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The Forum > Article Comments > Jews on Jews > Comments

Jews on Jews : Comments

By Antony Loewenstein, published 18/7/2008

Many younger American Jews are growing increasingly disillusioned with the Jewish state.

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Yuyutsu,

What's this unchanging? Israel's borders certainly are not unchanging.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:42:22 PM
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Bushbred,

I note with interest that you could not identify how Israel's possession of nuclear weapons has influenced events in the middle east. I am not surprised.

The only way Israel has upset the balance of power in the Middle east is by refusing to die, as the Arabs and many of the western left have long hoped for. Your understanding of these events is shallow and non analytical. It seems you are repeating arguments of tutors long gone, without any understanding of their basis.

I'll give you another chance. How has the balance of power changed since Israel became nuclear armed? How has Israel used its nukes in an offensive capacity to alter outcomes in the middle east?

Your contention that Israels acquisition of nukes was what caused Arab hatred is astoudingly naive. Its just not the case at all. Arabs hate Israel's very existence. They also hate the fat that the combined might of Arab arms was soundly defeated three times in 60 years. They hate the fact that Palestinians lost land and possessions. But more than anything they hate the Jews for showing them up in the own back yard, for being more successful economically, for being militarily strong, and for having the wrong religion.

Keith,

Where EXACTLY are Israel's borders changing?? Please be specific.

YoungSteve,

I am impressed. A leftie who has read the hamas charter and hasn't sought to excuse it or downplay it is rare. This foundation document is totally consistent with everything Hamas do.

I too used to be a leftie, I spent a number of years studying politics and sociology at UNI and they relentlessly pushed the leftist view of all things, which at the time I accepted as gospel.

I think the left has some valid principals but the philosophical underpinnings of socialist/communist doctrines are fatally flawed, based as they are upon an unrealistic understanding of the human condition
Posted by Paul.L, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 2:41:29 PM
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Keith, thank you for bringing the issue:

When survival is at stake, petty matters like legality and borders are made secondary.

I would love to see Israel back in its 1967 borders, but alas it is unrealistic, given that Israel's enemies would not accept Israel's existence in ANY borders.

While there are Arab moderates that accept Israel's existence, it is tragically in the nature of the Arab/Islamic world that extremists prevail as the moderates have no power to stop them.

Israel has tried several times to get rid of those extra territories, but to no avail. Arafat was offered those territories (about 97%, with other land as compensation for the remaining 3%) to have a Palestinian state on: he refused! Israel then withdrew completely and unilatelrally from the Gaza strip (and some West Bank settlements) - only to find those areas that it left being used as rocket launching pads into towns and villages within Israel itself.

Listen to what the convicted terrorist who was just released back to Leabnon after killing an Israel family in cold blood said: he will never stop fighting and killing, even after Lebanon receives its disputed lands, until Israel is totally annihilated. He is not a single crazyman, but has the backing of large and fully armed militias which nobody in the Arab world has the power and/or willingness to stop.

So long that such is the Arab/Islamic nature, Israel needs to do whatever it can to secure its borders, and that may include extending them with security buffer zones, if necessary even kicking out all hostile population from those zones. What I completely agree with you, and happy to condemn Israel for, is that, besides security, Israel should have no other interest or claim on those territories - these are military buffer zones needed for its protection, they should be kept as such and no Israeli civilian should be allowed there.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 2:59:02 PM
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Yuyutsu, please get real about global laws. On the subject in the Uni' Humanies you'd be lucky to be getting 4 out of 10.

I might mention that if Israel has never gained permisssion from both Geneva and Hague Conventions to go militarily nuclear, she illegally still stands as a criminal state.

Of course, the great weakness in today's world, is today's largest power, America breaking similar laws herself, rendering the decisions of the United Nations pretty well useless - so coldly amusingly revealed as Condoleeza Rice takes pride of place
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 4:42:20 PM
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Look at that corrupt Israeli PM Olmert. While there are honest Jewish Israelis it is tragically in the nature of the Jewish/Israeli world that corruption and land stealing prevails as the honest ones have no power to stop them.

Now you can call me bigoted and racist Yuyutsu. But I've merely paraphrased your bigotry and racism.

And of course so long as Israel keeps menacing and stealing it's neighbours lands with weapons and corruption then Palestine needs to put in place security buffer zones on Israeli territory. Naturally it would have the same rights to kick out hostile populations. ie the same rights you claim for Israel? Pretty dumb arguments eh Yuyutsu?

Please produce the maps of what was offered to Arafat. If you cannot then you are dealing with rumour.

PaulL:

All the illegally established settlements and their 'thickenning', extensions and developments from 1967 to 2008. Specific enough?

And I am a rightwing Liberal (Australian variety) who has not only read Hamas Charter but also Hamas election manifesto. Have you? I doubt that you'd be interested as election manifestos are part of the democratic processes.

I guessed you'd moved from being leftie but I shouldn't have thought your move to extreme right wing fascism was at all appropriate.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 6:32:59 PM
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Bushbred, I can only be proud to get 4 out of 10 on a subject I never studied: I'll be happy to get more detailed information, just for my curiosity, but as I said earlier, when your life and your family are at stake, it is better to live in a "criminal state" than to be politically-correct six foot under.

Nice word-play, Keith, but the corruption thing is just a red herring (since money was invented there always were people who loved it too much, and others who got promotions for catching them and putting them in jail... but how off-topic).

Yes, there are people who steal lands - I totally despise them.
However, most Jewish settlers bought their land in the occupied territories (in cash, from Arabs who love money too much) - I don't like them either, but we still need to get the facts straight.

Israel does not menace its neighbours, but they constantly menace Israel, which they did long before Israel acquired nuclear weapons.

Before discussing any "rights", we need to establish some common ground: do you or don't you agree that Israel has a right to live?

Let me break down this question - do you or don't you agree that Jews are entitled to:

1. stay alive
2. stay in their homes in Israel (within the 1967 borders, to be exact)
3. invite their relatives and other Jews who are oppressed in other countries to live with them
4. be safe from violent attacks and terrorism
5. have personal freedom
6. have cultural freedom
7. have religious freedom
8. speak their own language
9. celebrate the Sabbath as their weekly day of rest and the Jewish holidays as public holidays
10. live in a society that supports all the above

If you answered "NO", than all I can say is "let the guns do the talking"

If you answered "YES" to all questions, then my friend, you are a zionist, because that's all that Israel is really about! (the rest is just implementation details and other quirks, which I will be happy to discuss)
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 11:27:27 AM
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