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The Forum > General Discussion > White and Silver Ribbon day

White and Silver Ribbon day

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I've been trying to work out how I want to deal with White Ribon Day.

On the one hand I'm very happy to take a stand against DV. I think that we do need to get the message across that DV is wrong. The issues around male violence against women have been well canvassed and probably don't need repeating here.

On the other hand I'm disgusted by the continued lack of recognition of the plight of male victims of DV.
- I'm disgusted by the fairly widely accepted viewpoint that when the victim is male "he must have deserved it".
- I'm disgusted by the marriage counsellors and others who told me "she's smaller than you so she won't really hurt you" when confronted with my former wifes habit of punching me.
- I'm disgusted that we still see add's on television which portray female initiated DV in a positive light.
- I'm disgusted that when I see stats talking about the proportion of women who will suffer violence at the hands of a male partner I never hear the equivalent rates for men.
- I'm disgusted that I continue to hear about protecting women and children from men while the stats on substantiated child abuse, neglect and death are very clear that women are at least equally involved if not more so as the perpetrators of harm to children.

I'm considering getting myself a silver ribbon and wearing it alongside a white ribbon on "white ribbon" day.

A statement that I'm against all domestic violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator or victim.

I'd rather just wear a white ribbon with the organisers saying that all DV is wrong but they seem unwilling to make that point.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 8:41:39 PM
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Robert,

I'm not being sarcastic or mean, but do you really have to "deal with it" at all?

I have no time at all for sensationalist campaigns like the one using really creepy commercials about domestic violence; and I was more put off than usual to find that a game show host is involved. The worst thing is the father jumping in front of a bus with his daughter watching. Really disgusting!

I understand and share you hatred of domestic violence but, unless it affects you personally, there is nothing at all you can do by worrying about how "deal with it". Best to reserve your mental energy for things you might be able to change, I think.

I empathise with your other points, but there's not much we can do about them either. I was something of a mess until I learned how to switch off things I had no control over. Sometimes you have to be hard and aloof to survive, with all of the crap - some real and serious, some not - that is rammed down our throats by strangers.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 16 November 2006 10:11:43 AM
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Female domestic violence is just as damaging to children as male domestic violence and on that one count alone must be addressed. As long as female violence goes unrecognized, it will go on unrestricted.

I have been trying for years to get any media outlet at all to canvas the issues of female violence within families and I have found that there is a media blackout on female violence. No-one will publish anything about it. It doesnt matter how relevant or compelling your sources, eg the following meta-study summarized studies covering more than 164,000 participants and found that women were just as physically violent as men but no media wanted to know:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

The just released Personal Safety Survey from the Australian Bureau of Statistics found that over 30% of all criminal physical assaults in the home between opposite sex partners were cases of women attacking men. Australian figures, brand new, controversial, absolutely impeccable source, culturally vital - everything a news item should be but no-one would touch it.

There is an extraordinary attitude among women to violence against men. A trailer for new movie called Holiday featuring Cameron Diaz featured the heroine elbowing her partner in the jaw and then kneeing him in the groin. This behaviour is presented not only as acceptable but admirable. The double standard involved when 'there is never any excuse for a man to use physical violence against a woman' is obvious. Murray Straus found in a survey that, "More than half of women questioned at a Glasgow university said they approved of wives hitting their husbands."

Personally I think that female physical violence is the tip of the iceberg as women tend to use emotional weapons like relational aggression to destroy people much more frequently and more deftly than they use physiucal violence. I doubt that there will ever be effective legislation over the subtle forms of violence that women use so effectively - women must abandon these forms of violence voluntarily based on the realization that violence within families, any kind of violence, is bad for everyone.
Posted by Rob513264, Thursday, 16 November 2006 11:26:02 AM
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Rob, well said. Any thoughts on the use of an extra ribbon as a means to draw some attention (even if small) to the DV that official outlets don't want to touch?

Leigh, thanks for the feedback. I expect that I will have to deal with it on some level. I expect that my walk from the train station to my office will involve people either trying to sell or give me a white ribbon (not sure which way that is being approached). Yes I can say "no thanks" and brush past but that isn't portraying how I feel about DV.

It's quite likely that the office will have some kind of recognition of the day happening.

I've got female friends who have been on the end of violence and seen and read enough not to willingly dismiss the harm done to women by DV.

I've been on the recieving end of DV in the past and felt the powerlessness that comes with having nobody else taking female initiated DV seriously. I've talked to enough other men who've been in the same boat to know how harmfull the current denail of female initiated violence is. I'm a single dad who may in the future have to deal with court systems and relationship centers (or whatever name they go under) obsessed with male initiated DV. I've seen the way the issue is played by the mothers groups to oppose shared parenting.

It's not an issue that I feel I can ignore. I don't know if I will manage to change anything but do hope that enough of us keep saying that "no DV is OK" the tide may eventually turn.

Someone in a place of power may eventually ask themselves why their campaigns have to specify "violence against women" rather than speaking against all violence regardless of the gender of the victim(even if they do think that men constitute a very small proportion of the victims).

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 16 November 2006 11:53:30 AM
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Robert, agree with the need to universalise the message to all inclide all violence, be it domestic or otherwise. Wear that ribbon mate and do your best to help when you can, its all we can and should do. Just know that there are many men and women who support your views. The more often we say no to violence the more it (non-violence) becomes part of our social norms. One voice is as important as many.

"Non violence means people in action. People have to understand that with non-violence goes a hell of a lot of organization."
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 16 November 2006 9:14:09 PM
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RObert

I feel that white ribbon day is a necessary campaign, and I totally agree with you that it is disgusting that only men are associated with DV.
It should be a day to condone domestic violence regardless of which sex is being the aggressor.
It's important to draw attention to this- the campaign should not just focus women as victims.
The ribbon should be a unisex ribbon; anyone should be able to wear it; we need a ribbon against ALL DV.

In fact, I have just decided to wear the ribbon in support of male victims- people might ask me why I, as a woman, am wearing this ribbon and I will tell them that I don't condone DV by women.

Women can be just as violent as men. They are even more likely to throw things, bite, punch, pull hair, kick and squeeze, and use weapons to attack with.
Yet, only men are seen as aggressors.

The message which the campaign posters are presenting is clear: women are not aggressive or violent, merely scared and sad. It’s the men that behave violently, usually against women and children, and sometimes against other men.

Rob is right; this attitude is reflected in movies.
And we all know the (funny) cartoons in where a usually big, fat woman attacks her usually smallish, wimpy husband with a fry pan. Imagine if the roles in those comics were reversed and it was the man bashing up the wife with a weapon for the sake of a good laugh! People would protest rather than laugh about these comics.

In the past, men were publicly ridiculed when they dared complaining about the violent wife! It was shame on patriarchy, a sign of weakness on the male part.
Would that be the reason why men hardly ever report DV? Do they still feel that others would see them as weak wimps that should be laughed at?
Men must be encouraged to report DV.

Because DV against men still seems to be taboo, all the more reason for including this problem in the campaign against DV
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 17 November 2006 12:25:59 PM
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Posted by Celivia, Friday, 17 November 2006 12:25:59 PM
"In the past, men were publicly ridiculed when they dared complaining about the violent wife! It was shame on patriarchy, a sign of weakness on the male part.
Would that be the reason why men hardly ever report DV?"

In 1990 when I reported my wife threatening to shoot me (twice and in front of the children) to a Domestic Violence Unit they actually said, 'we only handle complaints of violence against women'. When I rang the police that actually laughed down the phone.

I know procedures are changing, slowly, but attitudes are pretty entrenched. There are lots of reasons why men dont report DV not least of which is that we are the ones who are likely to be punished. Murray Straus tells the story of a man who was watching TV when his wife came home drunk and stabbed him. He called the police and they threw him in gaol and left him with an unattended knife wound all night.

The presumption in this culture is that if there is an attack, the man is the perpetrator and the woman is the victim, irrespective of all else. This misconception was consolidated by the recent so-called DV campaign which ALL perpetrators were male and ALL victims were female. That was disgraceful, I have complained to the Ombudsman about it but I didnt even get an acknowledgement of my complaint.
Posted by Rob513264, Friday, 17 November 2006 2:03:10 PM
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I'm going to be away for a couple of days so thanks to those who have given feedback so far.

The sooner society start saying NO to all relationship violence the better.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 17 November 2006 6:42:00 PM
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RObert: I forgot to comment on your idea for an auxillary ribbon. I think silver would be a bit subtle - black would be more appropriate as Male Victims are invisible.

Black might however be already taken by some other ribbonization campaign. Maybe something a little more dramatic and instead of a ribbon have a little noose. I suggest this because while men tend to kill women by homicide, women tend to kill men by driving them to suicide.

Women do this by exactly the same means they use to attack anyone else, including each other, ie with malicious gossip, relationship sabotage and character assassination. The difference is that usually these tactics can only destroy relationships of minor value, after marital breakdown however women usually have the opportunity to poison the relationships between men and their children – this is an incredibly devastating loss particularly to men who were truly devoted to their children. By sabotaging men’s relationships with their own children, they cut men adrift emotionally/psychologically and there they let them rot – until in the end we finish it ourselves.

Ironically, this type of treatment not only stops men from ever committing to another relationship but [i] it is the guys who really care about their families and kids who are most affected [/i], so not only are women knocking guys out of ‘the market for relationships’ with this type of treatment, they are knocking out all the most caring guys.

I don’t think this is being over dramatic, I think women understand very well how devastating the loss of the relationships with their children would be to them and on some level they know that men are just as devoted to their children as are women.
Posted by Rob513264, Saturday, 18 November 2006 12:27:33 PM
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Ranier is right-'one voice is as important as many'.

Domestic violence is so ingrained into Australian culture that we should never deter any attempt to highlight the damage it does in families.

Australia says no.
Posted by holyshadow, Saturday, 18 November 2006 1:34:33 PM
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Rob, I think the idea would be more effective if it does not look like a protest against white ribbon day, rather adding the part of the message that the promoters of the day refuse to say - "all relationship violence is wrong".

I'm hoping that something like a silver ribbon (the colour is not the issue) worn in conjunction with the white is something that those who support white ribbon day but are tired of way the issue is portrayed can comfortably take on. It's hard to argue against - a simple message that says no to all relationship violence.

The white ribbon is not a photo of a womans black eye, it's not a bullet or a cast from a broken arm. There are images that could be used to play on stereotypes of male violence that are not used.

It's a simple symbol with a message attached, staying at the same level of symbolism, and adding to the message rather than taking away from it is in my view a more effective way of addressing the issue than dramatic statements.

R0bert.
Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 19 November 2006 7:54:34 PM
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Rob,
I’m appalled that even as recent as 1990 you were not taken seriously. I certainly hope that attitudes have changed since then. The police and Domestic Violence Units need to be re-educated- there still seems to be the believe that when women lash out, they only do so in self-defense. I don’t really have any idea whether there have been positive changes recently.

It would be good if the white ribbon could have a navy or blue stripe to symbolize that men can also be victims of DV. I wonder if we could draw this stripe on it with a marker- not sure if a marker would run and destroy the ribbon- but perhaps a blue blot is better than no mark at all ;)
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 20 November 2006 1:33:40 PM
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Celivia, I've had three different marriage counsellors say that my ex hitting me was not a real concern because she was smaller than me and unlikely to do real harm. All seemed to accept the idea that it was OK for her to hit me because she did not like the way I was standing (even when I was driving a car) or because she did not like something I said.

Most if not all were in this decade, not the previous one.

I've been told that at least one local police station has been given instructions not to attend DV situations where the alleged victim is male unless a weapon is involved but can't verify that.

I've posted a link to the Queensland Health summary of DV previously http://www.health.qld.gov.au/violence/domestic/default.asp

We've all seen the completely one sided portrayal of DV in the federal governments "Violence Against Women - Australia Say NO" campaign. Significant protest at the time got the responsible minister to make at least one public comment condemming all relationship violence but the campaign did not change.

The public comments I've seen about white ribbon day reflect a similar approach.

I've not seen anything to suggest that there is any notable improvement in public attitudes to DV where the victim is male, if anything it may be getting worse as we continue to be bombarded with the message that DV is an issue of male violence.

I doubt that much will change until people start accepting that relationship violence is never OK regardless of who does it or who receives it. Another reason for an extra ribbon (or stripe, ink blot or whatever).

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 20 November 2006 3:30:17 PM
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RObert,
It’s unbelievable that even marriage counselors did not take the matter seriously. I’d have expected them to be supportive of victims of DV and had no idea that men would receive so little or no help.
As you said, there is a huge need for creating more awareness and for people to start accepting that ALL DV is unacceptable.

Not only is this discriminatory, but scary as well. What are men supposed to do to get help?
Male victims of DV might be driven to suicide attempts even more so than women since they cannot rely on help.
They may receive psychiatric help only after a suicide attempt which they wouldn't have needed if there had been support in the first place.

Or they may have to rely on organisations like the Salvation Army.
I can’t see why women’s refuge centres can’t cater for male victims as well. We have to think of the children involved too- male victims might want to go a safe place with their kids rather than leaving them behind with a mad woman.

Enough police officers in every region should be trained as certified professionals who know how to handle victims and perpetrators of DV regardless of the sex of victims.

Apart from wearing 2 ribbons or painting stripes on the white ribbon or women also wearing the white ribbon in support of violence against men, perhaps we should all write to the organisers of White Ribbon day.

Look at this link, http://www.whiteribbonday.org.au/index.cgi?tid=127 which I just found when searching for the organisers of the white ribbon campaign.
Louisa Graham
Executive Officer
UNIFEM Australia
admin@unifem.org.au

“…the White Ribbon Campaign is motivated by the fundamental belief that *all* forms of violence are wrong, whether their victims are female or male, and whether their perpetrators are male or female. “

Well, they might say that they support males as well as females, but this is not reflected in their posters and other forms of campaigning.
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 8:10:56 AM
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I just want to say that I had a prompt reply from the campaign manager so as you see it is worth writing to her (see email address in previous post) to express concerns.

Dear...

Thank you for taking the time to give us your comments. We receive a great many items of feedback both positive and negative. Whilst we do not have the time to reply to all, all comments are logged and taken into consideration for future strategies.

Louisa Graham
Campaign Manager
White Ribbon Day
UNIFEM Australia
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 9:01:38 AM
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Celivia, thanks for that link. The site does much better than most in their acknowledgement of the significance of violence against men.
I was pleasantly surprised after what I'd seen of the promotional material for "White Ribbon Day".

I disagree with the logic in idea that relationship violence against women is more effectively treated in isolation.

I supect that a proportion of the violence they seek to stop comes from men who have not been able to find another way to stop a violent spouse.

As you asked, where do men turn when they can't get support. One unfortunate option is to try and sort it out for themselves - just as that used to be one of the few viable options to stopping school yard bullies before teachers began taking the issue seriously.

Studies I've seen which seek to examine relationship violence impartially seem to show that in a significant proportion of violent relationships the violence is two way (and initiated by males and females in similar proportions).

Some of those will be because some people choose conflict laden relationships, others because those involved struggle to find a way to stop the cycle.

I do think that their message is blunted by limiting the message to violence against women and that the very narrow focus contributes to relationship violence rather than stopping it.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 9:28:45 AM
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I became interested in White Ribbon Day quite recently. An experience at Macquarie University left me feeling hopeless and alone and I realised that it is so important to change attitudes and cultures towards women in universities. Interestingly, some of my friends at uni chose to go with the person in power after I made a complaint about a prolonged period of sexual harassment by my thesis supervisor. The day he chose to abuse me became the day that the outcome became predictable. There would be no winners in this situation. I either had to give in and have sex with him for my marks, walk a fine line and don't piss him off (which was the line I initially walked), make a complaint or simply disappear. I had spent years getting into honours and had topped 5 units along the way. An excellent student by all accounts. Part of the global leadership group and the Golden Key Asscn (top 15% of students) at uni. When I broke contact, he knew I had information about his behavior and had not acquiesed to having sex so I became a huge liability. He ran the predictable smear campaign and got his lecturer friends and PhD students who were also friends of mine to cut me off. So I have now lodged a formal complaint. Did I want any of this as part of my university experience? No. Would my male peers likely ever expoerience what I went through as part of acquiring their degrees. Unlikely. So I support White ribbon day because it stands up for women like me and encourages me to be everything I can be despite the fear, intimidation, and ostracisation of some in the academic community. God help them, that's all I can say.
Posted by peonie, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 9:49:18 AM
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- I'm disgusted by the fairly widely accepted viewpoint that when the victim is male "he must have deserved it".

In fact only the TV and the womens trash rags take that view these days. Those on the ground, paticularly the womens shelters, know better.

- I'm disgusted by the marriage counsellors and others who told me "she's smaller than you so she won't really hurt you" when confronted with my former wifes habit of punching me.

Get hold of consumer protectin and get this scums licence revoked. Thats not the average counseller.

- I'm disgusted that we still see add's on television which portray female initiated DV in a positive light.

Me too. Like to get together with a few vidieo cameras and make a few gender reversed versions.?? And then send them to the advertising agencies.?

- I'm disgusted that when I see stats talking about the proportion of women who will suffer violence at the hands of a male partner I never hear the equivalent rates for men.

Erin Pizzey books "prone to violence" and "working with violent women" Banned for ten years but available again now.

I'm considering getting myself a silver ribbon and wearing it alongside a white ribbon on "white ribbon" day.

What I did, along with most of the men from the mens groups was

1/ Buy a ribbon
2/ In front of the stall,take out a red marker and draw a large red stripe down the centre of the ribbon. And then pin it on.
3/ When asked, by the stall holders "why"? tell them. "Thats the blood of half a million battered husbands and children bashed by mothers. That has never been reported.
Posted by sparticusss, Wednesday, 29 November 2006 6:34:55 PM
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sparticusss, welcome back.

The stripe one the white ribbon is a good approach, it was suggested earlier on the thread.

I've used my post allocation up on the main threads for a while, you suggestion that I need to retract my views about DV on the Male Myths thread is misplaced. I was quoting Booster who earlier made the comment I had in quotes (hoping to see that retraction). I've yet to see the promised retraction.

Some other good links to resources have gone up in on various threads recently.

There is abundant evidence out there that men are not overwhelmingly the perpetrators of DV, mostly those who insist on the view that DV is a male issue refuse to be drawn into discussion about the evidence.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 29 November 2006 7:07:42 PM
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Today Tonight has just run a story on Peter Brocks alleged wife bashings.

What disgusted me was the way the reporter just brushed past her absurd idea that domestic violence KILLS (That’s kills as in dead) more women than breast cancer, as if it were some sort of given.

Some sort of proven fact!


Now while most wife bashings are not reported those numbers are easily balanced by the number of false reports of wife bashings which are actually husband bashings.

But dead bodies?
A dead body is a dead body.
The body count is reasonably accurate.

The body count for breast cancer is a 2.5 thousand a year. The murder rate from domestic violence doesn’t even go into the dozens.

This ridiculous media sensationalism is the real cause of the problem. How can any real cop take the average report of wife bashing seriously when so many lies are being told.
Posted by sparticusss, Thursday, 30 November 2006 6:55:57 PM
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