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The Forum > Article Comments > Rudd and Wong’s emissions trading choice > Comments

Rudd and Wong’s emissions trading choice : Comments

By Christine Milne, published 21/7/2008

Rudd and Wong are so paralysed by fear that, for all their talk of transformation, they are clinging to the past.

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dalma : "Painting the kettle black, the Greenies minority Party are no better at posturing and pandering to populism as any other. After all, where else would they find the lucrative lurks and perks of Office except in Oz's chimerical Parliament ?"

The Greens senators were the ones lobbying against their own pay rise weren't they?

They have also been campaigning against climate change for many years before it became a headline issue. It a shame there are too polite to say "I told you so." It can hardly be called populism.
Posted by Sams, Thursday, 24 July 2008 9:12:23 AM
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Janama, I am interested in understanding your position more clearly. I hope you can bear with me to answer some questions.
In my first post (see page 6 on 22 July) I made a statement about probabilities. Do you agree with that concept but disagree with the numbers - and if so what numbers would you put in?
Posted by KeithH, Thursday, 24 July 2008 9:40:20 AM
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Christine Milne is Anti-Green when she regards CO2 as a very dangerous pollutant. If there is any one thing that is known about carbon dioxide and global change with any certainty it is that more CO2 in the air substantially enhances the growth of plants as well as the efficiency with which they utilize water. i.e. When we think of all the extra and free fertiliser we should be out there working with the goods.

Her penance should include repeating this most important assumption out aloud 100 times:
"CO2 release is good for people, the very reason for our existence and enhances the biosphere/environment."
Posted by Keiran, Thursday, 24 July 2008 3:58:00 PM
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Kieran: "Christine Milne is Anti-Green when she regards CO2 as a very dangerous pollutant. If there is any one thing that is known about carbon dioxide and global change with any certainty it is that more CO2 in the air substantially enhances the growth of plants as well as the efficiency with which they utilize water. i.e. When we think of all the extra and free fertiliser we should be out there working with the goods."

This is ignorant of the facts that:

(a) CO2 a greenhouse gas

"MELBOURNE, Adelaide and Sydney will blister in temperatures of more than 50C by 2050"
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24068155-11949,00.html
(original source: University of NSW Climate Change Research Centre in Sydney. )

(b) the U.S. EPA recommends against long term exposure f humans to CO2 at concentrations exceeding 1000ppm (0.1%); nobody yet knows what smaller concentrations might do in the long term for other animal species.

(c) more CO2 doesn't equate to more plant growth
"High Carbon Dioxide Levels Can Retard Plant Growth, Study Reveals"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021206075233.htm
(original source: Stanford University / Biology Dept.)

(d) CO2 causes ocean acidification affects, and other forms of indirect damage
Posted by Sams, Thursday, 24 July 2008 5:21:55 PM
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Sams, i must confess i should do my best to disinfect the poor sods who suffer from this all twisted up Al-AGW mind virus.

What is an appropriate treatment is debatable but a good starting point is to somehow look at the bigger picture experience outside your cosy confined playpen. When we speak of "experience," the "ex" refers to "external" or "outside," which is what science is best at. Scientists define truth as to how well an idea survives under an interaction with what you would only understand as the "outside world" . From my perspective my mind is connected to my biology and the infinite environment so there is in fact no "outside world" but a unified whole. It is a peculiar fact that cleverly designed mind viruses always operate to separate mind from body, mind from environment, mind from the material universe, producing damaged goods rather than the true achievement of human potential.

a) Yes CO2 is a greenhouse gas but not really anything much of a greenhouse gas for planet earth once it gets the early work done and above 0 degrees Celsius. The "'extreme' extremes" referred to in that link are opportunistic bits of cherry picking using regional variations to deviously slot in human CO2 emissions as the culprit. .... i.e. pseudo-science chasing funding

b) Atmospheric CO2 concentrations exceeding 1000ppm will take a monstrous amount of fossil burning but when looking at the historically bigger picture we see that life will simply thrive with greater diversity.

c) More CO2 fertiliser doesn't always equate to more plant growth if you have dry seasons but in better seasons and with built up soil nutrients you will always get better growth. Any veritable, down to earth good gardener would see this as common knowledge because it is feed the soil first not the plant.

d) This "CO2 causes ocean acidification" is simply an ocean of frothing delusion, Sams. It has been discussed on OLO just recently but it also points to a need for much greater scientific understanding and research ......... not emotional pseudo-scientific alarm.
e.g.
http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/acid2.htm
Posted by Keiran, Friday, 25 July 2008 12:10:55 PM
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