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The Forum > General Discussion > Humanitarian crisis

Humanitarian crisis

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Here are ten population groups listed in ALPHABETICAL order:

(1) African-Americans

(2) Australian Aborigines

(3) Australians (Average for whole country)

(4) Egyptians

(5) Gazans

(6) Iranians

(7) Jordanians

(8) Saudi Arabians

(9) Turks

(10) US (whole country)

Each bracket below shows the data for one of the ten groups. The first number in the bracket shows male life expectancy, the second number female life expectancy and the third number infant mortality in deaths per thousand live births.

I've randomised the order of the brackets so that they are NOT in the same order as the list of population groups above.

Can you spot the humanitarian crisis?

Match the brackets with the list of population groups to spot the humanitarian crisis.


(79.3, 84.3, 4.7) (This group has male life expectancy of 79.3 years, female life expectancy of 84.3 years and infant mortality of 4.7 per thousand births)

(70.0, 76.9, 13.6)

(78.6, 81.3, 17.0)

(72.1, 75.4, 17.7)

(59.4, 64.8, 17.0)

(75.8, 80.8, 6.1)

(69.8, 75.1, 25.0)

(70.4, 74.2, 24.8)

(69.9, 73.0, 34.4)

(74.4, 78.7, 11.2)
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:22:24 PM
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*ouch* :) steven....too much brain use so early... I'll just *wave* to you.."hi"
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 6:01:45 AM
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OK, here is the key:

Each series of bracketed numbers below provides selected data for each of the ten groups listed below. The first number shows male life expectancy, the second number female life expectancy and the third number infant mortality in deaths per thousand live births.

African American (70.0, 76.9, 13.6)
Australia (79.3, 84.3, 4.7)
Australian Aborigine (59.4,64.8, 17.0)
Egyptians (69.8, 75.1, 25.0)
Gazans (72.1, 75.4, 17.7)
Iranians (69.9, 73.0, 34.4)
Jordanians (78.6, 81.3, 17.0)
Saudis (74.4, 78.7, 11.2)
Turks (70.4, 74.2, 24.8)
US (75.8, 80.8, 6.1 )

A few comments:

There is a genuine humanitarian crisis among Australian Aborigines. On average their lifespan is 12 years less than those of Gazans and a full two DECADES less than the Australian average.

Gazans have an average lifespan that is similar to African Americans but a slightly higher infant mortality rate.

Despite spending one dollar in six on healthcare, life expectancy in the US is about the same as in Jordan! However infant mortality is lower.

Iran's oil wealth does not show up in these statistics. They have a shorter average lifespan than Gazans and DOUBLE the infant mortality rate. Perhaps a little less spending on weapons for Hizbullah and Hamas and a little more on healthcare is indicated.

Life expectancy in Gaza is similar to that in Turkey but with a much lower infant mortality rate. Perhaps the Turkish "humanitarians" who were aboard the flotilla bringing supplies to Gaza would now consider working to save the lives of Turkish babies.

Gaza used to be part of Egypt. Interestingly the numbers for Gaza are marginally better than those for Egypt.

On the whole Gazans experience a life expectancy and infant mortality rate that is similar to or slightly better than the countries whose "humanitarians" are attempting to "help" them.

The life expectancy and infant mortality rates of AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINES is the REAL shocker.

The numbers for African Americans don't look too good either
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 8:30:19 AM
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This approach to statistics displays racial prejudices of analysts for presentation to direct reader interpretations towards racist conclusions.

Next step, directing readers towards accepting racist solutions.

Differences between these groups relate to their environments, particularly their poverty, far more than their racial identifications.

Poverty a greater influence on acquired life skills than ethnicity.

Poverty provides lives of struggle to survive day to day.

Wealth provides lives of choice, better choices available and often adopted.

Racial identification tag (IMHO wrongfully) attached to people who after long time living within particular environments, appear consequently aquire some biological adaptations for better survival within their phsyical environments.

Human adaptation, our changes of behavior to survive particular environments, includes also our cultural changes - our learning.

Primary determinant of life expectancy both in and between cultural groups is personal lifestyle within environment - both social environment and physical environment.

Debate interesting, particularly with recently presented ideas on SBS TWO (exBBC) concerning inherited cultural attitudes.

The Ghost in Your Genes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml

- - - start cut and paste- - -

The scientists who believe your genes are shaped in part by your
ancestors' life experiences.

Biology stands on the brink of a shift in the understanding of
inheritance. The discovery of epigenetics – hidden influences upon the
genes – could affect every aspect of our lives.

At the heart of this new field is a simple but contentious idea – that
genes have a 'memory'. That the lives of your grandparents – the air
they breathed, the food they ate, even the things they saw – can
directly affect you, decades later, despite your never experiencing
these things yourself. And that what you do in your lifetime could in
turn affect your grandchildren.

- - - end cut and paste- - -

Do go read the rest !

.
Posted by polpak, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 10:10:43 AM
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polpak,

Any racism in this post exists entirely in your mind.

I saw The Ghost in your Genes when it was broadcast on ABC. It is well worth watching.

But that does not detract from the existence of a shocking humanitarian crisis as indicated by the fact that Aborigines die on average two decades before other Australians and 12 years younger than Gazans. They also suffer from an infant mortality rate almost three times higher than the rest of Ausralia.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 10:24:06 AM
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Hmmm. How can this be explained in truth without Political Correctness getting in the way of the truth.

African American (70.0, 76.9, 13.6) Crack heads, Murder
Australia (79.3, 84.3, 4.7) Great lifestyle
Australian Aborigine (59.4,64.8, 17.0) Booze, petrol, Living in filth
Egyptians (69.8, 75.1, 25.0) Road accidents, L.i.f
Gazans (72.1, 75.4, 17.7) Terrorists, Suicide bombers, Rocket firers
Iranians (69.9, 73.0, 34.4) Sharia Hangings, Government sanctioned murders, Terriosts, Suicide bombers, L.i.f
Jordanians (78.6, 81.3, 17.0) Staying nutral, grumbling a lot
Saudis (74.4, 78.7, 11.2) Terrorists, L.i.f.
Turks (70.4, 74.2, 24.8) Terrorists, Suicide bombers, L.i.f
US (75.8, 80.8, 6.1 ) Mass Shootings, Murder, War

Does that answer the question?
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 1:51:35 PM
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Steven, you know no-one here is going to take a scrap of notice of actual facts mate.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 11:37:43 PM
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Steven....what was/is your actual point here ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 24 June 2010 7:09:02 AM
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My actual point is that there is a "humanitarian crisis" - to use one of the punditocracy's favourite buzz phrases - in Aboriginal Australia.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 24 June 2010 7:49:24 AM
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jayb, let me paint a picture:

You wake up in the morning, generally early given there are 20-odd people, including babies, living in a tin shed with a concrete floor...

That tin shed by the way, was built by shonky contractors and cost the taxpayer the same amount as a waterfront property in Sydney. It has no glass/plastic windows, it is eternally dusty due to the fact that water is limited and grass is virtually unheard of. The other problem, the amount of asbestos dust lying in the ground (yet to be dealt with, wait for it, it will be huge).

Electricity supply is patchy, so the food is limited to Hamper & Damper (which cost several times more than they do in the City - so it is all that can be afforded). Vegetables are scant, quite frankly, not much keeps well with patchy electricity and 40+C heat in a tin shed (suprisingly enough).

There is no television because there is no reception and the DVD player got broken when Uncle & Aunty got drunk last time the hot-grog turned up.

You go for a walk, you don't belong to one of the "lucky" families who control the Council, so you don't have a job, there is nothing to do, so you get bored and go meet up with your mates...

Trouble is, you didn't pay someone back for the couple of beers you had last time, which given a carton costs $120, means you owe quite a bit and you can't pay it back (they don't want money, they want grog & you don't have any), so you get a good flogging after getting there.

Some idiot calls the police, so the other person gets arrested and now blames you for it... So their uncle hits you across the scone with a star-picket for getting his nephew arrested. Next thing you are in an understaffed clinic, where the nurse gives you 2 panadol and a glass of bore water and sends you home.

That is what life on a community is like, next time think before you speak
Posted by Custard, Thursday, 24 June 2010 11:55:45 AM
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Custard, let me paint a picture:

I know that picture well. I come from Nth Qld & I know Palm Is. well. I've been there & other remote communities as a guest. Yes, you are right that's exactly how it is in these remote communities. Thank you, Custard.

They take no responsibility for the smashed buildings, the maintainance of their houses or amenities, & the rubbish around their homes or filth in the streets.

This is why I am an advocate of removing all 21st century, modern convienences, tools, clothing, booze, etc from these remote Aboriginal communities. These people lived & survived extremely well until the arrival of modern man destroyed their culture. Therefore in order to preserve their culture, their original way of life, modern man MUST remove himself from their presence totally & they MUST not have any contact with modern man.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 24 June 2010 1:23:02 PM
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Why should they? The riots are real and they take place because of the entrenched racism in the Police, the Judiciary, etc. I still haven't seen any mention on here of the killing in the NT by the Cop, who was then investigated by NT Police (He deliberately fired directly into a crowd of people), who ensured he was not charged until after 2 months had elapsed. As a consequence the case was thrown out, why? Because in the Police Administration Act NT he had to be charged inside 2 months or not at all.

If that happened to me or my family? Would I take responsibility for housing? No. I would make like the Taliban and take out whatever police officer(s) I could get at with whatever weapons I could get/make/fashion. The fact they haven't done so YET, is due to the fact that the "supposed" firebrands, like Ms Smallwoood, are weak as p1ss.

Go to Doomadgee, go to the Pitjantjarra lands... See the Watchhouses with warning signs, saying "Enter at own risk, this building contains asbestos" (explain to me how you enter a watchhouse at own risk?), see the schools with the same signs... Then tell me how keeping people in 3rd world conditions is assisting them in any way...

As to self-worth, explain to me, how that is to be built up with no belief in the Rule of Law? Without that, they our outside society, with no way in (Go read Locke/Hobbes), why would anyone make an effort then mate? How do you teach someone to care for things when nobody is made to answer if they smash/destroy them? If you know what you say, then you are a cold hearted mongrel, if you honestly think it is by choice.

Either that or you are a Cop, they are the only people who ever get to Palm Island and make no effort to divine the causes of the problems. Alcohol fueled violence, absolute lawlessness, murders committed on a whim, yeah, lovely place... Why do you think that is?
Posted by Custard, Thursday, 24 June 2010 7:50:36 PM
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This is a very depressing thread.

polpak sees "racism" in a simple statement of the facts.

Custard and Jayb argue about - well I don;t even understand what point they're trying to make.

Guys, on average Aborigines die two DECADES younger than non-Aboriginal Australians. Does no one feel even a slight sense of SHAME about this?

Most people here would say there was a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza. They are capable of getting quite indignant about it.

But Gazans on average outlive Aborigines by more than a DECADE.

Realistically no one in Australia can do much about Gaza. But surely it is within our power to do SOMETHING to help Aboriginal Australia.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 24 June 2010 7:59:46 PM
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Actually, who were you a guest of? You know the picture, what do you think makes it like that? How could people live in such filth? Well? Come on... Is it because of the fact that the rubbish may or may not be picked up from one week to the next? That bins left full where there are so many dogs are going to be knocked over?

As to why they should feel any responsibility for anything? Would you? If you LIVED there, as opposed to visiting, WOULD YOU? For how long? How long do you have to keep a human being in such conditions before they no longer notice them or even try to fix them?

As you have been there, you too will have noticed the air of absolute disinterest. The hopelessness pervading the entirety of some areas is just that, hopelessness. Literally, the inhabitants are past the point at which all hope is abandoned and you advocate what? And the inhabitants are animals? What would that make you mate?

Or do you honestly believe the crap you just spouted? Essentially something to do with Phrenology or something? Or is it that you have lost all hope of anything changing too? I've come close, I must admit, but I've seen people achieve it, granted with a LOT of work. Can you live with the knowledge you have, while trying to sink any effort to bring about change? Honestly? I'm interested to know, we've both seen the same things, how is it you see no hope and don't care? Is it a lack of empathy or a lack of decency?

It may suprise you, but it is only 200 years ago Dickens saw the same in London, given your approach, it would still be there. The problems are too hard, just give up - yet you regard yourself as superior to those that live in the communities and have done the same?
Posted by Custard, Thursday, 24 June 2010 8:04:27 PM
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Dear stevenlmeyer,

You are of course correct, the statistics of the health outcomes of our rural indigenous citizens are indeed a disgrace. We should all be ashamed and need to continue to press our government to do much better in 'closing the gap'.

Perhaps we could take some lessons from Hamas. From the CIA fact book from where you appear to have drawn your figures Hama's coming to power saw a quite incredible drop in infant mortality rates despite the sanctions and their resulting deprivations.

The rate had been falling at a little over 2% per annum in the preceding 6 years but in their first year in power Hamas dropped the rate by 13.16%. The following year it no where near as large but it was still an impressive 3.42% and this last year 3.67% was the figure.

This was despite the attacks from Israel which the WHO says resulted in “Fifteen of the 27 hospitals were damaged during the three-week assault, and at least 43 primary health centres were damaged or destroyed (24 were fully or partly closed during the three weeks of attacks). Al Quds Hospital was heavily damaged, with one ward totally destroyed and other areas partly destroyed." ... "A total of 16 health services staff were killed and 25 injured in the line of duty, and 29 ambulances were damaged or destroyed.”

and

“Before the crisis 80% of the water supplied in the Gaza Strip did not meet WHO standards for drinking. During the attacks the water network was severely damaged, and as a result of damage to the waste treatment system the aquifer has been contaminated.”

What they have been able to achieve on infant mortality rates has been remarkable under the circumstances and could possibly be an inspiration to Australians wanting to improve things in our own back yard.

This could be a reason the population of Gaza voted them in in the first place.

What do you think?
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 26 June 2010 12:15:40 AM
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csteele

What do I think?

I think on THIS thread we should focus on the unutterably DISGRACEFUL humanitarian crisis that exists in Australia.

If you are so minded you could start a separate thread extolling the virtues of Hamas. Given the complete lack of interest - other than lip service - in Aboriginal welfare in Australia that will probably attract more attention.

In any case I doubt that basics like an absence of potable water is the cause of the HORRIFIC Aboriginal mortality statistics.

So, do you have anything practical to say about the topic of THIS thread?
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 26 June 2010 12:32:20 AM
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Hmmm csteele,

I thought not.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 26 June 2010 11:07:55 AM
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The "double-standard", that a white Australian visiting the place is entitled to regard the situation as hopeless, because the people who have lived there have come to accept the same, is a valid judgment upon which to act is incredible.

If a visitor is so easily and completely convinced of the hopelessness of the position, please inform me how in gods name the inhabitants are to blame for feeling the same sense of apathy? For it is certain that the majority of them have existed in that self-same environment for quite some considerable time more than the "casual" visitor.

How do we change things? Look very closely at what has and hasn't worked in the past. Look where the failure is, for mine, it is the fact that we continue to deal with the same self-interested, entirely corrupt and corrupting groups as "we" always have. Therefore it matters not one whit how much money is thrown at the problem, it will be absorbed like a sponge by these bloated leaches.

Until there is a complete and merciless audit of the financial position and the underlying fraudulent conduct (with ACTUAL JAIL TERMS being handed down), until there is a fundamental shift in Government attitudes, from wanting to deal with those it is "easy and quick" to deal with, to dealing with those who may be a little more intransigent and difficult, but honest. To this I would add, there MUST be a Royal Commission into the various practices that have taken place for years, where Public Servants have knowingly acted to dishonestly improve the position of these "administrators", whether by sheltering them from prosecution or by ensuring that they receive benefits over and above those they are entitled to.

The corruption and nepotism are the keys, break that and you break the cycle that entraps whole regions of this country to continued crime, poverty, malnutrition and the rest. The difference it makes will be far greater than what that money buys directly, it will also signal that there is now hope for the future.
Posted by Custard, Saturday, 26 June 2010 11:46:19 AM
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Dear stevenlmeyer,

With respect I think you have a considerable amount of cheek telling me to focus on the health issues facing our indigenous citizens rather than mentioning Hamas. Can I draw your attention to your post where you commented on the figures you had provided. The very examples you gave were Australia, America and then six Middle eastern countries. You then went on to refer to Gaza or Gazans three times as often as you did Australian Aborigines.

In the same post we got gratuitous statements like “Perhaps a little less spending on weapons for Hizbullah (sic) and Hamas and a little more on healthcare is indicated.”

You then berate me for walking through the door you had opened. Was this a race to wave your MEYER'S FIRST RULE under our noses?

You state;

“I think on THIS thread we should focus on the unutterably DISGRACEFUL humanitarian crisis that exists in Australia.”

Setting aside the obvious hypocrisy that sounds pretty good to me but I will note that according to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's (Hamas) work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".

That type of focus does bring results.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 26 June 2010 11:54:24 AM
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Cont.

I also note the statistic quoted by Kevin Rudd in his listing of the achievements he was most proud of. He told of his deep concern that rural Australians were three times more likely to succumb to cancer within five years of diagnosis than their urban counterparts. That was why he was so committed to delivering on the regional cancer centres.

Why not fund six substantial teaching hospitals in places like Broome and Katherine, subsidise the Hecs debt of those prepared to move there to learn and have a real commitment to accelerating the number of indigenous students able to qualify for a place.

This would have an immediate impact on health statistics plus give long term benefits in the futures of young indigenous health care workers and their communities.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 26 June 2010 11:56:54 AM
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As to the usual suspects coming in here and taking the same stance they always do, that Australia is blameless and really Israel is the one to watch, the problem here is mate, it is not Israel's job to ensure the purification of drinking water for the Gaza Strip, I have argued many times it is not Israel's position to even PROVIDE water to the Gaza Strip (which given they are being crucified for the cleanliness of the same - a bit rich - is probably the best solution, no water = no criticism in a VERY short period of time, 2-3 days at a guess, a week at best, turn the electricity off too).

The residents of Gaza are supposedly provided for by their Government, which has made no attempt to desalinate water that one might have expected (given it would provide decent water, JOBS and infrastructure and cost nothing - given that if they asked I'm sure they'd get the funding). Put simply, they are NOT ISRAELI CITIZENS.

The residents of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Communities are Australian Citizens and as such, the burden of ensuring that they are properly administered is the business of the Australian Government and the failures in that regard are also owned by the same. The horrific statistics are OUR statistics. We are responsible for them, like it or not. If Australian citizens were HALF as interested as what is happening in our OWN COUNTRY, then this would not have to be brought up.

Or using your logic, perhaps we should prevail upon our larger neighbor to the North to provide aid, assistance, electricity, potable water and all the rest of it to our ATSI Communities? Oh no, hang on, we couldn't do that could we? They are Muslim after all, we could hardly expect them to live up to what we require of others (a standard we don't even hold ourselves to might I add)...
Posted by Custard, Saturday, 26 June 2010 12:05:45 PM
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What we are facing is an issue that will be bought upon the heads of our children. The actual mortality rates mentioned in the statistics provided by Steven here don't take into account the effect that petrol sniffing will have in the immediate future (which will see about 10-20 years taken off the life-expectancy of people in certain areas).

Bully for Hamas, they are actually taking the time (or they WERE, they don't appear to be doing anywhere near as much lately) to care for their electorate. One thing I will draw people's attention to, is that Hamas DID REMOVE THE CORRUPT AND CORRUPTING INFLUENCES from their communities (NB The Palestinian Authority which is notebly corrupt, even for the region). That allowed them to improve a lot of things, but they have failed to provide work for their people, a supply of potable water (independent of Israel), a supply of basic foodstuffs (which, if the Israelis could grow in the same area (and they did), can be grown in that area).

I will admit however, they did take the first step that we have failed to take. They did implement a rigorous set of checks and balances on the money, which is a NOTABLE achievement for the area. That they have failed to build infrastructure and jobs, is perhaps less of an accidental failure, than a deliberate political ploy (after all, there'd not be the International outcry if there was full employment now, would there?).

We have to follow their lead in that respect however, get rid of the corruption, but then we have to build the infrastructure and train the locals to operate it appropriately, thus providing employment. Providing employment, breaks the welfare cycle, allowing for major improvements. We must do so, it is OUR responsibility. As I have said elsewhere, if we can't do it here, we are kidding ourselves if we think we can achieve it in Afghanistan. If we can pull it off here, then we CAN do so in Afghanistan, fundamentally changing the lives of all involved.
Posted by Custard, Saturday, 26 June 2010 12:23:57 PM
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csteele

I'm not sure that teaching hospitals would help.

I also doubt that the HORRIFIC Aboriginal mortality stats have much to do with substandard drinking water or a lack of clinics.

But I do think you have a point.

My own feeling is that rural aboriginal settlements are a sort of Gaza strip without the blockade. The best thing that could happen is to encourage Aboriginals to move to towns where the jobs and educational opportunities are. That does NOT mean Aborigines have to lose their culture anymore than Jews living in cities lose their culture. It does mean that if Aborigines want to keep their culture they have to learn to adapt it just as Jews have had to and Muslims are going to have to.

However I also think a case can be made for paying REPARATIONS to Aborigines.

Note: Payments made to individual Aborigines. Not to some trust that gets looted by rent seekers.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 26 June 2010 2:52:06 PM
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There is a lot that is not politically correct to report. For example, the very young age of mothers contributes to the low birth weight of babies and their poor nutrition. Another cause of infant illness and death is the lack of the use of soap and water before preparing meals, after changing infants and after going to the toilet. Then there is (say) the deafness of children caused by the habit of cleaning ears with twigs.

As has been mentioned previously, the World Health Organisation has a simple, available program that can easily be applied here to overcome the vast majority of these problems.

What continues to prevent that from happening and millions of taxpayers money to be wasted is a very good question, but the answer is not 'racism', 'discrimination' nor lack of goodwill by ordinary Australians.
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 26 June 2010 3:52:07 PM
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Dear stevenlmeyer,

Rudd did not say all cancer sufferers should come and live in the big cities for treatment rather he saw a government responsibility to take services to them. Why is this different?

I think if the Western world can accommodate the wishes of European and other Jewry to identify so strongly with the land of Palestine as being an integral part of their survival and culture (despite the very real impacts on the lives of Jews previously living throughout the Middle East, Palestinians, and on global security), then Australia should be able to accommodate our own indigenous citizen's strong connection to their land.

We should note that although positions within the Aboriginal Health Worker sector are well patronised by indigenous people, nursing and medical degrees are not.

A study looking into this reluctance to progress their qualifications found that ”barriers to continuing study or career advancement faced by AHWs and AHW students could be categorized around three core issues: support; infrastructure; and marketing.” All would be to a large degree addressed by what I have proposed.

The support was not just family but also employer willingness to allow study leave. I see teaching hospitals as being more likely to show understanding toward this issue and have the capacity to address another primary factor which was the lack of childcare.

Infrastructure concerns around distance education and access to internet and library facilities would be fixed while the marketing of the opportunities available would be greatly enhanced by having these facilities in close proximity.

So for me the best thing that could happen is for the government to move educational and job opportunities to where our indigenous Australians live.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 26 June 2010 4:51:32 PM
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So for me the best thing that could happen is for the government to move educational and job opportunities to where our indigenous Australians live.
csteele,
this has been done for a long time & is being done now. The challenge is to induce the young to take up the offer. If you know how to do this you'll be a rich man over night so to speak.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 27 June 2010 7:09:33 AM
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individual, csteele,

This is cloud cuckooland stuff. There is a reason people all over the world are migrating to cities. It's called OPPORTUNITY.

You cannot replicate in the back of beyond the sorts of opportunities that are available in even a moderate size city.

The Aboriginal settlements are not viable. Period.

However, as I said in previous posts, I do think there is a case for paying reparations to Aborigines.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 27 June 2010 8:20:24 AM
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Stevenlmeyer,

Re: "However, as I said in previous posts, I do think there is a case for paying reparations to Aborigines."

Gee Steven, I thought we had already been doing that--leastways for the past 30-40 years!
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:01:24 AM
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Stevenlmeyer,
nothing personal but I sense a distinct lack of experience in your comment. If you knew how many opportunities are being offered you'd unquestionably change your opinion. Let me put it this way, if I were given those opportunities I'd be the happiest bloke on the planet.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:28:46 AM
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Dear stevenlmeyer,

You may need to remind me again, what is the FOCUS?

I thought it was about better health outcomes not questions about the economic viability of communities.

Hell putting aside the last decade Western Australia has only just started paying its way. It had been subsidised by the Eastern States for over 100 years and we are still paying a hefty price to keep the NT afloat.

Where was the call for them to be shut down and moved to the East?

Dear Individual,

In an effort to paraphrase steven I may have given the wrong impression of what the most important thing is. It is of course to see a dramatic reduction of horrific health outcomes that plague some of our rural indigenous citizens. The other things I listed should be seen as secondary benefits.

I'm not sure it is rocket science.

“We welcome any real support for indigenous health and welfare and even two police will assist, but the Howard Government declared an emergency at our community over two years ago - when they appointed an administrator to our health clinic - and since then we have been without a doctor, we have less health workers, our council has been sacked all our youth and health programmes have been cut.”

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/25/1971763.htm
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 27 June 2010 5:03:56 PM
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The "spin" put out by the leaders of the Mutitjulu community (and the other communities in the area) is amazing. There is a huge spike in STD's simply due to the fact that there are 10-12 year old girls letting themselves be used as playthings for a 600mL coke bottle full of unleaded petrol. Go down the road from Mt Ebeneezer, some 400-500km and you'll hit the Pitjantjarra Lands, where the same thing happens even more regularly as petrol has to be bought in from several hundred kms away (and the prices are amazing - the local stores only sell avgas which doesn't give the high).

As to the "spike" being due to the "number" of people using the clinic, no way, no how... Anyone who is gonna travel that far to use a clinic will go the same distance further and go to Coober Pedy/Alice Springs and use the hospital (discount airfares for community residents).

Oh hang on, were you arguing that young girls aren't subjected to sex assaults (legally sanctioned ones at that) in the NT? Here is an article on the same (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/arts/culture-of-denial/story-e6frg8px-1111113048370), trouble is, that most people don't WANT to believe it (well, I don't want to believe it either, having witnessed it, I'm unable to ignore it).

The cover-up that came of that was amazing, someone had the guts to spill the beans and it was swept under the carpet by the same QC who didn't quibble when the police 'accidentally' didn't charge one of their own in time (2 months) for murder and he was acquitted over the time limit (somehow, firing blindly into a crowd of people was "part" of his job, go figure).
Posted by Custard, Sunday, 27 June 2010 8:34:03 PM
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Steven you are correct, a great deal more assistance is required, in order to assist aboriginal communities. However, from my experience, the heart of the problems include also dealing with widespread alcoholism. One of the most difficult tasks or projects for any humanitarian, aide worker and government health worker.
Posted by we are unique, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:01:05 PM
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What interests me most about this thread is that it's taken stevenlmeyer so long to acquaint himself with the parlous status of Indigenous people in his adopted country, given that he migrated here quite some time ago and used to teach in a university until quite recently. I used to teach similar stats to undergraduate students here back in the 90s.

I can't help but suspect that the welfare of Indigenous Australians isn't his real agenda.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:11:27 PM
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csteele,
The problems in indigenous society are in fact not all that much different to the rest of the planet. Those who get up & have a go are being dragged down by those who have been indoctrinated with the mentality that everyone else owes them a living. Where the indigenous are unique is that no other country that I'm aware of provides such a big %age of funding, effort, patience & compensation as does Australia. Many indigenous leave their communities because they aspire to the western life style & commodities. Many simply try to get their communities back on track. Others simply want to live in small communities without artificial complexities. Unfortunately, do-gooder academic experts are being consulted by incompetent bureaucrats hence the progressive regress instead of progress in many communities. Not everyone wants to live a rat race & this fact is commonly not taken into consideration. For some people progress is materialistic , for others it's a peaceful existence. Those values should not be forced onto people who don't want them.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:53:46 PM
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No, nothing should be forced upon anyone that is true

Noone should be forced to live in an alcohol-free environment simply because "some" in that community cannot handle alcohol (according to the Church groups/Council/Police). Simple answers like 'abolition' did not work in the wider community when tried there and do not work in the smaller communities in which it is currently in place. All it does is lead to alcohol smuggling and violence, the statistics on that are clear.

I'm unsure of Steven's primary concern, THIS IS mine, I am related to ~1/4 of the people in the communities I've discussed and I am humiliated that somehow "THEY" are to blame for having "failed" to jump from the stone-age (and ethno-archeologically it is true) to the current age without issue...

The major problem that many cannot accept, is there was no central authority, no real source of authority, not even religion, unlike virtually any other culture on Earth. In terms of adaption to the present-day world, where we have entered into a social compact and entrust the authorities with our health, welfare, safety and wellbeing, as well as our feuds, fights and payback, the issues facing these communities are beyond that of any comparable society, saving that in Afghanistan. That is the only other place on Earth where the absence of trust/social compact is anywhere near this level.

Big Men run communities on fear, no doubt, corruption & nepotism are rife, also no argument. Outsiders laws are simply ignored or accepted as an annoyance at best. These are not functional societies, nobody seems to want to admit that. Trouble is, that is the first and hardest step we have to take and until we take it, the problems make no sense. The society started as a State of Nature (cf Hobbes/Locke), everyone's hand was raised against everyman, there WAS NO SOCIETY, the largest acknowledged semi-organised unit was a 'clan' type, language group.
Posted by Custard, Sunday, 27 June 2010 10:45:33 PM
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Horus

We have not been paying reparations to Aborigines. We have been paying bribes to rent-seekers, many of them of dubious Aboriginality. Paying reparations means making cash payments to individual Aborigines. The model I have in mind is based on the Germans paying reparations to Jewish survivors after World War 2.

csteele

I am convinced that poverty and unemployment are at the heart of high Aboriginal mortality rates. May I suggest you read the recently published Marmot Report:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/gheg/marmotreview

The report includes a review of health outcomes for different socio-economic classes in the UK. I suspect it is as applicable to Australian Aborigines as it is to poverty stricken unemployed Brits.

However so long as Aborigines live in outlying settlements far from job opportunities they will remain in poverty.

Custard

I take your point about alcoholism and substance abuse. However, if the British experience is a guide this may BOTH an effect of poverty and unemployment AND a cause.

Bottom line:

(1) The British Marmot report as well as many others documents a clear relationship between deprivation and life expectancy. (In the British case the difference in life expectancy between the most and least deprived groups is about a decade)

(2) The opportunities for Aborigines to escape from poverty are not to be found in remote settlements or rural areas. They lie in cities

It follows that the only way out of this is for Aborigines to be encouraged - perhaps will cash grants - to move to where the jobs are.

Certainly nothing else has worked.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:55:00 PM
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