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The Forum > Article Comments > The politics of tolerance - Israel and Palestine > Comments

The politics of tolerance - Israel and Palestine : Comments

By Sikni Hamka, published 23/11/2009

Israel is planning to build a Jewish museum on top of a Palestinian cemetery. It will be called the Museum of Tolerance.

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No biggie, people in countries all over the world build over cemetaries all the time, normally they move the bodies first to some other place. Land being a premium in that area, it's not surprising really.

Did they do that? Did the move the bodies and relocate the cemetary?

Are you saying they just ignored the bodies and built over it?

Are you inciting hatred by using this, without mentioning all available data to stir up emotion against Israel, isn't that a crime in Australia?

The Palestinians could do themselves a favor and be seen as a little tolerant by not firing missiles into Israel every day, by not importing weapons on ships from Iran. You only mention that Israel is lacking on tolerance, by omitting any reference to Palestinian violence and lack of tolerance you make it seem like it is completely one sided - it's not and we know it is not.

The fact that each side in the conflict is equally intolerant doesn't fit your "Palestine is a victim" rant does it?

Your article is as intolerant as all the other attacks by both sides, dressed up to be reasonable, but is designed to incite hatred.

I don't have any feeling either way for either party in this, but dislike the way people like you continue to foster hatred and adversity.
Posted by odo, Monday, 23 November 2009 8:52:48 AM
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Sikni

I suggest Israel would be a lot more 'tolerant' if the Arabs stop blowing up innocent people through suicide bombing on a regular basis. I doubt whether you would be very tolerant if you had to live with family members being killed by indoctrinated youth on a regular basis.
Posted by runner, Monday, 23 November 2009 8:57:43 AM
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From Wiki .. makes interesting reading and shows how skewed is this author ..

"In 2005, the Simon Wiesenthal Center's (SWC) Rabbi Marvin Hier announced plans to construct a "Museum of Tolerance and Human Dignity" in place of a four-story underground parking structure adjacent to Jerusalem's Independence Park. The park is on the grounds of Mamilla Cemetery." So there's been a carpark there for years .. read on ..

"The Mamilla cemetery contains the graves of many important Islamic saints and scholars, as well as several Mamluk tombs.[3][4] The SWC counters that the cemetery was long ago deconsecrated by Islamic leaders, and that secular Arab leaders prior to the creation of the State of Israel had planned various development projects there.[5] During Turkish rule, graves were moved from the cemetery to build a hotel. The hotel still stands, and is being renovated by Waldorf-Astoria."

Leaving out this information just reinforces my earlier point that this is being used for emotional incitement of hatred and violence.

You madam, are a liar by omission, and are despicable for not including some tolerance in an article dressed up to criticise intolerance by someone else.

You should be reported for inciting racial hatred. I'm surprised sch a hateful and deceitful piece of writing should appear in OLO.
Posted by odo, Monday, 23 November 2009 9:56:22 AM
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The most interesting thing about this "article" is how it

illustrates what poor quality "journalism" can be produced by someone

with a media studies qualification from Sydney University.
Posted by Seneca, Monday, 23 November 2009 10:31:06 AM
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Thank you for your comments

ODO: If you want to quote Wiki as a reputable source then you have to accept the following statement which also appears:

"One of the primary criticisms of the Museum of Tolerance is that its exhibits use excessive multimedia technology to appeal to and manipulate the emotions of children. The museum uses fast-paced skits, dioramas, films, and interactive computer-controlled exhibits in an effort to make an emotional impact on visitors. For most of the tour, actual historical artifacts are absent, and a select few are shown at the end. Some critics have suggested that this is hypocritical, likening the use of emotionally-charged media to the propaganda used by the Nazi Party during the Holocaust."

Do you still want to quote it?

Seneca: "poor quality Journalism"? if you want to criticise my journalistic skills please highlight the lack of imbalance / truth in the article. Please substantiate your claim with evidence. And Please do not use wiki - the last time I checked it's not a reputable source (ask ODO) .

ODO: No they did not relocate the bodies. And I am not inciting hatred
- of course, you are entitled to your own interpretation.

However please note: "This was a contentious issue for some Israelis, hence the three-year duration of the trial" - contentious for both.

Why do I have to be against Israel to criticise it? Or does this mean I am pro-Hamas? How absurd.

This can go on forever
Posted by Sikni Hamka, Monday, 23 November 2009 11:25:13 AM
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Sikini ,
The Israeli "Museum of Tolerance" over an Islamic Cemetry is a joke if we take into account recent settler expansion .

The Museum of Acceptance is a much better plan for World Peace .

There are too many religious hard Righters in Israel trying to increase the size of their patch .

My guess is they dont want the Museum of "Tolerance" either .
Posted by kartiya jim, Monday, 23 November 2009 11:35:51 AM
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I agree, this artice is onesided, and , as such, best ignored.
Posted by Aspley, Monday, 23 November 2009 11:52:11 AM
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I came to your piece because of the headline and have concluded that you are indeed well on your way to being a sensationalist hack that ought to go into politics rather than offer their chronicling of the times. Agenda-based half-truths, non sequiturs and screaming hyperbole adds nothing to wisdom or knowledge. Starting with an sensationalist headline, you then give only half the truth about the cemetery, manage to quote the discredited and half-baked Lowenstein and finish off giving the boot to first John Howard and Australian racism. No logic - mere yelling.

In your response to comments, you then serve it up for quoting Wiki by using a quote that has nothing to do with anything relating to your point. The critique about the Museum being "fast-paced" etc is something which seems to be the fashion in new museums, but let me ask, how can a "planned" museum already be functioning in a way which invites criticism.

As you write vacuously taking in the post-modern perspective of truth being 'point of view' while adopting a highly moralising absolutist tone throughout, its a "matter of interpretation". Well, my interpretation is also that you are promoting hatred. Of course you will deny this, but look into yourself and see how much you really do hate.
Posted by Jackazoid, Monday, 23 November 2009 12:13:12 PM
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If it was China building on top of a Tibetan cemetary or North Korea building on a South Korean one, there would be outrage but this is Israel - a very special and unique case in the world.

However, exaggerations of "firing missiles every day" and "blowing up people on a regular basis" are as illustrative of inciting hatred as any of the supposed allegations in this article since they selectively ignore one side of historical fact.
Posted by wobbles, Monday, 23 November 2009 12:27:40 PM
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It seems the Israelies are getting more mentally dirty every day.

But what is making their minds so politically foul.

None other than the big stock of atomic weaponry that Pax Americana allowed them to have way back.

As a historian one gets so painfully reminded of the Crucifixion, where Rome and the Jews worked in unison to do away with Jesus.

So for Jehovah's sake wake up Netanyahu, for you'll need more than an atomic arsenal to save you.

And that's talking about Iran, for please remember that with all America's power, she has been put mentally on the run by Iran at least two times.
Posted by bushbred, Monday, 23 November 2009 12:50:36 PM
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I found the article insightful and well written. It seems whenever any publications are made regarding the supposed conflict (and I stress the word "supposed" as it is clearly a one sided affair) the authors get crucified for not siding with Israel's interests. How can it even be called a conflict when on one sided you have a $6 billion army backed by most western powers, and the other side armed with rocks and pipe bombs, hardly advanced warfare. There is a stigma thrown at anyone who seems to disagree with Israel's interest and the George Bush classic which is clearly adopted by "odo", of "your either there or here". The fact you had to state your "feelings" about not been the slightest interested in either side should have by definition keep your lard ass on the fence struggling to hold your weight. Lets remember Israel began the occupation because Britain and Europe alike did not want them in the first place. This was a little thing called the British mandate. Look it up in wiki "odo", since your sourcing is of the upmost credibility. Also can you please direct me to the paragraph the author asks the readers to arm themselves and spread violence and hatred
Posted by grrrr, Monday, 23 November 2009 1:18:31 PM
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As for "runner", your absolutely right. We should all wait until all the conflicts in the world cease before Israel should exercise some restraint against people who are clearly suffering in ghettos and squallers, deprived from the basics of rights, let alone food and water and sanitation. That's from the latest EU and UN reports about the conditions these people live in. If your reading goes past "telegraph statements" you should look into the reasons why monks during the 50's chose to set themselves on fire rather than live. When you take away what makes a person a being, then what is there to live for? While we are waiting for this happen maybe you should do humanity and yourself a favour and read what goes through the human mind before any suicide attempt. I'll start you on some examples since according to people like you, who insist we constantly wait for magical things to occur, begin with Japans Kamikazes and proceed to the first suicide bomber attempt, and you will maybe increase your brain capacity to two brain cells. Its easy so write off an entire race of people who have existed peacefully for 50 generations in occupied Palestine's, isn't it "runner"? Have you even read their history prior 1939 occupation? Have you even bothered to understand what happened to them and why they are ready to give up their lives than see another day? Do you even realise that their children are been treated with the same traumatic disorders seen in war veterans who arrived back from Vietnam, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq?
Posted by grrrr, Monday, 23 November 2009 1:22:52 PM
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Dear all,

Let me refer to an article written back in 2007 titled "Lithuanian government considering building over ancient Jewish cemetery"
By: Israel Insider staff
Published: August 23, 2007.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/896589.html

This is an excerpt:

Unfortunately the Lithuanian government and the Vilnius municipality are not sensitive to such an important issue. This could not happen in a [western] European state," said the Chief Rabbi of Lithuania, Chaim Burshtein.

The cemetery was closed by the Tsarist Russian authorities in 1831 and partly built over. In the 1950s, Soviet authorities built a stadium and concert hall, but allowed the remains of the Vilna Gaon, Elijah ben Shlomo Zalman, to be removed.

Jews say the burial ground is still sacred and no work should take place to disturb any remains. "There is no such thing as a 'former' Jewish cemetery," Burshtein said.

Me: So, "there is no such thing as a former Jewish cemetery" but there is a such thing as a former Palestinian cemetary? Was the Chief Rabbi "inciting hatred" when protesting against the construction of a block of apartments on top of a Jewish cemetary - I don't think so.
Posted by Sikni Hamka, Monday, 23 November 2009 2:11:57 PM
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Thank you for writing this article, Ms Hamka.

It is a shame that so may of those who post here have the words to hate with, but none for care. Maybe some of them the sort of people George Orwell thought of when he conceived the Ministry of Love. It is a blessing that, on careful examination, few humans ever fit their stereotypes.

Bushbred, may I remind you that Jesus was a rabbi, and there were no "Christians" at the time of his execution.

State-sanctioned Christian anti-semitism dates back to the reign of the Roman Emporer Constantine. Echoing claims originated in the 4th century AD only make it easier for some folks to confuse all followers of Judaism with the most slavish followers of the current Israeli administration.
Posted by Sir Vivor, Monday, 23 November 2009 2:12:03 PM
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I thought the article was generally well-written, apart from a few spellos that shouldn't have got past an alert editor, but sheesh, you'd think the author was advocating drinking the blood of fluffy little kittens, judging by some of the hysterical comments already.
Posted by Clownfish, Monday, 23 November 2009 2:13:58 PM
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Sikni

There in lies the major problem with the internet and its maxim "have prejudice will express...no mental effort required."

What some of these posters don't seem to be cognizant of is that they are by and large indulging in the mirror image of what they accuse you of.

The idea that anything is balanced in Israel/Palestinian conflict is an Oxymoron in terms.

One of my criticisms of the media is the sensationalist WAY in which it displays so called "balance".

Usually it means quoting or allowing the two extremes to say their individual extremist sensationalized spin to maximize the popular apatite for simplicity and conflict. Both sell better than Objectivity. The result is neither inherently fair nor a true reflection of reality.
Reality is prosaic, day to day grind of living and ultimately death, nothing sensation.

Consequently I prefer objectivity to balance.

In this case, the act of trying to build a "museum to tolerance" there, is clearly another Oxymoron.

I submit that building the museum on that spot is objectively,(in that both sides would react hostilely to desecration of their respective graves) morally, reprehensibly insensitive and provocative if not racist.

As for stirring up hatred, that horse bolted once the plan was made public.

Consider it this way, what sort of shriek would ensue if a developer wish to build a museum to the glorification of indigenous culture over any cemetery full of Aussie graves?

We partitioned for Galipoli to become a memorial to our war dead there. Given it isn't our land and we were invading the Turkish response to Galipoli Bay is a lesson in tolerance/acceptance.

Israel's behaviour here however, is as subtle/sensitive and tolerant as a charge from Genghis Khan. As if the Israel/Palestinian conflict need more reasons to continue with it's unbalanced Carnage.

The protests of their supporters are simply trying to deflect rightful criticism.
Posted by examinator, Monday, 23 November 2009 3:17:36 PM
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The article is poorly written because it lacks a coherent structure: is it about "tolerance", a specific museum or what?
In addition it gravitates between personal comment and quotation from others without adequate linkage.

I do NOT quote from Wiki.
Posted by Seneca, Monday, 23 November 2009 4:25:31 PM
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I see the Israeli apologists are out in force,Runner,ODO and co are just par for the course,Israel can do no wrong, its a wonder the old and rather boring Anti Semitic slur did not get a run.
Damm those pesky Palestinians lads they should just cop have their land stolen by the settlers(murderers),be kicked out of their homes in East Jerusalem,the cheek who cares if you have deeds and titles this is given to us in the Bible.
Which must be about the most discredited book going around a fairy story,ever noticed how lots of the Settler (thugs) have US accents,
The land of what is now Israel was handed over to the Zionists by the Brits so they could get money to keep financing WW 1(blood Money?).
The Israelis who came in set about methodically dispossesed the Palestinians over the years,and have nearly succeeded in imposing Apartheid on the country,and have built the biggest concentration camp in the world.
But don't criticize it or the ministry of Propaganda and its pawns with scream blur murder,I think the article told the truth if you and the men from the ministry cant handle it to bad.
Posted by John Ryan, Monday, 23 November 2009 5:14:26 PM
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odo is correct.

whether or not the museum is insensitive, whether or not there is now cause to complain, to leave out the parking lot stuff was importantly, perhaps critically, misleading. if this was an honest oversight, sikni should acknowledge it and apologise for it immediately. if it was not an oversight, one has good reason to not bother further with whatever sikni writes.
Posted by bushbasher, Monday, 23 November 2009 6:13:17 PM
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Hello Sikni,

Well haven't you stirred up the propagandists. I think you've hit a nerve, and your writing should resonate with anyone fair minded who has a modicom of loathing of injustice.

Well done keep it up.

cheers
Posted by keith, Monday, 23 November 2009 6:17:35 PM
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Take note, Sir Ivor, that I did not mention Christianity, whioh did not start till after the Crucifixion, as every historian should know.

My main argument, of course, is how the Jews seem to final pal up with right wingers.

Except with the Nazis, of course, whom some writers say, saw through the Jews.

But what eventuated, of course, was Germany turning into a race of fiends treating Jews so horridly that the world is now allowing Israelies like Netanahu et al to get away wth much too much
Posted by bushbred, Monday, 23 November 2009 7:28:49 PM
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Nazi = National Socialist. Socialist, socialist, socialist. Nothing right wing in that name.

Is history now being rewritten to turn socialists into rightwingers or rightwingers into socialists.

What color is black yelled the crowd, white called black the historians and rudd whimped it doesn't exist!

Some people will try to explain away anything with the biggest falsehoods.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 11:18:41 AM
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Why all this concentration on some dumb museum and a graveyard?
The way I saw the article this was just used to introduce and illustrate the discrimination and "(in)tolerance" shown by israelis towards arab citizens.

"If your human rights are not for everybody then they are not rights they are just privileges".
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 11:29:41 AM
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Yes Mikk, you are correct it was used to introduce the article by attempting to inflame and skew passions at the outset, the rest of the article like water soup, no substance.

I do apologise for using Wiki folks, even though it was referenced, see those little numbers in the quote? Here's a reference you'll like even less http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/40380 I do note that the author got her quote from following a link from my Wiki reference, then denigrates Wiki, talk about selective. I agree, Wiki is like online graffiti, unless it is referenced, which my second quote was.

To all the hysterical ones who see right wing left wing nazi, jew, sympathiser everywhere, I don't care for your pompous analysis of "what I mean or meant", you are wrong, get over it.

I find it is insulting now as yesterday that the author is trying to inflame, here in Australia - that's my beef. I dont care about that region as they are all the same as each other, as the author proves, a bunch of conniving tricky and slippery liars.

grrr - get a grip, the frothing at the mouth routine just reflects on your poor grasp of anger management, reality and online opinion.

I still don't care one way or the other and feel sorry for the fools who have to see Israel related events as one of two options - you're the probelm with your polarised attitude and the perfect target for the original article, I see some of you loved it, how unusual!
Posted by odo, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 12:51:10 PM
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re "odo". If the article is so weak with no substance, how can it possibly incite so much hatred? Which one is it? Make up your mind – you are obviously in a state of confusion.


Regardless whether you agree or disagree with the article, the fact that you can accuse the author of inciting hatred and then say that you are indifferent about the topic is ridiculous.

BTW redeeming yourself by using one source reflects your lack of knowledge and insight. The article spoke about political tolerance using the Palestine / Israel conflict as an example. The author moves on to relate it to Australia’s own ideas about tolerance and what it really means.

And please where does “the author is trying to inflame, here in Australia - that's my beef”. When she was trying to promote acceptance of people? Don’t go accusing when you can’t back it up.

When she cleverly refutes your claims you attack her journalistic and writing skills. The only thing this article has incited for you is the realisation that you should never overestimate your own intelligence.

Why can't you keep on not caring and go away, and leave the online opinion to those who actually know what they are talking about?


re "Seneca". You are obviously still licking your wounds. Where is the discussion you provide? All you have done is attack her education, then u degraded the structure. what r u- the online fairy editor?? bring some valuable discussion with some references rather than just being so sadistically inclined.
Posted by grrrr, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 3:50:49 PM
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You still have a lot to learn, Keith.

National Socialism does happen to be extreme right-wing, while Communism is or was extreme left-wing.

In fact, Keith, most every time we observe the heading National it denotes right-wing parties such as the National Afrikaners in South Africa, or even the National Republicans back years ago in the USA.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 4:50:32 PM
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Let's also not forget that the term "Corporatism" was actually invented by a certain Mr Mussolini who headed a well-known Fascist government - another extreme right wing organisation.

Of course, Public Relations (another invented term that actually means Propaganda) has fixed any negative connotations.
Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:00:09 PM
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