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The Forum > Article Comments > Letter-writing professor reluctantly hounded by heaven > Comments

Letter-writing professor reluctantly hounded by heaven : Comments

By Greg Clarke, published 14/10/2008

C.S. Lewis' letters reveal a bruised and open heart that was thoroughly and painfully explored by the God he came, reluctantly, to believe in.

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Thanks. Your article reminded me of the pleasure I got from (accidentally) reading "The Screwtape Letters" all of 40 years ago. What insights Lewis provided in this classic satire on Christianity, not to mention sins like greed and selfishness (Screwtape, Toadpipe, Wormwood - all wonderful characters).

Recommended reading if you can find a copy. This slim book seems suited to our times once again.
Posted by Spikey, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 11:19:46 AM
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I find trying to read the "apologetics" of C S Lewis a painfully boring experience. Although I do like The Screwtape Letters.

And besides which none of his presumptions about the "truth" of christianism are true--it is all conjecture and fabrication.
What could the phrases " the resurrection of jesus" and "jesus died for our sins" possibly point to that is any sense real in 2008?

Did anybody REALLY witness any of the things "described" in the Bible?
None of the scriptures were written by people who actually met or spoke to Jesus of Galilee.

Lewis is also highly over-rated. He wrote at a time when there was still not much wide-spread knowledge of the other "great" religions and their Sacred Texts (although there was a growing body of scholarly and academic research into these other traditions---even scholarly journals). Especially compared to now when the entire Great Tradition of humankind is freely available to everyone.

He also lived in the smug insular "world" of an English "university" which was still very much steeped in the bogus presumptions about the "superiority" of Western culture altogether. And which had also thoroughly embedded or entangled in the secular/materialist paradigm for at least 150 years---Nietzsche's "god is dead" statement.

Most if not all of his current admirers, are advocates of dim-witted exoteric "religious" provincialism. And also the notion that christianism is the one "true faith", with the corollary being that all other faith systems are inherently false or exercises in delusion, and hence need to be converted to the one "true" way.

These two references give an inkling of the inherent motive of the heart to find something more than the usual consolations offered by the usual standard meat-body, or humpty dumpty philosophy and "theology".

All of which is written by "sinners" or those, who by their very self-confession, admit that they are dissociated from the Divine Radiance and are hence full of doubt.

To be a "sinner" (hopeful or otherwise) is to infinintely godless, despite and contrary to any collection of hopeful words, however cleverly written.

http://dabase.org/tfrbkyml.htm

http://dabase.org/rgcbpobk.htm
Posted by Ho Hum, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 12:42:55 PM
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"none of the scriptures were written by people who actually met or spoke to Jesus of Galillee"...?

How about Matthew, John (Johns Gospel and The Revelation) and Peter (1 and 2 Peter) and James.

All saw him and met him and spoke to him.
Posted by Gibo, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 1:42:08 PM
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The four gospels were written accounts of verbal accounts of verbal accounts of verbal accounts of verbal accounts etc. No writings exist from the lifetime of Jesus.

"...the record of their correspondence is a precious guide to Lewis’s celebrated spiritual journey towards admitting that God is God..."

An admission of his belief, perhaps, not the fact. Why do religionists assume otherwise?
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 2:09:21 PM
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I will take it as TRUTH, everything that is said in The Word because I have The Holy Spirit (The Comforter) living within me and HE Confirms all scripture as TRUTH...i.e. "All scripture is inspired by God"...2 Timothy 3:16.

We have to become born again (John 3:3) to grasp that the Bible is the truth...though some will acccept it without being born again.

Take Moses.
He wasnt there at the Beginning but is Given the task of writing the account of the Beginning later on under The Power of The Holy Spirit.

God sits Him down... and The Holy Spirit Moves him to write the account.

God sits the writers down... and The Spirit Moves up them to write the accounts.
Thats mighty different than passed down stories.
Posted by Gibo, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 2:58:46 PM
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oh
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 3:08:35 PM
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Gibo

<<I will take it as TRUTH, everything that is said in The Word because I have The Holy Spirit (The Comforter) living within me and HE Confirms all scripture as TRUTH...i.e. "All scripture is inspired by God"...2 Timothy 3:16.>>

What the heck do you mean?

<<We have to become born again (John 3:3) to grasp that the Bible is the truth...though some will acccept it without being born again.>>

What the heck do you mean?

<<Take Moses. He wasnt there at the Beginning but is Given the task of writing the account of the Beginning later on under The Power of The Holy Spirit. God sits Him down... and The Holy Spirit Moves him to write the account.>>

What the heck do you mean?

God sits the writers down... and The Spirit Moves up them to write the accounts.
Thats mighty different than passed down stories.

What the heck do you mean?

Why do some rabid Christians write in Gibberish? What's wrong with plain English? Are there any Christians out there who can translate?

I thought I understood what CS Lewis said. Must have got lost in translation.
Posted by Spikey, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 7:10:34 PM
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"and yet Lewis admired him as much as anyone for his humility, his appreciation of a garden as much as a book, and his warm, accepting demeanour."

I recently read the following epitaph:

"You can never be more closer to God than when you are in a garden".

I kinda understood the sentiment. If there is an Eden in the vastness of space. I'd say it's planet Earth. For how much longer though......?
Posted by K£vin, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 7:50:03 PM
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Hi Spikey.
Yes... its true... the Holy Spirit is all over the earth...right now.

Every single person who willingly receives Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour (confesses their sin and invites Him into their lives) receives The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is Gods Eyes and Hands.

He's EVERYWHERE, looking for those who are open to gettng BORN AGAIN (John 3:3).

In Genesis chapter 1 verse 2 we see The Holy Spirit about to Create. This is The Beginning.

He has been here ever since, though not in all people until the New Testament age (Acts chapter 2) and then only those who are drawn to Jesus to be SAVED (from the final Judgment).

The Holy Spirit does it all... even getting men to write what He wants them to write.
He can plant thoughts into our minds to do good, and we think that the thoughts are ours.

A good description of The Holy Spirit can be found at
http://members.tripod.com/~robertwells/

He's watching both of us now.
Posted by Gibo, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 3:21:48 PM
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Hey Gibo

If God is everywhere, why does he let some Ministers of his religion rape small children?

If "He's watching both of us now", shouldn't he have been watching the rapists doing their evil work?
Posted by Spikey, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 5:36:13 PM
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Theres a huge spirit war going on Spikey. Not everything gets dealt with at the time or even before it happens.
Check out Lucifer at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Its vast in its size is the conflict and the stakes must be huge for God to Send His Son Jesus to die on the Cross so that we could receive His Sacrifice and live.
What isnt dealt with now...will be later.
Posted by Gibo, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 6:18:45 PM
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Spikey,

Even one of Jesus Christ's own disciples betrayed him. Many Christians will tell you that the people who have hurt them most were other Christians.

While I was never sexually abused as a child, when I was a young man I had one of these so-called ministers questioning me on my masturbation habits and what I was thinking about at the time. He was doing this to all the young men and boys in the church. I now wonder what this so-called man of God was up to.

The fact is that this evil is not the work of God, and God should not be blamed for what Man is responsible for. It hasn't stopped me from wanting to serve God.

I don't know if your questions about God are an excuse not to believe or if you are really interested in knowing about God. If it is the latter, you need to read the Bible, most answers are found there.
Posted by Steel Mann, Thursday, 16 October 2008 7:41:09 AM
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Steel Mann

http://ldolphin.org/Mast.shtml
Posted by Gibo, Thursday, 16 October 2008 4:05:18 PM
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Gibo,

This pastor was questioning young boys and men about what they were thinking, claiming to try and help them. He was trying to find out who might have been gay in the church, and claimed he was trying to help them. I wondered though if he had some other motive. As I denied having any homosexual tendency (and in those days I was very anti-gay)he wasn't able to get very far with me.

What I am saying Gibo, is that I do not blame God for what this pastor did.
Posted by Steel Mann, Friday, 17 October 2008 7:30:59 AM
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Steel Mann

Your advice: "I don't know if your questions about God are an excuse not to believe or if you are really interested in knowing about God. If it is the latter, you need to read the Bible, most answers are found there."

Thanks, but no thanks. I was made to read the Bible as a child and teenager and was compelled to attend Church every Sunday in company with our tormenters. What did I learn?

"Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers...Numbness!"
We heard the priest declaim: Jesus said, "Suffer the children..." and his devout and self-righteous followers certainly made sure we did.

Some of our 'carers' must have gone to church on Sunday to pray to God for strength to abuse us all the harder on Monday. They obviously loved the advice they received: "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

If others went to seek God's forgiveness for sexually abusing vulnerable children, He wasn't listening.

It's enlightening to find that yet another 'Christian' sect which teaches harsh discipline has been embroiled in sexual abuse scandals (and that's only the ones that have been discovered).

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-133/2008/03/23/1206206927458.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

I'm afraid the one strong lesson we learned throughout childhood was that you shouldn't trust those who blabbered on about seeking salvation in the next life when we wanted safety and security in the here-and-now.
Posted by Spikey, Friday, 17 October 2008 10:00:52 AM
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Spikey,

Not all Christians are the same (Thank God) and not all Churches are the same. I've suffered spiritual/ mental abuse myself from the hands of manipulative people in the Church but it hasn't changed my attitude to God.

These days I'm strong enough to say no thank you to those Christians who seek to control my life. True Christianity is about freedom, not domination, control and manipulation. Unfortunately these types of people are what the church is best known for producing, however they ae the minority.
Posted by Steel Mann, Friday, 17 October 2008 11:12:20 AM
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Spikey
Your Reference to the Old Testament reminds me of the reasons name my bulls after the books of OT. The first reason was that Genesis was a great name for a bull at the beginning of my enterprise and it is full of 'begatting' which is what one needs from a good bull, and the second was that as time passes the OT increasingly becomes a load of old bulls.
Posted by Candide, Friday, 17 October 2008 12:43:03 PM
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Steel Mann

I agree not all Christians are the same, but with all due respect you all read the same religious text. Hence we have the Polycarps, Gibos et al.

Like Spikey, I had to attend Sunday school and religious education at school (which was not education about religions but proselytising and indoctrination into Christianity).

Therefore, being told to go and read the bible sounds both patronising and condescending. We know what is in it - enough contradictions to cause much hatred and not a little war.

Like Spikey, I am responsible for the bad and the good that I do. I have to live with my conscience - not answer to an imaginary patriarch in the sky.
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 17 October 2008 12:47:51 PM
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"Christianity is about freedom, not domination, control and manipulation."

I've never heard that before. From my experience it's always been about getting me to believe and behave as someone else wants me to, under threat of damnation or something. You seem enlightened Steel Mann, perhaps it's other Christians that could do with some help.

"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion -— several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven."

~ Mark Twain
Posted by bennie, Friday, 17 October 2008 1:06:17 PM
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Never found a contradiction Fractelle.

Everything is in its right place...in its right season.

I read it and listened to it for 23 years, and more, and never found an error.
You must have been listening to satans old lie that stops you from getting close to it?

I mentioned Lucifer somewhere here.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 17 October 2008 2:00:59 PM
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In its right season? Pull the other one Gibo. For most people the bible means whatever they want it to mean. The rest are stone-throwing creationists.
Posted by bennie, Friday, 17 October 2008 2:46:38 PM
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For my part I firstly can’t see why everyone talks about “THE” bible, as though there is only one such thing ... each sect seems to make up its own compilation and version of available writings. There are, for instance, the Massoretic or Septuagint versions, and then the Catholic, the Orthodox, the Protestant, within which are Luther’s denunciations of various books, and the Jehovah’s Witness and the Mormon versions ... it seems there are many bibles, each sect decides its own by means of a very human manipulation.
For God sitting Moses down and then dictating to him, Gibo, you haven’t told us what language he dictated in and what language Moses wrote in, as the Hebrew script hadn’t been invented at that time, and Moses was educated in Egypt in the hieratic script. And why would he have given two versions of Creation, one calling God “El”, and the other “JHWH”? And where did your names for the authors of the Gospels come from, as none have the authors’ authorizations, and are only given by tradition. Do you give tradition any authority?
And just what did these authors write? ... as whilst we have pieces of the writings in existence, none are the originals and none of these copies of copies are exactly the same, and compilers give a variety of warnings about which version is preferred. We might be willing to say an original book or letter was inspired by God, but we certainly can’t make that claim of any copy, and so the copies that we have compiled into our various ‘bibles’ can have no claim to God’s inspiration whatever.
And then the claim “that all scripture is inspired by God ..” has problems, as the Greek word translated as “scripture” is “graphae” which means “literature”, and doesn’t have the religious connotation we give the word “scripture”. Close by in this same letter is the reference to “holy literature” and this is more what we give the meaning to ‘scripture’.
Posted by AveAtqueVale, Friday, 17 October 2008 4:38:38 PM
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AveAtqueVale

A most welcome post, which I am sure Gibo will find a challenge:

You can lead a religious fundamentalist to the pool of knowledge but you can't make him think.
Posted by Fractelle, Saturday, 18 October 2008 6:03:19 AM
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No way am I going with you guys:)

Youre full of argument and fallen mans thoughts...and so often on this site it comes out as nothing at all of meaning.

The Holy Bible is the Word of God... and its all INTERPRETED with The Holy Spirit Who lives inside the born again christian.

The Holy Spirit confirms The Word as TRUTH.

Without The Holy Spirit in you, you simply dont know The Word or its journey through all of history or the huge power that it has to save lost souls and to heal people.

You arent ever going to know the TRUTH of The Word until you are born again (John 3:3)...and that means you have to confess your personal sin to God and ask Jesus into your lives as Lord and Saviour (the Saviour Who saves you from the Final Judgment. "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God...Romans 3:23).

Until you are born again any talk against the Holy Bible is the vacant, carnel discussions of fallen men amd women who criticise everything they doesnt like or understand.

Invite Jesus Christ into your lives ...and then read the Word... and then you can talk about The Word.
Posted by Gibo, Saturday, 18 October 2008 7:03:48 AM
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But Gibo, the spirit that you advocate, seems to require a tightly closed mind so all problems with ‘the’(sic) bible will hopefully vanish, and you’ll have no trouble with God dictating to Moses that the Decalogue was given at both Sinai and Horeb, and dictated Moses’ own death in the past tense, and one genealogy being dictated to one evangelist and a different one to another evangelist. And whereas we are told that Jesus is the ‘Logos’, translated as the ‘Word of God’, there is no mention that ‘the bible is the Word of God’, thus an unbiblical concept, where presumably you’re taking the ‘word’ to be the ‘written word’. Jesus wrote nothing, and made no mention that his message would be all written down as a kind of text book. There is only that reference from Paul that ‘all inspired literature is useful for teaching ...’ by which presumably he meant the Septuagint and other current literature circulating around the communities. But I also see under this umbrella the works of such as Shakespeare, C.S.Lewis ... to even our own Henry Lawson, Tim Winton, or any who can give us insights into our human condition, and lead us to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with God. Furthermore that spirit telling you interpretation is just what you concoct the meaning to be, that the message is quite subjective, seems quite dangerous, and that anyone, wise or kooky, can start another sect. Jesus regretted that those against him, like wolves, scattered his flock, which made scatterers his enemies, and so subjective interpretation of his message, that has produced the plethora of sects tearing the Christian fabric into so many ragged strands, has destroyed the unity he prayed for. The spirit that you talk about, seems to be that of the scatterers, producing mischief, sometimes eventually like Jonestown. I doubt this is the Holy Spirit, whose truth is to free us from closing our minds and open us up to appreciate the working of this spirit throughout history with weak and all to human instruments.
Posted by AveAtqueVale, Sunday, 19 October 2008 12:17:31 PM
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That was a maze of thought AveAtqueVale.
Where did that come from.

Like most born again christians Im more than happy to KEEP IT SIMPLE and trust that "All scripture is inspired by God"...2 Timothy 3:16... and this is how it got Written.

After all... its all about a simple faith and trust in God through Jesus Christ, not great "egghead" thinking, that the Word works.
A good christian friend warns me to "keep it simple stupid".
And he's right!

I usually find that those who like to either attack the Bible, or pick it to pieces, looking for things that arent there, have a fear problem.

The Word frightens them and threatens their theories about life etc...i.e. "Im a good person...God wouldnt send me to hell"

You see...if we accept the Bible, we have to accept that what it says about sin and Judgment, is true.
Because most wont admit they sin against God, and are therefore sinners, they let the fallen nature turn the truth of Gods Word around to justify their sin, and they reject what the Word says to protect themselves from such thoughts as "a Judgment" and give themselves comfort in the now... rather than accept that they are sinners in Gods Sight and turn to what Jesus Did on the cross and recieve that work in their lives by making Him Lord and Saviour.

They say Voltaire spent much of his time attacking the Holy Bible and christians and then on his death bed was found screaming that he could feel the heat of the flames...then he died.
Fear had made him what he was.
He would have been wiser to accept that sin was in him, and received
Jesus as His Lord and Saviour, and had Jesus overcome his "falleness".
We are not to let personal fear stop us from going to Jesus to get set free.

http://spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm
Posted by Gibo, Sunday, 19 October 2008 3:03:49 PM
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Greg C,

Indeed, Volume 3 (up to p.306 at least) is a delight to read.

The letters are inspirational on a number of levels – not least to encourage us to write with humility and honesty in our every communication, but also to get back to the joy of real letter-writing (forget Facebook!).

It was wonderfully refreshing, to see Lewis sum up the Richard Dawkinses, Christopher Hitchenses and Sam Harrises of the time:

An example From the letter to Bernard Acworth (p. 138):

“I have read nearly the whole of Evolution* and am glad you sent it. I must confess it has shaken me: not in my belief in evolution, which was of the vaguest and most intermittent kind, but in my belief that the question was wholly unimportant. …. What inclines me now to think that you may be right in regarding it as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives, is not so much your arguments against it as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders.”

(*Bernard Acworth, “This Progress: The Tragedy of Evolution”)

(There is a fair bit of evidence here on OLO that not much has changed).

I am quite unabashed to acknowledge that I enjoyed this (though we may never know if poor Acworth felt the sting in Lewis’ dismissal of his arguments!) just as much as “A ham is not a ‘small thing’, but a glorious creature.” - from the very next page.

And to Mrs Frank L. Jones question - “Why did God make most people stupid” on p.10:

"Have you any evidence that He did?
Some people are stupid through their own choice – laziness, and even fear of the truth – so have made themselves stupid. Others, through bad education etc., which is the fault of other humans, not of God."

A Lewis precursor to the “sound bite”? There are many in the Letters, and it is well to read them lest we fall into the mistaken assumption that anything penned by our contemporaries passes as original thought.
Posted by katieO, Sunday, 19 October 2008 8:22:33 PM
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The maze is an appropriate analogy for my searching Christianity, that amongst the many paths ending at a dead end, maybe there is one which is valid as a philosophy for my life. I take as axiomatic that there is a spiritual dimension to life and that God is a rational being, and so writers like C.S.Lewis are helpful. But the statement that ‘the bible is the word of God’ bears examination. Now it is not obviously self-evident, and the bible itself makes no such claim to internal validation, so the statement is just an hypothesis and requiring external validation. But definitions of the terms ‘bible’ and ‘word’ elude definitive meanings. Validation could appeal to an authority. However claiming ‘God’s dictation’ is contradicted by the many different styles of vastly differing standards of writing that defy a singular dictating source. And what is said to be God inspired has its own peculiarities as Obadiah is apparently dictated by God, but not Ben Sirac who’s remarkable wisdom is confined to the not-inspired basket. Neither is that prayer in the Book of Common Prayer called “ Benedicite” is categorized as not inspired yet seems to be one of the best prayers of all time. If subjective interpretation is put as validation to the above hypothesis, it simply makes a nonsense of any rational search for the truth. To tightly close the mind to discussion looks simply like sitting at a dead end of the maze with eyes tightly shut, imagining you’re secure in your simplicity. And this might even be a mischief. Jesus was harsh on those calling ‘Lord, Lord’ and telling Him their devotion, but He pointed out He didn’t know them and they weren’t with Him. So just blindly claiming simplicity of faith as justification may if fact be destructive, and instead of building up Christianity, may in fact be white-anting it, with consequent denunciation by Jesus. But enough of this; I’m partly to blame for hi-jacking the discussion off Lewis, so this is my definite ‘vale’, and getting back onto the essential Clive S.
Posted by AveAtqueVale, Monday, 20 October 2008 4:08:27 PM
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AveAtqueVale

Thank you for the advice contained in:

“So just blindly claiming simplicity of faith as justification may in fact be destructive, and ....may in fact be white-anting ...”

When you describe God’s existence, his character and the invisible – what is not seen, but a matter of faith for believers – as self-evident, then I can only conclude that you arrive at this conclusion not through your academic studies, or your faith position, but through your interpretation of the natural world as you’ve experienced it.

Truly, many come to Christ through the Word. But historically, many have responded to God’s creation (the world around us, the soul within us), with belief in (a) God. Other conversions, are more of the Paulian variety – dreams and visions…particularly where there is no access to the Word.

“Jack” offers up some useful advice here too, in his discussion on the “natural” and the “adopted” sons (daughters), I found that in Vol. 3 – and it is a theme elaborated elsewhere in his literature.

Perhaps it is easier to take the existence of God for granted, when you were born with a heart to know and respond to Him (as it appears you were). I was quite obstinate, refusing to acknowledge God’s glory as manifested in his creation, until the Gospel of Mark penetrated that flimsy pretence, so that finally, what was hidden, was revealed.

If you are willing to re-visit the Gospels (I understand your objections to authorship, the definition of scripture, the authority of the Word, however, an open mind is still a requirement for a scrupulous examiner) you may well find that your search ends there (any of the mainstream bible versions will do – KJ, NIV etc. – let's not get into a tangle about it), though in the end, it can only be “seen” with the eyes of the heart.

It's the "This Way is Out" sign from the maze - or you can do another few circuits for good measure. Either way, I wish you “God-speed” in finding the definitive answer to your sincere and thorough research.
Posted by katieO, Monday, 20 October 2008 6:26:15 PM
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"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God"...1 John 1.

So it is...we believe in The Word of God.

Im happy to go to The Lord as a child wherever possible.

Im one of the stupid ones who really, truly needs to keep Christianity simple.
Im surrounded by many others in the christians churches I attend.

Too much questioning and complexity and I can lose what Ive been Given.

Good talking to you AveAtqueVale:)
Posted by Gibo, Monday, 20 October 2008 6:36:58 PM
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There is none so blind as he who choses not to see . Faith is the substance of things hoped for . What is your hope . The Bible is his story { JESUS } from start to finish . It is about a loving father who wants the very best for his children { US } . Sadly most of us will ignore his offer of LIFE because of Pride . We are so full of ourseves we don't see Gods wonderful gift to mankind . The opertunity to call the KING of Kings and the LORD of Lords Abba Daddy an become joint heirs with Jesus in his Kingdom . Instead we chose to call ole hairylegs Father and give him all the honour and respect due to God alone . Sadly he is bound for the lake of fire and all who follow him will spend forever with him in torment . Not fair you say . Why didn't someone warn you . Jesus did BUt you choose to ignore him . Not my words but Jesus words . read his story again .
Posted by Richie 10, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 9:46:36 PM
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