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The Forum > Article Comments > Why 'questioning secularism' destroys religious freedom > Comments

Why 'questioning secularism' destroys religious freedom : Comments

By Bronwyn Winter, published 2/5/2008

Academic freedom, religious freedom and gay rights: why 'questioning the secular' is a reactionary discourse.

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It's great to read a thoughtful and insightful analysis of the complex interactions between religious fundamentalists and the secular left. I hope someone draws Kevin Rudd's attention to your article.
Posted by Susan Hawthorne, Friday, 2 May 2008 3:38:41 PM
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Dear Matilda. I'm not sure on what basis you criticized my post. Could you provide some background as to your qualifications for that? Maybe it's just 'opinion'.. which doesn't carry much weight.

There are a number of ways to interpet a text, yes. You can do it the 'devotional' way..where you emphasize the symbolic value for us. Lets take 'David and Goliath' for example. The usual evangelical devotional approach is to emphasise "We all have Goliaths in our lives" (Big challenges) But that does not alter the fact that it is a story of real people, and the survival of Israel from Philistine bondage depended on the outcome of the fight. That is in fact, the 'only' way to understand the text objectively. You might like to consider its place in the cultural history and self justification of Israel, but would need to support this with evidence.

When Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me" well..its pretty clear and unambiguous. You can debate or interpret the meaning of 'by me' or.. 'to the Father' but whatever you decide, it should harmonize with the other things Jesus said.

10 Commandments. "Do not covet your neighbours wife" etc.. not rocket science.

Surah 23:5-6 "A man may have sex with his wiveS and those(captive slave girls) his right hand possesses." again.. quite clear and the meaning cannot be 'spiritualized'. Unless that specific permission is abrogated by a later verse in the Quran, it applies 100% to today in an Islamic State.

I speak from 3 yrs of theological training which included big chunks of what is called 'hermeneutics' (look it up). I've also made quite a study of Islamic doctrine, beliefs and history over the past 4 yrs.
While you might get different answers from different people about some things, it remains the case that pretty much all mainstream Muslims refer back to the 5 or so major schools of jurisprudence. What I said, reflects their view.
cheers.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 2 May 2008 4:39:06 PM
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Can you believe this woman is a Doctor? She writes 'the battle for secular democracy was a long and violent one within Christianity also, and is by no means over, as was demonstrated by the former Howard government’s relentless re-Christianisation of public space, community services and government funding directions (such as increased funding to Christian schools).

Comparing putting Christian Chaplains into schools with violence just shows how bigoted and blinded Bronwyn is. As I have mentioned on numerous occasions the most dangerous place for a person on earth in in their mothers womb thanks to the stupidity of human secularism. It is very hard to take someone so seriously who so misrepresents and is blinded to the fact that this country has been built on many Christian principles. The more secular we have become the more violent we have followed.

She is also in denial that even many secularist pay to send their kids to 'Christian schools' because of the complete failure of the fully funded secular schools. Time to open your eyes to your own blindness Bronwyn!
Posted by runner, Friday, 2 May 2008 5:07:31 PM
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Boazy: "it remains the case that pretty much all mainstream Muslims refer back to the 5 or so major schools of jurisprudence. What I said, reflects their view."
What cr@p. I've never met *any* Muslim whose belief system is anywhere close to the prejudicial rantings that you spout forth on these boards. Don't get me wrong — while I don't read much of your posts myself these days, I still like you posting, because you've done more than Richard Dawkins to turn people away from Christianity and on to atheism. But we all know you're telling porkies.

Meanwhile, this was an excellent article.

Oh, Boazy, by the way LESSON TIME. You should really try to get a refund on all that theological training, you know. You got ripped off.
Posted by Vanilla, Friday, 2 May 2008 5:08:10 PM
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Let's be honest: Islam is only doing what any religion attempts to do -- impose its worldview on other people by pretending that it represents universal truth, and that anyone who dissents must be silenced or converted. In this it is extremely successful -- much more so than Christianity, which has been fighting a losing battle against science and secularism for the last 500 years. Islam is winning its battle against science. How many Nobel prize winners come from Islamic countries?

As long as religion persists, there will be people who sincerely believe they know what is best for Australia and the world without the need to consider a shred of evidence or a single line of rational argument. One cannot simply 'separate' Church and State and expect people who don't believe in evidence and reason to sit by quietly while an elected government puts their souls in peril.

If secular government is worth having then the only way to achieve it is to make it clear that any contribution to national or global progress must be based on reason, evidence and logic, not on divinely-inspired fantasies; and that any claim to special privileges by any interest group must be judged solely on its empirical merits, not on the basis of who their Saviour is or when or where he grew up.

'Separating' Church and state is as daft as 'separating' psychotics from the rest of us, in the pious hope that they will then quietly leave us alone. Let us treat the religious with understanding and sympathy by all means, while we try and heal their delusions; but until then we must make it clear that their beliefs have no place in a rational debate.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 2 May 2008 5:28:28 PM
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I had similar thoughts to matilda, boaz. This piece is far from apologetics for Islam.

You got as far as reading that Islam is a broad religion, then your anti-Islam reactionary bias kicked in.

A good section of the piece is heavily critical of Saudi funding to universities. The whole piece is about the importance of not giving one religion preference over another and maintaining a secular state.

Your christian fundamentalism is very clearly clouding your judgement on this piece.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 2 May 2008 6:36:30 PM
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