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The Forum > Article Comments > Not all change is bad > Comments

Not all change is bad : Comments

By Rodney Croome, published 15/7/2008

Does removing marriage discrimination against gay couples open the door to polygamous unions?

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Interesting approach, as always Rodney. I've always thought that the most simple retort to the crazed claims that same-sex marriage will lead to polygamy is that marriage permits an individual to reciprocally nominate one other person who will speak for them when they can't, and who will be their main beneficiary if the worst happens to them.

As such, the gender of that person should be utterly irrelevant - they just need to be a consenting adult who accepts the rights and responsibilities involved.

Adding multiple spouses to that mix obviously exponentially complicates that simple equation. If polygamists want relationship recognition, they better spell out how the relatively simple rules of marriage can be adapted for them (which is not needed - at all - in same-sex marriage). They also need to vastly increase their PR efforts. Keysar Trad isn't going to get that job done any time soon.

And as for the homophobes out there who will shout that hetero marriage is for child rearing - just can it. They don't take the licence off you if you don't breed, and they don't take the kid off you if you don't marry.
Posted by Cosmogirl, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 12:53:09 PM
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Afganistan, Iran, Iraq. All Muslim nations housing men with many wives. These are countries which do not portray a pretty picture.

I see no lobbying group from the Mormon community in this nation. They too must have come to their senses and realised that this sort of patronising polygamy "protection" is what women don't need and all for the benefit of men who want more sexual partners!

What other concessions to Muslims can we expect to make?

If polygamy was ever legally recognised then polyandry would need to be legally recognised too. You cannot just allow a man to have multiple wives - a girl would need to be allowed to have multiple husbands too.

But then it would be a brave Muslim woman who recommends polyandry. Who would want to be stoned and beaten by the polygamists?

Keysar Trad already has nine children to one wife. With some 6.5 billion people on this fragile planet we must therefore ask what motivates his “procreate or perish” mindset. Domination?

The Daily Telegraph reported that when Mrs Trad was asked if it was just about wanting sex with more women, she said: "Yeah it can be, but having it in the right way instead of having it in like go to prostitute or just date".

“This isn’t a coincidence. Same-sex marriage and polygamy are not just different, they are utterly incompatible.”

Touché Rodney – I’ll drink to that!
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 2:20:54 PM
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Kerry Shine

You've failed to allude to the heterosexuals - the happily married gentlemen - heaps of them, who like to covertly hang around public toilets to do a bit of "poo pushing" themselves.

Now Kerry what about the other group of heterosexuals - mostly happily married too who like to sodomise little boys and girls - hmmm?

So if the deceitful bi-sexuals and the heinous paedophiles are permitted to legally marry, pray tell why you object to homosexuals having the same rights?

You advise: "If the Bible has any relevance then God finds it (sodomy and lesbianism) an abomination."

Well some of us find the Bible an abomination too and no Kerry I don't believe it has much relevance these days at least not with those who engage in critical thinking.

Cheers
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 6:50:00 PM
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Forget it, Dickie. This is a troll, and a particularly poisonous one at that.

"Kerry Shine" won't be around here for much longer.
Posted by jpw2040, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 6:55:20 PM
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As Rodney says, "Same-sex marriage only begins to make sense in a society where there is social and economic equity between men and women and legal equality between marriage partners."

This is the main point which distinguishes same-sex marriage and marriage as it currently stands in Australia from polygamy (and adult-child marriage for that matter). The first two forms of marriage are based on equality. The second two are inherently unequal.

Not only that, the second two have had a long history but are now illegal in democratic countries. To say that same-sex marriage will somehow lead to polygamy etc gets history back-to-front. We've already had the latter two forms of marriage and they do nothing to enhance the equality and dignity of women and children. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Posted by DavidJS, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 6:52:25 AM
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Rodney is the only person that I know of that has tried to link same sex marriages with polygamy.

I think he is trying to further the gay cause by engaging in a bit of muslim bashing. Everyone knows that muslims are opposed to homosexuality but most accept polygamy.

In recent threads on polygamy, those opposing it could not put forward any practical argument. The same situation may exist for same sex marriage and if so there is no need to introduce additional non related factors.

Most probably same sex marriages have more chance of becoming law than polygamy.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 10:14:08 AM
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THis author has it the wrong-way around... Actually, polygamy is about the oppression OF MALES!

Think about it, there are virtually equal numbers of boys and girls born. So, for every second-wife, there is a man who is going to die childless, and probably as a virgin.

What polygamy tells young men is that if you powerfull and rich, you can have several wives. The implicit threat in this is that if you are not, then you will remain childless - effectively the Male Eunuch! That is the choice for boys.

The choice for girls is different. What it means is that regardless of who you are and how attractive/well-connected you are, you will be protected and you will have a family, and watch your children grow up!

Watch your children grow up, compared to death? Which would you choose?

Because the maths means that for every second-wife, there is a un-wed male.

How do societies go-on being polygamous? Well, basically, the math only works if many men are either killed (and that partly explains the violence of the polygamous world), or you are too poor to support a family. So, put another way, poor women live and enjoy their families, poor men die alone.

polygamy is male oppression, or more correctly, a society of three castes, or three classes.

1: an tiny elite of powerfull men, supporting several wives

2: All women are proteted in a sort-of comfortable a middle class; All protected, fed, clothed and able to enjoy watching their children grow.

3: a slave-class of oppressed men, too poor to support families, used as cannon-fodder in a violent society, who die alone.

Tell you what, I'm male, but given these choices, I'd rather be a woman!

PartTimeParent@pobox.com
www.fathers4equality-australia.org
Posted by partTimeParent, Monday, 21 July 2008 12:01:20 PM
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Polygamy is male oppression? Then why are males rather than women promoting polygamy here and overseas? Where are the women's voices in favour of it? And why does this male feel quite happy not bothering with partnership (male or female) and quite happy being single? Am I oppressed and don't know it?

As for dying a virgin worse things can happen to you. And don't forget that the Catholic priesthood and religious groups in the US such as True Love Waits regard virginity as a positive.

If you want to be a woman then good luck to you with your sex-change operation. If you don't want to go through with that then have a self-imposed miserable life as a male. The choice is yours.
Posted by DavidJS, Monday, 21 July 2008 1:51:44 PM
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Both polygamy and 'gay' marriage is destructive for children. As soon as we stop promoting this perversion the better. The gay lobby lies habitually in order to gain acceptance with the wider community. Check out the facts here

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02
Posted by runner, Monday, 21 July 2008 2:25:57 PM
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DavidJS wrote: "Polygamy is male oppression? Then why are males rather than women promoting polygamy here and overseas?"

David, you missed my main point... there are three classes of people:
1: at the top powerfull men, who sometimes oppress
2: In the guilded cage, comfortable, protected women
3: opressed, powerless men.

To reply to your point, only those males who fantasise about being in the top class are talking about polygamy.

In the middle class, many muslim women do speak very positively about polygamy. Even on the politically correct feminist-controlled media like Australia's ABC, you occasionally see muslim women advocating polygamy, and talking of how it frees them from the suffering of facing competition. The veil frees women from having to compete or feel inferior if they are not rake-thin super-models).

And the voices of the third group, the voice of the oppressed? Well, dead men don't talk, and the oppressed male is never listened to.

Look at Aboriginals
In Australia, you can measure oppression by things like:
Life expectancy
completing school
Uni enrolments
rates of suicide
likelyhood of drug use
likelyhood of smoking
likelyhood of bring an alcoholic
likelyhood of being a victim of violence
likelyhood of being convicted for a crime and the length of time in jail
death from preventable illness
rates of obesity
income (after controlling industry, education and experience)

On all of these measures, and many others, there it is clear that Aboriginals are struggling, compared to non-aboriginal Australians... and also using these same statistics, it is clear that generally males are far worse off than women in Australia.

Don't let the few men who are at the top, blind us to the vast majority of the people at the bottom, who are also men.

PartTimeParent@pobox.com
Posted by partTimeParent, Monday, 21 July 2008 2:34:51 PM
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When I read articles like this I'm left wondering why (apart from my own values) I should support gay rights.

If the authors views are typical of the gay community then the shared bond I'd imaginged in believing that the government should keep it's nose out of the domestic arrangements of consenting adults is not there.

If it's OK for other peoples views to restrict the legal protections of those who think two is not enough then why is it not OK for other peoples views to restrict the rights of those with a same sex orientation?

I've never been part of a poly relationship not had a pressing desire to be part of one but I've supported the idea of legal protections being extended to such relationships because I don't think it's the governments place to tell consenting adults what arrangements they may make between themselves. I've supported legal protection for gay relationship's on the same basis.

I've heard the arguments that it disadvantages women but any disadvantage in our overall legal framework would seem to be an existing one which is not made markedly worse by poly status.

I've heard the point that it disadvantages lower status men but perhaps a poly marriage with one women and several men might be an option that some would take up.

If gay rights are not in part about stopping other peoples morals from overriding the choices of consenting adults then what are they about?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 21 July 2008 7:41:58 PM
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It is certainly true that many men are not part of the ruling class. Men doing time in prison, men with serious mental health problems and homeless men are some of those who are pretty much powerless. But then so are women prisoners, women with serious mental health issues and homeless women. And you can add to that list lesbians. Ok, not every lesbian. Kerryn Phelps and Penny Wong are well-off. However, most lesbians are not and, in addition to the usual crap women have to put up with, lesbians are certainly not allowed to marry the partner of their choice and suffer other forms of oppression solely due to their sexual identity.

I agree with the author on same-sex marriage. But sometimes I worry that it distracts from other problems faced by gay people which will not be solved even if same-sex marriage legislation was put in place tomorrow.
Posted by DavidJS, Monday, 21 July 2008 11:20:06 PM
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