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The Forum > Article Comments > When there is no separation of church and state > Comments

When there is no separation of church and state : Comments

By Max Wallace, published 25/9/2008

There is no law separating church and state in Australia. We are, after all, a British constitutional monarchy, not a republic.

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For me personally, speaking as a Christian... I would be a bit sad to lose the Lords prayer at the opening of Paliament.

It is a link with our history and also an appeal for divine guidance, in harmony with the pre-amble to our constitution.

"Our Father.. in heaven, holy is your name" with such a framework, should we not also be like Him?

"May your kingdom come" in the hearts of people. Not "and we will impose it by hook, crook or cluster bomb"

It is not a selfish prayer "Give us this day our daily bread"

It is not an aggressive prayer "Lead us not into temptation"

It is a request for forgiveness "Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us"

It is not about human glory "To you be the Glory, forever and ever"

But at the same time, I am aware of the danger of the State and Church being too close as history testifies.

The problem with complete separation between the Christian church and the State is that the State can then suddenly decide that Christians are "persona non grata" and unwelcome.

Hence..I think it will remain the case that Christians seek to have a say in the State.
Posted by Polycarp, Thursday, 25 September 2008 1:47:30 PM
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plerdsus, if you enjoyed seeing the queen's man firing whitlam, imagine your pleasure at seeing whitlam fired by the citizens, through a recall referendum, as they recently did in california.

a nation that does not enjoy the recognition of legitimate government by the vast majority of the people will be riven by riots, rebellion, and crime. there are two ways to get that recognition of legitimacy:

democracy, where there is no government, but only an administration carrying out the will of the electorate.

and monarchy, where god has selected the nation's master, and that master appoints ministers in his service. it is worth remembering that a 'public servant' is not a servant of the public, but rather a servant of the crown in dealing with the public. parliament is not master of the state, as kerr and whitlam demonstrated. but parliament made itself master of the monarch, a different thing. see a history of the british civil war, and discover that having tried simple oligarchy as was the rule of parliament, the (upper) middle class found that a government whose legitimacy rested on the army soon became ruled by a general. so they created a puppet monarch, now reflected in the puppet gg's we laugh at today. they are a fig-leaf over the rule of parliament that is very handy for people who fear or despise democracy.

but this does create a problem: if the monarch is not established by god, whence comes legitimacy? the brits understand this, and q e is head of the church that in turn assures britain that god wants her there. handy, eh?

the bumpkins who wrote the oz constitution did a cut and paste of political thought of the time. there is no logic in it. "a bit of this, a bit of that" (but no democracy, we're british, after all.) consequently, ozzies remain subjects, not just in law, but mentally. ask them to become citizens and they recoil in horror, if indeed they understand the distinction.
Posted by DEMOS, Thursday, 25 September 2008 2:36:18 PM
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As you can see in this thread and others religious moderates such as jamesf automatically use their 'moderate' voice to advocate for extreme religious policy (theocratic state) and side with their religious dominionists.
Posted by Steel, Thursday, 25 September 2008 2:40:22 PM
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Those who know no history are bound to repeat it or words to that effect. The British monarchy was established not by God but, in the first instance, by force after the Wars of the Roses and subsequently by decisions of Parliament, both after the Cromwellian republic and at the time of the 'Glorious Revolution' though, in the latter case, the English Parliament didn't have a lot of choice.

The Australian constitution didn't enact the separation of church and state for three reasons: most of the members of the convention were Christians; ensuring no church could be established as the Australian church guarded against the possibility, however remote, that the Papists might one day establish the Catholic Church; and the constitution was intended to provide for the workings of the Australian Federation, which was by no means universally desired. Freedom of religion reflected a fairly sophisticated understanding of the variety of religious beliefs in contemporary Australian society, a variety clearly indicated in the debates over the nature of government education systems during the 1870s and 1880s.
Posted by Senior Victorian, Thursday, 25 September 2008 4:07:19 PM
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"Can't we all just get along?" asks james

From http://atheistwiki.wikispaces.com/Outrage+scoreboard for just one week --

2008-09-15: Six children die in Afghanistan bombing.
2008-09-15: Twenty people die in Delhi bombing.
2008-09-15: Thirty Islamic militants killed in Pakistan.
2008-09-15: Australian four-year-old dies after mother refuses medical treatment on religious grounds.
2008-09-15: Twenty-one Indonesians die in Ramadan money stampede.
2008-09-17: Islamic creationist fraudster persuades Turkish courts to ban access to Dawkins website.
2008-09-19: 'Religious nutcase' art teacher makes US boy 'pray to Jesus' for wearing a heavy metal T-shirt.
2008-09-20: Sudanese Christian guerilla group kill one child, kidnap 50 others.

Obviously not.

Now, if we were all atheists...
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 25 September 2008 4:36:43 PM
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Secularism has proven such a diaster that only the hard line socialist are left in denial. Even Ms Gillard supports private schools though it must eat her up knowing her own dogmas have failed. The best punishment for the Secularist is to leave them to their own devices. We have seen the fruit of the State school systems which are on the brink of collapse. Even many hard line secularist refuse to send their kids there. We have Docs taking away kids for getting well deserved smacks and giving them to druggies. We have seen Indigenous in loving foster homes given back to communities where they are repeatedly raped.

The separation of church and state might be good in theory but the separation of secularism and state would be far better in practice. God help us if or when the remaining few Politicians with a few moral convictions are squeezed out of Parliament. Could you imagine the Greens in power. The abnormal ones will be the mums and dads who want to do the right thing by their kids. We already have many of our politicians parading a false morality under the guise of environmentalism when they have not even got the decency to be faithful to their wives or husbands. The more secular influence we get the more of this crap we can expect.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 25 September 2008 4:42:01 PM
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