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The Forum > Article Comments > Cost of living crisis revisited > Comments

Cost of living crisis revisited : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 27/8/2008

Services, infrastructure, wages and welfare: the many-faceted nature of Australia’s cost-of-living crisis.

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"BN, the establishment of capitalism in England for example saw the destruction of common property. It involved driving peasants off the land into the cities to become wage slaves. You can see the same process going on today, for example in China, or in times gone by in Stalinist Russia."

Ugh... the oversimplification of the 'estalishment' of capitalism is enough to make me want to lose my lunch. You're inferring that a switch was flicked and suddenly Capitalism appeared. It was nothing like that.

For starters, don't mistake 'common property' with individual ownership, and certainly don't mistake it with 'common labour'. Lots of people worked in these communial areas but that didn't mean that they owned any of it. Also, don't think that'wage slaves' were new 'slaves' - there was plenty of other slavery at the time. This was yet another silly statement of yours Passy.

Speaking of which, I note you didn't respond to my comments on LSL (being entrenched in law) or on banks... why is that?

"Why should legal ownership of business give you the right to determine what is invested, where, who works, who doesn't and so on."

Let me turn that around. Why does your legal ownership of your house give you the right to stop people walking in your front door? I think you'll find the answers are very similar.

"In one sense you prove my point that capitalism is profoundly undemocratic becuase..."

Exactly. You have no business stopping people walking through your front door! You should call a meeting of the local community (read: society) when people want to come in or not - let the community make that decision.

It's preposterous.

I've never said that capitalism is democratic. You can see that with your own ownership of your house. You (and perhaps your family) make the decision who walks in the front door - not society at large, and not democratically.

Methinks your being somewhat hypocritical if you own a house and you don't hold referendum on who should walk in the front door.
Posted by BN, Wednesday, 3 September 2008 5:44:02 PM
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Thanks Pericles and BN. I think when different world views clash we can be tempted to respond with name calling. It's time to move on.

Tristan, maybe we are revisiting groundhog day with our discussion about exploitation and superannuation.

Superannuation flows from the exploitative process, from the very nature of the capital/labour divide and the wage relationship which is disguised slavery in the guise of free exchange.

Since superannuation flows from the essence of capitalism it cannot be a tool for the overthrow of capitalism. And if present experience is any guide, so far in Australia it is not even a tool for the reform of the capitalist system.

I know that you will argue it can be, and I guess that might be so, e.g. if there were mass movements of workers demanding radical change for society. But even if superannuation can be used as a pro-worker tool, how does that overcome the very fact of exploitation and all that flows from that?
Posted by Passy, Wednesday, 3 September 2008 9:15:59 PM
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BTW Passy, I came across this recently and it is about the only way that I can think of you getting to the classless society that you covet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKHzFWkH0Po

'... everyone is finally equal... The strong wear weights, the beautiful wear masks and the intelligent wear earpieces that fire off loud noises to keep them from taking unfair advantage of their brains.'
Posted by BN, Thursday, 4 September 2008 7:35:28 AM
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Passy “Where does profit come from? The labour of workers. Capitalism is a system in which the value workers create is expropriated by bosses.”

The equipment, “machines” and “buildings” and “systems”, an employer buys and utilizes to improve the productivity of the “workers” needs to be seen as direct “contributors” (and in many cases competitors) to the total value “created by workers”

The payroll taxes, “expropriated” from the employer by government reduce the value of the workers contribution.

Of course, the “workers” are quarantined from the “risk” costs associated with any capitalist venture.

Passy you talk some garbage sometimes and that is the most simplistic rant of the discredited left that you have come up with for a long time.

BN “everyone is finally equal... The strong wear weights, the beautiful wear masks and the intelligent wear earpieces that fire off loud noises to keep them from taking unfair advantage of their brains.'”

Exactly

Socialism cannot ensure the masses equality with the excellent, except by hindering the excellent to the point we share the mediocrity which is the only promise socialism aspires to.

As dearest Margaret said

“Let our children grow tall, and some taller than others if they have it in them to do so.”

Its like this, we can employ the tall ones to change the light globes but in a socialist society no one is allowed to grow that tall, so everyone suffers and we all live as equals, in the dark.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 4 September 2008 9:24:52 AM
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"Where does profit come from? The labour of workers. Capitalism is a system in which the value workers create is expropriated by bosses."

The other thing that always comes to mind when I read things like this is whether the 'workers' should have to cough up when a business isn't profitable.

You don't hear the lefties decrying this, do you?
Posted by BN, Thursday, 4 September 2008 6:18:14 PM
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Dear Passy...

You're right that superannuation is not ideal... To begin with, it involves risk... Secondly, it reproduces inequality in retirement, and may in the future undermine public pensions...

Instead, I would prefer 'citizens investment funds': working within a social charter...And with pension funds supporting a public pension system with a fair means testing system...(less severe than currently)

And you're right - that such investments can invole exploitation - as understand in the Marxist sense. (extraction of surplus value)

But if there are many policies supporting a mixed democratic economy - then such an economy can develop to the point where there is no longer any coherent economic ruling class...

By this I mean a mixture of GBEs (Government Business Enterprises) citizens investment funds - supporting public pensions, services, infrastructure; co-operative and mutualist enterprise - supported with tax concessions and cheap credit...

And such measures can be complemented by progressive taxation - including inheritance taxes or wealth taxes - to break down class stratification...

Amongst this - so long as individuals have the liberty to invest as they wish - exploitation will not be fully neutralised... But nevertheless, the consequence could be a 'good society': and a genuinely democratic one also...
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Thursday, 4 September 2008 7:17:18 PM
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