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The Forum > Article Comments > The Sisterhood of Men-Baggers > Comments

The Sisterhood of Men-Baggers : Comments

By Klay Lamprell, published 28/11/2008

What would women think if women-bagging emails took up the same amount of cyberspace as those men-bagging ones do?

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"In the time I saved not reading emails from would-be comediennes about the sex-addicted, emotionally-vacant, mother-in-law-hating male of the species, I read that one in six Australian men suffer from depression at any given time, four times more young men than young women commit suicide, and the suicide rate for males aged 15 to 24 years has tripled in recent years."

Too true! I only just barely survived my brush with depression. People think that young women are subjected to intense pressure by the media but they have no idea about the overwhelming weight placed on young men by not only the popular media but also society in general. If you are told something often enough, you begin to believe it, tell someone there worthless enough times they will value themselves less. It is the law of continuos re-enforcement. May I suggest that the reason why men are the way they are is because (at least in some small way) of these emails and the expectations that someday-somehow a young man will turn out like this that is set up in peoples, not only women’s but mens also, minds.

This is one of the truest articles I have thus far read on OLO. Thanks.
Posted by Arthur N, Friday, 28 November 2008 10:03:06 AM
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I still remember, how many of my female colleagues thought is was funny to make jokes about Bobbit, who had his penis cut by his female partner.
Posted by JamesH, Friday, 28 November 2008 10:18:29 AM
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I trust that we are not going to invoke the wrath of revenge feminists by our contributions. I had a feeling that media portrayals of men were becoming negatively skewed from my infrequent viewing of TV commercials. Being an Olympics enthusiast (along with my partner- no gender bias, I found myself rivetted to Channel 7 for two weeks, watching the Beijing Olympics in between commercials, so I decided to keep a tally of gender portrayal in the commercials.

My findings? Although I didn't count the total of all commercials, I identified no less than 28 different commercials which clearly portrayed males negatively. They were portrayed as dorks, nerds, uncaring, thoughtless, sexist, sloppy, clumsy or just plain stupid. Individually, some of these ads were funny- very funny. The Telstra Bigpond series have already become legends (Emperor Nasi Goring and the Great Wall of China to keep out the rabbits). But collectively, like the barrage of emails Lamprell refers to (which I receive from a well-meaning female friend), one could readily gain the impression that a conspiracy is afoot.

Am I paranoid? Well, I checked out the converse- ie women being portrayed negatively. Result? One ad that portayed both the young man and woman as slobs- spilling crumbs over themselves as they slouched and gulped Dominos Pizzas. I may have missed one or two, but I did look hard and tried to set the bar low. In fact, in many of the ads that portrayed men negatively also portrayed women as smart. Others, without men, also portrayed them as smart.

Further, I tried to identify ads that portrayed men positively. They were hard to find. Certainly a few that were "neutral'- just a man standing there saying that there were bargains at store X etc.

The "sponsors" of these male-negative ads ranged from multinationals to local, and included MacDonalds, VW, Telstra, Motorola,Woolworths, Lenovo, LG,Coles, Dominos, Toyota, GE Money, Bunnings, Carlton Mid Strength and the Western Australian Electoral Commission.

And our men are depressed, suicidal and underachieving at school. It's life imitating art, if one could call TV commercials an art.
Posted by Jedimaster, Friday, 28 November 2008 10:41:11 AM
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Thank you Klay, a woman with the guts to tell the truth against the ‘sisters’ & for every hate mail ‘sister’ you will have a hundred ‘brothers’ who adore & respect you for it, maybe more women like you will see men start to wanting to 'be' with a women.

Men have had enough, funny how 40 years of male bashing is now returning to hurt women not only with ‘disposable relationships’, but I see huge numbers of men (and they are getting younger & younger) simply giving women a miss as not worth the trouble with women’s narcissism & double standards & enjoying life relationship free.

The two most common reasons I hear from guys after a break up is “I just got so sick of her constant put-downs” and “it’s impossible to have a meaningful relationship with someone when the only person in the relationship is her!
Posted by DVD, Friday, 28 November 2008 11:57:45 AM
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Don't be too hard on the ladies, they have a problem.

You see, they know they are the inferior gender.

Without this continuous bagging of men, they would have to admit it, to themselves. Their egos, boosted by years of this stuff, would not survive the truth. They even convince themselves that affirmative action is fair.

Notice that modern women have an emotional problem with making a cup of coffee, for a blobe, it's become demeaning for them these days. Come in, after hours slaving in the hot sun, [where's my violin], & you'll find them curled up with a book, & a coffee cup. You think you would love to have been offered one. Make one for yourself only, & you'll get a hard stare, or a comment like, "didn't notice I've got a mouth too, then", for your trouble.

What we all must remember, when we evaluate the relative merits of the male, & female mind, is the fact daytime television is made to appeal to the female version.

Enough said.

If you find your self saddled with one of these once nice ladies, turned into a Medusa, there is a cure. I can vouch for it, having used it a couple of times. LEARN TO SAIL. Learn to sail well.

Now take them for a long sail, just the 2 of you [on say a 40 footer], is important. Sydney to the Great Barrier reef, or to Lord Howe Is will sound attractive. Just one 4 hour watch, on deck, alone, on a dark windy night will have them accepting your superiority, & authority in all things.

On your return she will be putty in your hands, or leave you. Either way, you can't loose.

If she is not cowered into submission, you have found a gem. Just keep sailing, into the eternal happiness of equal opposites, but remember, it only works while you keep sailing, with one of these supreme models.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:03:55 PM
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Yep gender bagging is all one sided.

Thats why blond jokes are only about blond men, why father in law jokes are so common but not mother in law jokes. Thats why we don't see add's on TV where women are portrayed as nagging, sarcastic or overly pedantic. That would be why I've never recieved an email which has a laugh at female stereotypes.

Heu wait - most of the blond jokes I've heard have been about blond women, most in law comments are about mothers in law not fathers in law. I do regularly see add's on TV where women are characterised in a manner which does appear to portray them as nagg's, sarcastic or overly pedantic. I have read emails which poke fun at female stereotypes.

I do agree that in some ways male bagging gets too serious, that real harm can be done when people forget to have a laugh at stereotypes and start thinking people can be summed up by those stereotypes. I don't think the gender bagging is as one sided as the article or some posters have made out.

Part of the issue may be in what we consider as a negative portrayal.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:21:04 PM
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Part of the difference, perhaps, is that women are more emotionally dependent on men than men are on women. Making deprecatory jokes may be a way to cope with the dependence that many women still seem to feel. It's like cats and dogs; you say rude things about your dog because you love it, but I've seldom felt the urge to say rude things about a pet cat.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:35:11 PM
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What bothers me the most is not emails being circulated between friends that poke fun at stereotypes, I'm bothered by the way that the media(under extreme pressure from the government and feminist lobby groups) feel the need to censor anything that portrays women as their stereotypes where as any ad that makes fun of men is considered perfectly acceptable.

I am also bothered by the way the news paper is constantly filled with articles and opinion pieces saying that mainstream advertisement has an adverse affect on young womens body image. Although I disagree with censorship in general I would not be as concerned with these articles if they also mentioned the affect that other non-media based pressures can affect both young men and women.

4 people close to me have committed suicide and only one was a female, she suffered depression relating to her parents divorce and a sexual assault where as all three males had developed severe depression as a result of "locker room" pressure(some of it coming from myself which I have never forgiven myself) perceived as fun at the time and almost encouraged by sports coaches, teachers and parents not fully understanding the ramifications of this culture.

Women often say that because men often appear emotionally distant that they don't care, and that as a result making fun is ok. If the shoe were on the other foot and men went around openly insulting women it would create major unrest. Sexism exists on both sides and it will require a serious culture change to end.
Posted by Decledem, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:39:00 PM
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Great article. Male feminists are a big problem some of the most degrading people and the biggest apologists. I can't quite work out their mentality. It could be something about male competition, or it's simply ignorance/or a habit of placing women on a virginal pedestal...
Posted by Steel, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:40:18 PM
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Robert, I agree with you. After reading the article I scooted over to both my email accounts. Yep. There were the men jokes. There were also jokes about women ageing, jokes about blonde women, jokes about mothers-in-law, jokes about women drivers, ...jokes about kids by the score, jokes about Father Christmas, Religion and Politics. They were outweighed, however, by religious e.mails by the score: - until I sent a message round to everyone on my mailing list that I would no longer accept either those or stereo-typical gender jokes.

It was noteworthy that it was not my friends who sent these things but usually the kind of person who just presses a button to Send to All their contacts. So for good measure I blocked a whole lot of these people from my contact list.

I also noted that with one exception the majority of the gender-jokes came from Australian contacts, while the religious ones generally came from America and South Africa.Though I was very much tempted to draw some sort of conclusion from that, I wilfully refrained.

I suggest that the author - and some posters - either weeds out their Contacts box or recruits some new and different people to it.
Posted by Romany, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:46:26 PM
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Just as well the article was written by a woman...

The problem, as I see it, is that jokes about the inadequacies of men as perceived by women are entirely unactionable by the sex-discrimination commissioner, yet the converse, jokes about the perceived inadequacies of women by men, are punishable quite harshly.

It's the double standard that is practised so heavily in favour of women at Governmental level that I get my back up about. I think women are great; in fact, in common with most men in our country, I was raised to the idea of "women and children first". I have no issue with women having a privileged position, but I do resent the way many have responded to their privilege like spoiled, entitled brats. It is most apparent among women who have been through the university system in the past 10 or 15 years, since their entire lives have been spent in the feminist utopia.

It may simply be a reaction to years of oppression, but the vilification of men by women who will never have to compete on other than privileged terms with men is quite egregious. I hope a decent balance is found before our society is feminised into oblivion.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:57:45 PM
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"I suggest that the author - and some posters - either weeds out their Contacts box or recruits some new and different people to it."

If you had read the article with some honesty, rather than being leaping to deny the occurence of these details (the comments are enlightening to), you may have noticed these people she either works with/or are her friends-in other words, it's so commonplace now because feminist propaganda has ensured that it is "normal" to do this. Again, read the comments too. You also may have noticed that this goes beyond mere emails.
Posted by Steel, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:58:42 PM
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I can't believe everyone is so sensitive. Being male. I love the male "put-down" jokes and they are always the first I send to my female friends. It's all "water off a duck's back" as far as I'm concerned and whether it's an Irish joke, a medical joke, a religious joke, a female joke or whatever, as long as it's clever and strikes a chord, who cares if it has an element of truth. Surely that's what makes it amusing.
Posted by snake, Friday, 28 November 2008 1:52:32 PM
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I did read the article “honestly”. Yes, some of these jokes were coming from work-mates. Workmates can often be people one knows only slightly or peripherally. Which is why a polite note to all often works. These are often the very people who press the Send To All button. The worst response one could get is “Where’s your sense of humour?” Those counted as friends usually know one well enough to know what one finds amusing and to accept a reminder of what one doesn’t. But, if not, adding some like-minded souls or organizations to one’s mailing list often does wonders to upgrade the annoying emails. Those were my points. What is dishonest about them?

I am so sick and tired of the words “liar” “dishonest” being flung around these threads. I can only conclude that truth and honesty are imperfectly understood concepts as people make free with these concept in such casual and cavalier ways. Jeez, mate. Tell me I’m wrong, or a busybody or unrealistic. But dishonest?

“…in other words, it's so commonplace now because feminist propaganda has ensured that it is "normal" to do this.” That, right there, is an interpretation I don’t agree with so I pointed out that emails enjoining one to send on Angels, or prayers etc. were also endemic. I was highlighting the fact that nuisance emails come in all shapes and sizes and not just ani-male. I was trying to do so in a non-combative way. Is that dishonest?

I was, perhaps, narrowing the topic in terms of not engaging in The Great Evil Feminist mantra, however, I linked my post quite clearly to Roberts’s words concerning, specifically, emails. Is that dishonest?

I did read the comments and took note of exactly who it was who was posting. I was trying, in my fluttery, muddled and feminine way, not to fan the flames of infantile gender warfare again by pointing out both that nuisance emails cover the spectrum and that there is a way to cope with them. Honestly.
Posted by Romany, Friday, 28 November 2008 2:05:33 PM
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Us men do exactly the same thing. Men have apparently embraced feminine dissimulation and engage the same cowardly passive-aggressive projection of our own gender ressentiments and insecurities. Battles of the ego are folly and everyone ends up looking childish.

To wit...

There's a reason why marriage is called MATRImony rather than patrimony. Ever noticed how fiance is one N away from finance? Did someone drop the E before the Y in matrimony? Why is the gaming console more interesting to him than you? (hint, its not him). Why are there so many internet widows?

All nonsense of course, but there's so much pent up ressentiment b/w the sexes, so much latent hostility having emerged over the last few decades, its hard to imagine positive change any time soon.

Political correctness has a way of flipping prejudices, repressing one prejudice and validating another. It may be better to let people voice their thoughts and feelings without restraint. That way we can all see it and the nonsense will expose itself. When folks get their gripes off their chests, they feel better about being heard and that has a way of dissipating their hangups.

Stiffling discourse about personal discontent drives it deeper, augmenting the hostility, until it MANifests (oops) in uninteded ways. One of which may be the 'man shortage.' Hositily is very unattractive. Paradoxically, scaring men off, just makes women more insecure which feeds the hosility. Maybe this proliferation in man-bashing is an indicator of that. It points to the possibility that women might be the architects of their own discontent in this case.

Let people speak. l would rather know what women really think about men than dance with the pretence. l might learn something about myself that may benefit from change.

l dont think this stuff damages males. Quite the contrary. It opens our eyes. You realise that its a case of 'sticks and stones' and 'what you say is what you are' school-yard level stuff. To wit... l am man, hear me fart, burp and snore... or not.
Posted by trade215, Friday, 28 November 2008 4:47:47 PM
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Oh yeah, l just cant resist...

Men are a breeding experiment run by women.
Posted by trade215, Friday, 28 November 2008 4:57:00 PM
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It is simply not PC to bag women / Blacks / Aborigines / jews / children etc.

Men are the only safe territory left
Posted by Democritus, Friday, 28 November 2008 9:01:27 PM
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Isn't the real culprit here a lame sense of humour?
Posted by Veronika, Saturday, 29 November 2008 2:26:01 AM
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Romany, your posts have been greatly appreciated. I've now realised why I've received so many adds for enhancement of a particular body part, advertisers are reading far to much into that speding fine I copped in NSW 13 years ago - I really didn't know the speed zone had changed, really I didn't.

Veronika, I don't think it's so much a lame sense of humour but rather missing how much of this stuff does target women and other "protected" groups. It's funny if it's spread around, it's bullying if it continues to single out the same group.

From my perspective the argument is really about how one sided this stuff is. I've seen plenty of it that pokes fun at steroetypes of women, much of it passed onto me by women so I don't consider it as one sided as others do.

Now if the article was about the messages governments fund about the genders I'd be in a different place.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 29 November 2008 7:06:59 AM
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All the typical feminist/mangina lame excuses for justifing a basic one sided demeaning & degrading gender bashing of men and boys.

How come society finds male bashing funny and female bashing sexist eh?
Posted by DVD, Saturday, 29 November 2008 8:34:48 AM
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Robert: "It's funny if it's spread around, it's bullying if it continues to single out the same group."

I thought stuff was funny if it made you laugh?

I get what you're saying R0bert, but I find the whole argument idiotic. As far as humour goes, nothing is sacred and it's all up for grabs. If people still like Kevin Bloody Wilson, and unbelievably they do, then Kevin Bloody Wilson's material connects with his audience, no matter how unsubtly it rams home its racism and misogyny.

I saw a stand-up routine about a year ago, and the guy started talking about "femo-nazis". The audience became palpably embarrassed for him — not because anyone was offended, but because it's not 1987 anymore and it seemed hopelessly outdated and very not amusing.

Different audiences. He should play to the Kevin Bloody Wilson crowd.

I find those lame emails about as offensive as I do blonde jokes. That is, not at all. And attempts to instruct people about what they should laugh at I find precious and prudish and dull.
Posted by Veronika, Saturday, 29 November 2008 9:24:03 AM
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I tend to agree with Veronika. Thank you RObert for your evenhandeness and ability to see the issue from all sides.

Let's be honest the emails that go around are spread pretty evenly between the genders. The humour is based on the usual stereotypes that we can all relate to even if sometimes the jokes portray the more extreme version of those stereotypes. Those that suggest that these emails only bag men obviously have some deeper unresolved issues.

It is easy to be blind to the bagging of the opposite sex than towards ourselves - so lets try to keep a realistic view on this.

The Ad about the size of the boy's penis in an effort to reduce reckless driving was I think ill advised. It is true that boys and men suffer from depression in greater numbers than we realise and these sorts of Ads do nothing for fostering feelings of self-worth among boys.

The light hearted bagging of emails is neither here nor there although a closer gender analysis might disagree. Why don't we just accept our differences (real or imagined) and just get along?

This article could have easily been written from another point of view ie. 'The Brotherhood of Women-Baggers".

The response would have been varied depending on the gender of the author.
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 29 November 2008 9:28:08 AM
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Pelican said,
"This article could have easily been written from another point of view ie. 'The Brotherhood of Women-Baggers"."

Exactly, I was thinking the same thing after reading the article.

I find most gender jokes quite similar and boring. Women always nag or talk too much, play violins, smell fishy, have too large or too small boobs (equivalent of small penis jokes?), and of course, are terrible drivers...

I've seen TShirts with gender bagging cartoons or slogans, too.

Nothing to be alarmed or frustrated about, they're just jokes.

I have the feeling that these jokes are becoming less popular- people must be getting quite bored with them.

Lately, I've received some scare-mongering emails about Islam and I'm far more concerned about these than about some boring gender jokes.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 29 November 2008 1:26:34 PM
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‘For the sake of a few small laughs, the same women who argue the case for equal rights and opportunities are sustaining a culture of gender-based discrimination.’

No, they are not.

If, by ‘the same women who argue the case for equal rights and opportunities’, the author is referring to feminism, then she is promoting the biggest and most widespread lie ever perpetrated about this movement.

Jokes about men’s supposed stupidity are NOT feminist. They are the very opposite of feminism.

Feminism is a political movement towards gender equality. Jokes about women’s supposed intellectual superiority to men have nothing to do with politics and even less to do with equality. They are perpetrated by the same kinds of one-dimensional minds that create jokes about tits, bums, farts, poo, piss, dumb blonds, mothers-in-law, boongs, chinks, towelheads, abbos, gays, booze and old people’s blocked plumbing.

Genuine feminist humour – like… ‘It starts when you sink in his arms. It ends with your arms in his sink’ – is much more about the folly of women, not men. It ridicules society’s indoctrination of women to overly romanticise men and marriage, and the negative repercussions when that romanticism collides with reality.

Likewise, genuine feminist quips about women needing men ‘like a fish needs a bicycle’/ ‘moose needs a hatrack’ are about cautioning against society’s indoctrination of women to overly depend on men to the detriment of their own personal and professional development.

The feminist movement is NOT, and never has been, about making men look stupid. In perpetrating this myth, the author is not only betraying her own ignorance, but also the tragedy of a generation that has become the victims of two decades of gender wars disinformation.
Posted by SJF, Saturday, 29 November 2008 10:04:36 PM
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SJF,

In part I would agree with you, after reading Mynra Blythes book "Spin Sisters", I think we could really lay the blame right at the door step of the media for some, if not all of the misinformation.

<The feminist movement is NOT, and never has been, about making men look stupid>

The feminist movement may not be to blame, but there are definite individuals, within this movement who are to blame.

Now back to humour, humour is a personal thing, for example I find Kevin bloody wilson revolting, other people find him funny (I dont know why?) So humour comes down to personal taste, or lack there of.

What one group may find funny, another will find it to be offensive.

So what do we do?

Do we ban all forms of humour? Just in case it offends someone?

Why are blonde jokes one liners?

That is so brunettes can understand them.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 30 November 2008 6:44:10 AM
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SJF makes extremely good points. The emails have been published without attribution. I take this to mean that we don't know the gender of the authors.

'an extensive survey of some men I know' is not 'research' and there is no evidence presented about why men send these emails on, despite the conclusions made.

The 'locker room pressure' (above) felt by men is part of patriarchy so it is interesting that this too is blamed on women.

Men are definitely victims of partiarchy. People who have studied feminism are very aware of the cultural pressures placed on men. Patriarchy is part of culture in which we grow up. We are all touched by it. It is just that women are more inclined to critique it whereas men feel even more threatened in questioning it because there is not as much acceptability of developing alternative roles and behaviours for them.

Female feminists have other feminists to turn to for support yet who do men have if they want to challenge the treatment they receive from other men?

Unfortunately most men never get so far into the topic as to begin to understand how the pressures they are raised with can and should be questioned. We end up with the suicides mentioned earlier. These public point-scoring debates between 'us' and 'them' just reiterate the whole cycle when hopefully what we all want is to better understand ourselves and each other.
Posted by Rosie Williams, Sunday, 30 November 2008 10:51:40 AM
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JamesH (and general commentary)

I haven't read 'Spin Sisters' but I don't think women's magazines should be viewed as a tool of feminism (if that's what the author is doing). Women's mags have evolved out of a strictly conservative women's tradition, which still dominates the industry.

Also, re your point that humour is a personal thing, most would agree with you. However, humour also has other functions - as a socio-political tool to keep certain groups on the outside of the mainstream and to give voice to pervading but often unexpressed social anxieties.

Recently, the feminist discussion group I belong to had a session on this topic – i.e. the advent of ‘stupid man’ humour – which we all agreed seemed to have burst onto the scene in about the mid-90s and has increased significantly just in the last few years.

A couple of ideas we threw around were:

• It is not a feminist style of humour, but it definitely seems to involve some kind of reactive response to feminism. In particular, it seems to have coincided with the waning of castration-anxiety humour which was itself a major reaction against the perceived gains of feminism in the 70s and 80s. Also, the ‘dimwitted bloke’ appears to be a distant cousin of the more politically correct SNAG, but he’s a much easier target to lampoon.

• Globalisation has decimated the Western manufacturing sector – particularly in the US – by sending it offshore to chase lower and lower labour costs. This process has particularly intensified the decline of the working-class man (aka ‘blokes’). Like the ‘stupid Irishman’ joke – which was created to justify draconian British colonial policy in Ireland –‘stupid bloke’ humour seems to be a socio-political justification for globalisation. After all, if blokes are so 'stupid', then they must the reason for their own 'failure'.

Make of this what you will.

Sorry to get so hoity-toity intellectual, folks … but humour is a very serious business!
Posted by SJF, Sunday, 30 November 2008 12:10:57 PM
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My favourite gender joke has always been:

Q. Why do women wear make-up and perfume?
A. Because they're ugly and the smell.

To me, a perfect little joke in its own way — easy pay-off, very silly, very giggly. (To me, I emphasis again. As James says, humour is very personal.)

I agree with everyone who's pointed out that there's nothing remotely feminist about these jokes. (That is, the ones in the original article.) They remind me of nothing so much as the "Mere Male" columns in No Idea-type magazines, hardly feminist propoganda.

I think the best defence against humour that relies on bland cliches about sex, race or whatever (I'm talking about the unfunny stuff — not the good jokes about sex, race or whatever) is to satirise it in turn. The Office, for example, did this beautifully.

Oh, and anyone remember Viz magazine? They used to do a great line in faux "top tips" such as you'd see in women's magazines:

"A hedgehog trained to scuttle up and down the table makes an unusual mobile pineapple and cheese cube nibble dispenser."

"Olympic athletes. Disguise the fact you've taken steroids by running slower."

"A small coniferous tree in the corner of your living room is an excellent place to store Christmas decorations!"

Of course, Viz took the p!ss out of blokes too. Sid the Sexist was actually a virgin who lived with his mother.

Oh, good times.
Posted by Veronika, Sunday, 30 November 2008 1:22:01 PM
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Omg, same con job all the time, butter wouldn’t melt in a feminist’s mouth.

Feminism is a political movement for women only & bug-er everyone else & guys if you don’t like it tough, ve haft vays of making you comply, nobody is allowed to reject feminism ve are the only way & de only ones who are right.

We can demean & degrade you in any way we want in jokes or otherwise but don’t you dare try it with us you sexist pig.

Humanist cares about all people & society, the only reason people call themselves feminist is so they can exclude caring about anybody but themselves.

All the males we know have never heard a feminist tell an anti-feminist joke.
Posted by DVD, Sunday, 30 November 2008 3:47:47 PM
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DVD: "All the males we know have never heard a feminist tell an anti-feminist joke."

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One, and it's not funny.

Veronika the feminist
xxx
Posted by Veronika, Sunday, 30 November 2008 3:58:42 PM
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DVD, have you heard this one?

Q: How many anti-feminist men does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Just one. He holds on to the bulb and waits for the world to revolve around his needs.

Wanna tissue?
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 30 November 2008 4:01:03 PM
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Veronika, LOL.

I hadn't refreshed the page so I wasn't aware that you posted a joke already.

Glad we chose different ones :)
Now DVD needs 2 tissues. Booohoooo!
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 30 November 2008 4:04:53 PM
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SJF,

the point I was trying to make is that the media, will manipulate any story possible, for the best effect, to sell papers/mags, or to improve the ratings.

Whilst the media is open to manipulation, the media also manipulates.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 30 November 2008 6:19:43 PM
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I haven't laughed so hard for a while reading some of the posts.

James, I hadn't heard the one about brunettes. Now I realise why I understand all the blond jokes! Thank you for that information.....

Why does Klay read those emails that she finds stupid and unfunny? I agree that some of the email junk is boring, but some is quite funny. Not only jokes about men, but children, work, religion, nationalities and women.

Romany gives some great advice. Very disciplined of you not to make any comment on the sources of your emails by the way! Fascinating, your observation on the origins of subject matter.

It is just too silly to think that there are no longer any jokes aimed at women anymore. Some paranoids are buying too much into propaganda of a sinister conspiracy that feminists are supposedly masterminding. What a joke! We're daughters, sisters, mothers and/or lovers of men you know.

Here's a couple aimed at women:

Why do men break wind more than women?
- Because women can't shut up long enough to build up the pressure.

After a quarrel, a wife said to her husband, 'You know, I was a fool when I married you.' The husband replied, 'Yes, dear, but I was in love and didn't notice.'
Posted by Anansi, Sunday, 30 November 2008 6:50:58 PM
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Anansi>"I haven't laughed so hard for a while reading some of the posts."

article>"...I read that one in six Australian men suffer from depression at any given time, four times more young men than young women commit suicide, and the suicide rate for males aged 15 to 24 years has tripled in recent years."

Anansi>"Why does Klay read those emails that she finds stupid and unfunny?"

article>"In the time I saved not reading emails from would-be comediennes"

Anansi>" I agree that some of the email junk is boring, but some is quite funny."

article>"I read that one in six Australian men suffer from depression at any given time, four times more young men than young women commit suicide, and the suicide rate for males aged 15 to 24 years has tripled in recent years."

-=-=-=
Sexist Humor No Laughing Matter, Psychologist Says

ScienceDaily (Nov. 7, 2007) — A research project led by a Western Carolina University psychology professor indicates that jokes about blondes and women drivers are not just harmless fun and games; instead, exposure to sexist humor can lead to toleration of hostile feelings and discrimination against women.
=-=-=-=

As long as women shut the hell up about women jokes everywhere, I'm fine with it. That means no more cries of misogyny and other bull!@#$.

Otherwise read the end of the author's article.
Posted by Steel, Sunday, 30 November 2008 7:11:21 PM
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Rosie Williams

You are a kindred spirit!

Veronika

Good point about New Idea’s ‘Mere Male’ section, which pre-dates second-wave feminism by about a thousand years.

In fact, I get very annoyed at how so much tired old battle-of-the-sexes humour, when used by women against men, has been ignorantly passed off as ‘feminist humour’ – when it has nothing to do with feminism.

Genuine feminist humour is specific to the aims of feminism. This, from Gloria Steinem, is a good example of distinctly feminist humour:

‘If men could menstruate they would brag about how long and how much.... Congress would fund a National Institute of Dysmenorrhea... and religious fundamentalists would cite menstruation as-proof that only men could... be priests and ministers.’

Feminist humour also focuses on jokes specific to women having to cope in a man’s world … like work-life balance, tampon merchandising, Cinderella fantasy etc.

JamesH

‘Whilst the media is open to manipulation, the media also manipulates.’

Agree absolutely. But I’m not quite sure what your point is in relation to this topic.

Steel

Re suicide and depression relative to gender…

‘For every completed male suicide there are five attempts. For every completed female suicide there are 35 attempts.’ [http://www.wesleymission.org.au/publications/r&d/suicide.htm]

‘Depression alone affects approximately 1.3 million Australian women ever year, compared with 750,000 men.’
[http://www.news-medical.net/?id=14008]

Men are more ‘successful’ at suicide mainly because they mostly use more violent methods (guns, hanging) which have immediate effects. Women mostly use more passive methods (drugs, carbon monoxide), which take longer and consequently may lead to a change of mind or intervention by another party.
Posted by SJF, Monday, 1 December 2008 9:11:26 AM
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Commentator, radio journalist and blogger Glenn Sacks has run a number of campaigns to get letters of protest against 'man bashing' media.

Here is an earlier one, http://www.glennsacks.com/volvo.php Subscribe to Glenn's newsletters! they're unbelievable
Posted by partTimeParent, Monday, 1 December 2008 11:16:10 AM
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SJF>"Men are more ‘successful’ at suicide mainly because they mostly use more violent methods (guns, hanging) which have immediate effects. Women mostly use more passive methods (drugs, carbon monoxide)"

So more men die? I think the problem is greater. I wouldn't count so-called faux suicide attempts, real suicide attempts. I doubt the research makes any differentiation about this. For example, two occassions I have heard of, both were male, both were "passive". Both were successful. Are men more competent than women, or *more serious about suicide*?

And about the depression 'statistics' that you seem to swallow so easily without a second thought, it's widely known that men suck it up, that it is socially stigmatised for men, and that there is less reporting of it. It would be interesting to know the age bracket they chose for the research also as i have some other details that i will refrain from mentioning.
Posted by Steel, Monday, 1 December 2008 11:20:20 AM
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On either side of the gender wars there are zealots who would choke first before admitting there was any stereotyping of the other sex.

The author puts forward the quite reasonable proposition that "perhaps men could do with a little less bagging", having said earlier "To be fair, the typecasting is often applied to both genders". Frankly I find nothing wrong with any of that. Of course men are due some understanding and apology for the relentless sledging, some of it vicious and dehumanising that they have received, especially as husbands and fathers, over the last thirty years.

For crying out loud, there is even a government sponsored advertisement that strongly implies that all men and boys are abusers of women and girls if given a chance. This is despite the fact that all but a few men are revulsed by violence and are wonderful protectors of their partners and families. Equally, some women are neglecters and abusers of their families and menfolk. This has become more apparent in recent times where the media has become slightly less restrained in reporting crimes by mothers against children.

So yes, many men re right to be used and abused by the sterotyping aimed at them and by people who should know better but probably have a vested interest in the gender wars continuing.

It is not as simple as 'Harden up, Diddums', because some of the jokes that stereotype men and boys are about hate, plain and simple. Of course we should object to these jokes as we would complain about similar jokes about women, gays or whatever. Of course the bully's first defence is that the victim should harden up because was 'only' a joke and there would seem to be a bit of bullying going on here.
Posted by Cornflower, Monday, 1 December 2008 11:31:25 AM
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I think SJF *is* feminist humour. Oh, to be a fly on the wall in those feminist discussion groups.

I think men should all be aiming NOT to encourage further PC restraints on the world. If men are the last bastion of un-blanded PC thought, and dont turn into the equivalent of whiny feminists playing the victim all the time that's a good thing. Keep the jokes and good natured ribbing coming. Rather than censoring portrayals of men in advertising, we should STOP censoring portrayals of women.

With all the sad sacks posting here, it wont be long before men stop giving each other offensive nicknames, start remembering each others birthdays, and start watching McLeod's Daughters and Grey's Anatomy.

Q: Why do most men die before their wives?

A: Because they want to.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Monday, 1 December 2008 2:28:28 PM
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Usual Suspect,

I like this one better

Married men live longer than single men,
but married men are more willingly to die for their country.
Posted by JamesH, Monday, 1 December 2008 2:47:52 PM
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Music and the arts would posit that males tend to admire their sexual complement. Just think about the number of songs and poems admiring women vis-a-vis women about men. I think, we men, are very glad there are women and we appreciate their being.
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 1 December 2008 3:02:09 PM
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I've got another one.

Q. Why are there so many shelters for battered wives?
A. Because they won't f*&%ing listen!

Oliver: "I think, we men, are very glad there are women and we appreciate their being."

And vice versa, with bells on.
Posted by Veronika, Monday, 1 December 2008 4:51:00 PM
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Oliver

I wouldn't even be alive today if not for a few significant men who have selflessly helped me at different times in my life. I really loath stereotyping of anyone and these threads are often vile and pointless.

Except that a few of the jokes are really funny.

"Why does it take 100 million sperm to fertilize one egg?

Because not one will stop and ask for directions."
Posted by Fractelle, Tuesday, 2 December 2008 7:56:45 AM
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Veronika & Celivia way to go thanks so much for proving my points. Great stuff meow,spit, hiss.

Boo hoo tissue was feminist#12 male put down I think, don't stop now trot out all the others. This is good.

Got the tissues thanks lol

Having a different opinion to feminists, worth it's weight in gold.
Posted by DVD, Tuesday, 2 December 2008 11:51:49 PM
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DVD if it makes you feel better

Q How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A Thats not funny!

Q How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A Just One

Q How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A None - feminists can't change a thing

Q How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A 20 - 1 to change it, the rest to make a documentary about it

Q What do the Yeti and a smart feminist have in common?
A You keep hearing about them but you never see any

A radical feminist is getting on a bus when, just in front of her, a man gets up from his seat. She thinks to herself, "Here's another man trying to keep up the customs of a patriarchal society by offering a poor, defenseless woman his seat," and she pushes him back onto the seat.
A few minutes later, the man tries to get up again. She is insulted again and refuses to let him up. Finally, the man says, "Look, lady, you've got to let me get up. I'm two miles past my stop already."

Feminists are OK, I just wouldn't want my sister to marry one

I read a number of blogs while doing some background reading on this topic. Clearly some feminists do have a problem with certain humour, others love it both give and take. Some have written of the difficulty having to watch their words around their more earnest sisters. Others have made the point that jokes are often a good way of dealing with differences.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 6:55:44 AM
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I'm not sure if we've done this one yet:

Q. How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. Two. One to change it and the other to berate any man who offers to help.

R0bert, thoughtful words. There are feminists who are very humourless and I find it very tiresome. In the 80s, there were feminists who'd make you feel guilty about wearing lipstick, for godsake. I remember a friend of mine once had a go at me for shaving my legs.

But no social movement works through guilt-tripping its own support base. And every social movement, as in every human activity, thrives if it accepts it's own foibles and has the humility to laugh at itself. And there's plenty of feminists who don't buy into the politicisation of humour (which is not related to political humour, by the way).

No one should have the right NOT to be offended.
Posted by Veronika, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 10:31:39 AM
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The test is for men to try some anti-women jokes at work or with customers. Of course such behaviour could land them in hot water through a complaint of sexual harassment.

Sexual harassment:

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/pages/adb_harassment

Of course men should be offended by the sort of 'joke' about wife beating related by Veronika. It is intended to further the stereotype of men as violent molesters of women. There are men who are assaulted by women and they find it very hard to get their complaints treated seriously either because stereotypically, women are seen as nurturers, incapable of violence.

There is a gulf of difference between making a joke about the mental rigidity or lack of humour of a feminist and implying that all men violate women.

Celivia and others know very well the effect over time of stereotyping, vilification and hate jokes and it is to their very great discredit that they seek to excuse and make light of the anti-male jokes that are being used to sledge men and boys.

Ethically speaking, if Celivia, Veronika and others believed what they say they would be advocating change to the anti-discrimination laws. After all, if it is acceptable to make certain jokes on OLO and in public, why should a female worker be able to complain about similar comments, jokes and behaviour at work?

I notice that the avowed feminists who make light of their anti-male jokes have not tried to similarly stretch the envelope with gay and ethnic jokes. However this is a very good opportunity for them to demonstrate how gays and ethnics should be as broad shouldered as men in copping some 'good natured' chaffing.

After all, these are 'only' jokes, right? Sure would lighten up the atmosphere to sledge a few Aboriginals, yes? 'I have men (Aboriginal, Muslim etc) friends and this is only a joke' sounds more and more like the excuse of the school bully, not adults who are trying to get along with one another and lessen, not increase, the artificial gender divide.
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 11:58:42 AM
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<<Ethically speaking, if Celivia, Veronika and others believed what they say they would be advocating change to the anti-discrimination laws. After all, if it is acceptable to make certain jokes on OLO and in public, why should a female worker be able to complain about similar comments, jokes and behaviour at work?>>

The joke about women's shelters does not suggest that all men beat women up. It satirizes the view that all men beat women up.

And if men are offended by it or don't get it, or a woman is offended by a similar joke directed at women, so what? I want to live in a country where freedom of expression is a higher value than anyone's right not to be offended. I like offense. I think it's a sign of a healthy, free society.

I certainly don't think people should be discriminated against in a work situation. However, I don't necessarily agree that making jokes is discrimination. Or that it is advisable to outlaw it. We cannot legislate what people find funny.

I don't believe the best way to convince people that racism and sexism are rather stupid premises on which to base a worldview by legislating against them. I think we do it by airing them, by arguing them, by satirising them.
Posted by Veronika, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 1:25:29 PM
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Veronika

'There are feminists who are very humourless and I find it very tiresome.'

Are there? Or is this another one of those persistent myths about what 'some' feminists do, that is designed to implicate all feminists by its sheer repetition. When repeated persistently over a long period of time, people lose the ability to question it - even feminists themselves.

The myth of the humourless feminist is like the myth of the bra burner ... Feminists never burned their bras, but the lie has been told for so long and so often that even many feminists assume it to be the truth.

Try spending a night at a Germaine Greer lecture. She's one of the funniest public speakers I've ever encountered. Also, there are quite a few witty feminist websites, like Feministing, which are great at taking the piss out of feminism's sworn enemies.

In fact, I've never met a feminist who doesn't know how to have a good laugh. The difference is that they don't laugh at humour that degrades or belittles women. Why should they? Why should anyone?

If you find that feminists are humourless, perhaps you're telling the wrong sort of jokes.
Posted by SJF, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 1:26:54 PM
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"There are men who are assaulted by women and they find it very hard to get their complaints treated seriously either because stereotypically, women are seen as nurturers, incapable of violence."

Men who complain about violence by women are often viewed as weak or even gay by other men because they dared to speak up. The fear of such a response prevents others from speaking up. If it was ok for men to be more outspoken about violence committed against them by women then society might just begin to realise how big a problem this is.
Posted by misschief, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 1:35:24 PM
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misschief,

Agree but that should be: 'Men who complain about violence by women are often viewed as weak or even gay by other men AND WOMEN because they dared to speak up.'

Of course there are tasteless jokes about men being assaulted/dominated by their wives - which only serve to send the problem deeper underground. If it is all so funny, why is the fellow with the split scalp not laughing?
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 4 December 2008 3:54:41 AM
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Cornflower et al

“…they would be advocating change to the anti-discrimination laws.”
The only changes to the anti-discrimination laws that I would consider advocating for are our religious school’s exemptions from the anti-sex discrimination laws.

Although I recognise that there are some jokes that are hateful and some can be out of place, I can see no harm in laughing at the kind of jokes posted by people on this thread.

As an example of what I'd call hateful would be the racist tirade by Michael Richards (Kramer) some time ago.

In contrast, take someone like Steady-Eddy, with totally different intentions. His jokes could offer relief and understanding.
Others tell jokes to help make a point, or because humour makes it easier to discuss a controversial issue, or a taboo.

I think that it’s not so much the jokes themselves that can be either taken as humour or insult, but it all depends on the intention of the joker, the context, the timing, the place and how well one knows his/her public or readers.

Like Veronika, I do value freedom of expression. I value it more than political correctness.
If we have to be pc all of the time we’ll have to tip-toe around women and men, the tall and the short, the coloured and the white, the elderly and the young, the religious and the atheist, the dumb and the smart, the obese and the skinny, the fornicators and the celibate, the rich and the poor, the blondes, brunettes, and the mothers-in-law, too.
Select any group in our society and there will be jokes to be found directed at them.

‘Targets’ just have to realise that jokes are part of life and that most jokers don’t mean harm. Life would be pretty boring and restricted if we had to live without this form of expression.

Jokers, on the other hand, need to make sure that their intention is healthy.
Expressing anger by aiming hurtful jokes or ridicule at certain people is not a healthy way of managing anger.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 4 December 2008 7:26:25 AM
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[Celivia] ‘Like Veronika, I do value freedom of expression. I value it more than political correctness.’

Expression is a two-way street.

If you value freedom of expression, then you have to also value the right of people to EXPRESS their distaste for certain types of humour, especially genres that target certain groups. More importantly, you have to value people’s right to EXPRESS concern for how such humour may negatively affect the self-esteem of the targeted group and society’s perception of it.

‘Targets’ just have to realise that jokes are part of life and that most jokers don’t mean harm.

I disagree. The sort of jokes that base their humour on social 'targets' DO mean harm – because the underlying agenda is to assert superiority over the targeted group, while hiding behind the guise of just having a bit of fun.

If these jokes didn’t have a harmful purpose, albeit often mildly so, why do so many people refrain from using them out of concern for their effect on people? Of course, some can be quite funny, but I'm sure that I speak for many people in saying that the underlying malevolence has a way of cancelling out the fun.

‘Life would be pretty boring and restricted if we had to live without this form of expression.’

I would argue the very opposite. It’s target-based humour that is boring and restrictive – because it is based on a narrow, one-dimensional mindset.
Posted by SJF, Thursday, 4 December 2008 8:07:43 AM
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Celivia

Spot-on post. Two people can tell the same joke, but one could tell it so that I'm rolling about laughing and the other could make me feel reviled.

A good example of the former is George Carlin - nothing and no-one is sacred and he is hilarious. May he rest in peace.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5L2CxRMG4

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=WolxBmLpN4w&feature=related

Hopefully everyone here will be offended at something he says.

;-)
Posted by Fractelle, Thursday, 4 December 2008 8:24:32 AM
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<<If you find that feminists are humourless, perhaps you're telling the wrong sort of jokes.>>

If it's a choice between the "wrong" sort of joke and the "right" sort, then I goddamn hope I'm telling the wrong ones. Personally, I don't see that dichotomy though — I see funny joke and non-funny jokes.

I agree with you about a lot of things. I think Germaine is hilarious too, and absolutely there's heaps of funny feminists out there. I also take your point about the myth of humourless feminists. (But I have to say that they do exist. And why shouldn't they? There are pollies and public servants and police officers and every other group possible who take themselves too seriously too.) I'd also defend the right of anybody who wants to express how other people's humour offends them.

BUT, as I said earlier, I don't think believe we can demand others don't offend us or restrict their right to do so. I also don't think trying to control other people's joke-telling is an effective political strategy. Like I said earlier, I like offensiveness and think it an integral part of democracy. The best weapon against objectionable ideas is satire and powerful argument and soaring rhetoric. By ripping off their clothes (metaphorically) and revealing the true motivations behind their humour.

Celivia: "Life would be pretty boring and restricted if we had to live without this form of expression."

SJF: "I would argue the very opposite.It's target-based humour that is boring and restrictive – because it is based on a narrow, one-dimensional mindset."

Those aren't the options. We either restrict humour to stuff that doesn't offend or we keep it free to be either offensive or not.

Fractelle: LOVE IT! Thank you for introducing me. He's like a prototype Sarah Silveman. My favourite joke of her is: "I want to get an abortion. But my boyfriend and I are having trouble conceiving."
Posted by Veronika, Thursday, 4 December 2008 11:25:09 AM
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SJF...

"Genuine feminist humour is specific to the aims of feminism. This, from Gloria Steinem, is a good example of distinctly feminist humour:

‘If men could menstruate they would brag about how long and how much.."

SJF...

"The sort of jokes that base their humour on social 'targets' DO mean harm – because the underlying agenda is to assert superiority over the targeted group, while hiding behind the guise of just having a bit of fun."

Translation...

Doing harm is specific to the aims of feminism, with the underlying agenda being to assert superiority over men:-)
Posted by Usual Suspect, Thursday, 4 December 2008 11:57:25 AM
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The abortion joke is hilarious, Veronika! Now wait for a pro-lifer’s thread to post it there, hehehe.

George Carlin (and thanks btw for these video links, Fractelle, I’m a big fan of him) says, “I like to piss off any group that takes itself a little bit too seriously.”
And people bought tickets to listen to him pissing off people.
We need this kind of humour.

Really, if people take themselves so seriously that they can’t even take in some jokes aimed at them or their group, and then they probably needed to hear these jokes ‘coz it might help them take things into perspective.
If one lets some jokes rule ones life and emotions, then it’s time to take a long, hard look at oneself.

I think it would make me feel worse if everybody thought my needs not to be offended were so special and important that they all deprived themselves of expression and tip-toed around me to tend to my needs. I’d much prefer to swallow a few jokes at my expense here and there. I may not like some of the jokes, but sheesh, I’d tell myself to get over it. It’s hardly a drama.

People read too much into a little joke and immediately think they’re put-downs.

SJF, “you have to also value the right of people to EXPRESS their distaste for certain types of humour”
Absolutely, and I do. People should be able to express anything they like, but not demand others to NOT tell jokes.
And, of course, I am free to express my distaste for their distaste, and even joke about their distaste.

“It’s target-based humour that is boring and restrictive”
So are you saying that outlawing target-based humour would encourage free speech more than including the use of target-based humour?
How?
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 4 December 2008 1:55:02 PM
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The sensitive, kind and whimsical Michael Leunig, who was the white haired boy of social liberationists for decades and especially during his days with the Nation Review, was savaged by the women's movement and made into a misogynist pariah over his poignant cartoon about day care, "Thoughts Of A Baby Lying In A Child Care Centre".

What about Mem Fox, would she have been less attacked as an ideological traitor by feminists if she had made a joke out of babies being put into child care at six weeks?

Feminists, it seems, only think jokes are funny when they are ideologically correct and preferably, tip buckets of manure over men and boys.

Feminists are interested in anti-male joke telling because they think it allows them a broader canvas to further their scurrilous stereotyping and blaming of men. As they figure it, jokes do not require facts (most convenient!) and if challenged the defence is (of course) it is only a joke. They are right to try a new approach because their rhetoric and bullying ways have worn very thin with the public over the years.

However, if as some here put it, feminist anti-male jokes are a celebration of our freedom of speech and are probably medicinal for the victims, why limit the jokes to men? What about some racist or cripple jokes? There is a whole field of opportunity out there for feminist 'anti-whoever' joke tellers. There are always Aboriginal men who could cop a bagging, which could kill two birds with one stone. Go get 'em, grrls.

Speaking for myself and the greater rump of the community, we will be trying to make the lot of our fellow man and woman a little better today and tomorrow, because that is where we find enjoyment and meaning in life.

No wonder young women run screaming from feminists!
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 6 December 2008 8:51:25 PM
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Cornflower, I'm not sure who you are addressing, but as one of those arguing for freedom of expression, you're incorrect in assuming that people can either tell jokes or try to make the world a better place. People frequently do both, and being very good at the former can transform into the latter. Eddie Izzard makes my world a better place. So does Ricky Gervais. So does Sarah Silverman. And etc.

The purpose of humour is not to attack but to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH. Not all people, but some people. I don't think anything should be off limits, but it becomes pretty obvious when someone is motivated by anger or hatred rather than humour. It may offend, it may not. We can heckle, make fun of it, drown it out, walk away from it. My point is simply that no one should have the right to prohibit its existence.

I'd also add the "feminist humour" doesn't appear to be the problem. (Can anyone give us an example of "feminist humour" other than Gloria Steinam's period routine from the 60s?) The men-bagging stuff this article is about is the kind of lame, cliched, women's mag stuff.
Posted by Veronika, Sunday, 7 December 2008 10:12:23 AM
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Veronika,

Yep, I agree with you on this one.

The love of my life was once a black guy and the two of us would trade racist jokes together and giggle and laugh like kids. My younger son, on the other hand, knows a guy who is a dyed in the wool racist and tells (probably the same) racist jokes which make my skin crawl.

There is, as you say, nothing new about these Women's Weekly type gender jokes. As a kid, I remember how, at my parents parties, someone would float a woman-joke and someone else would put forward a man-joke: and while neither of my parents ever found them particularly funny neither did they make any connection of them to actual gender wars.

If you ever come across any books of Medieval or Early Modern humour (yes, there really are some around)have a look inside. Riddles and jokes directed at both sexes have been around a lot longer than the Feminist movement.
Posted by Romany, Sunday, 7 December 2008 12:06:29 PM
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Veronika

As you imply, your aim is to ram home feminist ideology and misogyny. For that purpose you seem to think that anything is excusable, you can say what you like and if the audience doesn't like it they can 'harden up'.

With respect, your 'joke' about men being women beaters is an affront to the huge majority of men who value women (and men) and are exemplary husbands, fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles and sons. Let us be plain about this, your life values and attitudes that make that insulting, wrong assessment of men funny for you. You weakly justify the vilification of men as 'satire'. Balderdash, you are just being offensive in trying to ram home your anti-male stereotypes.

It doesn't help that feminists operate a 'closed shop' and are not amenable to alternate views. However, the opportunity remains for feminists to show (on OLO at least) just how funny their stereotyping is when applied to other groups such as Aboriginals and the disabled. Post these 'funny' jokes.

I have great sympathy for the many millions of men who in the main have not reacted to feminist insults. Their tolerance and forbearance in the face of unfair and often gross feminist sledging over the years go much of the way towards refuting the fundamental feminist assumptions and criticisms leveled at them.

As demonstrated by the Leunig example, feminists can dish it out but they cannot take it in return. So much for their sense of humour.

Antiseptic was right to say, "The problem, as I see it, is that jokes about the inadequacies of men as perceived by women are entirely unactionable by the sex-discrimination commissioner, yet the converse, jokes about the perceived inadequacies of women by men, are punishable quite harshly." Feminists know that and they would not have it any other way.

All this author has said is "perhaps men could do with a little less bagging", having said earlier "To be fair, the typecasting is often applied to both genders". You would have to be very rigid in your feminist ideology to choke on that.
Posted by Cornflower, Sunday, 7 December 2008 1:25:34 PM
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<<As you imply, your aim is to ram home feminist ideology and misogyny.>>

Huh? I've no idea what you're talking about in most of your post. But I think I can safely say that you've misunderstood my "life values".

I do agree with you about the Michael Leunig thing though. It was appalling what he went through. That's what I was trying to say earlier about some feminists lacking a sense of humour
Posted by Veronika, Sunday, 7 December 2008 3:28:17 PM
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