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The Forum > General Discussion > OK - What should a Nation's Military do to Blockade Runners?

OK - What should a Nation's Military do to Blockade Runners?

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Ok, let's look carefully at what the current News story, the "Peace Flotilla" would be without the involvement of the State of Israel... Let's pretend it is rather closer to home...

Imagine if you will, that the Royal Australian Navy, as part of its participation in the blockade of the Persian/Arabian Gulf, was called upon to deal with a flotilla of vessels which had refused to stop and be boarded.

Firstly, the Royal Australian Navy has been involved in PRECISELY these operations, and still are today. The response would be predicated upon the issue at hand, but given the facts, an armed boarding party would be dispatched to (a)take control of the vessel; ;(b) pacify the crew/passengers; and (c) force said vessels to proceed to a Port where they can be interned/questioned.

If the initial boarding party was violently resisted, to the extent demonstrated on the video from this incident, the ADF's Rules of Engagement would allow each soldier to determine whether or not to fire, based upon their perception as to the risk of death or serious harm befalling their comrades. In this case, they would almost certainly have opened fire (I would too).

That is the reality, leave the propaganda out of it. International waters or not, the flotilla had announced an intent to run the legally constituted blockade of a declared "terrorist" State, which was being legally blockaded, under the rules of maritime warfare, by a belligerent power of that State.

International legal considerations don't exist in that case, they had declared their intention to breach the blockade and land supplies to the belligerent State, that made them a belligerent and a lawful target (a neutral ship is one traveling between neutral Countries, the instant they announce their intention to land in a non-neutral Country, they are a belligerent).

PS What is the status of those Australian's who undertook to deliberately, knowingly and intentionally provide "material aid" to a "Declared Terrorist Organisation"? Presumably they will be arrested, charged and tried on their return? I mean, that is ALL David Hicks was found guilty of isn't it?
Posted by Custard, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 8:36:48 PM
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I am not an expert on any form of ocean warfare, but it seems to me that the Israeli forces 'bungy jumping' onto the deck of the main aid ship was a bit of overkill?

Israel says they had tried all other avenues of a peaceful solution to the situation, but surely just blocking the ship's way would have been less violent?

If armed forces landed on my ship from above I might be sufficiently alarmed enough to hit out at them too!
Posted by suzeonline, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 9:33:46 PM
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"PS What is the status of those Australian's who undertook to deliberately, knowingly and intentionally provide "material aid" to a "Declared Terrorist Organisation"? Presumably they will be arrested, charged and tried on their return?"

I'd suggest checking your facts before sounding off Custard. Hamas is not a "Declared Terrorist Organisation" in Australia. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades are declared, but Hamas isn't. Do try and remember that Australian foreign policy isn't necessarily identical to Israel's.

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/NationalSecurity.nsf/Page/What_Governments_are_doingListing_of_Terrorism_Organisations
Posted by Johnj, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 9:47:51 PM
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Just comparing one wrong with another.

Can anyone list the number of conflicts that Australia has had a role in through sending 'advisers' or even troops since WW2? Must be quite a few. Just what the hell is it with the Liberals that they are forever acting tough with others people's lives?

As for Israel and its latest stunt, the reckless disregard shown for non-Jewish lives was on view to all nations.
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 9:48:17 PM
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Suze, we do something similar, using inflatable boats to board illegal fishing boats, when they won't stop.

I am totally against this practice. It is too dangerous to our sailors. We do this because we are too soft on illegals, & prefer to endanger our own, rather than them.

I believe a few non explosive rounds, first through the bow, & if necessary, the bridge would be a better idea.

What do you think the Israeli were doing Suse, other than trying to prevent blood shed, with their boarding technique. They could stood off, & stopped those ships with gunfire, without any danger to themselves.

I think it is true, that the leaders of the people on that boat wanted an international incident, & were quite happy to see blood spilt, at least as long as it was not their own. They are quite ruthless enough to have not minded a few deaths, to make the news reports more dramatic.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 9:56:07 PM
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Custard,It was in international waters.That is an act of war and piracy.You also conviently ignore the slow extermination of Palestinians.Oh I forgot.Palestinisians do not belong to the species of homo sapiens and that appeases all our consciences.

I can now see how the Germans ignored the torture extermination of 6 million Jews.We seemingly have learnt nothing.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 10:03:39 PM
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And of course we would do well to remember that Israel is in breach of more than 1 *Security Council Resolution* and recently was found guilty of "War Crimes" by the investigating official, and an Israeli himself, *Mr GoldStone*

What is the official definition of "Rogue State?"
Posted by DreamOn, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 10:29:40 PM
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It is not piracy to SINK a belligerent ship in wartime. A belligerent ship is one that is carrying cargo to an blockaded area. The laws of maritime warfare are VERY clear, and were used by both sides extensively in WWII.

Interesting, the number of posters who made no attempt to consider this WITHOUT Israel...

The thing is, our Navy does use both inflatable boats and helicopters to get armed soldiers/sailors onto the decks of ships which are attempting to evade blockades. Some of these blockades are in International Waters (those in the Persian/Arabian Gulf & those around N.Korea stand out) and nobody is leveling charges of piracy at the RAN.

I hate to break it to you, but if Australian Soldiers/Sailors were subjected to the response that boarding party was, they would in all likelihood (and quite legally) have opened fire.

As to Hamas, the ruling party is the ruling party, it is up to the persons involved to demonstrate they were not providing aid to the Brigades... There is a demonstrable case that they were acting to provide material and/or propagandist support to HAMAS. It is for them to establish that they have a defence. The fact is, they undertook to support the intentional use of force against the IDF, that suggests they were supporting the Brigades.
Posted by Custard, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 10:49:52 PM
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If Israel had any brains they would have blocked the ships with ships of their own. Then the protesters would have had to ram them to continue. Making the protesters seem the belligerent ones.

By boarding at night, from helicopters they were asking for trouble. In the videos you can see protesters grabbing hold of the ropes the soldiers were using to descend from the helicopters. A reasonable reaction to being boarded by hostile troops in international waters. This may have upset and scared the soldiers who naturally would have tried to stop such interference. Once a few protesters are manhandled, a few more arrive to help them and suddenly the soldiers are outnumbered and fearing for their lives and then the shooting begins.
That the so called "best army in the world" could not predict and avoid such an outcome is nothing but gross incompetence.
You wouldnt see the Aussie military being so idiotic.

Oh and not to mention the siege of Gaza is illegal and anyone has a right to run the Israeli blockade.
Israel was under no threat so cannot in any way claim self defense.
If they really did have paintball guns they were being used exactly as desperate criminals use them: as a bluff to gain advantage at the critical moment-- and if that fails, a ploy to afterwards support a cover story of good will and good intentions.
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 11:04:08 PM
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This is the wrong question. We should be asking instead why is there a blockade of Gaza, which is occupied by Israel. What is Israel doing pushing Palestinians into the Gaza ghetto, walling them off, and then blockading Gaza, when it's occupied by Israel already? This generation of Gazan children will not be as tall as their parents, due to malnutrition. While there is no exact parallel, the world has seen this sort of victimisation of people before - colonise a place then push the natives into the margins, persecute and sometimes kill them - sound familiar? It should to any colonial nation. And how should the international community of nations react? The same as with South Africa under apartheid - condemn the unethical behaviour, cut sporting and cultural ties, introduce economic sanctions if necessary. The Israeli government has this year made the nation of Israel look like a rogue state governed by extremists who pay no attention to international law - forging the passports of real citizens of other countries (thereby putting those people in danger), attacking peace activists in international waters.
Posted by Johnj, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 11:21:47 PM
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tick tick tick tick. Israels enemies have and will increase but most people are to silly to read the end of the story.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 11:42:58 PM
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I think that the Israelis and Palestinians are all as bad as each other really.

Both sides believe they are right and will fight for their rights.
There is too long a history of conflict between the two peoples.

Maybe the people who brokered the Irish and English peace in Northern Ireland, to stop their mad bombing of each other, could give some pointers to these guys?

You see, in my opinion, it is not just one religion against another, it is just groups of violent men using violence because they get off on it.
Posted by suzeonline, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 12:15:24 AM
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" it is just groups of violent men using violence because they get off on it."

and women.
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 12:46:53 AM
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Once again Israel oversteps the mark and once again portrays itself as the innocent victim.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 1:55:42 AM
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[Custard, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 8:36:48 PM
Firstly, the Royal Australian Navy has been involved in PRECISELY these operations, and still are today. The response would be predicated upon the issue at hand, but given the facts, an armed boarding party would be dispatched to (a)take control of the vessel; ;(b) pacify the crew/passengers; and (c) force said vessels to proceed to a Port where they can be interned/questioned.]

Yes indeed however, a very poor analogy given the huge difference in that Australia does not engage its military assets outside of the legally accepted international norms as administered by the Charter of the United Nations.

Australia’s military commitment, known as Operation Slipper, operates as part of the NATO led International Security Assistance Force, a peace enforcement mission under Chapter VII of the UN Charter and at the invitation of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as provided under the United Nations Security Council resolution 1833.

The Royal Australian Navy contributes a main fleet combatant unit currently HMAS Parramatta, to the maritime security operations in the Western Asian Theatre, primarily the Arabian Sea. Parramatta’s mission is to undertake maritime interdiction operations in the Arabian Sea to ensure international campaigns against terrorism and maritime security in the Western Asian Area of Operations are met.

In December 2008, Australia, along with 17 other countries, co-sponsored United Nations Security Council Resolution 1846 regarding the Somali Piracy issue. Parramatta’s area of operations was then extended to include counter-piracy operations off the coast of Somalia.

Nothing at all similar to what the Israeli’s are doing unilaterally and very much illegally.

[Hasbeen, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 9:56:07 PM
Suze, we do something similar, using inflatable boats to board illegal fishing boats, when they won't stop.]

Australian Navel boarding parties have never/never boarded an illegal fishing boat once it has been established that they have left Australian territorial waters and entered international waters. If they had, I can ensure you; the Indonesian Government would be at the head of the queue demanding immediate reparations for Australian Piracy of the high seas.
Posted by Westralis, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 5:38:52 AM
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The bias of the media here is astounding.

The boats were ALWAYS going to be boarded. IT was inevitable, whether it was in international waters or Israeli. Right or wrong, that's a fact and everyone knows it. There was NO WAY those ships were getting through to Gaza unmolested.

There's footage FROM the "activists" of more than two weapons and there's footage FROM the "activists" of one soldier being stabbed and another thrown overboard. This footage is readily available on YouTube.

The killings were unfortunate - tragic, if a victim was a by-stander, but why aren't the media here in Australia telling the WHOLE story like they're supposed to?. Whether right or wrong, the entire story should be reported for people to make up their owns minds. The stuff I'm reading on Australian news sites is nothing more than bias manipulation of public opinion.

Shame on you Au media.
Posted by StG, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 8:58:05 AM
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Sorry to say, the blockade of Gaza, run by a Government which does recognise Israel's right to exist and with which they are at war, is legal. The Security Council is a toothless tiger now, Australia, most of Europe and the US ignore it nowadays, that is why the UN is not involved in the Korean issue this time.

As to the Gazans being pushed into an enclave, it is the same one the UN drew up in 1948, go bother them.

The Tobruk, etc. were involved in Operations in the Persian Gulf (which was also contrary to UN Resolutions at times), stopping, searching and interdicting "blockade runners" in International Waters. I repeat, if I'd been in the boarding party that received such a welcome, I would fire and I would be right (dark, confusion, an aggressive, premeditated attack using weapons, placing my friends at risk, yep, that is covered in the ADF's ROE's).

If Israel had used its head, it would have mined the hell out of the the approaches to the blockaded area. All they would have to do then, is advise approaching vessels thereof and offer to allow them a pilot if they are prepared to be boarded & inspected. Otherwise they can run the minefield and accept the known risk. Mines are great, passive and incredibly effective.

PS The boarding of illegal boats off Christmas Island happens predominantly outside Australian Territorial waters from what I understand. The Indonesians have no interest in shouting Piracy, that would mean they own the problem.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 9:40:28 AM
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Custard's analogy with Australian participation in other naval blockades is specious, because such actions are conducted lawfully.

Imagine the outcry if the Australian military was involved in attacking with automatic weapons a convoy that was transporting humanitarian aid and armed only with shovels and knives?

The UN has described the blockade as illegal under international law. The actions of the Israelis is tantamount to piracy, but I bet the US won't allow Israel to be held to account for it.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 9:41:00 AM
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Australia's role in the blockade of Iraq was one of our most infamous actions as a country. It directly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children a toll that was deemed 'worth it' by the then American secretary of state.

To have helped withhold measles vaccines and cancer drugs along with other essential supplies was insulting to any notion of us as a fair nation. I remember an article in my local paper interviewing a sailor who had returned from duty in the gulf. She was quite proud in relating how she was involved in turning around a ship carrying dates that had been trying to run the blockade. I do have pride in the efforts of our armed forces overseas but this only brought feelings of disgust. It was at least as morally bankrupt as the current blockade of Gaza.

I can not blame the sailor because she was under instruction. However I can express my pride at the bravery of some Australians who were prepared to put themselves in harms way by joining the Gaza Aid flotilla. Indeed one is reported to have been wounded. I like to think that as Australians most of us are generally able to tell the bullies from the victims. The fact that there are those among us who are prepared to attempt to right wrongs such as this blockade should reflect well on all of us.
Posted by csteele, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 10:55:02 AM
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Custard,
I recommend that you read the Israeli news paper report and analysis
http://www.haaretz.com/ (thanks foxy)

This wasn't anything like what the Aust Navy is doing.
This was a "Cock Up" ( archaic archery term).
Fact the Israelis knew all about this flotilla before it left port.
and there were numerous more reasonable responses that this Unilateral fit of pride by the Israelis.
Frankly, given the afore knowledge their OTT behaviour was/is reprehensible. They breached international law. See the side box in this post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm
it clearly outlines the international law.
The whole thing was to stop enforce their unilateral blockade regardless the fact they knew what was on the ship. There was no WMD.
or expectation of such.
The Aus Navy actions are fundamentally different on multiple grounds.
Posted by examinator, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 11:03:38 AM
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Israeli’s actions in maintaining the blockade against Gaza and boarding the humanitarian flotilla were unconscionable.

However, in criticising Israeli actions Australia ignores actions of its own.

The Bougainville conflict is not at the forefront of Australian consciousness. Societal and environmental devastation caused by the Panguna mine sparked Bougainville’s flight for independence from Papua New Guinea. Patrol boats maintained by the Australian navy carried out the blockade of the island. Those boats which tried to run the blockade were machine gunned. The UN rapporteur issued a report on the blockade which caused many deaths due to the denial of medication to the people of Bougainville. Australia was condemned by the United Nations as blockades which prevent delivery of medical and other humanitarian aid are illegal.

Mercenary pilots on detached service from the Australian and New Zealand armed forces flew helicopters which helped PNG forces combat the Bougainvilleans.

Ordinarily it is against the law to recruit mercenaries on Australian soil. However, Lionel Bowen, the then attorney-general ruled that the Crimes Act would not apply in the PNG recruitment.

There was even a movie of the action. The following is part of a review.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainville_%E2%80%93_Our_Island_Our_Fight

“Bougainville – Our Island Our Fight is a 1998 documentary film. It was produced and directed by Wayne Coles-Janess.

The film focuses on an indigenous people who fight against a multinational mining company and government forces. The guerrillas hold the belief that they are fighting to defend their independence and the local environment on the island of Bougainville. This film is notable for its unique subject matter, as most Western media has not reported upon the Bougainville conflict.”

"Living with Rebels" by Rosemarie Gillespie tells the story of one brave woman who ran the blockade to bring supplies to the Bougainvilleans.

The big difference between the blockade of Bougainville and the blockade of Gaza is that press coverage of the blockade of Bougainville was almost non-existent, and most Australians are still unaware of the blockade.

As far as I can see the big similarity between the two blockades is that they both stink to high heaven.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 2:17:28 PM
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david f - yes, Australia's various actions and inactions with respect to Bougainville's efforts to secede from PNG didn't exactly bathe our nation in glory. However, while that might explain some of the Rudd government's lack of official censure of Israel over the flotilla massacre, it has nothing to do with the rightful outrage being expressed by decent ordinary Australians over Israel's appalling overkill. Indeed, had ordinary Australians been more aware of events in Bougainville they would undoubtedly expressed their outrage, but as you say, it received relatively little media coverage in those pre-Internet days.

As it happens, I was one of those who was aware of what was happening, but getting any action outside academic and NGO circles proved to be near impossible. Mind you, it's probably one reason that I feel particularly outraged about the Gaza blockade.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 2:53:06 PM
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Please, before trying to lecture me on the Rules of War, the relevant Hague Conventions, Part V: The Responsibilities of Neutral Powers and Persons in the Case of War on Land (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague05.asp), CH.1, Article 4 reads:

Art. 4.

Corps of combatants cannot be formed nor recruiting agencies opened on the territory of a neutral Power to assist the belligerents.

And again at CH.3, Article 17 reads:

Art. 17: A neutral cannot avail himself of his neutrality

(a) If he commits hostile acts against a belligerent;

(b) If he commits acts in favor of a belligerent, particularly if he voluntarily enlists in the ranks of the armed force of one of the parties. In such a case, the neutral shall not be more severely treated by the belligerent as against whom he has abandoned his neutrality than a national of the other belligerent State could be for the same act.

In this instance ANYONE who took up arms when legally boarded, is a belligerent and cannot claim neutral status. On top of this, in setting out to run a legal blockade by one combatant against another, between whom a declared State of War exists, they committed a hostile act. You don't have to like it, but the Geneva & Hague Conventions spell out the relevant law, not the BBC.

Turkey has assembled corps of combatants and recruitment centers therefore on it's soil, it is in grave risk of losing its neutrality, which would see massive amounts of arms & support flowing to the Greeks, the Armenians and the Kurds.

As to how the ADF would act differently, pray tell how? The blockade(s) they are running now are ALL in International Waters, the boarding parties are armed with automatic weapons and are willing and able to use them in self-defence.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 3:06:50 PM
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Custard, I don't think that anybody's blaming the individual Israeli Marines who, after all, were simply defending themselves as they are trained to do. It seems to me that the blame for the muderously disproportionate Israeli response lies squarely with whichever inhumane thugs gave them their orders.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 3:24:12 PM
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We can agree to disagree on that one... Quite frankly, I blame the inhumane thugs that coerced real 'Peace Protesters' to use as a front for their propaganda stunt. If they were fair dinkum about providing the supplies, they would not have been stopping for press conferences on the way and would have used one of the other alternatives presented to them.

Instead they chose to create a conflict, the blockade of Gaza exists because Israel is at war with HAMAS, it is a military blockade and until now they have been able to run it fairly well (except for when HAMAS closes off the crossings). Unfortunately the aid doesn't get to where it is meant to go, it is used as a political tool, support HAMAS or don't eat.

The difficulty now, is that the conflict having been entered, it will not stop...

The only non-confrontational route out of this that Israel has is to mine the entire coastline of Gaza. Then all vessels seeking to answer can either comply with the suggestion they stop, be boarded, inspected and escorted to a suitable port, or they can choose to run the minefield. Mines are good for this, they provide a non-offensive method of controlling a coastline, people choosing to ignore them take on a known risk and the result is their problem.

The obscenity that is the blatant manipulation of the press looks like backfiring. For once Israel seems to have been at least partly ready for Palliwood, the videos from both IDF members & 'protesters', clearly show the conflict was initiated and escalated by the 'peaceful protestors'. That is why Clinton, Obama, etc. are calling for an independent Judicial Inquiry.

Let's see where the truth lies in the cold hard light of fact. I am extremely interested to see it myself.

If it turns out that it was nothing more than a stage managed propaganda ploy, a lot of 'supporters' will be left with visible egg on their face & a lot won't appreciate it.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 3:49:46 PM
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Susonline :)

You said:

//Maybe the people who brokered the Irish and English peace in Northern Ireland, to stop their mad bombing of each other, could give some pointers to these guys?//

Poor Suz.. the issue was..is and always will be "Jerusalem"...

It is ultimately a clash of faiths over one chunk of land.
Dillbrains who 'brokered the Irish English peace" oh puh-lease.. they would not have the slighest clue on this one mate.

Read the Hamas Charter Suz.. please.. it might open your eyes.

Note also the chant of the 'progressive activists' "Jews..remember khaiber"

Do you know what that relates to ? I'd love a response to that question.
Thanx
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 5:39:18 PM
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why do those who along with the Iranian President have the honesty to admit they don't think Israel has a right to exist let alone defend itself. All this dishonest rhetoric in order to add to those who hate Israel because they have turned a small piece of land into a productive oasis unlike an Arab nation has ever been able to do.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 6:03:04 PM
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Sadly, suzeonline, it isn't going to be that simple.

>>Maybe the people who brokered the Irish and English peace in Northern Ireland, to stop their mad bombing of each other, could give some pointers to these guys?<<

The last round of the "Troubles" went on for on forty years, but has its roots (variously) in the Easter Rising/Black and Tans era (1919 to 1922), and the Irish Rebellion of 1798. Given that i) the present relative calm in Northern Ireland may only be a lull in hostilities (since nothing has actually been settled) and ii) Israel has only existed since 1947, I suspect the idea of someone "brokering" a peace may be a little unrealistic.

As Boaz was too polite to say, the present relative calm in the six counties happened through a general sense of exhaustion all round, coupled with the EC-supported economic resurgence of the Republic that flattened out the financial disparities a touch, rather than any efforts by politicians.

My own view is that both sides got so sick of the sight of the posture-some Tony Blair spouting blandness and platitudes, that they simply gave up.

As far as this rather nasty situation is concerned, I am prepared to wait a little longer for more facts to emerge. All we are seeing at the moment is the heated output of every information-spinner under the sun.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 6:12:03 PM
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The Israelis should have just sent the blockade-runners to Davey Jones' locker.
Posted by Proxy, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 7:16:27 PM
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Dear Proxy,

"The Israelis should have just sent the blockade-runners to Davey Jones' locker."

Probably one of the most unchristian sentiments I have seen on OLO in a hell of a long time.

Where does the deep anger and hatred that this portrays come from?
Posted by csteele, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 11:15:17 PM
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He just wants attention, csteele - like any other troll.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 3 June 2010 12:03:20 AM
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csteele wrote:

"The Israelis should have just sent the blockade-runners to Davey Jones' locker."

Probably one of the most unchristian sentiments I have seen on OLO in a hell of a long time.

Dear csteele,

I also disagree with the sentiments expressed by Proxy, but I also disagree with you.

Considering the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Wars of the Reformation, missionaries supported by gunboats and other examples of Christian mayhem and violence those are very Christian sentiments.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 3 June 2010 5:23:55 AM
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Yet another layer of beneficiaries... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898304,00.html

How convenient?
Posted by Custard, Thursday, 3 June 2010 8:21:03 AM
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csteele,
<<Probably one of the most unchristian sentiments I have seen on OLO in a hell of a long time.>>
You're right of course.
In retrospect, it sounds almost Islamic.
Let me see...
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).
Yep.
Definitely sounds Islamic.
Posted by Proxy, Thursday, 3 June 2010 6:27:11 PM
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Its a horrible thing that has happened with the boat.

Do you think, the people operating the boat might have reasonable foreseen that their actions could have resulted as it has done? In which case, the person in charge of the boat is at least partly responsible for putting the people in that situation.

Is there an alternative course of action Israel could have followed, apart from completely abandoning Israel or giving it to the Palestinians or another pie-in-the-sky...?

The only issue is whether the Israelis gave a full and comprehensive warning about the dangers before acting. Basically, the activists backed the Israelis into a corner then cry foul when they come out punching. At least, the matter is resolved for once and for all.
Blockade means blockade in that part of the world...
Posted by PatTheBogan, Thursday, 3 June 2010 9:03:42 PM
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Blockade means blockade all over the world. We blockade our territorial waters, as did Israel here (Gaza is autonomous, not a State, thus it does not have control of the land below the waterline). The ships breached the Israeli controlled territory and were boarded after repeated warnings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4).

On 5/6 ships, those carrying the majority of the Westerners, this went off without violence, without hysteria and without bloodshed. On one ship however, a group of passengers took it upon themselves to attack the first soldier onto the deck, bashing him to the ground then clubbing him on it, then the second... These people were clearly in mortal danger (an iron bar is a deadly weapon, don't think so, come here and I'll show you) and their commander made the right decision to safeguard his men. As this would be the same response as I would expect of the ADF in the same situation, I see no problem with it.

The people of Gaza chose to support Hamas and war, imbeciles like this continue to endanger decent people in aid of what? A government that refuses to allow the aid in? What a sad, sad, joke

Interestingly, Hamas has blocked the aid - shows how desperately it was needed doesn't it (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/index.html?iref=obinsite). The world is waking up to it too (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/boatloads-of-bloody-minded-pacifists/story-e6frezz0-1225874166305 & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwvIHJ3DhPg). Palliwood, never knows when to leave a good thing alone, now it is going to explode in their faces AGAIN.
Posted by Custard, Friday, 4 June 2010 1:09:46 AM
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Dear davidf,

We have canvassed this issue on earlier threads and ended by agreeing to disagree.

You will note that I used the little 'c' christian rather than the big 'C'. Although not a practising member of that faith I do have some affection for it.

I recognise the transformative power it can have on some very blighted lives and seen first hand the anger abating effect possible in new converts.

This is why I am so struck by the positions of proxy and AGIR. Their attitudes and views are so discordant with what I traditionally understand to be christian ethic.

I humbly venture that were I to state the actions of the IDF in gunning down peace activists in the recent convoy was an example of a Jewish ethic I would be rightly chastised.

Just as I feel deep anger at the blight past actions of the Church have placed on what could be a gentle faith, so have I reacted to the words of proxy. My post to him was in some ways an attempt to hold him to account and in another wanting to know where his 'deep anger and hatred' was coming from i.e. was it from his faith. If it were, then it would have been disturbing and certainly worth exploring further.

I think it was quite revealing that he/she answered with a diatribe about Islam. Is this a sign of a determined unwillingness to conduct any sort of self examination? This would be indicative of a pathology just in its self.

Just as I respect your right to defend the Hebrew testament from misuse by Christians I am asking that I be allowed similar elbow room to defend my notions, (and those I suspect of many cultural christians) of what a christian act is, against one who professes to be a follower of that faith, but only it would seem in its letter rather than its spirit.

Dear Proxy,

With respect you haven't answered my question.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 4 June 2010 12:43:18 PM
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Dear csteele,

Christianity, Judaism and any other living religion or secular belief system is defined by its doctrines and by what it inspires its adherents to do. We cannot always be sure that it is the belief system that caused them to act in that way, but we may venture to make a connection.

AGIR has specifically appealed to the Bible and has connected his beliefs with those of scripture.

http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_theTerribleTexts.aspx contains the New and Old Testament biblical texts that Bishop Spong cites as inspiration for bigotry, homophobia and antisemitism. The inspiration is in Holy Scripture. Some people take these texts seriously and are inspired by them.

You wrote: "I humbly venture that were I to state the actions of the IDF in gunning down peace activists in the recent convoy was an example of a Jewish ethic I would be rightly chastised."

If you can establish that they were gunned down and the IDF (I prefer to call them the Israeli Armed Forces - armies can do many other things besides defending themselves) reacted without provocation you could be right in calling it a Jewish ethic.

I regard the idea of a chosen people as denigrating the part of the human race not chosen and the idea of a real estate dealer god as designating a particular territory for a particular people as religiously justified irredentism. In short some of both Christian and Jewish behaviour stinks, and the souce of the stench can be found in scripture.

Religion is a mixed bag, and the ethics derived from it is both bad and good.

AGIR and proxy are true Christians as their attitudes are inspired by their religious beliefs. Baruch Goldstein who murdered the unarmed Muslim worshippers in a mosque and Yigal Amir who murdered Rabin are true Jews by the same account.

Martin Buber who opposed anti-Arab bigotry is also a true Jew, and Martin Luther King jr was a true Christian.

I was objecting to you equating good behaviour with religious belief but my objection is not restricted to Christian behaviour. Religion can inspire both good and evil.
Posted by david f, Friday, 4 June 2010 4:40:28 PM
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CSTEELE...it worked...you obtained my attention.

What they heck did you mean by 'my remarks' which you equate with Proxy's "send em to Davy Jones".....all I said was that 2 buffoons from the UK could not solve the problem..and I pointed out that ultimately it is about Jerusalem..

I didn't advocate violence of any kind. I just tried to explain it.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 4 June 2010 4:52:23 PM
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david f,
<<I regard the idea of a chosen people as denigrating the part of the human race not chosen and the idea of a real estate dealer god as designating a particular territory for a particular people as religiously justified irredentism. In short some of both Christian and Jewish behaviour stinks, and the souce of the stench can be found in scripture.>>

If a God who promised his chosen people a small patch of desert, without oil, surrounded by warmongers in the middle east stinks, what then of a God who promises his followers the whole planet and exhorts them to kill anybody who resists?
ie Allah.

You lack perspective.

<<We cannot always be sure that it is the belief system that caused them to act in that way, but we may venture to make a connection.>>

You seem unable to make the Islamic connection.
I'll help you.
The Koran represents part of the Islamic belief system:
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).
Do you still have problem connecting the beliefs (above) with the 24/7 acts of Islamic terrorism around the world?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Posted by Proxy, Friday, 4 June 2010 5:41:01 PM
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Amusing, even Andrew Bolt (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_how_hamas_fooled_the_west/) has come to see through the smoke & mirrors, while Reuters have reported something very disturbing, from an Al-Jazeera cameraman no less, that IDF Troops had been taken and were being held (http://alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE6521UG.htm), something of a grim thought - being taken and handed over to Hamas... (NB Gilad Shalit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit) still hasn't had any access to the Red Crescent/Cross). While here is an ex-British Marine, discussing the event (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0EfG8mnAo&feature=player_embedded)... Seems like the worm is turning, here is the Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/01/israel-no-choice-gaza-flotilla)...

The simplicity of the plot and the hysteria meant the intelligent people of the world were always going to dig deeper... It isn't a pretty "peace protest" when one looks under the rug is it?
Posted by Custard, Friday, 4 June 2010 6:43:51 PM
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Dear Proxy,

I am well aware of Islamic terrorism. However, that was not what csteele and I were discussing. We were discussing Judaism and Christianity. One can also discuss Buddhist terrorism and mention the fact that the Japanese officer corps in WW2 responsible for numerous atrocities were almost completely Buddhist as are the Sinhalese in Sri Lanka whose Buddhist monks opposed any peace settlement with the Tamils. We could also mention the Hindus who burnt a missionary and his sons alive in their car. and burned Muslims alive. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) was responsible for the demolition of the historic Babri Mosque in 1992 and the Godhra (in the western state of Gujarat) genocide in 2002, in which hundreds of Muslims were killed.

However, I didn't mention Muslim terrorism for the same reason that I did not mention Buddhist or Hindu terrorism. That was not what we were discussing. Before you get on your hobby horse and accuse other people of lacking perspective pay attention to what the other people are talking about. Other people don't have to ride your hobby horse.
Posted by david f, Friday, 4 June 2010 8:00:43 PM
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david f,
<<AGIR and proxy are true Christians as their attitudes are inspired by their religious beliefs.>>
I have no religious beliefs, which renders your statement even more meaningless than it already was.
Posted by Proxy, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:13:59 PM
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Evidence of Jewish perfidy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 5 June 2010 12:06:49 AM
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Dear AGIR,

You said “So.. with this background, Israel's reaction is entirely understandable. It also means that criticism of it, is entirely irrational and could be said to be supportive of a 'death camps for Jews' mentality.”

By inference Israel is within its rights to use what ever means at its disposal to halt these boats including murdering peace protesters. Might this include torpedoing?

But yes I may have deemed your comments as more sinister than what they deserved. There is a simple way to clear it up. You could, if you were so inclined, agree that Proxy's call for the sinking of these ships is definitely unchristian.

And if he turns out to be an overseas contributor to OLO you could then agree that his calling for slaughter on such a grand scale of peace protesters be deemed a sufficient reason to bar him from entering this country, because compared to the comments of Cat Stevens this guy is a hell of a lot worse.

Simple.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 5 June 2010 1:05:08 AM
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Dear davidf,

I am fully cognisant of what you are objecting to and I find it just as subjective as my idea of what a christian act means to me and, as I have stated, to many of my fellow cultural christians.

I must ask, do you celebrate christmas or is the whole idea of coming together as families on the day that Jesus was supposedly born far too drenched in the history of European pogroms?

Or can you have some sympathy for the Dickensian notion of a christmas spirit, one that is universal and even healing, where even overt religiosity is put aside for a day?

Perhaps the government of Israel needs a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come to show them the "shadows of what may be." In fact the entire cabinet could benefit by noting the lessons in the book.

I regard the notion of a christian act in much the same light. It is not a term I should expect you to be comfortable with but I am, it is part of the language of the people I know and I have yet to hear a convincing argument why I should not be.

Of course I would not think of directing the term at you but I am more than happy asking the question of Proxy.

My apologies for the rambling nature of this post but it is a little past my bedtime and I'm about to hand the computer over to another.

BTW when you said “If you can establish that they were gunned down and the IDF (I prefer to call them the Israeli Armed Forces - armies can do many other things besides defending themselves) reacted without provocation you could be right in calling it a Jewish ethic.” I was a little shocked. If you meant it as it stands then I my heart goes out to you and I'm sorry.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 5 June 2010 1:36:02 AM
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Dear Proxy,

Since it appears it is not a religious belief that drives your obvious deep anger, hatred, and possibly fear I was wondering have you lost a loved one to a drone missile, or to inhumane sanctions on your country, or through a phosphorus bomb, or waiting at a checkpoint for medical treatment that never came?

Okay they might have been a touch facetious. Lets try to a hijacked jet hitting their building, or to a roadside bomb, or to a bomb in a Bali nightclub?

Or are you an Israeli?

Any of the above would make your attitude understandable but without something of their import impacting on your life I'm afraid I am left with the sense of an individual I would deem as unstable.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 5 June 2010 1:37:53 AM
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Dear CSTEELE

"Proxy's call for the sinking of these ships is definitely unchristian."

You saw Proxy's reply. What has Christianity got to do with this ?

You can observe that Proxy who expresses "no religious belief" and myself having strong religious belief.. making similar points.

I've met and worked with thorough going atheists who are FARRRRR more 'rabid' than anything you might see from me or Proxy or even both of us together.

So.. this should alert you to an important point. "Perhaps there are things which are of concern purely in 'humanitarian' terms" here ?

There's no point in pursuing that in detail as it will inevitably evoke hysteria from some usual suspects.

CHRISTIANITY.... since you mentioned it.. might be worth making some kind of position statement.

If you follow a theme in the new testament of "The Kingdom of God" you will find many references to the fact that it is not an earthly political kingdom. As such, it does not have an army and does not do any of the things you observe happening between Israel and the Arabs.

However.. the New Testament does have a firmly outlined position re 'government' and that's found in Romans 13 (have you read this?)

Other than that..Jesus oft quoted "Give to Caesar that which is Caesars" and remember.. Jesus brought Centurians into the kingdom...but their 'job' was still to keep order and at times this would mean killing. (Under the 'Romans 13' framework/Emperor)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 5 June 2010 7:34:40 AM
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csteele,

Have I lost a loved one:
to a drone missile,
to inhumane sanctions on my country,
through a phosphorus bomb,
waiting at a checkpoint for medical treatment that never came,
to a hijacked jet hitting their building,
to a roadside bomb,
to a bomb in a Bali nightclub?

None of the above.

Am I an Israeli?
No, nor a Jew as far as I'm aware.

Am I unstable?
Not as long as I keep taking my medication.
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 5 June 2010 10:55:36 AM
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csteele,

May I introduce to an atheist stand-up comedian who holds Christianity and Islam in (almost) equal contempt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4&feature=player_embedded#!

I'm not sure what "drives (his) obvious deep anger, hatred, and possibly fear" of Islam,
but he certainly expresses his views (and mine) most eloquently.
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 5 June 2010 11:20:06 AM
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Proxy: << Am I unstable?
Not as long as I keep taking my medication. >>

I figured it had to be pathological. Perhaps you could talk to your doctor about increasing the dosage? The current level seems inadequate to keep your symptoms in check.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 5 June 2010 11:42:30 AM
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Proxy..without even looking...that HAS to be PAT CONDELL ? :)

*checks the link*

YEP..who else could it be :) a very incisive and funny "Islamaphobe" if ever there was one.

If I was part of trying to destroy a particular country.. I would not be surprised if a relly or 2 was taken out by a drone.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 5 June 2010 2:36:04 PM
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Dear csteele,

I see no more reason to celebrate the birth of Jesus than I do to celebrate the birth of Osiris, Mithra, Buddha or other mythical or semi-legendary religious figures. I don't relate to the holiday. However, when I was in the army I would volunteer for duty on that day so other people to whom the holiday meant something could have time off. There is no more reason for a Jew to celebrate the birth of Jesus than for a Christian to celebrate the birth of Mohammed.

You also wrote: "Or can you have some sympathy for the Dickensian notion of a christmas spirit, one that is universal and even healing, where even overt religiosity is put aside for a day?"

I enjoyed Dickens’story but don't accept the idea of a spirit arising from a Christian holy day as being universal. Other religious traditions have their own festivals where families get together, exchange gifts and invite others to join in the fun. I celebrated Diwali with Hindus and Chinese New Year with Chinese. Jews have many joyous festivals during the year, Passover with two seders where strangers are invited to join, Purim where one drinks wine until one can’t tell Mordecai from Haman, Tu Bshvat, the New Year of the trees, where we have a seder and Hannukah where there is gift giving & jollity. I don’t suggest it should be universal but if you are in Brisbane next Passover I’ll see that you get invited to a seder.

csteele also wrote: Perhaps the government of Israel needs a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come to show them the "shadows of what may be." In fact the entire cabinet could benefit by noting the lessons in the book.

Considering the Crusades, the Wars of the Reformation, the Inquisition, British and other imperialism, the current destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan along their other record of violence I feel a Christian is not in a position to lecture Israel. In fact Christians might benefit from a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come themselves.

continued
Posted by david f, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:06:22 PM
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continued

Dear csteele,

I am neither a citizen nor a resident of Israel. It is simply another country which does not have separation of religion and state and does not treat all citizens equally regardless of ethnicity or religion. They don't consult me as to what course they should follow, and I resent the flaws of Israel being put on me. It is no way my country.

Part of the Jewish tradition I hold dear is that one should not rejoice in a military victory. That is an old tradition. King David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man of war. The Talmud contains midrashim or stories about portions of the Bible. One of the stories tells when the waters of the Red Sea closed over the Egyptians the angels around the Lord cheered. The Lord wept because the Egyptians were also his children. Originally the holiday of Hannukah celebrated a victory over the Hellenic forces. The rabbis not wanting to celebrate a military victory emphasised the miracle of the lights. I feel Israel has violated that tradition. I am unhappy that so many of their political leaders have been generals.

csteele also wrote: I regard the notion of a christian act in much the same light. It is not a term I should expect you to be comfortable with but I am, it is part of the language of the people I know and I have yet to hear a convincing argument why I should not be.

OK, I answer you in a Jewish spirit.

csteele also wrote: My apologies for the rambling nature of this post but it is a little past my bedtime and I'm about to hand the computer over to another.

Maybe, in sleepiness, veritas.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:12:20 PM
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Dear Proxy,

I'm afraid Mr Condell's humour escapes me, perhaps in this instance he wasn't trying to be funny. While I don't expect you to know where his 'obvious deep anger, hatred, and possibly fear' comes from I'm sure you have a little more idea about your own.

I truly am struggling to understand how such hatred has materialised within yourself without some deep seated cause. The best I have is irrational fear. I will admit to knowing some pretty far right people, some of whom I get on rather well with, but you are quite a few steps past any of them. It actually makes you a little more interesting than AGIR. Some of those who find religion late can often be susceptible to being led by those less savoury types who tend to inhabit the more fundamentalist of our religious establishments. There is a sense of withdrawal from the wider world, seeing it as evil, that provides the incubator of isolation where many aberrant ideas are allowed to flourish.

But you make it quite clear religion was not the factor in your case. What if anything is/was your isolatory circumstance? Relationship breakdown? A rural upbringing? I would prefer to hear it from you rather rather than having to comb your past posts.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 7 June 2010 12:19:19 AM
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Dear AGIR,

Forgive me for saying but I am saddened by what a blighted, enfeebled vision of Christianity you portray. You regurgitate Proxy's “What does Christianity got to do with this?” and then throw a quote from Paul, a Roman citizen, at me.

Where does Jesus' 'Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God.' or 'Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven', fit into your idea of the faith you claim to observe? Jesus was unequivocal, he saw himself as being sent 'to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed'. These things were not to be done in the afterlife, rather they needed doing in the now. Given the opportunity any Christian worth his or her salt would have been there aboard one of those boats.

But then again Jesus did say “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.” and might it be the likes of Proxy who are doing the trampling of any goodness from you? So what good is your version of Christianity for when it is just like a clanging cymbal?

You need to think about the following; if Jesus was to have witnessed the murders that took place on the convoy of peace activists or the oppression of the peoples of Gaza do you honestly think he would have said 'Well done Israelis, you have acted like the Romans in my day and moved swiftly to keep law and order.'?

Christianity's position should have been in the bowsprit of the lead boat not finding excuses for the evil that has occurred. Anything less verges on blasphemy.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 7 June 2010 12:23:30 AM
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Dear davidf,

Answered in a Jewish spirit by one who knows the best of, and wants the best for, their cultural fount, thank you.

The warmth with which you talk of the Jewish festive occasions is obvious and if I am ever in Brisbane at Passover I will be sure to take you up on your offer.

It is where I find myself at the moment, almost uncomfortably, defending notions of a faith my grandparents held dear. It spoke of compassion, charity, railing against oppression, delivering from want. Not of war nor revenge nor killing, all things that seem to come from the mouths of the most vocal, modern, self-called Christians.

The despoilers are at the gates!

To your other points, although I get the sense you might not only be polishing my soapbox but giving my megaphone a little touch up as well with these easy passes. Are we playing to each other or the audience? I'm not sure, but thank you anyway.

I was of course not asking if you celebrated the birth of Jesus but rather if you celebrated and appreciated Christmas in the spirit described by Dickens. As you have said “I celebrated Diwali with Hindus and Chinese New Year with Chinese.”, so is Christmas truly out of bounds for you?

You get no argument from me when you say “Christians might benefit from a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come themselves.” but it would be a shame if you were not open to a very universal message contained in Mr Dickens' book.

You wrote; “I resent the flaws of Israel being put on me” and it needs to be asked where your greatest resentment lies, is it with the Israeli government for creating the stereotype or on those applying it?

And as to Veritas may she be dragged from her well and placed under the bowsprit of the next blockade runner.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 7 June 2010 1:34:18 AM
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Dear csteele,

You wrote: "Not of war nor revenge nor killing, all things that seem to come from the mouths of the most vocal, modern, self-called Christians."

There are Jews who do things I don't like. I don't refer to them as self-called or socalled Jews. They are still Jews as much as I am. Christians who do things you don't like are not self-called Christians. They are Christians as much as you are. The Jesus of the Bible didn't disavow people he didn't like. He associated with 'publicans and sinners.'

Christmas, Diwali and Chinese New Year are equally not my holiday. I have celebrated Christmas with Christian friends just as I have celebrated other holidays with friends of those persuasions. You seem to be missionising and want to push your holy day onto me.

Christian attitudes towards Christmas have differed. In colonial days Puritans in Massachusetts would fine people who took Christmas off. They didn't celebrate it and didn't want others to do so. I hope you have many Merry Christmases. I do not have the restrictive attitude of the Puritans. However, there is no more reason for me to celebrate it than for you to celebrate Purim which is a very joyous holiday.

The Israeli government is the government of a foreign country as is the government of Pakistan, France and China. None of those are my country. Get it! I support the good things they all do and oppose the bad things they all do. That is exactly the same attitude I have to my own country, the United States. I have been blamed for actions of the United States. I resent that also. George Bush never consulted me.

China has the death penalty, has persecuted and has killed an estimated 65,000,000 people in suppressions of restive provinces, the Great Leap Forward, the Culture Revolution and other madness. It is far worse than Israel. However, I see no reason to blame anyone of Chinese origin for that madness. It is not their country. By the same token Israel is not my country
Posted by david f, Monday, 7 June 2010 6:08:11 AM
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Keep up your pro Zionist propaganda, Custard, supporting Israel and Jews with legalistic nit-picking but without common sense or compassion, and you will help provoke the next holocaust!
Posted by Forkes, Monday, 7 June 2010 9:30:27 AM
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Dear davidf,

Your arguments, including those for personal disengagement, certainly had some validity until, may I suggest, you said “I feel a Christian is not in a position to lecture Israel”.

Echoes of 'Ye who is without sin cast the first stone' and possibly a touch hypocritical.

Whom would you regard as being in a position to lecture Israel? Only those like yourself who have renounced a belief in a deity? Well that would include myself so it must be more than that.

Perhaps only those who have disavowed themselves of any form of tribalism, who have become purely consumers of the 'baubles' of the various faiths, able to, with shall we say not an insignificant degree of disdain, dismiss the rest. (Okay, I recognise I could equally be charged with being dismissive but moving right along.)

By putting yourself in such a rarefied club might you be guilty of the sins you see in others?

Perhaps though you have sympathy for the words of Mendele Mocher Sforim; “To influence a people one has to be the bone of their bone, flesh of their flesh; one has to have suffered their sorrows and felt their pain.”

Even then as Noam Chomsky found out last week after being barred from entering Israel, this is not always possible.

Oh by the way I do get it.

Cont..
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 12:36:33 AM
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cont..

You said; “There are Jews who do things I don't like. I don't refer to them as self-called or so-called Jews. They are still Jews as much as I am. Christians who do things you don't like are not self-called Christians. They are Christians as much as you are. The Jesus of the Bible didn't disavow people he didn't like. He associated with 'publicans and sinners.'

I think this needs some bedding down. Of course those born of a Jewish mother are deemed Jewish without qualification. Leaving aside Jewish converts I would have thought it would be a nonsense to call such a person a non-Jew because of the racial aspects of the religion. If I on the other hand were to sudden start calling myself Jew I doubt I would be regarded as such. (I have called myself gay for a day when a mate needed some solidarity against some homophobia but even then...)

The KKK regard themselves as a Christian organisation but I have the freedom to hold them to account for that claim, and challenge it if I so please purely by my measure. However I did choose my words carefully. All referring to themselves as Christian are by definition self-called because there is no hard and fast rule the entire faith agrees on about what makes a Christian. So why not adopt behaviour as the measure, it would seem as good as any.

I will admit to a certain romanticism about christianity, probably naively given my lack of faith but in answering Hamlet, my philosophy has some pretty big dreams.
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 12:39:55 AM
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Dear csteele,

I am quite tribal. I identify strongly with being a Jew. However, I do not identify with Israel. It is not my country. I am not a citizen of the country and do not intend to go there. I have great sympathy for the words of Sforim. However, Israel and the Jewish people are separate entities. I am wrong in saying a Christian should not lecture Israel.

Noam Chomsky is tremendously interested in Israel. Apparently you have some interest in it also. However, I don't feel I should be a subject for your lectures on Israel. To me it is another foreign country which does not have the separation of religion and state that I think is proper for a democratic country. That also applies to Australia.

You repeat the equation of being Christian as being something good. My definition of a Christian is equivalent to my definition of a Jew. A Christian is one who identifies as a Christian and is accepted by the Christian community as a Christian. A Jew is one who identifies as a Jew and is accepted by the Jewish community as a Jew. Those definitions make no judgment about behaviour. I have made judgments about Christian behaviour in the light of their horrible history. However, one may behave quite decently and still be a Christian. Many Christians are quite decent people. I think it self-serving to adopt behaviour as a measure as being a member of a group as members of a group commonly think of themselves as behaving better than those who are not part of the group.

However, my definition makes the KKK Christian. They are Christian in the judgment of the part of the Christian community they belong to. Whether you or I approve of their behaviour has nothing to do with their identification as Christians.

Part of the Jewish tradition is not to glorify militarism. By the number of generals in high positions in Israel it does not follow that tradition.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 1:57:15 AM
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Dear davidf,

You continue to protest my apparent wielding of the proverbial tar brush with respect of Israel and your good self.

Being at a loss as to how I found myself in this position I have gone back over our posts and have come to the conclusion I may well be a straw man of your own creation and to paraphrase the Bard, 'You doth protest too much!'.

Leaving aside the very large tar brush you yourself were slapping around when you first addressed me on this thread, perhaps it was my post of June 5 that inadvertently pushed your buttons. It contained a paragraph about the Israeli cabinet which was my sleep deprived effort to keep my post relevant to the topic. The intent was not to equate you with the actions of the state of Israel but I now see your words “I resent the flaws of Israel being put on me” were referencing myself rather than the world in general.

I am willing to play the role created for me and in that light I ask can you really expect that to many the actions of the 'self proclaimed' Jewish nation of Israel, one containing such a high proportion of the world's Jewish population, not reflect on all Jews regardless of the fairness of it?

Acknowledging my lack of eloquence may I turn to Aesop's tale of The Two Pots.

An Earthen Pot and one of Brass, standing together upon the river's brink, were both carried away by the flowing in of the tide. The Earthen Pot showed some uneasiness, as fearing he should be broken, but his companion of Brass bid him be under no misapprehension, for that he would take care of him. O, replies the other, keep as far off as ever you can, I entreat you; it is you I am most afraid of: for, whether the stream dashes you against me, or me against you, I am sure to be the sufferer; and therefore I beg of you do not let us come near one another.

Guess I'm the kettle.
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 11:55:08 AM
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Dear Kettle,

I agree it is natural and unfair for the actions of Israel to reflect on all Jews. Until I was in my twenties the state of Israel did not exist. I identify with my homeland which is the United States of America. Once in a gathering a man came up to me and said, "I'm going to tell you something you're not going to like." Then he launched into a criticism of the US foreign policy and its connection with Israel. I said I had the same criticism and asked why he put that on me. He said, "Because you're an American."

I'll tell you a story about the traditional attitude of Jews toward militarism before Israel.

In Czarist Russia a Jew was conscripted into the army. He turned out to be a wonderful soldier. he could march long distances carrying heavy loads. His uniform was always kept up with buttons shined and shoes polished. He was the top marksman in his unit. He never made a mistake in close order drill. His commander was proud of him.

Then the Russo-Japanese war broke up, and his unit was sent to the front. His commander standing next to him in the trenches pointed to the Japanese and said, "Now, Shmuel, demonstrate your marksmanship."

"But, captain, there are people over there!"

One thing I like about General Monash was that, unlike the Israeli generals, he did not use his military charisma to go into politics. A group of rich Australians wanted him to take over the country, but he was a staunch democrat and refused.

D. H. Lawrence’s book, “Kangaroo”, is a highly fictional account inspired by the incident.

However, it is better to try to be objective rather than judging a group by behaviour. When you judge the KKK you seem not to regard them as Christian because they do not behave in the way you think a Christian should behave. If I judged them by their behaviour I would say they were very Christian since they behave in a way that Christians often have behaved.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 2:23:12 PM
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Dear Earthen Pot,

Kind of you to shake the ghost of Sir John. My favourite thing about the great man was when he was asked to name his greatest achievement he replied it was the role he played in delivering the State Electricity Commission to the people of Victoria against the wishes of some very powerful interests. It was only when Jeff Kennett came to power that those interests were served again with the privatisation of the energy sector in this state. There was not a mention about his military achievements.

There is a bridge quite close to where I live that he built but the shires concerned never paid the final bill. Rumour is still strong to this day around the shire that there was anomosity because he was a Jew. He was left deeply in debt.

But more pertinent to our discussion; from the Australian Dictionary of Biography; “Habitual flirtation led to several embarrassing close associations and eventually, in 1888-89 to a tempestuous affaire with Annie Gabriel, a non-Jewish married woman. In September 1889, in a markedly unstable condition, Monash reached the point of attempting to abscond with her to another colony and thus, in disgrace, to abandon his cultural heritage—but just in time her husband carried her off to Sydney.”

Surely the abandonment of 'his cultural heritage' would have been the result of his behaviour.

First you lull me with tales of the East then deliver a swift poke in the kidneys as you finish. “If I judged them by their behaviour I would say they (the KKK) were very Christian since they behave in a way that Christians often have behaved.”.

Your call for objectivity is in many ways correct as it becomes a little nonsensical since a case could as easily be made with about as much veracity that they were very Jewish since they behave in a way that the Israeli government has often behaved.

However there are those who seek from their faith a higher standard to aspire to, and to hold others to. It is not an ignoble quest.

Cont..
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 10:09:27 PM
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Cont..

I have quoted this before on OLO but I have cut and pasted it here as it deserves another airing.

From Romanovich’s dream in Dostoyevski’s ‘Crime and Punishment’;

"I'll show you! Stand off," Mikolka screamed frantically; he threw down the shaft, stooped down in the cart and picked up an iron crowbar. "Look out," he shouted, and with all his might he dealt a stunning blow at the poor mare. The blow fell; the mare staggered, sank back, tried to pull, but the bar fell again with a swinging blow on her back and she fell on the ground like a log.

"Finish her off," shouted Mikolka and he leapt beside himself, out of the cart.

Several young men, also flushed with drink, seized anything they could come across--whips, sticks, poles, and ran to the dying mare. Mikolka stood on one side and began dealing random blows with the crowbar. The mare stretched out her head, drew a long breath and died.

"You butchered her," someone shouted in the crowd. "Why wouldn't she gallop then?"

"My property!" shouted Mikolka, with bloodshot eyes, brandishing the bar in his hands. He stood as though regretting that he had nothing more to beat.

"No mistake about it, you are not a Christian," many voices were shouting in the crowd.

But the poor boy, beside himself, made his way, screaming, through the crowd to the sorrel nag, put his arms round her bleeding dead head and kissed it, kissed the eyes and kissed the lips.... Then he jumped up and flew in a frenzy with his little fists out at Mikolka. At that instant his father, who had been running after him, snatched him up and carried him out of the crowd.

End quote.

I agree with the crowd.
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 10:12:15 PM
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Dear csteele,

Any religion that I know of does not accept lechery although it has been the prerogative of people in high places. Never having been in high places I do not know if I would be any better than Monash. I doubt that lechery was one of Howard’s sins, but I still greatly prefer Monash.

As far as defining a group by their behaviour that is one Christian idea I accept. Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Dostoyevskii apparently shares your prejudice. He wanted to spread Orthodox Christianity. You may find agreement with most Christians in equating the word, Christian, with good, but I doubt whether most, if any, non-Christians use the word that way. If you confine your discourse to Christians you may have no problem. I find the usage offensive regardless of who uses it. I have heard an uncle say, “Don’t be a goy. Give the man a drink.” Also offensive.

I have a Marxist acquaintance who has said that a real Marxist would not beat his wife. His Marxists beliefs have a millennial twist. He seems to sincerely believe that there will be a final battle at which the forces of Marxism will emerge triumphant. He believes that being a Marxist means being a good person.

I don't think we have to be limited to our faith to seek a higher standard. One may sometimes find it outside of our faith. One fault of mine is letting a preoccupation become an obsession.

Two Buddhist monks approached a stream and found a young woman on the bank who was afraid to cross. The monks crossed and one of them picked up the woman and carried her to the other side. They walked along for a while, and one spoke up, “Our order forbids touching a woman, yet you picked her up and carried her.”

“I put her down when we got to the other side. Why don’t you.”

That also carries the meaning that human kindness should override religious commandments.

continued
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 7:21:36 PM
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continued

John 14:6 states: "No one comes to the Father but by me" There is no comparable statement in Jewish scripture. One does not have to believe in Judaism to be accepted as a good person. However, one is supposed to lead a righteous life. One who leads a righteous or good life is not defined as Jewish. However, you seem to use the word, Christian, that way.

Some Christians believe in original sin. Jews don’t. Each of us is responsible for our own sins. We can neither take up someone else’s sins or put our sins on another. Whatever we believe cannot wash away our sins. Even those who have a literal belief in the Bible accept that guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve died with them. The idea of the scapegoat that existed in early Judaism has been discarded.

There are two kinds of sins, those against our fellow humans and those against God. No matter how much we pray or repent nothing can wash away a sin against another human being. The way we relieve ourselves of that kind of sin is to go to the person we have wronged and see if we can make up for it to that person. If we can’t do that we can try to behave better. If our good behaviour does not outweigh our bad behaviour we are not regarded as a good person no matter how sorry we are.

Sins against God are different. Penitence, prayer and charity will bring forgiveness for those sins. That is what Yom Kippur is about.

Unlike some branches of Christianity there is no hierarchy. A rabbi does not have a sacerdotal function the way a priest does. He is just supposed to be learned. Each congregation has the right to hire and fire. There are various organisations of congregations in different denominations, but each congregation has the right to withdraw.

Although there are some people who are highly regarded there are no saints. Even Moses because of flaws in his character was not allowed to enter the Holy Land.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 7:26:36 PM
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Davidf

Had to look up "sacerdotal", new word thank you.

I believe your criticisms of Christianity are quite valid. Judaism has always been a far more pragmatic religion than either Islam or Christianity - which do place more emphasis on the supernatural than the practical. Most of my Jewish friends identify more with the culture than strict adherence to the Torah and find the question of Israel a difficult and fraught one. None could be described as Zionists I guess and the latest fracas over the Gaza strip saddens everyone.

I can't see peace in the Middle East until religion takes itself out of politics, and even then there is the battle for oil resources. However, I never thought I'd see the end to the Berlin wall either. There is always hope.
Posted by Severin, Thursday, 10 June 2010 3:09:45 PM
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Dear Severin,

The following is mostly from another of my posts.

There is a way to end the long conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Jews. Recognise their connection!

Get rid of the barriers that keep related peoples apart.

From Alla Katsnelson. Jews worldwide share genetic ties: But analysis also reveals close links to Palestinians and Italians." Nature.com (June 3, 2010)

"Different communities of Jews around the world share more than just religious or cultural practices -- they also have strong genetic commonalities, according to the largest genetic analysis of Jewish people to date. But the study also found strong genetic ties to non-Jewish groups, with the closest genetic neighbours on the European side being Italians, and on the Middle Eastern side the Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians."

Give up the idea of a Jewish or a Palestinian state and work together to create a state which does not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity or religion.

Have one state with public schools which integrate all students regardless of ethnicity or religion. If parents want to send their children to other schools they or their religious organisation must pay the entire cost - not the taxpayers. That is a good idea for Australia, too.

Have civil marriage. As it is now marriages must be approved by either Muslim, Jewish or Christian clergy. Let all marry who they will.

Go to school together. Work together. Live together. There is already too much separation. It is stupid to postulate more separation as a solution.

Tear down the walls. Create a new and vibrant nation by reuniting two related peoples!
Posted by david f, Thursday, 10 June 2010 3:30:10 PM
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Davidf

Nowhere has apartheid worked, whether it is between sexes, races or religions. I agree with your sentiments, however, there are too many who wish to hold power such as it is and do not understand cooperation - seeing it as a weakness.

The old adage, "united we stand, divided we fall" is as true as it ever was, with the power-mongers using division to disastrous effect.
Posted by Severin, Friday, 11 June 2010 9:46:01 AM
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Dear Severin,

I see it more as a continuous process. Groups of humans unite. Then they fall apart into the same or different groups. Then they reunite. And so on.

Yugoslavia and Russia united disparate elements. Then they fell apart.

The same is true for the Roman, British and all empires.

It is a dynamic process.

I think it is approaching time for the various elements in the Middle East to unite. Then they will separate.
Posted by david f, Friday, 11 June 2010 11:00:46 AM
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Dear David

I do agree that no system is static, however, has there ever been a time in recent recorded history where the various nations in the ME have been united?

I not only doubt that Israel and Palestine have the necessary courage to compromise, but there are external vested interests preventing any solution in the near future.

However, after the world has kicked the oil habit - anything is possible.

Regards
Posted by Severin, Friday, 11 June 2010 12:23:38 PM
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Dear Severin,

The answer to your question depends on your definition of 'recent recorded history.' When a Chinese official was recently asked his opinion of the French Revolution he said it was too early to tell.
Posted by david f, Friday, 11 June 2010 1:52:55 PM
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Davidf

http://www.tinyurl.com.au/au9

Dianne
Posted by Severin, Saturday, 12 June 2010 10:59:06 AM
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Dear Severin,

Wonderful answer.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 13 June 2010 5:25:01 AM
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Davidf

Perspective does indeed change with time.

Consider yourself hugged.
Posted by Severin, Sunday, 13 June 2010 11:07:19 AM
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Thanks, Severin,

I am sneezing and very infectious at the moment. Am not even hugging my dear wife, but a hug on the net does not spread anything but good feeling.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 13 June 2010 1:09:01 PM
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