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The Forum > Article Comments > Terrorists for prisoners > Comments

Terrorists for prisoners : Comments

By Danny Lamm, published 24/7/2008

Hezbollah and Israel, last week, exchanged the bodies of two kidnapped Israeli soldiers for a convicted terrorist and four others. Is this justice?

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But Israel had the opportunity to negotiate the freedom of these two occupiers. They chose instead to attack the soverign nation of Lebanon. Slaughter thousands of innocent civilians and left behind after their forced withdrawal thousands of those dispicible unexploded cluster bombs.

Spare me your violins ... the Israelis are just as bad as their enemies.
Posted by keith, Thursday, 24 July 2008 10:57:06 AM
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What's the difference between a terrorist and a patriot?
Answer your side.
Objectively I would argue that Israel is a terrorist state a better PR system apparatus of which you are a part. Your wording and context is not a debate but part of a campaign to sell your self made problems/perspective here in some hope that Israel will gain some advantage.
This approach denies reality and paints Israel as being the national version of Big Tobacco, it serves someone else's interests, it doesn't accept the consequences of its actions, when tackled or inhibited it simply markets its deadly spin elsewhere.Legal but morally dubious. This problem is not about an event today it is the consequences of 100 yrs of zionism and 60 years of the immorality of the end justifying the means. Neither is Israel alone in this obscenity.
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 24 July 2008 2:31:08 PM
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Keith,

The Sovereign nation of Lebanon committed an act of war by invading the sovereign nation of Israel and kidnapping two of its citizens.
Posted by Paul.L, Thursday, 24 July 2008 4:15:51 PM
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Examinator, you wrote:

"This problem is not about an event today it is the consequences of 100 yrs of zionism"

Einat Haran had 4 years to live, Yael Haran only two: what did they know about zionism?

Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were young reservist conscripts, too young to have any influence on Israel's creation and policies. They had families, friends, a job, a life, they were simply born and grew up in Israel, the only place they could call "home", yet all you are able to call those poor souls is "occupiers".

Aren't you yourself an occupier, having taken over Australia's original population (assuming you descend from white settlers)? How come you still live in this terrorist state? How come you allow your children to call Australia home?

You claim that it is all about 60-100 years ago, but in fact it is all about today: Arab and Iranian Islamists are attempting to kill everyone in Israel TODAY, not just 60-100 years ago. With the exception of a few remaining senior-citizens, Israel's population is made of people who were born after their state existed, or were children when it started, yet the bombs and rockets make no distinctions, nor do murderers like Samir Kuntar.

Please save your "immorality of the end justifying the means" to the time when your own home and family are attacked.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 24 July 2008 7:03:12 PM
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I would agree that Australia, like Israel, was founded on acts of terror. And as descendent of white settlers coming to this country in the nineteenth century, I have benefited from the terror inflicted on the local inhabitants who were cleared out of the area I now live.

However, I do not demand that indigenous people live in separate enclaves. I do not use helicopters to shoot them. I do not clear them out of suburbs I may want to move to. I do not destroy their homes because one of their friends or relatives committed a crime and I do not demand they form a separate state. Nor does it worry me if Aboriginal people were (by a miracle) to make up over 50 percent of the Australian population.

Jews have always lived in the area now called Israel - even after the Romans killed many of them in the First and Second Centuries AD. And they have every right to. They have no right, as far as I'm concerned, to maintain a "Jewish state" anymore than Saudi Arabia should be an exclusively "Arab state".

Supporters of the Israeli regime say it would be "demographic suicide" if Arabs were to become the majority in Israel proper. What if I said that we mustn't have too many Jews in Australia or else it would be demographic suicide? Wouldn't that be a tad bigotted and maybe even anti-semitic?

The weird thing about this whole argument is that most Jewish people don't even live in a country supposedly their own. A bit of perspective could be in order.
Posted by DavidJS, Friday, 25 July 2008 9:43:14 AM
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I find it interesting that those that are critical of Israel are critical no matter what the issue is. It is unsurprising then, that when thousands of people take to the streets to welcome home a murderer while on the other side of the border two families went into mourning, those critical of Israel cannot find even an ounce of sympathy in their heart for the families of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev or the Haran family. Instead, they rehash the same old arguments about the Zionist occupation.
Posted by santiago, Friday, 25 July 2008 1:17:43 PM
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PaulL
Another attempt at a re-write of history. The two Israeli soldiers were taken not by the an army of Lebanon but by a terrorist outfit called Hezbollah. Did you forget? Israel then attacked the soverign state of Lebanon and slaughtered innocents.

And by the way did you mention the hundreds of bodies returned to Hezbollah. How many of those were killed while in custody of the Israelis? How many were innocent bystanders? Do you have an ounce of sympathy for their families? Of course you don't because you've demonised them with your propaganda and lies for years. You are a disgrace Paul L.
Posted by keith, Friday, 25 July 2008 2:35:32 PM
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David JS,

You agree that you are the beneficiary of Aboriginal dispossession. That’s a good start.

But then you say >> “However, I do not demand that indigenous people live in separate enclaves. ... I do not clear them out of suburbs I may want to move to. I do not destroy their homes ... ”

What you are ignoring mate is that has all been done for you already. Aborigines in general accept their dispossession as fait acompli.

By your standards you are a complete hypocrite as I am sure you have no intention of giving your house and land back to its original owners. So you live on someone else land and pretend that somehow you are different. If an aboriginal group from your area came to your home and tried to evict you, you would set the police onto them. If they were violent the police would use the level of violence they deemed necessary to control the situation.

You say >> “. They have no right, as far as I'm concerned, to maintain a "Jewish state" anymore than Saudi Arabia should be an exclusively "Arab state". “

When you smart guys finish rearranging the dictatorial and theocratic Arab countries, and get them to accept non muslim rule, then we can work on loosening the communists grip on China and North Korea, and maybe then we can work on DEMOCRATIC Israel.

For years the PLO and Hamas, along with a handful of Arab neighbours, have been terrorizing Jews in their goal to crush the state of Israel. By allowing a majority of Arabs into Israel, they will achieve their aims without firing a shot. Once Arab groups have political power in Israel, that will be the end of Jews in the Middle East. In virtually every other country in the Middle East, Jews have been forced out, and there is no way anyone can guarantee the same thing won’t happen to the Israelis. It is only the fact that you just don't care what happens to Jews that allows you to even suggest this.
Posted by Paul.L, Friday, 25 July 2008 2:57:45 PM
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David,

If an aboriginal was firing rockets into Australian towns, wouldn't Australia use all means, including helicopters if necessary, to shoot him?

If the aboriginal population generally supported suicide bombers among them, which came and indiscriminately blew buses and schools in Australian cities, wouldn't Australia use all means to deter them, including if necessary destroying their homes?

If aboriginals were deliberately planning to multiply their numbers in Australia so they can "democratically" take over and alter our democratic, multi-cultural society into, say, a theocratic regime led by their elders, wouldn't Australia take all necessary steps to prevent it?

We are simply lucky and should be grateful that the aboriginals are not like the Arabs!
(whether it is for the reason mentioned by Paul or simply due to their peaceful nature)

Jews had their autonomy even under the Romans, as well as in their villages in Euorpe: a "state" is not a goal, just a means to allow them to maintain their very life as well as their Jewish life, but in the present Middle-East as we know it, nothing short of that can secure their lives, let alone their culture - they have been through the holocaust and are not fools to let it happen again.

Perhaps you are one of those that believe that everyone should blend with everyone, can live anywhere and do anything they like. I am interested to know how you will feel about it when it is your time to live in a retirement village, being old and frail, while your neighbours exercise their right to raise chickens in the yard, throw loud parties and start their motorbikes in the middle of the night.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 25 July 2008 3:28:15 PM
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Yuyutsu. It is not my intention to convince or gain your support for my views it is enough that you understand them. However the seed author’s intention was sheer propaganda.

My circumstances are irrelevant to the issue at hand. FTR I am not Anglo Saxon but of ‘reffo’ stock. However experiences have taught me to understand both sides’ positions.

It would appear that emotions are clouding your reasoning thus inhibiting perspective.

The British invasion of Australia is irrelevant if only that it happened 200 years ago. Was it right? No! What is important now is MUTUAL acceptance.
Conversely Israel’s creation about 60 years ago was in modern times. Its occupation and its on going appropriation of Arab land continue today.

Given the terrorist means in which the territory was ‘acquired’. (Read the history!) Clear title is still at issue, there are still Arabs alive today who have legitimate titles to land and property in Israel but are denied return. Ergo Children of trespassers are still trespassers.

All needless deaths are wrong even though in a conflict soldiers are a legitimate target but the issue must still be viewed in context.
Collateral damage (women and children) and indiscriminate mass punishment from Israeli incursions are far more common. In recent years even an international peace activists were targeted by the military. Yet despite film evidence Israel still claimed “self defence”.
In the 80’s Israel’s secret service ignored international law and a breached a western country’s sovereignty to execute the ‘wrong’ man. The above easily supports my charge of “the end justifies the means”.

Hamas’ extremism didn’t develop in a vacuum it was born of Zionist aggression and nurtured by continual belligerence on both sided.
Neither side is blameless but this obscenity has killed enough!
It can be argued that The Jewish occupation of ‘Israel’ or being a nation ALTHOUGH A REALITY can’t be supported in history, genetically or no moral grounds. Clearly both sides need to negotiate properly for a solution.
Zionism is simply Jewish (a religion) Nationalism. Dr Johnson wisely said “Patriotism (nationalism) is the last resort of a scoundrel “
Posted by examinator, Friday, 25 July 2008 3:48:48 PM
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Keith,

The country of Lebanon is run by Hezbollah, or hadn’t you noticed the recent coup? Or are you still pretending that Lebanon’s parliament is running the country? How naive.

Israel invaded Lebanon in an attempt to retrieve the two soldiers who were kidnapped, surely an entirely appropriate action, given the Lebanese Gov’ts clear inability to tell Hezbollah what to do. Hezbollah fighters used their people as shields and in the process civilians were killed. This is Hezbollahs fault.

Secondly, the dead Hezbollah returned during the swap were all killed, I imagine, in Israel, after they invaded that country. I don’t feel any more sorry for them than I feel for the Israelis who died in Lebanon during the war.

Goldwasser and Regev, were kidnapped in Israel, alive, and were handed back dead. You cannot be any more clearer about the differences between these two sides when you compare this action, with Israel’s treatment of Kuntar. Not only did Israeli police not kill him on the spot, Israel didn’t kill him after his trial either.

Hezbollah deliberately provoked the war with Israel because they wanted to fight. They knew their best chance was to fight on their own ground, so they did something they knew Israel could not ignore. If Israel hadn’t reacted in this manner, Hezbollah would've done something else.

Your support for terrorists makes you a disgrace. I, at least, am in line with my country, and my PM on this issue, where are you? Off with the dictators, theocrats and murderers. Not particularly surprising for a loony-lefter, although you don’t seem to understand that your kind of airy-fairy, lefty politics makes you an enemy of the people you support.

Us conservatives would survive a lot longer than you liberals under a gov’t of YOUR friends. I can grow my beard, pray to mecca and take an extra couple of wives. But feminists, union leaders, homosexuals, pornographers, atheists and all the other left issue activists would find themselves in a shallow grave or a prison cell if your mates ever attained power in the west. Think on that.
Posted by Paul.L, Friday, 25 July 2008 4:21:32 PM
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PaulL

Under the policies of the loony right wingers, like yourself, I seem to be able to recall on at least one occassion at least 6 million innocent souls perished in concentration camps.

I'm not conservative nor socialist, I am liberal. But I doubt you'd actually have the capability to understand the nuances.

Now don't you go thinking about Iran having the ability to target Israel with nuclear warheads. That would necessiate you having to face the removal of those illegal settlements and compromise on the right of return. Oh and you'd want to hope the Palestinians don't start demanding a return to the borders originally mandated by the UN.

Anything could be on the table now.

And watch those Americans ... they have no stomach for a nuclear conflict ... like every other sensible person in this world.
Posted by keith, Friday, 25 July 2008 6:11:58 PM
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As I expected the usual racist arguments in favour of Israel dressed up in the language of victimhood. Bleatings about PLO and Hamas terrorism against the Israeli regime which conveniently ignore Zionist terrorism that preceded the founding of both organisations. And not only that. The Israeli state has a record of selling weapons to anti-semitic regimes such as Argentina (under the Junta between 1976 to 1983), apartheid South Africa, and Chile under Pinochet. I am aware other nations also do this but supporters of Israel appear to believe that country is somehow exceptional, always a victim and put it on a very high pedestal indeed (which it inevitably falls off).

"When you smart guys finish rearranging the dictatorial and theocratic Arab countries, and get them to accept non muslim rule, then we can work on loosening the communists grip on China and North Korea, and maybe then we can work on DEMOCRATIC Israel" says Paul.L. (who is absolutely correct to admit I'm smart).

Actually, that is probably the last thing Zionists want. A democratic Middle East, where Arabs and Jews are treated equally, would undermine Israel's reason to be. I said previously that most Jewish people already live outside Israel. That is, not in it (understand?). Zionist emerged and flourished during an upsurge of anti-semitism in Europe in the late 19th Century and of course Nazism gave it another boost. Democracy and genuine recognition of the rights of Jewish people the world over would eventually kill Zionism.

As I said, we are in an odd situation with many Jews (such as the author of this article) supporting Israel but from afar. Most Jewish people are intelligent and don't want to live in a ghetto in the Middle-East. But by choosing that, they unintentionally undermine the Zionist project.
Posted by DavidJS, Saturday, 26 July 2008 5:57:56 PM
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So much talking here about "zionists" - just as an attempt to forget that Israelis have faces.

"Zionism" in the mentioned context is dead for some decades now (yes, there are still some pockets of crazy-settlers who still believe in expansionist ideas, but they are a minority and do not represent Israel).

In reality, the vast majority of Israelis simply want to get on with the lives. They care about their families, their friends, their homes, their job, their lifestyle, their personal freedom - that's about it. They did not choose "to live in a ghetto in the Middle-East" as DavidJS puts it, but were simply born into those circumstances.

The tragedy is, that given the current situation in the Middle-East, which is led by fanatic Islamists, those simple goals (life, family, friends, homes, jobs, lifestyle, personal-freedom) can only be maintained (and even then with difficulty) by means of an independent and national state, a strong army, nuclear weapons, ties with unwholesome countries, occupation, being hard on another civilian population and the ocassional collateral damage, etc. - painfully sorry, but that's how it is.

No amount of "my grandfather was righter than your grandfather" blames is going to alleviate anything. The situation is NOW, and even, supposedly if, you were able to convince the Israelis that your grandfather was righter than theirs, nobody in Israel is stupid enough to offer their neck to the slaughter as a result.

For those who naively claim that "the two sides need to sit down and seriously negotiate a settlement" - well, the TWO sides have done so already, and on their own they would have settled everything long ago, except that in fact there are much more than two sides to the conflict - at least five: Israel, Palestine, Jewish-settlers, Suni-Islamists and Iran (including its Hezbollah arm).

Until you find some magic way to eliminate the extremists ON BOTH SIDES, you should expect no-one to be fooled by words and lay down their arms. Meanwhile, attacking the helpless innocents with your words is simply a form of COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 27 July 2008 3:45:06 AM
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David JS

"A democratic Middle East, where Arabs and Jews are treated equally."

It exists. It is called Israel. Yes the Arabs do not do as well as the European Jews in that country just as some groups don't do as well here, but Israel like us is a democracy. There is an Arab Cabinet Minister in the Knesset, do you not know that?

And are you aware that Christians, Jews, Druze, Baha'i, etc do not have the same rights in most other ME countries as Arabs, Muslim and Christian, have in Israel. Are you aware that Saudi Arabia doesd not allow Churches, or that Israel has Mosques, Churches, Baha'i temples, you name it?

Or that Israel is home to Jewish, Christian, Baha'i, Druze, Samaritan refugees from nearby Islamic republics? That Lebanon no longer has a Christian majority or a Jewish community. That Iran destroyed Baha'i places of worship which is why that community had to resettle in Israel. Or that Israel settled refugees from Dafur who Egypt rejected?

Or that throughout the ME there are homes stolen from up to a million Jewish refugees? These people didn't enjoy the equal legal status in Morocco, Iraq, Egypt etc that Arabs get in Israel. There has never been a discussion for compensation for these people, strange isn't it.

And have you ignored the growth of Islamic fascism? Perhaps that is not the doing of Israel but the cause of the problem.
Posted by logic, Saturday, 2 August 2008 4:06:28 PM
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David, I recently went into a detailed examination of UN Resolution 181 which shows that nobody living outside the Borders of the State of Israel on the day Arrafat recognised Israel has any legal title to any part of Israel. The right of return is a sham argument, nobody has a right to return to a State in which they are not entitled to citizenship (which under UNRES 181, no Palestinian Arab other than those residing there on the date cited above has any right to).

Keith,the Palestinians could insist forever on only agreeing to peace if they get something they have (1) no entitlement to; (2) no hope of getting; and (3) no way of forcing the other side to give them. I have no doubt of that, the puerile 'Right of Return' argument is a convenient example of just that. The simple fact is, they either compromise and deal in good faith or the status quo continues.

The Settler's will continue to carve out large chunks of the West Bank, in order to force the hand of the Palestinians (land for peace, you've heard of it, I'm sure?). All this time, both sides will have people killed, whether combatants or non-combatants, it really doesn't matter, it is a waste either way.

See Israel is a democracy, the majority of voters have no wish to see what happens if several million Palestinians flood the electorate, so they will vote against the concept no matter how many times it is raised (the Palestinian Arabs/Christians have no wish to be killed as collaborator's so they vote against it too). Wonder what the people in the West Bank or Gaza would vote if they were asked, 'Should we (a) continue to ask for hold out for the impossible; or (b) should we settle for the best deal possible?'
Posted by Haganah Bet, Sunday, 3 August 2008 11:11:20 PM
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In answer to Logic, first of all the lack of democracy in Israel's neighbours is well-known and a given. For Jordan or Egypt to claim to be democratic would be met with laughter. Also the presence of Arab citizens in the state of Israel is well-known. But they are manageable. When Israel directly occupied the West Bank and Gaza (after 1967 and prior to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority) Arabs were not accorded the rights of Israeli citizens? Why? The argument of demographic suicide. Palestinians in those territories were too numerous (Haganah Bet reiterates a similar argument).

Israel is not the only country where we see the demographic suicide argument in its various forms. In late 19th and early 20th Australia the Yellow Peril loomed. More recently, we were apparently about to be swamped by Vietnamese and now Muslims. Protestants in Northern Ireland worry about being swamped by Catholics outbreeding them. Anti-Muslim hysteria crops up in Western Europe. In Austria, people worry there are too many Jews! In other words, the argument is drearily familar and hysterical as far as I'm concerned. And bigotted. As I said, to argue against too many Arabs who may come to or be born in Israel is like saying Australia has too many Jews.
Posted by DavidJS, Monday, 4 August 2008 11:26:11 PM
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DavidJS

There is no danger of any other group swamping out other Australians, challenging our democracy, wanting to change our religion and legal system for their own if necessary by force, and wishing to dominate us. But that is what Israel has to face.

Also the track record of Islamic nations over the last 200 or so years is frankly not very good. Israel has good grounds for concern. Also most Israelis would be very happy to see Gaza and West Bank as neighbours with functioning modern democracies. Hamas certainly doesn't want that.

I have to remind you that Israel does have a democracy with universal suffrage, religious freedom, and a separation of powers based on the British system. Israelis cherish that as we do. There is also the Dhimmi system under the old Arab administrations, which almost half of Israel's population once lived under, they don't want a return of that.
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 10:01:41 PM
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