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The Forum > Article Comments > Engineering our future > Comments

Engineering our future : Comments

By Akhtar Kalam, published 6/8/2009

Demand for engineers remains strong everywhere - so why are there so few Australian graduates?

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I would think that it is not just industry that has to be concerned regards the lack of engineers and the lack of science graduates. The education system itself also has to become very concerned.

Headlines in a local paper in QLD recently:-

“STRAPED FOR CASH: OUR UNI IN STRIFE”

A number of local campuses of that QLD university may have to close down because of a lack of students
(mainly foreign students). The local campus of that university in at least one town in QLD does not even have a test tube on the entire campus, but runs about 50 social science courses instead.

The education of foreign students could become similar to the tourist trade. Australia may be flavor of the month for awhile, and then the tourists go elsewhere.

With the demise of science in our schools and universities, foreign students may begin to look elsewhere also, and in particular, they may look towards China to get an engineering or science degree.

Why not?
Posted by vanna, Thursday, 6 August 2009 1:22:22 PM
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This is an interesting article written by a keen young person. Unfortunately once outcomes based education came on the scene and a plethera of "soft" subjects became available and qualified for university entrance, the number of students opting to study higher level mathenatics and the physical sciences has dropped dramatically.

It is a little like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted. A lot of hard work and investment is needed if the situation is to be turned around. But government (state and federal) recognition of the important contribution mathematics and science makes to the quality of life in this country is urgently required.

Parents too, have a role to play so that the abilities of their children are not lost to careers in professions that focus more on the social fabric of life to the detriment of such things as the many branches of engineering.
Posted by Sniggid, Thursday, 6 August 2009 1:36:17 PM
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If one ever takes the late bus after work there are three professions that are well represented on it, all of the office holders look grey around the gills and all carry bulging briefcases with more to be done before the next day. None are particularly happy with their working conditions and pay.

They are engineers mostly civil and structural, accountants and lawyers and why are they so unhappy with their lot? Because they usually work in a partnership structure where clever entrepreneurs at the top have all adopted work models and management practices that consistently overload their workers.

Of all, I would say that the engineers have the most to contend with, all arguing that such necessary things such as time to spend with clients is not adequately provided for in the contracts they have foisted upon them. Nor do the estimated hours make any adequate allowance for the costs of managing a number of contracts at once. The engineers are more desk bound than most and for longer continuous spans of hours it would appear.

Then there is professional liability that goes on forever and greedy insurers.

Yes, there are better working arrangements for some engineers and not all is bleak, but what percentage are overworked and underappreciated cogs in an assembly line not designed for humans?

The remaining problem is that more women than men attend university and there are now more women than men in fulltime work. Given the deliberate skews in education and in the workplace to favour women that will not change.

Most women don't like engineering and even where they take it up, soon move away from the production line to administrative roles (or leave completely) and they also prefer flexible, reduced hours. The juggling of numerous contracts with impatient partners and clients is not conducive to casual nor flexible arrangements. Well not if you want to stay sane and enjoy a family.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 6 August 2009 2:00:26 PM
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Just honing in on this point "industry has been crying out for qualified civil, electrical and mining engineers for years now". Qualified doesn't equal engineering graduate. Industry has this nasty habit of wanting skilled staff but wanting others to create them. How many people graduate with engineering degrees that don't become professional practicioners? How many of the migrant engineers are driving taxis and waiting tables? In IT we supposedly have a skills shortage too, wouldn't think that judging by the number of degree holding graduates.
Posted by HarryC, Thursday, 6 August 2009 2:08:49 PM
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HarryC could be hitting a sore spot there when he talks about what industry wants and what industry is prepared to invest in people.

I keep hearing that engineers need to study hard for several or more years post university to get the skills they need to do their jobs. Where these additional, necessary skills are being learned experientially and largely through expensive (especially for the graduate) self instruction and trial and error (and effective in-service training and mentoring is rarely available), it would not be surprising if graduates eventually moved on to more satisfying work.

What really surprises me from many hours of chatting with older engineer friends is the stupidity and wastefulness of industry in preferring to lose older skilled workers rather than make some adjustments to their tasks to allow some flexibility so they can reduce work hours and maybe apply hard won experience in another, allied role which still has an engineering component (thus saving recruitment of new staff for the purpose).

Similarly, industry appears reluctant to make any investment in older workers or even keep up the interest, stimulation and skills through timely, planned job mobility, education and development. Burn-out and wastage of skilled workers is assured.

Around half of available engineers could retire during the next ten years and short-sighted senior managers (and engineering partners) are probably pushing them to go while wringing their hands and griping about the under-supply of 'skilled' engineers.

The easy way out will be to suck skilled workers in from other countries in the region, offering citizenship and family reunion as the enticement. Not an ethical approach given that those countries need their skilled workers more desperately than we do.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 6 August 2009 4:10:44 PM
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My experiences ... I graduated with first class honours and existing experience in commerce, but found it difficult to even gain interviews. When I started working, I found that there is very little technical work done here. When they say engineering, they should say project management. This happened in job after job.

I am now embarking on a new career. At my last engineering job, someone I went to university with outed me and my boss sacked me. Such a lovely culture engineers have there.

It's a shame. Engineering should be about creativity, finding solutions and improving things and processes. Instead, it seems to fear those things, which is why all the amazing new things come from overseas.
Posted by joannah, Thursday, 6 August 2009 7:02:55 PM
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Akhtar you gave the reason yourself, with even noticing, when you said our young engineer will earn $45,000 PA in his first job.

At this point our young engineer will be about 23 years old, with a considerable hex debt to repay, & will be having trouble raising enough money to buy the reliable car he needs.

The switch girl he says good morning to every day is also about 23 years old, & also earns $45,000 PA. She has no hex debt, has payed off a nice car, & saved enough money for a year off, for a trip to europe.

When she returns from europe, she will walk strainht back into a similar job. Her experience will be valued.

If, in 5 years, when our engineer has payed his hex debt, & saved some money, he decides to take a year off, & go to europe, there will be no walking back into a similar job for him. He will be considered "flightly" & unreliable, for quiting his previous job. His only hope is to find a similar job in the UK, while he's there, so his experience can be valued.

Now when our engineer goes down the factory, or on sight, the blokes he will be overseeing will often be 23 years old tradesman. They will have been payed to go to tech, a couple of days a week, to get their trade. If the work is in any way high quality, they may have a couple of qualifications, with all training payed for by the employer.

These highly competent blokes won't get out of bed for less than $80,000, & if you want the good ones, think over $100,000. Now, when it's done, if the thing doesn't work, or brakes, it's the engineers fault. Why the bl@@dy hell would any one be an engineer.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 6 August 2009 11:05:24 PM
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The author says:"Even better, make it “Emily the Engineer” to encourage young women into the field."

Why is that "better"? I worked in Engineering (Geotechnical) for over 20 years. In that time I watched "affirmative action" programs run by a couple of different firms, culminating in one firm (heavily involved in Govt consultancy) offering female graduates 10% more tham male graduates one year to try to increase its female numbers. Without exception those female graduates have left the profession, while there are no doubt senior male negineers working for the firm today who were passed over as graduates because they were the "wrong" gender.

In my experience, most women are not well-suited to the field and it is stupidly ideological to try to induce them to be part of it. Far better to encourage the young men who will go on to become senior members of the profession than young women who will do it for a few years until they meet Mr Right.

The author says:"At universities, the demand for engineering courses is in decline and many first-year engineering places remain unfilled"

And at Uni, Australian women outnumber Australian men by 3 to 2. It's not hard to see the correlation.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 7 August 2009 7:32:41 AM
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“ Emily the engineer” may actually result in a further decrease in the number of engineers in the country. It has been found in a number of countries (most noticeably in the UK) that a shortage of doctors in actual practice did not equate to the number of doctors that had been trained. Many of the doctors trained were female doctors who left the profession and did not return, and so a shortage of doctors has resulted that has to be made up by immigration.

The policy of many feminist schools to push boys into a trade course so that more girls can go to university has now resulted in a decline in the number of male engineers, who tend to stay in that profession.

The education system itself is almost 100% at fault for the shortage of engineers and science graduates. Very little fault can be attributed to the public.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 7 August 2009 9:42:10 AM
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A practical way to have engineering as our future is to have a strong industry-univeristy linkage or bondage. WE need to learn from the example of singapore where the curriculum for engineering students is designed in such a way that they spend full last year of their engineering education in relavant industry. This means we need to strongly realise that both industry and university have equal stake in promotion of engineering education and they should consider themselves as equal partners for promotions of technical skills and engineering education.
Posted by zahir, Friday, 7 August 2009 1:25:06 PM
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Engineers in industry generally do very well. I don't know of any with more than 10yrs experience earning less than 100k and several earning > 300k.

Many engineers simply apply the rule books, and produce standard designs, those that look further and innovate go much further and are greatly in demand, as they generally save huge amounts of money for their employers.

The problem with many of these brighter engineers is that with their strong maths training and problem solving techniques they often move into more lucrative careers. For example, several of my collegues are stock and derivative traders.

Also within companies, the path to promotion is within management and while they make good managers, they leave a gap.

The solution to retaining good engineers in the profession is to ensure that technical prowess is end and not a stepping stone.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 August 2009 7:19:47 AM
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I have a love-hate relationship with engineering, its been my bread and butter for the last 20 years. I never set out to be an engineer, in fact, maths was my worst subject at school! Yet, I went on to gain 1st class honours, a Masters, a PhD and two scholarships in Engineering. How was this possible? One day I finally saw the connection between the theory I hated so much at school and the practical, real life events occuring around me. Suddenly, it became real. As an engineer, I am in the fortunate position of being able to help, advise, suggest things that others are not able to see. If, as a country, we want people to be engineers then we need to let people know from an early age that engineers make it happen. Without us the world stops - we know that. It is not ALL about maths and physics but thats a start.
Posted by Bikesusenofuel, Tuesday, 25 August 2009 2:35:20 PM
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