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The Forum > Article Comments > Stirring the possum - eat to save the planet > Comments

Stirring the possum - eat to save the planet : Comments

By Geoff Russell, published 13/11/2008

Apart from being an inefficient and polluting food source, livestock is the largest driver of deforestation and biodiversity loss.

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Yabby:

Yes, there is a huge difference between
various types of extensive livestock systems and
factory farms. But globally, 45% of all meat comes from
factory farms, 8% from pure rainfed extensive grazing
with the rest split between rainfed and irrigated
mixed systems (where crops are grown on farm for
feeding). For details see:

http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/10/09/the-global-food-system-and-climate-change-part-i/

The 2006 UN Report "Livestock's Long Shadow"
was written by pro-meat authors, and their
judgement was that environmental concerns will require
that most future expansion of meat production be in
factory farms. Their nutritional ignorance and lack
of concern for pain and suffering didn't really give
room for other conclusions.

As for ungrazed grasslands, yes, just
like unlogged forests, they will occasionally burn,
but the CO2 is irrelevant. The grass regrows
and absorbs the same amount of carbon from CO2. The
methane from such fires is, correctly, counted by
our Greenhouse Offce, but not the CO2. The same is true
for forest fires. Why is the methane counted? Because
methane traps heat far more effectively than
CO2. Imagine diving into a swimming pool, the water
provides little resistance. Now freeze the water. The
resistance to your diving changes (ouch!) despite
the number of molecules being unchanged. Likewise a
million molecules of CO2 traps a certain amount of
heat, but transform some of those to methane (CH4)
and you trap far more heat until the methane breaks
down. What is critical is the ratio of CO2 to CH4.

http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/09/10/nitrogen-climate-change-and-diet/

DreamOn:

Yes indeed. In developing countries, low life
expectancy is more frequently because of the impacts
of poor medical systems and bad water
engineering and less commonly from nutritional
and lifestyle problems.

HoHum:

Pollan thinks organic farming can feed the planet. I
reckon that's almost surely false, for a heap of
reasons. Not the least being that the population
has lost both the skills and the will to grow food.
Raw diets can be fine nutritionally but you
can't feed the planet on raw food unless you can find
a way to eat raw wheat, rice and/or potatoes.
Posted by Geoff Russell, Friday, 14 November 2008 6:28:54 PM
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Perhaps, maybe we will all have to relearn how to grow our own food again because the current system is unsustainable.

This website provides links to people and groups who are willing and able to teacxh people how to do it.

http://www.seedsofchange.com/cutting_edge/default.asp

Howard Shapiro was here in OZ a few years back. He stated that using organic methods, he could teach anyone, anywhere.

Plus this organization has been promoting the necessary ideal/practice of a local economy for all of its existence.

http://www.orionmagazine.org

A few years back, in response to Sept 11, they published an essay by the ever wise Wendell Berry titled the Idea of a Local Economy. An excellent statement re the practical Wisdom of localism and the absurdities of the current system too.

By the way the author of the last reference in my previous post is also a strong advocate of localised food self-sufficiency. Again as an applied exercise in Social Wisdom.
Posted by Ho Hum, Friday, 14 November 2008 8:42:48 PM
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Ok Geoff, according to the article that you linked, you are a member
of animal liberation. That explains alot :)

I have many points that I could raise, but given the word limit,
I will just raise a few.

Firstly society is peeing in the breeze about all this, whilst
they don't address the problem of adding 80 million humans a year
to the planet's population. IMHO family planning should be a right
for all women. Whilst its not being addressed, other species will
have less and less land and humanity will take more and more.
Ship more boatloads of grain to sub Saharan Africa for instance,
your net result will be even more babies, due to increased fertility.

Forests are not being bulldozed because of cattle or soyabeans, but
because Govts allow it to happen. The palm oil from a plantation
could well land up in the tank of a diesel driving vegan like
yourself! So don't blame meat, blame corrupt Govts for the problem.

Next point, much of Australia was actually cleared for wool production,
long before nylon was
invented. Australia rode on the
sheep's back remember, not on the back of cattle.

I would dispute the 8% figure. In much of the third world, people
graze livestock, they eat what people can't eat, all basically
an extra, for they are not cropping those soils. Most of Australia's
sheep and cattle, once again come from grazing country. The fact
that they are fed some grain in times of drought and stress, does
not mean that the system is not basically a pasture based system.

Much of Australian agriculture involves rotating livestock and crops
in a clover ley system, which is far more sustainable then
continual cropping.

To be honest, it seems to me that you'd like to use the CO2 story
to justify your animal liberation philosophy. Ok, fair enough,
as long as we both understand where you are coming from.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 14 November 2008 9:03:16 PM
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A very interesting article which -as a piscatarian- I am largely sympathetic to.
However...
"But hydroponics? Buying bags of chemicals that come free with
any half decent soil doesn't look like a winner to me, but under
some circumstances it may well make sense. Meat grown in labs
will probably happen some time soon."
The modern (dastardly) dairy farmer regards his land as a vessel.
It is a comparatively simple excercise in chemistry for the farmer to know exactly which chemicals (in the form of marketable product) are being exported from his land. The local produce store can make the analysis, and recommend the appropriate mixture of replacement chemicals.
In other words, the farmer buys in one set of chemicals, processes it (through the guts of his/her livestock) and sells it off for -hopefully- a profit.
Clearly, the contents of the vessel must be maintained at adequate levels, or land degradation and consequent drop in productivity must result.
The need to maintain -if not improve- soil quality and productivity is so blindingly obvious, one wonders how soil degradation can possibly occur.
The obvious flaw in this formula is the all important 'market'.
Farmers have long been price takers, rather than makers. The major food chains insist on cheap product (to improve their profit margins) which often means the farmer cannot afford to 'top up' his vessel.
This is very much like getting into debt. It is very hard to get out, and very easy to go deeper and deeper, until the farmer and his farm become unviable.
That was a very long winded way of saying: "I think there is a future for Hydroponics".
Posted by Grim, Friday, 14 November 2008 9:09:40 PM
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http://www.prisonplanet.com/global-warning-we-are-actually-heading-towards-a-new-ice-age-claim-scientists.html#comment-84367
[this global warning scam is the symptom of what is really going on[the pole shift;2012 dec;remember?]

put it together
the sun has its cycle[11 years]of sunspot activity[and non-activity]
that puts in heat and light[life]into our little earth[amoung other things]
but the point is this

sunspots are magnetic lines-of-force distorting[prior to the POLE shift]
on a water planet,we dont have'sun spots'[we get weather anomilies]

get it [our cyclones are the sun spot equivelent of OUR lines of force
interacting
prior to OUR pole shift,

so what does this EARTH pole shift look like
imagine an earth sunami[a slow moving wave]

[releasing other bigger waves,releasing a lot of dust]
think of it as if the earth is ringing vibrating

or as the australian alfa/beta[AB-origonals[the lost tribe]says in their song
it looks like a fish swimming[or rocks walking]through the earth

EAR-th let those who have ears hear

and prepare[this poleshift creates a lot of dust[blocking out the sun
[and its light ;sustaining life]
as well as its heat[cold dark noisy,hell]

oops that triggered a flash back
[as the one in the pit has his 1000 years annual re-lease
[this is satans/realm after all]

jesus was offered these realm's but wisely refused]
what better than people know the satan clause
is come in xmass seasoning?

also solar power dont work in the dark
and wind power cant do what prepared[2012 certified]coal power stations could[ie get us through the 18 mths of blackout]even if the coal ran out we canm burn wood[if needed to keep the power on]

with coal power[or magnetic drtiven generation]
we can convert office space into hydro food production
[is office lighting suitable to sustain life?

thing is we have 4 years[maybe]
till the expected'big one'

but one third survive aparently
[lest these days be cut short]
so make sure you got a good read
and do your research

[make sure you still have access to the web food water.light.life]
knowing we are spirits having an incarnate[sewn into skins]life experience]

have you your 7 years of food?
thats good
but are you prepared for the[maybe]oncomming dark times ahead?
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 15 November 2008 10:31:36 AM
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Yabby:

Yes, my affiliation with Animal Liberation (which is
also in my OLO bio notes) does explain a few things,
in particular my respect for data and evidence ---
Peter Singer is a Professor of Philosophy and my
first degree was also in Philosophy. The second
was mathematics, also a discipline with a high respect
for data.

Thus, you are entitled to think that the figure of
8% for the global quantity of meat produced by pure
grazing is wrong, but until you have alternative data,
you will need to live with it. The Livestock's Long
Shadow authors didn't just pluck it out of the air,
they went to a great deal of trouble to calculate
it. My judgement would be that their figure of 45%
of global meat from factory farms is rock solid --
that's easy to calculate. The other numbers will be
a little softer.

As for land clearing, sure wool was the major culprit
early in our history but for the last couple of
decades the major culprit has been cattle. There is
a good chart of land clearing data between 1973 and
2004 here (based on satellite data):

http://www.environment.gov.au/soe/2006/publications/drs/indicator/30/index.html

Given that sheep numbers began their long decline
around 1991, most of the post 1991 clearing is cattle. The
AGO estimated 85% of clearing in the 1990s was due
to cattle:

http://www.climatechange.gov.au/inventory/enduse/index.html

Again, if you want to dispute this, you need to
find a flaw in the data collection, or the analytic
method, not just tell a story of how you think
things are.

Lastly, I don't think its accurate to say that
Australia's cattle are just "fed some grain times
of drought and stress". According to MLA (not the
most trusted source of data - but the figure sounds
credible given ABARE figures on grain usage),
grain fed beef now accounts for 1/3 of Australia's
beef production.

http://www.australian-beef.com/trade/pdfs/MLA_GrainBeef.pdf

Grim: Sure there will be hydroponics, the question is "how much".
Posted by Geoff Russell, Saturday, 15 November 2008 10:32:06 AM
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