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The Forum > Article Comments > Pope speaks out on homosexuality > Comments

Pope speaks out on homosexuality : Comments

By Michael Cook, published 9/1/2009

The inescapable fact of human existence is that we are both rational and animal and we cannot defy the laws of nature.

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I’m very sorry that the Pope “…did not intend to insult gays”.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:04:12 AM
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Is he in denial about the considerable number of homosexuals within the priesthood? Maybe he should ask them for more information.
Posted by Wayland, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:28:31 AM
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Science as we understand it today is not about "triumphing over nature". Rather, we seek to see nature objectively as it is, not as we would like it to be. Homosexuals exist. That is a fact. Their existence is not in contradition to some natural law. As scientists, we seek to understand why homosexuality exists rather than to impose our beliefs upon it. Nothing that exists in this universe violates natural law.

If the pope and the Catholic church were truly concerned about our existence in this planet's ecology then they would act to stop the most fundamental and important driver of climate change, resource depletion and habitat loss which is POPULATION GROWTH of the human species.

The study of ecology is all about populations of species, their interactions and the ability of the enviroment to support them. Thinking ecology while ignoring population size is like trying to speak English without using words!
Posted by michael_in_adelaide, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:29:04 AM
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Of course, the Pope's understanding of ecology is attenuated by his intellectual confinement within the straitjacket of theist belief:

<< Human bodies, having been created by God, are evidence for an authentic sexual morality >>

Which is an utterly meaningless statement if one doesn't believe in God or creationism.

However, even if one is credulous enough to believe in that nonsense, the Pope's argument is internally contradictory. "Homosexuality" is evident throughout the animal kingdom - if one accepts that God "created" animals, why then did he create homosexuality? Even the ecological aspect is rubbish - the greatest danger facing humanity in ecological terms is the exponential increase of the planet's human population. Surely sexual activities and orientations that don't involve reproduction are to be welcomed from an ecological perspective?

Exactly how does the Catholic church's stance on contraception and homosexuality encourage humans to limit the inevitable negative consequences to the environment of an exponentially increasing world population?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:44:38 AM
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I wonder how the Pope, who appears to be saying that homosexuality is against nature, rationalises the fact that there are many species of animal that have members who are attracted to the same sex. Seems nature might be proving him wring!
Posted by Phil Matimein, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:50:27 AM
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I wonder how the Pope, who appears to be saying that homosexuality is against nature, rationalises the fact that there are many species of animal that have members who are attracted to the same sex. Seems nature might be proving him wrong!
Posted by Phil Matimein, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:50:41 AM
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"Human bodies, having been created by God, are evidence for an authentic sexual morality: “The fact that the earth, the cosmos, mirror the Creator Spirit, clearly means that their rational structures which, transcending the mathematical order, become almost palpable in our experience, bear within themselves an ethical orientation.” If the biology of male and female sexuality is complementary, there must be an ultimate reason for it. A rational person searches for that reason and draws ethical conclusions."

At first reading this might seem to be true, but like all other things a rational person will not only seek, but also test Benedict's rationale. The facts are that there are good, clean living, upstanding, decent people we would be glad to have as our neighbours, who are also happen to be gay and lesbian. Some of them are deep, wise, moral and ethical christians, even catholics. and even clergy. Often these are well repected within their church. They do not experience God's condemnation. What they experience, and demonstrate for us, is that Benedict's reasoning is faulty.

Andrew Prior - http://churchrewired.or
Posted by Andrew Prior, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:58:49 AM
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God does not creat homosexuality, it is the choice of human to become homosexuals.

I prefer the evolution theory better, if we allow homosexuality, the gay gene will eventually be eliminated, so these people would be able to have kids. and the gay gene will die out.

As CJ Morgan says, it would also be good for the environment, as less people make the world more sustainable. Maybe it is the "God" way of looking after his flock and reducing his flock
Posted by dovif2, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:16:41 AM
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Natural law is simply the laws or the processes of nature, the object of scientific research. It may be a mistake to call it law except when one can describe a particular phenomenon such as the laws of motion by a mathematical equation. Biologists have more difficulty describing anything that could be called a law because they deal with very complex phenomena that are not reducable to mathematics, by and large.

Sexual orientation is one such complex phenomenon but we believe that it has its origins in interactions at the chemical, cellular or somatic level and thus it can be called "natural" because the process obeys all of the laws that govern the chemical, cellular and somatic processes.

Granted that the outcome may be called unnatural in that it subverts the most natural process of all, procreation. But it is itself the product of nature. This assumes that homosexual orientation is not chosen against heterosexual orientation, a most unlikely scenario.

My problem with the idea that the act of creation imprinted the will of the creator on the processes of the world is that it is an imposition of a causal cosmology onto a biblical narrative that is not about causality at all but is about the spiritual existence of mankind. By "spiritual" I do not mean the ghostly and the ghastly but such things as hope, love and faith.

Involving God in a casual nexus with cosmology makes him responsible for natural disaster, a prime cause of atheism and masks the real object of faith. The use of this "natural theology" also masks God as being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, i.e. as the God who is revealed in the history of the nation Israel and in the life and death of Jesus. It also masks God as the Triune.

Peter Sellick
Posted by Sells, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:17:57 AM
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"If the biology of male and female sexuality is complementary, there must be an ultimate reason for it. A rational person searches for that reason and draws ethical conclusions."

Ponder the fact that the man saying this is the leader of a very large church which demands celebacy of many of it's staff. A man who is himself committed to putting aside that complementary sexuality in his own life. A rational person who draws ethical conclusions about the complimentary nature of male and female sexuality might find some absurdity in the idea that homosexuality is destructive while celebacy mandated by man is not.

As for the argument of equating caring for the earth and caring for the body. Show me the evidence that homosexual lives are necessarily shorter and less fullfilling than hetrosexual lives (without the oppression of homophobes and their ilk). I can see the harm in wrecking our environment, the ability of the earth to sustain life is reduced. I can't see how a celebate man can determine that expressing your biological sexual orientation with another consenting adult is somehow more destructive than living a lie. Somehow more destructive than trying to live what you are not and possibly involving others in that (spouses, children etc).

I can see the harm in adults who are allowed no legitimate access to the fulfillment of sexual needs seeking to fulfill those needs however they can.

The pope leadsa a system of sexual frustration and pain which has been proven to cause enormous harm to many of those involved and innocents in their care, he has no moral high ground to stand on to condemn homosexuals expressing their love with other consenting adults.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:28:28 AM
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I admired the Pope.
Im not Roman Catholic (too little Holy Spirit and too much paganism) but I thought his speech was spot on.

Its the gays who are spreading the diseases and some of each new generation of young boys will become infecting with those diseases.

Society has gotten too complacent since the days of the Grim Reaper. We have a responsibility to protect the children from the gay men.

The Divine Penalty for homosexual practice is total exclusion from Heaven.

There isnt a gay anywhere who cant get set free if he goes to Jesus Christ in committed prayer with the problem.
Not one.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:37:22 AM
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Stopped reading the article at this point - "It could, in fact, lead to a better understanding of why homosexuality is wrong and a violation of human dignity".

Yeesh! Someone had better tell the penguins in the Melbourne aquarium that they had better stop it, or they will go blind.

Can't see that homosexuality is any more less dignified or wrong than heterosexuality myself. Just part of humans being humans and following where their sexual attraction takes them. If it's occuring between consenting adults it's nobody's business except their own - and especially not the Popes.

At a friend's child's school, a little bully aged all of about 8 tried to make another child upset by screaming at them that their mother was a homosexual. Fortunately the would be victim said quite calmly, 'so what - your mothers a heterosexual'. The bully promptly burst into tears and raced off to complain to the very amused teacher that the other child had called his mother a heterosexual, clearly having no idea of what it was all about, he was just repeating his parents bigotry. Hopefully for the world's sake he has rejected his parents views as he grew up. Similarly the Catholic churches view that homosexuality is immoral or un-natural will also get tossed out for good.
Posted by JL Deland, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:46:59 AM
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The writer doesn't show his hand, he's a dead ringer for the holy rollers, all his posts and mercatornet are running parallel with the opinion of supernatural believers on modern issues, well if they didn't whine about our society's enlightenment, their pet "issues" wouldn't actually be issues at all.

When he says humans are rational and speaks of himself and his fellow travellers, thats a paradox to be reckoned with. Supernatural believers or worshippers are inherently irrational.
Posted by Inner-Sydney based transsexual, indigent outcast progeny of merchant family, Friday, 9 January 2009 11:10:55 AM
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Inner-Sydney based transsexual, indigent outcast progeny of merchant family:

"When he says humans are rational and speaks of himself and his fellow travellers, thats a paradox to be reckoned with. Supernatural believers or worshippers are inherently irrational."

Feel free to make an attempt at rationally showing this. I'm all ears.
Posted by Trav, Friday, 9 January 2009 11:42:57 AM
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The blind ignorance is shown once again by religous fundamentalists, in equating homosexuality with paedophillia.
Gibo one can only hope that there is some salvation for you, and your god will redeem you for denigrating innocent fellow human beings.
Posted by Kipp, Friday, 9 January 2009 11:58:51 AM
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I read the english translation which unfortunately wasn't put out by the Vatican but by a British Catholic Diocese. The Pope defends marriage and somehow we've got him attacking gays. Our local newspaper had the quote allegedly from the Pope which said "homosexuality is as great a threat as rainforest destruction." Try and find that one in the Papal text along with the word homosexual or gay.
Basically the media stories were crap - designed to attack the Church around the holiest of days.
I'm not Catholic and my personal views are often contrary to their beliefs but this is one area where the media were deliberately wrong.
Posted by Tommy Boy, Friday, 9 January 2009 12:21:26 PM
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Clearly there's something very faulty with Cook's sarcasm detector, because David Marr's article is dripping with it.

And when Cook attempts to put himself in the position of gays and lesbians, he gets that utterly wrong too: "Admittedly, this will not be easy for supporters of homosexuality to accept. What they feel is that biology is less important than the longings of the heart." The entire lived experience of most homosexuals is that attraction to members of the same sex *is* their biology. A tiny proportion of homosexuals claim that they have chosen their sexuality - the rest know with absolute certainty that it was never in their ability to choose.

And why would anyone choose it, when everywhere ignorant polemicists claim that homosexuality is unnatural, therefore bad?

It is the height of absurdity to claim that unnatural equals bad, as the pope is doing when he says:

"When the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman and asks that this order of creation be respected, it is not the result of an outdated metaphysic. It is a question here of faith in the Creator and of listening to the language of creation, the devaluation of which leads to the self-destruction of man and therefore to the destruction of the same work of God."

http://www.zenit.org/article-24682?l=english

Computers, rubella vaccinations and chocolate soufflés are 'unnatural,' outside "the nature of the human being." Are they disrespectful of the "order of creation?" Of course not. "We can no more defy the laws of nature than [beetles and sea-gulls] can," says Cook, but he does precisely that every time he opens the fridge or puts on his reading glasses.

Others here have pointed out the inconsistency in condemning human homosexuality as unnatural, when it occurs naturally in other species.

The pope's address was demeaning and mean-spirited, and Cook's defence of it is shallow, ignorant and self-serving. The only truthful sentence in Cook's article came from someone else: "As always, this sort of religious homophobia will be an alibi for all those who would do gay people harm."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1101052/Pope-accused-spreading-fear-homosexuals.html
Posted by jpw2040, Friday, 9 January 2009 12:43:48 PM
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Many of you obviously have not carefully read the speech by the Pope before going off half-cocked.

Having read Cook’s article and the full text of the Pope’s address through the link Cook provided, I’m inclined to agree with Tommy Boy. There is no reference to homosexuality, either explicitly or implicitly, in the Pope’s speech. The Pope makes some key theological statements that I consider to be basically flawed, but there is no reasonable way that we could take it as commenting on homosexuals or their sexuality. If that was Benedict’s intention, then his address was very poorly written.

Yes, homosexuality is an aspect of nature; it should not be condemned, and should even perhaps be celebrated as much as heterosexuality. But Cook, some other journalists and some contributors to this forum should be condemned for mis-representing Benedict’s speech in order to air their grievances against the Roman Catholic Church or Christianity in general.

And, by the way, like Tommy Boy I am not a Roman Catholic.
Posted by crabsy, Friday, 9 January 2009 1:12:16 PM
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I really can't comment if Cook got his wires crossed about what
the pope said, or if the translation was wrong or whatever.

Either the pope or Cook clearly need to swat up on their
neuroscience and our understanding of how the mind works.

Sexual attraction is perfectley natural, but it is instinctive,
not about free will.

Even the pope would have woken up to his share of erections,
not because his freewill chose to have them, but because
a large portion of the brain operates on a subconcious level
and males evolved to have them and to have urges to impregnate
females! That is the reality of it.

Further, if we look at nature, nothing is black and white, but
things evolve along the lines of a spectrum, it is just how
the genes land up in particular individuals.

We find very masculine females, very feminine males, very tall
females, very short males etc.

If the pope or Cook think that we should accept what is natural,
then they should accept those people as they are, instincts and
all, not try and enforce some religious agenda on them, as they
seem to be attempting to do.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 9 January 2009 2:17:58 PM
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Theres not all that much innocent about homosexuals Kipp.

They know what they are doing.
They know they are the corrupters of many young boys and the spreaders of disease to same.
God says all the way through the Holy Bible that homosexuals (sodomites) do not make Heaven.
The place for them is the Lake of Fire.
Telling gays who read this is my compassion.
Tap into Mary K Baxters-Divine revelation of hell.
http://spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm
Be strong, lad and start at Chapter 1 Into hell.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 9 January 2009 2:51:32 PM
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Oh Gibbo - Mate, in a world where the refugee camps are full and the most unbelievable human rights abuses are occuring, you are praying for a bunch of people whose only fault (in your eyes) is they dare, and in fact have been programmed to love by the Lord Almighty if there is one, is to love people of the same sex and who are probably mostly, same as any heterosexual, happy with how things have worked out.

I don't think they need your prayers, they are mostly just getting on with life, same as the rest of society, working, playing, being parents, and dealing with the day to day stuff of being an ordinary human being.

I think you have been left somewhere behind and if you are not writing in seclusion, the company you keep is somewhat limited.

I'm not a prayerful person, I tend to favour direct action, but I'm sure there are better more thoughtful, loving types out there, probably a good proportion of people who are even gay, who will spare some time to pray for you. May a happy place come your way with all their thoughts concentrated on you.
Posted by JL Deland, Friday, 9 January 2009 3:49:14 PM
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i agree with tommy and crabsy. on a quick read, i found the pope's speech mighty weird (as i would), but pretty inoffensive. very interesting to find, for once, that the beating up on the catholic church is largely a beat-up.

cook, on the other hand is a shocker. The sentence that deland noted is absolutely disgraceful.
Posted by bushbasher, Friday, 9 January 2009 3:51:26 PM
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JL Deland hit the nail on the head, why are some religious people hand up about homosexuals. All the death, pain in the world is were they should put there energies.....Oh that's right they are, perhaps they should stop.

Many religious people are so worried about going to their imaginary Hell, that they create a very real one here on earth.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 9 January 2009 4:04:53 PM
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"very interesting to find, for once, that the beating up on the catholic church is largely a beat-up."

For once? I'd say it's a regular occurence! Perhaps it's usually more subtle though, than this obvious example.

And Gibo, theologically and biblically why is homosexuality any worse than other other sin?
Posted by Trav, Friday, 9 January 2009 4:05:40 PM
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I'm one who had not gone back and read the original speach. I'd not considered the possibility that the article would significantly misrepresent the content of the speach.

After a read of the original I have to agree that there is nothing obvious in relation to homosexuals. If anything "That which is often expressed and understood by the term "gender," results finally in the self-emancipation of man from creation and from the Creator." had me wondering about a number of possibilities.

My original point that someone who heads up and endorses a forced celebacy has no moral high ground to use to proclaim the sacredness of male/female sexuality or for that matter the divine nature of marriage remains. "The great Scholastic theologians have characterised matrimony, the life-long bond between man and woman, as a sacrament of creation, instituted by the Creator himself and which Christ - without modifying the message of creation - has incorporated into the history of his covenant with mankind"

A strange irony that those who have rejected in their own lives what they consider god ordained can be so determined in their defense of that.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 9 January 2009 4:11:33 PM
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trav, the beating up of the catholic church is becoming (somewhat) a more regular occurrence. i just wouldn't agree that it's normally a beat-up.
Posted by bushbasher, Friday, 9 January 2009 4:44:02 PM
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Perhaps the Pope and his followers should give up wearing their gay drag attire, it always surprises me that they know there is a so called God, how do they know? there is no proof, he should look at all of his gay mates and associates in the Catholic church before he makes stupid statements.

I am also positive that if his beloved Jesus was here now, he wouldn't have his own jet at his disposal, live in luxury, how people can believe the rubbish that comes out of this man's mouth astounds me.
Look after the poor, the Pope wouldn't know where to start or what to do.
Posted by Ojnab, Friday, 9 January 2009 4:56:41 PM
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This very same issue was raised in the General section on 29-12-08 and debate died when the speech was linked.

An in house speech mainly about the World Youth Day and a bit taken out of context by a journo. An attempted beat up by the media.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 9 January 2009 9:16:34 PM
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Whether the Pope actually criticised homosexuality in this speech or not, his actions speak louder than words.

The Vatican actively resists the decriminalisation of homosexuality in countries where homosexuals are discriminated against, bashed, tortured, and even killed just because of their sexual orientation. This violates human rights.

I don’t understand why the Catholic Church, as a human rights violator with its anti-homosexuality stance, still has any right of speech in the UN General meetings.
Religion should have no place in politics.
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 9 January 2009 10:25:47 PM
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It seems that the Pope is as confused about homosexual behaviour as are those who practice such behaviour. Homosexual behaviour is not about sex and never has been. Rape is not about sex, nor is pedophilia, nor is prostitution, nor is sado-masochism or celibacy or many other sexual aberrations. Many people ‘act out’ their emotional needs by using sexual behaviour. Just because someone indulges in homosexual behaviour it does not automatically follow that it is natural and a perfectly rational reaction to an attraction to another human being. People do not always behave rationally. When they don’t they often become very good at rationalising their behaviour. The alcoholic who tells everyone he is just ‘socialising’, the compulsive gambler who thinks it is ok to steal from his boss are just not facing up to their underlying problem.

Rationalising can become very clever and can be very convincing. Groups of people with the same problem can get together and make a big loud noise almost enough to frighten and bully others into believing their rationalizations. They can even lobby and intimidate politicians into creating laws which claim that their rationalizations are really just a question of ‘equal rights’.

When we discuss homosexual behaviour as if it is an ‘orientation’ or that it is in accordance with human nature we have fallen for the trap and have become ‘co-dependent’. No one’s behaviour is above criticism and blindly accepting someone’s self explanation for their own behaviour is a foolish thing to do.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 9 January 2009 11:34:24 PM
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Phanto

You say:

<Many people ‘act out’ their emotional needs by using sexual behaviour. Just because someone indulges in homosexual behaviour it does not automatically follow that it is natural and a perfectly rational reaction to an attraction to another human being…When we discuss homosexual behaviour as if it is an ‘orientation’ or that it is in accordance with human nature we have fallen for the trap and have become ‘co-dependent’. >

If this is true, then shouldn’t it also apply equally to “heterosexual” behaviour? By your reasoning, just because someone indulges in sexual behaviour only with people of the “opposite” sex it does not automatically follow that it is perfectly natural and a rational reaction to an attraction to another human being.

So what is “natural” and “rational”?
Posted by crabsy, Saturday, 10 January 2009 8:54:52 AM
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Whatever the semantics of the translation of the Pope's speech, its clear meaning is to reinforce the Catholic church's anachronistic proscription of any form of sexuality that doesn't involve marriage between a man and a woman. Indeed, this is one of the issues that is causing Brisbane's most vibrant Catholic congregation to risk excommunication from the auspices of the Church:

<< MAVERICK priest Father Peter Kennedy says he will lead a breakaway congregation if Brisbane's catholic Archbishop forces him to leave St Mary's Church.

There are fears that exclusion from the historic South Brisbane property will be the final act in a long-running dispute that has reached the Vatican.

The dispute has attracted national and international attention because it represents the battle between conservative and less traditional forces within the Catholic Church.

There are more Roman Catholics in Australia than any other religious group. Each week, St Mary's attracts large congregations while many more orthodox Catholic parishes struggle to fill pews.

[...]

St Mary's is known for its unconventional Catholic practices - allowing women to preach, blessing homosexual couples and recognising with ritual the traditional sovereignty of the indigenous people of the area. >>

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24892611-952,00.html
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 10 January 2009 10:09:09 AM
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Crabsy

What you say is perfectly true and hetero-sexual behaviour can also be irrational and unnatural. It is almost impossible to understand exactly what motivation lies behind each sexual act because you cannot get inside someone else’s head. You cannot prove that the reasons they give for their sexual behaviour are rational. Some will say it is because they want to express love, some will say it is purely for pleasure; some may say it is for money. You cannot prove that it is logical and rational for them to have sex.

There is one situation, however, which is perfectly natural and reasonable that can be obvious to everyone. When a couple decide to create a child by natural means it is logical for them to have sex. There is no other way to do it. You can say with certainty that there is the right connection between what they do and what they hope to achieve. So the only sexual behaviour that you can say with certainty is logical and reasonable is that which pursues the goal of creating a child. Any other type of sexual behaviour can be used for ‘acting out’.

Although you cannot prove that certain other sexual behaviours are a case of ‘acting out’ you can definitely have your suspicions. A pedophile may well give what appears to him a credible argument for his behaviour. We cannot prove he is behaving illogically without cause and effect evidence but we can certainly be very suspicious of his behaviour because we know for a fact that people do not always tell the truth about why they do things and that their behaviour is often an attempt to meet some deep emotional need in an inappropriate way. Many people have such suspicions about homosexual behaviour.
Posted by phanto, Saturday, 10 January 2009 10:17:56 AM
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"Many people have suspicions about homosexual behavior", and what is this "behavior"? It is about two people loving each other and sharing their lives together, the sexual aspect is a minute part of that relationship.
Any relationship is private and personal to those two people only, and has no affect on anyone and accordingly should be respected. Rationality has nothing to do with it, except to those who want to impose their own personal beliefs on how society should be.
Posted by Kipp, Saturday, 10 January 2009 1:11:59 PM
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JL Deland.

The Pope, and any of the christians here, will tell you that we are just messengers of Gods Word.

We know Gods Word is the truth because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us.

Our mission is to tell about Jesus, the One Who Saves (from the Final Judgment) and about the consequences of sin.

There is not an addiction/sin anywhere, including homosexuality, that cant be turned from if we take it to God.

The AA's use a brilliant 12 Step programme.
That programme can be used for any addiction/sin whatsoever because it invites The Lord into the problem.

We are simply the messengers, of what God Has Commanded, in The Word, for the betterment of mankind.
Posted by Gibo, Saturday, 10 January 2009 1:34:46 PM
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Well said, Kipp, I can't agree more.
Homosexual relationships harm no one and every relationship should be private and of nobody's business.

Gibo, do you think that homosexuality is an addiction?
Rrrright.

And the twelve-step program seems to be a failure.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Do they have a 12 step program that would help addiction to religion, too?
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 10 January 2009 2:16:01 PM
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Good point Crabsy. There is nothing rational about statements like 'homosexuality is wrong and a violation of human dignity" or from Phanto's post that tied it in to people with a 'problem'.

Homosexuals do not have a problem. But people with an irrational adversion to homosexuality (homophobia) do.

I'm not a gay. But I had the unpleasant experience a few years ago of being the target of a hate campaign from a small number of people which might have given me some insight into what it is to be the victim of homophobia. I might as well turn the unfortunate affair to some use and use it to support my case here.

There was nothing rational about my victimization. Someone in a postition of trust allowed it to leak out that I was the close friend of someone who these people disaproved of. The ringleader may have also put out that I was some kind of spy - a piece of misinformation guarenteed to keep me isolated and under suspician.

For me, who was already very fragile,at the time, but keen to be involved, it was personally devestating to be targeted for something I hadn't done and something I didn't like either. I had to seek medical and pyschological assistance. It was tough on my family and made a stressful time much worse for.

These people weren't even young wild eyed ranters seeking revolution, (the revolutionaries I know have more sense) they were comfortable middle class people whose favourite Saturday morning occupation would be drinking lattes, and talking about free association and human rights but at the same time indulging in a little bit of stalking and harassment behaviour against me at public events that was quite at odds at what was coming out of their mouths and should have earned them a embarressing restraining order at the time and official complaints to their respective organisations, if I hadn't been so beaten down and defenceless, and definately will in future should they ever do a repeat of performance of their activities.

To be continued
Posted by JL Deland, Saturday, 10 January 2009 3:29:22 PM
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Following the Pope's logic all those born with Down's syndrome or other genetic defects are unnatural and should be shunned.

He is confusing "natural" with most common. In nature most things follow a single "path" but in all species there are behaviours that deviate from the norm. This does not make them bad, only different.

As head of the organisation with the greatest No of gays he should understand this.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 10 January 2009 4:14:10 PM
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Another article highlighting the media's distortion of the Pope's words:

"Critics of Benedict misheard the Pope" (from The Australian)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24850261-7583,00.html
Posted by AMCE, Saturday, 10 January 2009 4:21:51 PM
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Life history continued from previous post!

I don't imagine the people who think homosexuality is wrong who are posting here would of course behave in such a way as these people who discrimated against me, or be anything but polite to homosexual people. I'm referring to my experience of being discriminated against because for a while, I was the one feeling dirty and ashamed and at fault. These people made me think I was the one with a problem. Eventually some common sense and self esteem crept back into my life and I realised that the problem was not me. All I was doing was trying to sit in public events and indicate that I didn't like what the previous government was doing. The problem was with the people who thought it was okay to gatecrash my life to inflict hate politics on me without any right, or to attempt to talk to me to see if I deserved their hate.

Probably some gays when they experience homophobia have the same response of shame that I did to discrimination. It must be very hard to be young gay who has been involved in their church for years to suddenly be on the outside and to be made to feel there is something wrong with them. Hopefully like me, rationality will dawn, that the problem is not with them, but the people who are trying to say something is wrong with them. I can't imagine Justice Michael Kirby or Senator Penny Wong, have much time for feeling they are in some way unnatural.

I never got a apology from either the people who dropped me in it with the people who harrassed me, or from the harrassers, though by their own rules they were so far out line, they were out near Pluto, so waiting for the churches to change, may be wasted time.
Posted by JL Deland, Saturday, 10 January 2009 4:31:27 PM
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Phanto:

Your reply to my previous post fascinates me. Let’s pursue your reasoning a little further.

You say:

<So the only sexual behaviour that you can say with certainty is logical and reasonable is that which pursues the goal of creating a child. Any other type of sexual behaviour can be used for ‘acting out’. >

So why is it always logical and reasonable to create a child?

JL Deland:

Thanks for sharing your story: you obviously developed greater inner strength from that awful experience as well as gaining deep insight into the plight of the outcasts.

I'm much more optimistic than you about the possibility of change in the churches, because it is already happening. You probably don't hear so much about it from the outside, but as a practising member of a church I can tell you that many Christians now understand that homosexuality is not to be condemned any more than heterosexuality.
Posted by crabsy, Saturday, 10 January 2009 6:31:07 PM
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"Human bodies, having been created by God, are evidence for an authentic sexual morality."

Evidence, please, Your Holiness?
Posted by Jon J, Saturday, 10 January 2009 7:20:41 PM
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Celivia.
Sure homosexuality is an addiction.
What did you think it was?
The heart, in many people, loves it if they allow it.

It loves the sex, the porn, the drugs, the alcohol, the pride, the over-eating, the idolatry (how many want a Ferrari here or similar?)

The Bible tells us that the heart is wicked/deceitful above all.

The Word tells us frequently to guard our hearts.

All of the war at the present time... what is that?
Its the unguarded heart filled with anger and hate.

The 12 Steps were Given by God so we would know which Direction to look for, for the solving of the problem of addiction.
To encourage us look to God!
Thats why the 12 Steps work.
All we have to be is willing. Then it doesnt fail.
Posted by Gibo, Saturday, 10 January 2009 8:17:38 PM
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*Celivia.
Sure homosexuality is an addiction.*

Whew, thank Darwin we have some rational and informed posters like
Cevilia on OLO, or the nutters would seemingly take over...

Gibo, if sexual attraction is an addiction, then you must be a
sex addict :)

I put it to you that humans,like all other species, evolved to
instincevly enjoy sex, for if a species did not,they would soon
become extinct.

So in other words, sexual attraction is normal and natural.

* The Bible tells us that the heart is wicked/deceitful above all*

The bible is clearly confused in this case, for the heart is little
more then a pump.

Religious addication, now yup that seems to exist. Even Poly admitted
to me that he needs it to cope with life. You seem much the same.

Gibo, you are an addict!
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 10 January 2009 10:02:09 PM
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Hi Gibo,
You seem to reason that homosexuality is an addiction because “The heart, in many people, loves it if they allow it. It loves the sex, the porn, the drugs, the alcohol, the pride..,”
I’d agree that people CAN become addicted to any or all of these things, but many people do these things without ever becoming addicted to them.
Merely allowing yourself to do something ‘the heart’ loves doesn’t mean you’re addicted to it. (BTW it’s like Yabby says in the brain, not in the heart but I know what you mean).

We all aim to do what we love.
What else are people supposed to do all day- allow themselves only to do things we hate?

Dictionary.com defines addiction as:
“the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.”

Homosexuals are no more enslaved to having sex as heterosexuals are. Neither is homosexual sex more habit-forming than heterosexual sex.

And, the only trauma that homosexuals have to deal with is the trauma caused by homophobes and because of discrimination against homosexuals such as discussed by JL Deland. (BTW, thanks for that touching story, JL.)

And this is what the sexual recovery institute says about sexual addiction:
http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/homosexuality.php
“Sexual activities and relationships with members of ones own sex, whether casual or intimate, are not considered to be a sign or symptom of sexual addiction. Sexual addiction is not defined by type of sexual act, by choice of sexual partner, or the sex of that partner. Sexual addiction is defined by the escalating negative consequences of sexual behaviors that are acted out compulsively and impulsively, often without regard to personal or relational consequences.”

I hope that it is now clear to you that homosexual sex is not an addiction.

I’m serious when I say that religion can become an addiction.
Some of the fundies on this site certainly are enslaved to a practice that is habit-forming to the extend that its cessation would cause you severe trauma.
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 11 January 2009 1:19:19 PM
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Your heart, Yabby, is a bit more than a pump:)

It feels for you, it loves, can be angry, can hate and can get much trapped with re-occuring sexual lusts.

Anything in excess is addiction.
If youre in it, and cant get out of it, youre addicted.

It may not meet the specific description a dictionary may record as to the 'name title' but its still something that holds you trapped.

Sexual excesses are addiction, because youre now stuck with 'the thing', and have to repeat it over and over again to placate the hearts desire for it.

Homosexuality, in those who like it, begins through weakness in giving into it.

In finding pleasure in its acts, those acts get repeated like any drug cycle, and then the bondage to the act becomes complete.
It owns you. Thats addiction.

God says no to homosexuality because its His Law.
He Created life a certain way and it pleases Him that we follow that Law.
If not then a penalty comes into existance.

Only going back to God in confession of sin and for His help gets us set free.

I think Darwin died a christian amazed at how the wild thoughts of the young man he had been, had been grabbed by those who wanted to think apart from the Holy Bible.
Posted by Gibo, Sunday, 11 January 2009 5:45:21 PM
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*It feels for you, it loves, can be angry, can hate and can get much trapped with re-occuring sexual lusts.*

Sorry Gibo, but this is why you can't take the bible literally.

If you were correct, then what happens when we give people an
artificial heart? The heart is just a pump.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart

What you are talking about is the limbic system, which is kind
of the second section or emotional section of the brain.

Where this whole idea of the heart as you refer to it came from,
was because the Egyptians thought that what we now call the brain,
was where the heart is. They thought that what we have as a brain,
was a cooling system, IIRC.

Luckily for you, we have science available to correct some
of those bible mistakes :)
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 11 January 2009 6:38:52 PM
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Thankyou Crabsy. Glad your church is progressive, more power to it.

Gibo have you investigated the church of the Flying Spagetti Monster? If you ever look for a change It's easier going than your with only eight 'I'd rather you did not's'.

Plus pasta. I'ts worth a google. I love it myself.

I suspect though they have no interest at all in their member's sexual orientations.
Posted by JL Deland, Sunday, 11 January 2009 6:48:44 PM
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Ps this may help. They love hate mail too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
Posted by JL Deland, Sunday, 11 January 2009 7:10:58 PM
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LOL CJ MORGAN,

I never thought I'd write these words but here goes:

CJ MORGAN, I endorse your post of Friday, 9 January 2009 9:44:38 AM

You said it better than I could.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 11 January 2009 10:14:58 PM
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All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Since we're now sharing truths normally reserved for the initiated only, I recommend that all (when finished hailing) read about The Heterosexual Agenda:

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,015.htm

However, a word of warning: it's not for the faint-hearted. In fact, it'll scare the bejesus out of you.
Posted by jpw2040, Sunday, 11 January 2009 10:20:13 PM
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Thanks Steven. I know it's a bit of a worry, but this isn't the first time we've agreed on something :)

Blessings of His Noodly Appendages upon you.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 11 January 2009 11:25:53 PM
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jpw2040, thanks for that link. Some of the other material which links off it is very good. The 15 steps link (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,016.htm) is great and is relevant to the tactics used in a number of issues - the DV debate came to mind.

Likewise the piece on the claim that gays are a threat to children was very good. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

Plenty to think about in there.

To all I'm expect to be away untill late in the week so won't be able to follow up on comments.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 12 January 2009 8:22:29 AM
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I love this one...
The pope's comments were actually quite mild and misreported...but as usual, not particularly logical.
As several posters have pointed out: Gay animals are not just common, they are *very* common. I'm assuming the Pope wasn't told that?
What about trans-sexual individuals with both genitalia (Which are more common then most realise). I *really* want to know what God was planning for them!
(Another nail in Gods coffin. Why would a perfect being create so many shoddy designs that evolution explain perfectly? The trachea: that practically eliminates "design"!)
Recent studies have also hinted at evolutionary reasons for homosexuality. Good on ya Pope for wanting to learn from nature, but you have about 500 years of professional knowledge to catch up on! (Religious leaders are so cute sometimes!)
"Human bodies, having been created by God, are evidence for an authentic sexual morality."
So what was God's message when he created homosexuals and multisexual humans? Perhaps some tolerance for differences? Oh, the irony!
Leigh shows his Christian version of Love...ie. Hatred of Others as usual...Half your congregation are Gay Leigh, they just take it out on the kiddies.
Gibo also shows complete ignorance of Church-Paedophilia connections whilst inventing Gay-Paedophilia connections.
(What about the systematic, world-wide Catholic harboring of paedophile priests!)
I suspect Leigh and Gibo are borderline Gay.
Posted by Ozandy, Monday, 12 January 2009 11:22:05 AM
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Homosexuality exists throughout nature, not just among humans.

Yet another example of religious fear and loathing. With all the knowledge and scientific methods we have at hand we still prefer superstition and dogma.

There's a religious war happening in the M.E. as we speak. Millions are dying from preventable HIV infections becuase the church says condoms are sinful. Child abuse by religious institutions continues in all parts of the world.

And you're worried about what consenting adults do in their bedrooms?
Posted by bennie, Monday, 12 January 2009 11:48:52 AM
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Well spotted bennie:
Current Catholic policies are responsible for many, many children dying of Aids in African countries.
They are not secondary effects, they are primarily caused by the Catholic teachings and manipulation to prevent condom use.
The hypocrisy and sheer intellectual laziness of these types!
You have the gall to criticize an individual because they behave as their *God given* inner nature dictates, whilst ignoring murder, lies and sheer animal stupidity. You reckon your opinion is "God approved" yet someone's birth is not "God approved?". Where the hell do these people's ego's get off? Finally, what part of "turn the other cheek" do you not understand? Your *God* told you this in plain...er Hebrew!
Can a true believer please tell me how you can sleep at night without the "head in the sand" technique?
Posted by Ozandy, Monday, 12 January 2009 3:35:57 PM
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Celivia.
Same as I said to Yabby.

Its only an addiction and it can be dealt with through prayer or the 12 Steps, which in truth is prayer anyway.

I dont know about this constant pre-occupation with sex everyone seems involved with these days.

Dont you think it has "civilisation consequences" by encouraging a darker age with more sex crims?
Posted by Gibo, Monday, 12 January 2009 5:31:56 PM
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gibo, i think what a bunch us can't understand is some people's preoccupation with OTHER people's sex! It's cook's and the catholic church's preoccupation which is exactly the issue.

the rest of your post is so offensive as to be truly hilarious.
Posted by bushbasher, Monday, 12 January 2009 7:11:35 PM
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I see Bushbasher you havent studied the fall of civilisations much.

They get to a certain point... and then they are gone.

Every time its the same old stuff that brought them down.

One... they start to excess on sex, men with men, women with women, sometimes even worse.

Then they get into the worship of idols and goof off with witchcraft, which opens doors into the dark side of the spirit world and out floods the spirits to possess and corrupt even further.

Then finally they get into killing themselves... killing their unwanted babies just like we do.

Finally and suddenly its all over.
Theyve gone...and all thats left is are the ragged stragglers of what once was.

Soon comes the fall of the great Western civilisation as God triggers the period we christians call the TRIBULATION.
Hundreds of millions of christians are right now waiting for the end and Christs Second Coming.

You will want to be in church in those days.
Have you seen The Signs that we are in the End Times.
A good site.
Posted by Gibo, Monday, 12 January 2009 8:23:52 PM
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I do love the way some contributors to this forum like to bring overpopulation and contraception into the debate (again). Yes, the Catholic Church says "no" to contraception, but it also says "no" to fornication. There are also countless rules about when Catholics can and can't have sex - in fact, rules that could take the fun out of the whole exercise. Surely those Catholics out there who are serious about following the rules wouldn't need contraception, as they aren't having sex at the drop of a hat? Blaming the Catholic Church for the spread of disease or the rampant and uncontrollable population growth in developing countries is a bit of a reach.
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 13 January 2009 12:21:20 AM
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This forum seems to be forgeting that fact that the pope has very rarely throughout history made a dogmatic declaration deemed to be "infallible". The pope's statements on homosexuality are his personl opinion and are in no way intended to be regarded as dogmatic church teaching. I am also a member of the Roman Catholic Church and I regard my conscience as a guide which I also use in my ineractions with my fellow human beings. I am also involved in the broader dialogue on morality - so I also speak on church teaching.
Official Catholic teaching explicity says that the homosexual tendency is natural: so the Pope is actually contradicting this teaching if my impression of his speech is accurate. What the church rejects is the genital expression of homosexuality.....So that's what the debate should be about. The issue here seems to be that same sex genital activity does not lead to procreation. The same could be said of heterosexual copulation where contraception is used, or perhaps anal intercourse in a heterosexual couple.........
The problems is we never get to the issue.....this forum is a classic example of how we intelluctualise the conversation and even get bogged down in bigotry and damnation.....
We need to be more honest about sexual morality.....it's not about homosexuality and heterosexuality......It's about the dignity with whioch we treat our fellow human beings.
Posted by Macanudo, Tuesday, 13 January 2009 9:00:00 AM
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Well said, Macanudo. It is easy to get bogged down in bigotry and finger-pointing; I thnk also that taking a small section of a speech in isolation can be harmful to our understanding of the speech as a whole. At the end of the day, the Pope says what he thinks and it is up to us to agree or disagree.
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 13 January 2009 9:58:02 AM
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nice one Gibo, on the end of empire.

First they start to have sex, then they're into idol worship, then they discover supernaturalism, and then they kill themselves.

Next thing you know they'll discover dancing and rock 'n roll and wouldn't that be a disaster?
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 13 January 2009 2:24:05 PM
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Bennie’s post 12th Jan. 11:48am shows just how irrational anti-Catholics are.

Bennie says: “Homosexuality exists throughout nature, not just among humans.”
So what? Lots of animals eat their offspring. Does that mean it is okay for humans too? Also, numerous high order mammals arrange their heard with a dominant male at the top servicing a group of females. Do you think humans should adopt this polygamous type structure as well? After all it is in nature.

Bennie says: “…[there’s] a religious war happening in the M.E….”
And this relates to the Catholic Church how?

Bennie say: “Millions are dying from preventable HIV infections because the church says condoms are sinful.”
Wrong again bennie. Most people become HIV positive because either they or their spouse or their parents have not followed the Church’s teaching about being sexually chaste before marriage and sexually faithful to your spouse after marriage. Also, only about 15% of the world’s population is Catholic, so even if we pretend that all of that 15% obey Church teachings on the use of contraception, why would the remaining 85% of the world’s population who are not Catholic give a damn what the Church says about condoms?

Bennie says: “Child abuse by religious institutions continues in all parts of the world.”
Well it has been a problem in the past, but it seems to be improving. But of course nearly all child abuse occurs outside of the Catholic Church, and that’s a problem that seems to be getting worse every year.

Bennie says: “And you’re [the Church?] worried about what consenting adults do in their bedrooms?
Yes bennie we are. Immoral sexual conduct affects human society. Have you heard of the AIDS problem? I wonder if you think a wife should concern herself about her husband having consensual sex with another adult woman
Posted by collette, Wednesday, 14 January 2009 12:36:40 PM
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"What the church rejects is the genital expression of homosexuality.....So that's what the debate should be about."

fine. if someone believes this nonsense, then debate it. let's hear the argument. just please, no more vacuous condemnations about "violation of human dignity". no more unsupported god-given characterisations of "immoral sexual conduct". knock it off with the pre-fab doctrine and give us some bloody reasoning.
Posted by bushbasher, Wednesday, 14 January 2009 2:18:19 PM
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In reply to Macanudo, 13th Jan 9am.
You say as a Catholic you use your conscience as a guide in your interactions with other people. Are you sure you don’t mean you use your feelings as a guide? Isn’t a Catholic to use the Church’s moral laws as a guide in his/her actions? And isn’t conscience simply that inner voice that alerts the Catholic to the reality that they have transgressed the moral law as defined by the Church? Isn’t this why it is so important for Catholics to be well formed in the faith?

You also say: “Official Catholic teaching explicitly says that the homosexual tendency is natural…”
Mmmm, I must say I’ve never heard such a teaching. Would it have been hard to provide a link to this “explicit” teaching and thus prove that the Pope is, as you say, contradicting Church teaching?

Yes you’re right about the need for people to be more honest about sexual morality. Active homosexuals certainly don’t have a monopoly on sexual immorality, but they do seem to hiss and spit the most whenever the issue is raised.

And to “Bushbasher” @14th Jan 2:18pm, given that the speech being discussed was given by the Pope (the leader of an organization that believes it was instituted by God) and the speech was addressed to the Roman Curia (part of the same organization that believes it was instituted by God) wouldn’t you expect it to include all this God related stuff? You’re getting all worked up because the Church has a world view formed in part by its belief in a Creator God!
And people say Catholics are crazy.
Posted by collette, Wednesday, 14 January 2009 6:09:32 PM
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collette, i had no particular problem with the pope's speech. i found it silly, but in the scheme of things pretty inoffensive.

BUT, when cook writes of "violation of human dignity" i would like to know damn well why. and, if the church rejects the "genital expression of homosexuality" to the extent of actively supporting its criminalization, it is no longer sufficient to say it's simply a bunch of god people talking their god stuff. OF COURSE they talk of god. the question is why should anybody consider them to be more than a bunch of religiously inspired bigots?

this cannot be answered by appeals god. it has to do with the gratuitous moral condemnation of acts, and of people who do not share your god. appeals to god may be natural for you, but such appeals are an argument for nothing.
Posted by bushbasher, Wednesday, 14 January 2009 10:56:59 PM
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