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The Forum > Article Comments > Education must be about freedom of choice > Comments

Education must be about freedom of choice : Comments

By Scott Prasser, published 29/1/2009

The 'egalitarian' notion of a government-run, one-size-fits-all school system is well out of date.

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I am the product of a small [only 15 kids in 5Th year] NSW country high school. Our science master ran physics, & maths honors classes, three afternoons a week, after school, so we could compete with the big city students, on reasonable terms. Those were the days when external exams gave a true measure of your results.

Five of us were in the top 60 LC results that year, which says a lot about quality teaching. Four of the kids from the local catholic school were there with us. 9 top passes, from a town of 7000 was something to be proud of.

My daughter is the product of a large, [1750 kids] near city Queensland state high school. She, & 3 other grade 12 students, spent every saturday at QUT, being privately coached in math C, & physics. You see, only one teacher in the school could even do these subjects, let alone teach them, & there were 56 kids wanting the courses.

One very genuine senior biology, & junior maths teacher quit, when told he was to take these classes. He said, "I can't even do the stuff", but he should have stayed. The Asian lady, with a bit of paper, knew much less than he did, & was happy to take the job. The kids who's parents did not know enough to see all this, had no chance. That womam is still there.

It's not too hard to see why people want to send their kids to a better system, & god knows it would be hard to find worse, for real subjects. I can see no reason why these kids should recieve less tax payer contribution to their education, than mine. That contribution would be better spent in any other system, private, or public.

There are many good teachers, who have not yet given up, in our high schools, but the Qld Education dept, is about as good as Qld Health
Dept, & with that management, those teachers have about as much chance as those Maths C kids had.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 30 January 2009 12:38:49 AM
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What is often forgotten in this forum is that most independent schools are not those charging $20 000 fees, but generally only a fraction of that.

As the funding per child by the state for public schools is about $12 000 and the subsidy to private schools would be between $6000-$9000 p.a. This means that an independent school charging $3-6k p.a. would have similar funding as a public school which is free.

If independent schools were taken over and run by the state, the increase in running costs (not including property costs) would be in the order of $6b per year or $800 per tax payer per year. Which is why even the labor party is not stupid enough to kill the golden goose.

Removing state funding would end up closing the majority of independent schools and land the state with massive expenses.

The major difference is that the independent schools are not restricted by the teacher's union into promoting based on seniority, and taking whoever the state board deems fit, and the students know that they do not have carte blanche for poor behaviour and that their places at the school are not guaranteed. Which means that the money is better spent and there is no ethos of entitlement.

A socialist paradise would take more money out of the pockets of the man on the street and ensure that only the richest benefit from private education.

http://www.isca.edu.au/html/school_faqs.htm#_Toc524245108
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 30 January 2009 7:13:58 AM
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What a crock!

In terms of results, public beats private every time. Experiences in Europe and US have proved this time and time again. Real stats show that private education is not as effective.

Advocates of private education complain about the "socialism" and "government control", yet what they are asking for is more handouts!
What is it about "private" you don't get? You have all the choice in the world...just don't ask the community to pay for your "special" needs.

The rest of us want the "freedom of choice" not to prop up schools that peddle religious garbage and make profits by doing so. We don't want an "us and them" society like the US.
Fact is we cannot afford to fund dodgy "alternative education" when the basics are failing due to under-funding. I have no objection to alternate education so long as it passes certain standards, but why must I pay for it?

Lets stop talking garbage and look at results: US system has resulted in student results going backwards and social divisions increasing. Countries with public education have the opposite result. It is time for the advocates of private education to justify their grand claims with evidence, and account for the known deficiencies.

Most uni tutors would agree that private school kids are *not* better educated, they are better *differentiated*. ie. they know who "us" and "them" are. This pompous "better people" attitude is *not* good for society.
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 30 January 2009 10:09:25 AM
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Correction: Education must be all about teaching kids.

This "pro choice" nonsense applies to a tiny minority of rich, mobile, city dwelling parents. They want the entire country to suffer funding shortages so that they can get government funds. Our public education used to be top class until Howard choked it of funds and status.

Putting a philosophical spin on personal greed and elitism is pretty low. The fact that Labour has continued this policy is lamentable.

BTW. Teaching "intelligent design" instead of science is child abuse. Science is what dragged us out of the stone age. Teaching your kids to mistrust evidence based knowledge is dangerous, stupid and irresponsible. We need logical thinkers, not fearful, faithful automatons.
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 30 January 2009 10:26:19 AM
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Try calling the parents who send their kids to Saint Theresa's College in Abergowrie ('where?', you ask) rich, mobile city-dwelling parents. Or the pastoralists who send their kids to boarding schools in Charters Towers, Toowoomba, Warwick or any of the other 'education hubs' for rural parents. Sure, their kids could be home schooled or educated over the airwaves, but they have little other opportunity to give their kids educational opportunities.

As for using the USA as evidence that the private school system is a failure, that is absurd. There is very little comparable about the American system and those adopted by Australian states. Certainly if tertiary entry scores are anything to go by, private schools hold their own. And I managed to get through uni, so they can't have done too bad a job.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 30 January 2009 12:39:52 PM
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OZandy,

As per your previous posts, your comments are grandiose, provocative, and generally factually incorrect. (I notice you offer no links)

The comparisons in the US, Europe, and overwhelmingly in Aus show that kids from independent schools get better scores. (see the link from the US) In NSW the top HSC results are overwhelmingly either selective or independent schools. The non selective public schools barely feature.

“Most uni tutors would agree that private school kids are *not* better educated” What absolute drivel. Where did you suck this one from? Don’t attribute your personal opinion to a group of people without some decent research.

The reason that labor continues the policy is that it cannot afford to saddle the state with the expense of the alternative. A point that the proponents of public only education don’t appear to have the maths wherewithal to comprehend. As far as the state is concerned it is spending less on independent pupils than public pupils and getting good education results.

The politics of envy can only make things worse for everyone.

“This "pro choice" nonsense applies to a tiny minority of rich, mobile, city dwelling parents” Rubbish 33% of children are independently schooled.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006461.asp
http://www.cis.org.au/issue_analysis/ia13/ia13.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/08/2134118.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/national/parents-abandoning-public-schools-20090129-7t2z.html
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 30 January 2009 12:52:27 PM
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