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The Forum > Article Comments > Palestine - negate the debate on the Jewish State > Comments

Palestine - negate the debate on the Jewish State : Comments

By David Singer, published 24/7/2009

Perhaps it's time for Israel to formally adopt Ben Gurion’s definition, to officially designate itself 'The Jewish State of Israel'.

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Singer chooses a definition of a "Jewish state" as a state where Jews are in the majority. Is that what Netanyahu means by it? Unlikely, since it wouldn't make sense to "recognise" such a state; rather, according to such a definition, any state may change at a particular time from being a Jewish state to a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, state, or whatever. And officially designating such a state as Jewish, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc would have no effect - it wouldn't change anything - it would be a correct designation or not, to be ascertained by counting the groups in the population. So it seems inconceivable that this is what Netanyahu means.

Unless he means it to justify the expulsion and exclusion of the Palestinian refugees from Israel and the territory claimed by it.
Posted by jeremy, Friday, 24 July 2009 9:35:07 AM
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Why should the wider world care if a patch of Middle Eastern dirt belongs to one group of bloodthirsty intolerants or another?

Arab, Jew, Persian...they'll keep killing until there's only one ethnic group left, then find reasons to keep killing each other. A pox upon them all.
Posted by Sancho, Friday, 24 July 2009 10:23:06 AM
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That commenter..on your blog..or talkback caller..may actually be working for the Israeli government

extract from extensive link
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=3247

Straight out of..Avigdor Lieberman’s..Foreign Ministry:..a new Internet Fighting Team!
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520

Israeli students and demobilized soldiers..get paid to pretend..they are just regular folks..and leave pro-Israel comments on Twitter,..Facebook,YouTube..and other sites.

The approach was test-marketed..during Israel’s assault on Gaza,..
..a controversial effort..to use instant-access technology to crowd-source Israel advocates..to fill in flash polls..or vote up key articles..on social networking sites.

Will the responders who are hired for this also present themselves as “ordinary net-surfers”?

“Of course,”..says Shturman...“Our people will not say:..‘Hello,..I am from the policy-explanation department of the Israeli Foreign Ministry and I want to tell you the following....lol..Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis....but by their works shall ye know them...lol

They will speak as net-surfers..and as citizens,..and will write responses..that will look personal..but will be based on a prepared list of messages/issues..adgendas..that the Foreign Ministry developed.”

The full article,..translated by Occupation Magazine into English here:
http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3319543,00.html

The Foreign Ministry presents:talkbackers in the service of the State
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520

While most of the net-surfers were recruited through websites like giyus.org,
http://giyus.org/
which was officially activated by a Jewish lobby..[and has basically the same goal and modus operandi],..in some cases is it was the Foreign Ministry that took the initiative to contact the surfers..and asked them to post talkbacks..sympathetic to the State and the government..[of Israel]..on the Internet and to help recruit volunteers...

That’s how Michal Carmi,..an active blogger and associate general manager at the high-tech placement company Tripletec,..was recruited to the online policy-explanation team.

“During Operation..Cast Lead..the Foreign Ministry wrote to me and other bloggers..and asked us to make our opinions known on the international stage as well,”..Carmi tells Calcalist...“They sent us pages with..‘taking points’..and a great many video clips.

I focussed my energies on Facebook,..and here and there I wrote responses on blogs where words like..‘Holocaust’and‘murder’..were used in connection with Israel’s Gaza action.

I had some very hard conversations there...Several times the Foreign Ministry also recommended that we access specific blogs and get involved in the discussions that were taking place there.”
Posted by one under god, Friday, 24 July 2009 10:25:45 AM
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This is racism and whatever the opposite of antisemitism is. Antigoyimism?
Why should the Jewish religion have any influence in any country anywhere? Why should any religion have any influence in any country in the world?

Keep you damn godbothering to yourself. All of you, whether your god is allah or jehovah or mary or some frog you found last week. Keep it to yourself and stop trying to force me bow down with you.

The history of you people involving yourself in governance is nothing but war, murder, torture, destruction and evil. There has never, I repeat NEVER, been a religiously affiliated government that has not treated its citizens and its neighbors with anything but evil and murderous intent.

The jews have no right to a "homeland" where they rule and neither do the catholics or the mormons or the moonies or any other of the insane superfriend worshipping cults that blight this world.

Do all historical groups of people get a homeland? Like the American Indians, Aborigines, Maoris? Whats the difference? Why do jews get this special homeland treatment?

Get your religions out of my life and out of all governments or there will only be more conflict, more innocent lives taken, more slaughter and more lies and maybe they will even manage to bring about their ultimate wish of armageddon and wipe us all out. Crazy F ing fools.
Posted by mikk, Friday, 24 July 2009 10:49:17 AM
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Dear one under god,

How did you become such a good speller and so articulate in contrast to your previous posts?
Posted by david f, Friday, 24 July 2009 11:04:21 AM
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being well aware..im using up my last post of the day to reply you...the stuff from my own mind is poorly spelled out...and the stuff i quote FROM OTHERS..[usually using an accredited link comes from the link]

i adopted the non use of capitals..partly from lazyness [but the other to show my sympathies to israel...[hebrew dont use caps]...for egsample..

of course as i matured and found the contradictions in the story of judeans...that somehow..became jews/after being bolchovics and a few other non semite tribes..following the star of david..[not the lampstand]...folowing the talmud and not the torah[comming together under the flag of israel..[not the rightfull tribe of the high priest class of levi]

well i simply stopped caring..one way or the other..[having had many posts deleted]...i realised that spelling things perfectly wasnt working and stopped trying...things are as they are...

god has grace and often uses the imperfect to confound the wise...thus johan became jonah became johannine..till i realised were all children of the one life giver..and johannine..became one under god...

all as imperfect as each other...but yet via poor spelling..allowing others to give some form of reply..to that i said..[even if only the poor way i spelled it out]...

i envey those wise and educated such as yourself...but more i appriciate the things god reveales...in gods time..[live time all the time]..and by gods way..[even if im too ignorant to be able to name them..[or spell their namings correctly]...to know god is one..that god is living loving grace..nothing else comes close

what use being able to spell all..of a little,..when the all is beyond spelling..let alone naming..or the human will to spell or dis/spell..seems to hinge on spelling it out perfectly....im playing with it...cause i see the joke of it

anyhow
see you all in one day..lol...by gods will alone..[al-one]
Posted by one under god, Friday, 24 July 2009 11:37:37 AM
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Anglican Bishop Tom Frame wrote "Church and State." Australia is not a Christian nation" is the first sentence. Even though Australia has a Christian majority it is not a Christian nation. I am a Jew living in Australia, and that is great. That means that I am treated the same as any other person in Australia.

My ancestors came from czarist Russia where Russian Orthodoxy was the state religion. They were second-class citizens. Some of my family lived in Soviet Russia. They had to have Zhid meaning Jew marked on their passport. Those who didn't manage to get away from the Communists were murdered by the Nazis. Jews have lived in Christian and Muslim states. In both those kinds of states Jews were second class citizens.

In Israel a non-Jew is a second class citizen. Jews are favoured in the Law of Return. Orthodox Jews are favoured over other Jews. Orthodox Jews, non-Orthodox Jews and Muslms are go to separate schools. Nobody in the government of Australia either cares whether I am a Jew or what kind of Jew I am.

Both Arab nationalists and Jewish nationalists cannot accept a democratic state. States representing only part of their population are not democratic.

There will be turmoil and conflict in setting up a democratic, secular state. However, the end result will be more likely to bring peace than the separation of Arabs and Jews.

The record of partitioning countries in India, Vietnam, Korea and Germany is one of conflict. Partitioning Palestine will likely be no different.

South Africa is forming a democratic state aided by the fact that the Zulus and the Afrikaners were not allowed to split off and form separate states. Denial of self-determination gives democracy a chance.

I would like to see a one state solution. I would like to see a state where there is separation of religion and state and also civil marriage. I would like to see a state where all people practice whatever religion they want, and whatever they want is absolutely no business of the government.

continued
Posted by david f, Friday, 24 July 2009 8:06:56 PM
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continued

I think it is impossible for a state to be both Jewish and Democratic. If Australia became a Christian state rather than a state where Christians are a majority I would become a second class citizen as I am a Jew. Since I would not accept a Christian state in Australia I cannot in good conscience accept a Jewish state in Israel.

Australia was not a democracy when the White Australia policy was on. It was not a democracy when it refused admittance to Jews fleeing the Nazi oppression apparently only because they were Jews. Under the Law of Return I who was not born in Israel and have no connection with it at this time can go to Israel and become a citizen while an Arab born in Haifa who fled Israel during the War of Independence cannot. The Knesset has conducted an inquiry into infrastructure and services such as garbage collection, roads and other services provided to communities and found that such services were not provided to Arab villages to an extent equal to that provided by Jewish villages.

Two Israelis who want to marry each other cannot marry in Israel unless clergy of the appropriate faiths approve. There is no civil marriage in Israel. Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted in 1948 by the United Nations states.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

Israel violates that democratic right.

The United States has a majority of white Protestants. However, last year they elected a black man as president and a Catholic as vice-president. Can you envision a non-Jew being president or prime minister of Israel? In discrimination against blacks and Catholics the United States was really not democratic. However, with that election they have gone further on the road to democracy.

Democratic union offers more hope than partition into Arab and Jewish states.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 25 July 2009 3:44:26 PM
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i too see only a one state solution...as we have proofs the two state thing isnt working...two states will allways make a first class[2 de class]...with the results we are seeing with the settlers gradually settling anywhere

sadly unmentioned is most of these settlements are sparsly populated[most of the buildings are infact empty...and this is all the worse in that while one disposessed section..of gods people are homeless[and who lives but by gods will]...

while the other are multinational...[by and large..duel; passport holders with duplicated homes on two continents],..regardless there needs to be a single state..[even if it has two names]but with a govt that unifies and fairly sorts out this mess..[without the hoped for armogeddon]

it seems the soloman solution[of cutting the baby in half has failed]...the only solution as i see it is to disarm all those who would claim the right to live in the HOLY LANDS

just as it is blasphomy to bring a gun into church..[how much worse to do murder in the holy lands]...i would decree that the best defense is for the winner to disarm...

to have a robotic censor that kills anyone wearing an instrument of murder...ok a bit unrealistic...but such is the sanity of the insanity we are forced to endure...

here we have true anti-semitism..thus all..not semites get out now...if your not brown eyed black skin go home...there is no service giving the god of life...any more murder...its time both parties matured in their faith..[and gave back to god..that which was allways gods alone to keep]

the world awaites an awakening from this insanity..[have you seen what we collectivly..have allowed to be done to gods holy lands?]
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 25 July 2009 4:14:06 PM
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Davidf,

1) “Australia was not a democracy when the White Australia policy was on. It was not a democracy when it refused admittance to Jews”

How so David?
Quite apart from any argument/issue about the morality of it ---and, that’s a whole new debate. I cannot see how refusing entry to Jews or non-whites, in itself, negates democracy.
Surely your comment was rhetorical!

2)“Democratic union offers more hope than partition into Arab and Jewish states.”

Yeh , right, perhaps in the same way that Robert Mugabe’s new model Zimbabwe offers hope for non-Shona Africans’!
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 26 July 2009 8:45:05 AM
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THe UN never mandated a Jewish state. Egypt and Jordan didn't sign peace treaties with a Jewish state.

Singer is just spouting a Jewish Israeli fruitloop idea.

Why do these people think the rest of the world will always go along with their persistantly moving the goal posts in an endeavour to continue the Mid East tension.

The world has woken up to the nutcases in Tel Aviv. Just wait till they see the world's reaction to their, soon to be raid, on Iran and Irans retaliation oif attacking Israels nuclear industry. Nuclear fallout from destroyed reactors ...recall Chenobyl. Nuclear bombs would have to be used by Tehran to create a nuclear wasted Israel, only conventional armed rockets and they have plenty those.

They are going to be so stunned! They are blind to the anomisity they are stiring up with their now universally condemned blatant landstealling and so obvious prolonging of the Palestinians misery.

Condi Rice was right after the Israelis Lebanon defeat by hezbollah and the forced withdrawal when she said

'Now we will see who wants peace in the Middle East'.

Well we are seeing now!

The nutcases in Israel are so stupid they just will not believe the world will support Iran after they launch their war machine against the non-threatening Iranian people.

They can't see themselves for what they are: the nutcase fanatical religious warmongers of the Middle East.

David Singer is aligned with them.
Are you nuts too David? And don't come to us grizzling about the destruction of Israel when it occurs, for that's surely what the nutcases in Tel Aviv are bringing upon themselves.
Posted by keith, Sunday, 26 July 2009 12:22:32 PM
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At present,the following are State religions(the one officially endorsed by the State) -Roman Catholic-Eastern Catholic-Lutheran-Anglican-Reformed-Old Catholic-Sunni Islam-Shi'a Islam and possibly Buddhism should also be included.A grand total of about 45 countries have a State religion.
So what is the problem about Israel having a State religion,apart from politics and prejudice?

The fanatic logic behind the Arab rejection of Israel's determination to make Judaism the State religion makes perverse sense,but the lack of logic behind some of the present posts defies commonsense.
There are about 26 countries where Islam is the State religion and mostly, if you are on the outer-beware!Next to no rights-get out!Can you imagine a Jew trying to live in Saudi Arabia,for example.They cant even go there as tourists.
By and large,Arab Moslem Israelis have the same rights and privileges as do the Jews and there are of course Arab members of the Knesset parliament.
As regards having Judaism made the State religion,nothing would change except the Arabs would have to recognize the rights of existence of the Jews in Israel.
Great article David Singer!
Posted by mik, Monday, 27 July 2009 11:40:30 AM
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mik, they've sucked you in.

Or are you another of those members of the Jewish Israeli Gobells machine?

It's not about Israel having a state religion it's about making Israel a religious state. A Jewish state to the exclusion of other religions ... and making the World accept the racial discrimination that will necessarily involve. As it is Israel is recognised as a homeland for Jewish people and everbody including the Arab League recognises that as a fact. We also are witness to the discriminating nature of the Jewish majority.
So why do the nutcases in Israel need anything other than that. And especially why do they have the need to become an official aparthied state with the worlds sanction?
Posted by keith, Monday, 27 July 2009 4:02:32 PM
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Pure unadulterated propaganda rubbbish,which really doesnt deserve a reply,as he is obviously trolling and trolls should just be ignored, not fed.
This nutter seems seriously in love with that wonderful peaceful country Iran but all the garbage he is falsely accusing Israel of, is in fact practiced by his perfect state,The Islamic Republic of Iran,the terror centre of the world.
He sounds like a fundamental Islamist in disguise, who has been brainwashed at some madrassa.
Posted by mik, Monday, 27 July 2009 6:32:54 PM
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mik...clearly loves the thought of israel...but being in total denial posts his delusions as fact...quote...<<By and large,Arab Moslem Israelis have the same rights and privileges as do the Jews>>

as mostly...israelie arabs cant serve in the army..they dont qualify for the generous aid available to the rest of israelie citisenry...

thus they earn the pennies and mainly work in industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs....there are a few exceptions..<<...Arabs,..apart from the Druze and some Bedouin,..are exempt from mil service..along with ultra-orthodox Jews

<<and there are of course Arab members of the Knesset parliament.>>
Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset....Israel’s more than one million Arab citizens make up 18 percent of the population.

While 90 percent of the Arab community lives in the entirely Arab towns and villages of Galilee, Triangle and Negev,..some 10 percent live in mixed Arab-Jewish cities like Tel Aviv, Jaffa, and Acre.

Despite having a distinct national, ethnic, religious, cultural and linguistic character, Arab Israelis are treated as second-class citizens.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/22/64765.html

<<As regards having Judaism made the State religion,nothing would change except the Arabs would have to recognize the rights of existence of the Jews in Israel.>>..The report further said that there is a systematic state discrimination against Israeli Arabs,
http://muslimvillage.com/story.php?id=2635

The party’s stance is that every Israeli should swear an oath of allegiance to the flag (which includes the Shield of David, the symbol of Judaism),sing the national anthem (which evokes the “Jewish soul”)

Jabareen finds himself alongside Lieberman...In January 2008, when Lieberman stepped down from the previous government where his role was minister of strategic affairs,

he spoke openly:“Our problem is not Judea and Samaria but the extreme fundamentalist leadership that is in the Knesset…

Our problem is..[the Arab-Israeli parliamentarians]...lol...all 8 of em...lol
http://mondediplo.com/2009/05/04israel
Posted by one under god, Monday, 27 July 2009 7:29:25 PM
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Keith
You’re the one who has been sucked in. You’ve been sucked in so far all I can see is your rear end sticking out– and it’s not a pretty sight, I have to tell you!

Keith, if your concerns about minorities being treated as second class citizens in Israel -is principled based- you must really have some heavy duty belly aches about much of the Arab world which as a matter of course has – where they allow them to survive,at all – treated their minorities as third or fourth class citizens--- funny though, I haven’t seen you raise a complaint about that!

PS: You don’t have a drinking mate by the name of One Under God do you?
He has similar sorts of… um…shall we say – insights —as you .
He thinks the Mossad wrote Rushdie’s Satanic Verses ---ROFLMAO, ROFLMAO, ROFLMAO
Posted by Horus, Monday, 27 July 2009 11:05:55 PM
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One Under God( I wonder the name of his God)is wrong or deliberately misinterprets the facts.
For example,amongst other mistakes, Muslim Arabs can volunteer for the IDF,which includes Arabs in high ranks,but are exempt from compulsory service. There are 13 Arab members in the Knesset.
His references are(ROFL) mainly Muslim ones which arent renowned for their reliability or impartiality,so are next to worthless.He is very selective in choosing references,a favored tactic.
He apparently believes that the Mossad wrote Rushdie’s Satanic Verses- but what about believing, as do a lot of his kind,that Israel(and the US) were responsible for 9/11 and also for the recent lethal Iranian unrest regarding the rigged return of their President, the one who has vowed to wipe Israel of the face of the earth.And how about believing as does Hamas,that Israel is surreptitiously distributing aphrodisiac gum into Gaza in order to corrupt the young.The list is infinite.
All this just highlights the absurd thought processes of these brainwashed ones and that they cant be taken seriously,so it's really a complete waste of time and effort even talking to them!

As Horus pointed out, its a pity those who are so concerned with the treatment of minorities,dont examine and criticize how minorities are treated in their favorite Arab countries.One thing is for certain,the Israeli Arabs are living in a Paradise compared to the conditions under which Jews(and Christians) are living in most Muslim countries.
O.K.,can we stay on topic.
As I said before, there are about 45 countries who have a State religion.
To name only one,the Islamic Republic of Iran,which seems a great favorite with some posters.
No objections from the deluded about this one,but as soon as Israel talks about it,the stupid propaganda starts.
Posted by mik, Tuesday, 28 July 2009 2:16:50 PM
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In response to Mik, you supporters of Israel are forever justifying the crimes of the state by raising examples of other even worse states such as Saudi Arabia.
The difference is that we don't honor the state of Saudi Arabia in our parliament like our government has seen fit to do with Israel. When your government closely associates itself with another regime you have an obligation to be critical of it when it behaves badly.
The only reason the Israeli's are demanding the Palestinians recognise the Jewish nature of the state is because they know that no Palestinian leader can possibly do this, therefore they have yet another excuse not to make peace, but rather to continue moving their population to the West Bank, stealing the land and dividing it up and stealing the natural resouces.
Asking the Palestinians to recognbise Israel as a Jewish state is very similar to asking the aboriginals to recognise Australia as an English state , or a "State for the English". First you steal the land, and then not satisfied, you demand that the people you drove from that land recognise you as the legitimate owners, before you will even negotiate peace with them.
Posted by Rhys Jones, Tuesday, 28 July 2009 10:26:56 PM
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