is vile and horrible and in no way reflects HIS divine standard.

Do you not see where this is the huge difference? (Between Islam and Christianity?)

Islam.. by it's holy book and by the informed opinion of respected scholars.. actually permits this stuff.

I repeat if I may.."show me" a Christian scholar of similar standing as Philips...who actually advocates or offers a rationization for child sexual abuse..

They simply don't exist. Unless you wish to quote "Moses Berg" of Children of God infamy.,...yuk. His 'rationlization' by the way is "we must love each other" oh yeah...RIGGGGGGGHT.

If you want to call the Coburg ISSNA 'fanatics' or 'extremists'.. they might disagree..but the one time I visited the place I interviewed a FEMALE there casually on such matters and she was quite open about her support for 'old marrying young'....good for my age bracket but not so good for her 6 yr old daughter wouldn't u say ?

Don't hate anyone... that's not the point. It is however about good public policy ..which involves immigration..schools/education and the such like.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 4 July 2010 2:19:25 PM
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Dear Poirot...sorry I haven't specifically addressed your concerns yet.

You ask:

I think that CJ is just trying to fathom is why you have to keep making the same point, and why you aren't equally diligent in tackling passages from the Jewish or Christian scriptures that promote tenets or behaviours which would not be thought acceptable in modern western society.

We can probably summarize these as "not" the typical left wing agenda.

No Abortion
No sex outside marriage
No Homosexual behavior
No Child abuse.
No Extreme environmentalism
No Extreme animal 'rights'

I'd have to scratch around for specific verses for all those, but the gay issue and child abuse is very clear. (this is CJ's queue to call me a hypocrite :)

I suggest that the main issue's of contention which 'modern' society finds objectionable with Christianity is not the PERMITTED behavior but the non permitted.

Keep up the good work.. (on me:) I at least 'feel' more mellow than in the past ....
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 4 July 2010 8:34:25 PM
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Boazy: << No Abortion
No sex outside marriage
No Homosexual behavior
No Child abuse.
No Extreme environmentalism
No Extreme animal 'rights'

I'd have to scratch around for specific verses for all those, but the gay issue and child abuse is very clear. (this is CJ's queue to call me a hypocrite :) >>

Nope. This is where I say put up or shut up.

Given your insistence that your sacred texts are to be taken literally, I think it's incumbent on you to back up every one of those apparent proscriptions by reference to biblical text.

Off you go. I look forward to your report :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 4 July 2010 9:21:18 PM
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I seem to recall that this topic by *Ifti* has been thrashed out on more than one occasion in this place, and would again merely state for the record my current position, which is that I am of the view that children ought be afforded the right not to be indoctrinated.

Accordingly, I would ban religious schools entirely and also religious education, except in the form of a unit of "comparative religion, philosophy and ethics in a modern multicultural Australia," or something similar.

..

The following article relates to a fermenting, religious flash point in Indonesia currently, and thought that I would offer it up for consideration:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/07/03/islamists-eye-proselytizing-christians.html

" ... Islamists eye proselytizing Christians
The Associated Press, Bekasi, West Java |
Sat, 07/03/2010 12:25 PM | National

A banner with a picture of a young, bespectacled Christian man is draped in front of the mosque, a fiery noose around his neck and the words: "This man deserves the death penalty!" ... "

Oh, a word of caution, there are some comments following the article by readers that you all may care to avoid as they appear not to have been moderated to the same standards as held in this place.
Posted by DreamOn, Monday, 5 July 2010 2:25:42 PM
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On a positive note, we bottled my latest wine home brew this morning.

Made from 2 kilos of "sticky rice" and 4lts of Indo Aqua a yield of 9 clean 650 mL bottles was generated.

Fermented over a period of approximately 14 days in an air conditioned room, I am in particular looking forward to trying this batch later this evening as unlike previous batches, this one is fermented with a "new" yeast, which I obtained from "Brew Craft" in Perth, Osborne Park when I was last in town:

(and loved the cold weather, and was walking about in a sarong for 6 days before my core temp came down and I decided to put a tracky on)

VINTNER'S HARVEST
(premium wine making products)
PREMIUM WINE MAKING YEASTS

CL23 Saccharomyces Bayanus - Ideal for crisp, fresh dry white/blush and all sparkling wines. Also the best strain for high alcohol tolerance.

and samples to date have demonstrated quite a different range of tastes and flavors .. mmmm!

No 5 year storage + second fermentation process, but rather post in the glass bottle pasteurisation for a prolonged radiant effect to quieten the yeasties down, into the fridge and then upon being chilled, into it.

The flavors do noticeably mature in the first couple of weeks though, and of course, no artificial colours, flavors or preservatives used (and that makes a notable difference, including to the hangover effect if one overly indulges)

Materials cost of production excluding labour comes in currently at around 75c per bottle, which is far preferable to paying $AU50 for a bottle of imported Australian wine which you otherwise wouldn't pay $AU10 for in Australia.

..

And PrayTell *Brother BoazY* are you of the real mccoy or rather the grape juice variety when it comes to communion and the taking of bread and wine?
Posted by DreamOn, Monday, 5 July 2010 2:34:06 PM
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DreamOn,
You have to understand that these Islamists recognise that
Christianity is a religion of hate, and not a religion of peace like Islam.
Therefore they have to kill the Christians to prevent peace-loving
Muslims in Indonesia being subjected to the hateful Christian
message, possibly being brought under its evil spell and turned into
murdering haters.
It's the only reasonable path for them to take.

Furthermore, their actions are doctrinally justified by the Koran:
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).

The Islamists are only trying to stop the hate.
You should respect them for that.
More importantly, you should respect the faith which teaches them how
to go about this important task.
It's all set out clearly in their Holy Book.
And who are we to argue with its divine and perfect message?
Posted by Proxy, Monday, 5 July 2010 4:26:10 PM
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Hi Dreamy.. as for me I'm easy either way. Not being an alchoholic it's just a bit strong, but not dangerous (real thing)

But YOU ? :) U boozer you :)

Poor PROXY.. in the sin bin for a month.. OLO will now become one borrrring place :(

OH dear CJ.. you are such a slave driver.. *sigh*

No sex outside marriage

http://www.layhands.com/IsPremaritalSexASin.htm more verses than you can poke a stick at CJ plus a wholllllleeee lot of etymology and commentary.

No Homosexual behavior Lev 18 but a new testament reference which is quite unambiguous is 1 Cor 6:9ff

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were.

Notice CJ..in terms of hermeneutics/interpretation, this is in the form of a declaration.. easy stuff.

No Child abuse.

http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18429/1671/4 gazillions of verses.

No Extreme environmentalism

Pslam 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

This is a bit indirect..why would we abuse that which declares the Glory of God ?

No Extreme animal 'rights' (an easy one)

Romans 1: 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

"Extreme" animal rights elevates created things...creatures to the level of 'divinities' (cf Hinduism)

and there I went :)

PS...where the heck is Pericles ? ? ? I miss the eloquent abuse.(advances my creative writing skills)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 5 July 2010 5:20:01 PM
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