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The Forum > Article Comments > Perspective on anti-terror laws > Comments

Perspective on anti-terror laws : Comments

By Gary Brown, published 8/11/2005

Gary Brown argues by using authoritarian means to defeat terrorists we are no better than they are.

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COMMENT - PART 2

Furthermore healthy discussion is a strength of democracy and the Federal Opposition, fronted by Big Kim is clearly unhealthy as an effective opposition.

The proposal on “incitement” is putting the frighteners on those who disagree with the Government and the Opposition has done bugger all to allay our fears.

Your stats on the death penalty are well researched. Seems the majority supports the death penalty. Now if these Muslim Australian youths who haven’t actually bombed anything, are classed as “terrorists” should they be under threat of hanging?

Some questions raised:

Should there be a special scale of penalties for “terrorists” who haven’t actually carried out a violent act?

Has their main act of terror been that they’ve been arrested and exposed as “terrorists”.?

A fair number of people feel panic just from hearing about the arrest. But other than intent what terrifying thing has happened?

Or are tougher anti-terror laws and penalties mainly useful due to their deterrent effect? I suggest this is the main aim and (if the laws need to be passed) the most compelling.

I agree “Minority opinion is healthy” and agree with your implication that statistics can be deceiving.

So I think we have similar goals just different assumptions.

Themistocles

- your diatribe against young Gary reduces the impact of your arguments. Somewhere buried is the possible usefulness of casting a wide intelligence net but the abiding picture is of "nipple-fed intellectuals...
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 3:19:16 PM
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Yes, Gary will have to agree that the urgent laws were not simply a beatup or "crying wolf". I think he'd be flattered at being described as young - his OLO bio & photo suggest he's on the wrong side of 50.

More substantially, if we decide it's OK to ignore the rights of innocents in order to apprehend the guilty, we enter a minefield. Should we start detaining Italians because some may be in the Mafia and might commit a crime? Or Asians because some seem to be involved in drug smuggling? Or politicians because some are liars and cheats? The reason rights must be upheld for all is because if they aren't, then it becomes easy to deny them to anyone we don't like, and soon we end up with none at all. That, incidentally, was the communist mistake too. I never had any time for "comms" precisely because they invariably ran authoritarian regimes.
Posted by Mhoram, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 7:53:07 PM
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I say while we are at war with terorists I see these laws agreed by both sides of politics and State Governments as essential to the national security of our way of life. Instead of attacking the laws and the Government, start identifying the real enemy of our free and democratic society. These terrorist have learned how to use our freedoms to destroy us and out society.

The Age, November 9, 2005

"Police reportedly believe chemicals seized in yesterday's counter-terrorism raids in Sydney are the same as those used in July's London bombings. Clear liquid chemicals seized from a Lakemba home during the raids are believed to be ingredients of triacetone tiperoxide (TATP), a powerful explosive used in the London terror attacks, The Australian newspaper today reports. AFP officers were tipped off in July by a Sydney chemical supplier that members of a suspected terrorist cell were trying to acquire the ingredients of the highly volatile crystal explosive. The substance is so powerful only a few hundred grams are needed. In in its finished form TATP is undetectable by bomb sniffer dogs and other conventional detection equipment."

At: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/police-believe-raid-chemicals-same-as-london-bombings/2005/11/09/1131407660723.htm
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 8:03:53 PM
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re: Anti-smeitism

I seem to have raised some examplars of this particular problem with my latest post on this topic.

BOAZ - Yes that is true, but the Jews happiness making money is somewhat stereotypical, and arises from the fact that the only occupations allowed, beyond the Pale(s) included money lending.

However, despite the fact that the jews of Europe dod not in fact kill inncocents, the famous 'Blood Libel' suggested that they did (for example St. Simon of Trent), demonising the Jewish populations (invariably during times of economic or social unrest), providing a popular scapegoat for the citizens, generally resulting in pogroms (A lot of which was inspired by the churches - nb. the 'mea culpa' by the Vatican).

Thor - Anti-semetism is a disease, and like all diseases it mutates. I agree that for several hundred years, it has overwhelmingly applied to Jews, however now, like during the crusades and wars in spain, it is expanding beyond the narrow definition. Like all diseases it is best recognised by its symptoms;

- Demonisation of a community (for dress / language / etc.)
- A variation upon the 'Blood Libel' theme
- Special laws, or restrictions applying only to them
- Poor relationships between effected community and the wider community & government.
- Mistrust

I suggest that the current vilification and demonisation of the various moslem comunities in Australia, puroprtedly on the basis of the actions of moslems overseas, may in fact be based in neo-classical anti-semetism. I mean, lets face it, they do not act / dress / talk / or worship the same as the rest of Australia - do they?

I personally wonder how long it will take, before gangs start going around cutting the beards of moslem men, or forcibly removing the hajib from their women. Without recourse to semantics, this is anti-semetic behaviour, and should be identified as such.

We are on a very dangerous path.
Posted by Aaron, Thursday, 10 November 2005 5:33:39 AM
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Aaron, I agree with a lot of your points but my watching of this matter has given some different opinions.

The gangs which are going around now don't hurting those who don't dress, talk, worship like them appear to be muslim rather than targetting muslims - I don't live in sydney so have no first hand experience of this but have seen no serious rebuttal of the statements by people who claim to have knowledge of this.

Not much doubt about what is happening oversea's. Time and trials will tell if local muslims have been planning the same (arrests don't equal guilt).

Please don't make the mistake of being one sided on this. I have the impression that most of my fellow aussies are fairly accepting of those who make different choices. What we don't generally accept is those who insist on double standards. Those who insist on the right to dress differently should also respect the right of others to do so etc.

Speak out against that small minority of muslims who are doing the wrong thing and your concerns about that small minority of the rest of the community who may do the wrong thing will bear more weight. Any comment on those thugs beating the crap out of the TV camera man the other day?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 10 November 2005 8:24:25 AM
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I think that Aaron's point about anti-Semitism is an interesing one. The current moral panic about Muslims and Arabs shares many structural features with anti-Jewish sentiments as they have been expressed historically. As some of the extremist comments here indicate, we may indeed be on a dangerously slippery slope:

That certain people in this forum have no compunction in deploying stereotypes about Jews (not to mention Muslims), or making jokes about using the new draconian laws against Bob Brown in the same post, is just a bit worrisome, I reckon. The points that Pericles has made with respect to parallels with Mosely and 'rabble rousing' are very pertinent too - particularly the 'brownshirt' promotion of anti-Semitism.

I think that what we see happening now with respect to the largely manufactured hysteria about Muslims in general and Arabs in particular may be analytically regarded as sharing many structural similarities with global vilification of Jews between the First and Second World Wars.

And of course these are the very same sentiments that were most successfully harnessed by the vilest totalitarian regimes the world has seen.

Be afraid... be very afraid...

Your government depends on it.
Posted by mahatma duck, Thursday, 10 November 2005 9:00:16 AM
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