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The Forum > Article Comments > Stemming the rising tide > Comments

Stemming the rising tide : Comments

By Mike Pope, published 2/9/2009

Those countries which decline to take effective action to reduce their carbon emissions should be compelled to do so.

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I agree that the carbon tariff must be on the table. A couple of problems though. Firstly few countries outside Scandinavia have the moral authority to impose such a tariff as they have yet to clean up their own act. Secondly it could be an administrative nightmare. For example steel wire from China might clearly have embodied CO2 but this is less clear for call centre services from India. I suggest an across the board punitive tariff of say 20% on top of landed costs. The tariff is removed when the exporting country meets benchmark carbon cuts.

Some people can't comprehend how we could penalise China and India when our per capita emissions are so much higher. However we don't have a population of over a billion people. Perhaps the middle class of both China and India is more like 0.3 billion each. If the rural poor are missing the benefits of industrialisation then middle class per capita emissions of each country may not be so different. Whether the 'bottom billion' in China and India have any chance of an air conditioned, frequent flying lifestyle is another issue. Possibly China and India could find the massive amounts of low carbon energy to help their poor. Australia's contribution may be to sell them gas and uranium rather than coal; all finite commodities however.
Posted by Taswegian, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 9:26:11 AM
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A carbon tariff would be an open invitation to retaliation.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments, the practicalities would be economic suicide.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 11:36:58 AM
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Just a couple of points:
Firstly- You've singled out Australia since it is the world largest exporter of coal. This is true, however, we are NOT the world's largest producer! Infact globally we are very minor players. Australia produces just a trifling 6% of the world's coal. ie., We are nobodies in the greater scheme of things and anything we do will have neglible effect to convince the top two consumers China and the USA (who are also the top two producers) to cut coal production or to use clean coal technologies. Does the economist in you really think the UN will ever enforce trade restrictions on both China and the USA?
Secondly- Let's assume that average sea height does rise a couple of meters. Well, the sea rises and falls a few meters everyday and yet very few people ever drown. They don't drown because they get out of the way. It's the same with an increase in average sea height-- people will simple move themselves and their belongings out of the way-- and they've plenty of time to do it, decades indeed!. This may at first seem quite impossible at first but look at this like this- how many people in Australia are living in a builing that is over 100 years old? Very, very few! How many are living in a building over 50 years old, the vast majority don't! Infact the majority of people are living in buildings less than a few decades old. In otherwords, if it takes 40+ years for the sea to raise we will have plenty of time to build new buildings to relocate people into. Also, remember to keep this in perspective: a rise of a few meters only directly effects a few 10's of million people around the world compared to the billions that are currently alive-- indeed more people will die from completely preventable dieases (projected from the current rate of deaths) in the next fifty years than will lose their property to your alleged 2-3 meter raise in sea levels.
-- continued below...
Posted by thinkabit, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 11:37:53 AM
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-- continued from above...
Similar arguments apply in the case of losing productive farm land-- If the sea were to raise, the framers will simply move out of the way and farm somewhere else. The cycle time that the average farmer farms the same piece of land is way less than 50+ years. Infact, to give you an example let me tell you about dad: Over thirty years ago, he bought a working banana farm. After a few years he sold that and moved down the road to where what was a once dairy land and started a new farm. After farming it for twenty something years with various sorts of fruit now he is thinking about retiring, selling the farm. Chances are the new owners will not farm but will grow houses instead. The first farm he had is already no longer a banana farm but a rural house with acreage. The point of this is that all these changes happened within 30 years and had nothing to do with climate-change but were solely economic decisions. The traditional economic cycles have a vastly greater impact on farming and land useage change than sea level rises ever will.

PS: On the question of whether sea-levels will rise, personally, from what I've read it seems far from settled- a lot more research needs to be done. Ultimately, time will tell.
Posted by thinkabit, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 11:39:40 AM
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"Those countries which decline to take effective verifiable action to reduce their emissions should be compelled to do so and they can be."

Yeah, and there will be war if we, or anyone else, tries to do this.

On the upside (if you were grotesque enough to view it this way), such a war would kill off such a huge number of people that global GHG production would diminish significantly.
Posted by BN, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 1:11:35 PM
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Mike, please, I was worried by your article and then saw you had worked for the most corrupt institution in the world "The Olympic Movement" mate second in that contest is the United Nations.
No one is going to do anything except try and load us up with some more taxes. No import duties but lots of huffing and puffing they are taking the michael out of you and your mates don't you know?
The world is still not going to end despite what you think.
The sea level is rising hey? Well how come we do not notice it? All the glaciers are melting, what! this has been going up and down for ever in fact 15,000 years ago the Northern Hemisphere was covered in ice due to an "Ice Age". Give this a google mate and have a bex and a lie down.
Ever thought of growing roses or gardening you will find it ultimately more rewarding.
Posted by JBowyer, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 1:47:16 PM
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You forgot to mention those glaciers and areas where ice is increasing.

Sea levels rising 2-3m by mid century means around 6cm per year. So far that has not started yet. I am checking it every morning at Pittwater.

Also prices for waterfront properties should come under pressure, however, buyers do not seem to be bothered by a sea level rise that no one has seen yet, except some computers in their vision.

I would appreciate if you could let us know where there was substantial rising of sea levels within the last 10 years.
Posted by renysol, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 2:44:32 PM
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Look out! The piece of string holding the sky up is breaking!
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 2:48:52 PM
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You people are idiots.
A 1 metre rise in sea level will hardly be noticed......until

The next big storm comes along. Then all your houses and farmland are gone overnight. Sea level rise will be a slow and steady process and wont be noticed until the catastrophic event that causes mass destruction.

Oh and the tariff should be on individuals not countries. Countries dont release carbon people do!
Posted by mikk, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 3:35:20 PM
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How many more of these damn fool articles are we going to get from this twit.

Yes the ocean is rising, except when it's falling, & any one who believes anything from the UN is an idiot, & then some. In fact if it has the mark of the UN on it, it's going to be a scam.

Before you print any more of this fools rubbish, could you please ask for some facts, rather than assertions be included.

Thanks.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 2 September 2009 3:52:39 PM
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Mikk please explain? How are we idiots? Water seeks its own level. Even allowing for tidal pull the water will rise everywhere but it has not. You are confusing water level rises with large storm events. Check it out there are actually categories of storms, 50, 100, 500 year events. The thing is that when that big one hits a lot of houses are washed away. Then no one will insure any re-building, for some years anyway. Then literally when the memory dies people quite sensibly build again. This has been going on in many places for ever mate. Also do not confuse storms with Tsunami events, they will happen approximately every 100 years. Krakatoa in the 1890's was three times the size of the 2004 one. I am staggered that no one has blamed Tsunamis of climate change.
It is all a nice little money gathering exercise. My suggestion is you drop all gas, electric and water from your house. Sell your car and then show us all by your example how to do it.
Unlike all the greens with their waterfront property.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 4 September 2009 8:12:44 AM
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MIKK

While you are selling your car and turning off your electricity etc. why don't you resign from your job as well, to show all the other people out there who will loose their jobs to reduce carbon emissions how easy it will be for them.
Posted by sharkfin, Saturday, 12 September 2009 12:22:44 AM
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