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The Forum > Article Comments > The sluts-r-us approach to childhood play > Comments

The sluts-r-us approach to childhood play : Comments

By Melinda Tankard Reist, published 8/5/2008

A new virtual fashion game gives young girls the message that their ultimate aim in life is to be a bimbo.

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Well. Old news about the Bimbo site. Cheap article with basically nothing new to say. Can I get a job writing articles? It seems I'd be well suited.

Only one real 'point' made, in the last sentance...
'Why can’t game makers come up with games that make girls feel good about themselves rather than selling a message damaging to their health and wellbeing?'

Is it a call for censorship? Just a whinge?

I think children these days are much more media savvy than most adults give them credit for. They can see the world around them and how it works, and if you try to sanitise their play time choices, they know they are being lied to. If you take guns away from little boys playing, they'll just use a stick, or their fingers. Those happy to be me dolls really didn't sell did they?

Regardless, media is not all powerful. Children have parents, and peers, and eyes and brains.

On a tangent, why is it more acceptable/moral to celebrate intellect than beauty? Both are genetic.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Thursday, 8 May 2008 10:07:36 AM
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'Why can’t game makers come up with games that make girls feel good about themselves rather than selling a message damaging to their health and wellbeing?'

Why don't parents care enough to stop their kids playing this rubbish?
Posted by runner, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:16:42 AM
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Well said, runner.

In my view, the makers of this game do have the right to make it, though that doesn't mean it isn't rubbish.

Reist is hardly making a particularly insightful point here. I can see some wry humour in this game, most probably of a sarcastic nature. But I suspect that children wouldn't get that humour.

As usual, it's up to the parents to look out for these things. I wouldn't condone banning this game however, though I can't help but wonder if Reist would feel that way.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:23:04 AM
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is this game any different to ones such as gta? it's all just entertainment. who cares?
Posted by no1inparticular, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:42:15 AM
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Yes, ha ha.

Great humour if it's your child that's being encouraged to kill themselves by embracing these dangerous ideals.

I have several friends that have been experiencing this excruciating nightmare with their own daughters.

Interesting how censorship is only acceptable by parents, who are also expected to be all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful.

McDonalds have been sued for promoting behaviour that is damaging to health. It is only a matter of time until parents get mad enough to launch class actions against promoters of products like these that are harming and even killing their kids.

Perhaps the costs of compensating hurting families will make these promoters think twice about targeting little kids.
Posted by 61, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:44:40 AM
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THIS THREAD is a good dance partner with the one INDOCTRINATION...

because "Miss Bimbo" right now has 844 on line players and 566,000 registered users.

I suspect that if we dug a bit, we would find that somewhere in the dark recesses of it's management, are those with vested financial interests in the values they are promoting. Jewellery, food, fashion accessories magazines etc.

Pharmeceutical companies 'indoctrinate' the masses with suttle fear campaigns using indirect advertising, to create a CLIMATE of fear over certain medical issues for which they (no surprise here) happen to have the PERFECT MEDICAL REMEDY for......

Same same with this Bimbo thing.

Melinda.. you go girl :) but be bolder.. do your own youtube vid and utterly tear strips off these callous money grubbing people who take our children as slaves and sell them to the highest corporate bidder.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:56:49 AM
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61,

'encouraged to kill themselves ', 'excruciating nightmare '

Hysterical much? That's comedy gold!

'McDonalds have been sued for promoting behaviour that is damaging to health. It is only a matter of time until parents get mad enough to launch class actions against promoters of products like these that are harming and even killing their kids. '

This attitude is the problem with the world. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS. A game, or an advert, or a movie is not responsible for your actions.

It seems these days, instead of teaching kids not to be vain, or that the media doesn't reflect reality, just allow them to be vain and tell them it's the media's fault and they should sue.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Thursday, 8 May 2008 1:37:30 PM
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US,

AS withn the tobaccp industry one most semonstrate actual cause and effect to the satisfaction of the Law which can be a generation behinf connon sense. Like it or not the current 40-40s generation might live longer than their childern, inless medicine pulls a rabbit out of a hat.

McDonalds makes much of its money from real estate whih it buys-up before situating a store, in the knowledge it will attract other retails.

You should view the "Insider" on video?

One thing that might work, on a slightly differnt topic, is class action to stop public companies [Coles, wollworths etc] selling cigareets and tobacco products.
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 8 May 2008 2:08:30 PM
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I’m inclined to agree with the author to some extent, but for complete bimbo crap and total anti-intellectualism, one has to look no further than the myriad of magazines currently being sold to young girls with articles such as: -

“The step by step guide to getting Rhianna’s hair.”

“This month we're giving away 10 tubes of Biotherm Matte Pur Fluid Foundation!”

“We talk to the star of Gossip Girl.”

“Sorry boys, these breasts are taken”

“Haven't lost your kirginity yet? You're not alone! Read this story about first kisses.”

“What does your beauty loot say about you?”

“What does your wardrobe say about you?”
Posted by HRS, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:43:11 PM
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Usual Suspect obviously feels that there is nothing funnier than watching a beautiful young woman starve herself to death, but that is what is happening in many families including that of a very dear friend. Anorexia is one of the most deadly forms of mental illness and young women are particularly susceptible. Usual is obviously ignorant as well as callous.
Posted by 61, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:51:11 PM
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Usual Suspect, runner, TRTL

I understand your libertarian instincts and am very sympathetic to them in lots of situations, but not this one. Parental responsibility is all well and good, I believe in it too. But it's time to acknowledge that many parents for many different reasons are neglecting that responsibility. A lot of parents would have no idea their daughter was visiting such a site and even if they did would not necessarily have the skills to deter her from doing so.

There comes a point where the health and social costs to all of society have to be weighed up against the individual liberty to produce and access damaging rubbish like this. Anorexia and skin cancer, both the end result of behaviours encouraged in this game, are becoming an increasing drain on the public health system. We all pay for that. The cost of repairing the damage from leaking implants and plastic surgery gone wrong will no doubt increasingly be paid for from the public purse as well.

Who are the winners here? The producers and marketers. Who else? I feel it's well past time the rights of people like this to profit from the misery they are knowingly creating should be curtailed in the wider interest of society as a whole.
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:00:17 PM
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Usual Suspect

"I think children these days are much more media savvy than most adults give them credit for."

Not at the ages of 6 and 10 as mentioned by Melinda, or anything in between, or in many cases even when much older. You only have to see the way young girls idolize celebrity, and in particular bimbo types like Paris Hilton, to know that these girls at least are not at all media savvy. The ones that are will most likely be the ones whose parents are exercising their parental responsibility in this area. Many teachers do a great job in developing critical awareness, but their window of opportunity is small compared to the all-pervasive influence of corporate advertising and peer group pressure. Their best efforts will most likely fail if parents aren't doing their bit to foster a critical mindset as well.

"If you take guns away from little boys playing, they'll just use a stick, or their fingers."

Not if they haven't been pre-conditioned to believe that guns are desirable. My son never had guns to play with and I never saw him pretending to shoot, not to say he mightn't have at times in a larger group where the play was instigated by others. He has never shown interest in the defence forces or in violent video games. Shooting to kill just doesn't enter his world on any level. This to my mind is largely because he wasn't influenced in his formative and more susceptible earlier years to believe that guns are good. Nor was he ever allowed to become de-sensitised to the effects of violence as so many young boys these days are.

Shielding boys from guns is a walk in the park compared to the challenge of equipping girls to ignore the drumbeat message, which permeates all advertising and commercial media, that they have to be thin and sexy to be of value as a person.
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:02:00 PM
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Why not rant about girls' and women's magazines, or the rubbish that is commercial television? There is plenty of fodder and Melinda need not always restrict her rants to sex alone.

The greatest majority of parents do not neglect their children, they set boundaries and they gently steer their charges towards a safe, healthy and meaningful life. As well, children are much more sensible and discriminating than many who would 'help' them are inclined to believe.

Anyhow as usual there is no need to check outside because the sky is definitely not falling. In fact, things are a whole lot better for children than when my mother was a twelve year old student. Back then many girls like her were subjected to the care, censorship and moral guidance of Catholic nuns and some still bear the physical and mental scars.

There are always those who claim they can save us from God-awful ends, especially where we are willing to suspend our judgement and allow them to foist their own morality on us. There was plenty of that back in my mother's day and than goodness those days have largely gone.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:24:54 PM
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I have to agree wholeheartedly with the author and with Bronwyn's inciteful comments.

We can fool ourselves that these sites do not have influence on our children and that children are savvy enough to make the same distinctions as adults but sadly they can't.

The age of reason does not begin until well after the age of five and influences don't just come from inside the family home unless we overly cosset our children which is also undesirable. Parents need assistance and support from the outside world to do their jobs as well as they can in raising happy and secure individuals. As adults we are all responsible for the welfare of children.

We can pretend all we like that the media (electronic or print) is only a reflection of society and in some ways it is, but it has the power to greatly influence and shape societies as well. If it didn't, corporations wouldn't be spending millions in advertising and marketing.

I shudder in disbelief at the nonsense dished out in magazines and on sites like this at times and despair at the continual pursuit of profit over the health and wellbeing of children.

It is difficult to know how to approach these sorts of issues without offending some sense of civil liberty or freedom but sometimes you have to ask at what cost and whose freedom?
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:33:58 PM
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People, it isn't real.

It is the internet.

There aren't 553,842 "registered bimbos", there are 550,000 registrations from an online sweatshop in Chennai, and 3,842 deluded young people who - from the input I saw, have no idea what it is all about anyway.

There are numerous "what's a challenge?" and "how do you get to level 3?" questions interspersed by obvious marketing "plants" from the same Chennai sweatshop, who put in stuff like "I love the new clothes! It makes it more like you really are shopping!"

It's sad. It's pointless. It's the internet at its most vacuous.

But it isn't dangerous. Kids are far too smart.

Incidentally, I doubt that the player "in the lead" is in fact a 10-year-old girl. Far more likely is that it is a 55 year-old male with three teeth, wearing luminous socks and dribbling gently in a double-wide trailer in Buckshaw, Arkansas.

On the internet, no-one knows you're a dog.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:47:32 PM
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Incidentally, Boaz...

>>I suspect that if we dug a bit, we would find that somewhere in the dark recesses of it's management, are those with vested financial interests in the values they are promoting. Jewellery, food, fashion accessories magazines etc.<<

If you dug a bit, and then used Google Maps, you would find that the registered address of this business is an innocuous semi-detached house in suburban Tottenham, North London. A couple of kids have come up with a neat idea to make a few bob, that's all.

It's the internet, people.

The thing is, peer pressure works against this kind of site, not for it. Kids really aren't that stupid. They know "dumb" when they see it, guarantee it, especially on the internet.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:58:16 PM
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I'm currently working on a Melinda Tankard Reist game* for tweens. When you sign up, you form a group, and then you all get to "counsel" another young girl who has wound up pregnant by telling her abortion is an evil sin. If she has the baby and gives it up for adoption you get bonus points. The higher levels are kind of a competition, where you have to find hidden sexual and demeaning imagery in innocuous advertisments. Bonus points if you can convince the ASB to ban them! When you win, you get to go to heaven and live with the angels, who are kind of like princesses, and ban porn for eternity. It's tops fun!

* Yes, I know my MRT obsession is getting a bit out of control. Honestly, I'm working on it.
Posted by Vanilla, Thursday, 8 May 2008 5:12:26 PM
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Bronwyn,

After reading your comments about how you pre-conditioned your boy (your daughter too?) against guns I am wondering why you didn't choose a lobotomy for him to prevent his masculine predisposition towards violence. That would have been the feminist way, yes?

It is foolish, dictatorial, but nonetheless well-meaning people like you who in England forced the English Olympic shooting team to live and practice in France to represent their mother country.

A risk averse parent who would ban, conceal or otherwise deter her children from coming into contact with anything she doesn't like is actually doing her charges a disservice through raising them as limited, bigoted adults who are not confident or resilient enough to rely on their own judgement, learning and experience to guide them in the world.

Can I suggest that a much better approach would have been for you to take your son and your daughter to one the rifle range familiarisation days (the SSAA holds them often and cheaply) to have them trained along with you in firearm safety?

There you will meet the people you can be sure are of the finest character in the community - they have to be to get a licence - and there are doctors, lawyers, builders, clergy, police, cricketers, retired or at work you name it. To these men and women (no gender discrimination), firearms are a sport which develops skills such as concentration and there is also companionship and social activities. None see their firearms as 'weapons' as you through your ignorance plainly do.

You should be aware that a very young girl shooter is soon to represent Australia in the world championships in Italy. Girls can do anything, remember? She follows in the footsteps of women like Annie Elliott from Brisbane, also a world champion (so is her husband and the sport is a shared passion).

What I am saying is that to be resilient and resourceful in the world, your children will be empowered by knowledge and learning. Your ecternally imposed shielding, censorship and scolding is unhelpful in the extreme.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 8 May 2008 5:13:42 PM
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Damned if ya do, damned if ya dont.

Ban all this stuff and get ready to be accussed of sexually repressing the grrrls whilst letting the boyz run wild.
Posted by trade215, Thursday, 8 May 2008 5:16:33 PM
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Vanilla not a bad idea.

There has been a huge debate as to whether TV influenced children or not. One side argues that it doesn't and the other is that it does.

I side with the side that does beleive that TV influences children, however it is not only children that are influenced by the media, adults are as well. Also what we read, the magazines that are bought all do influence peoples opinions and ideas. Sometimes accurately, sometimes it is misinformation.

From my understanding of gender developement girls are more interested in relationships dynamics and boys in "grand theft auto".

Some girls will become bimbos who never played the game, just as some boys will act out grand theft auto who never played the game.

It is not that these games should be banned, but when is it safe for children to be exposed to them?
Posted by JamesH, Thursday, 8 May 2008 10:54:32 PM
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61,

Your emotive dribble adds nothing to the argument. Prove a direct causation of an online video game and Anorexia and I might be swayed. Mental illness is infinitely more complex than you are making it out to be. Should we ban adverts for anti-bacterial soap and cleaning products because people with OCD are obsessed with hygiene?

Bronwyn,

'de-sensitised to the effects of violence as so many young boys these days are'
I don't think they are. Maybe de-sensitised to fictional depictions of violence, but not real violence. Anyone who can sit through the rape scene in Irreversible without feeling upset probably is de-sensitised, but that's one of the few realistic portrayals of real violence I have seen.

' that they have to be thin and sexy to be of value as a person.'
That's rubbish. They have to be thin and sexy to be sexually attractive.

'Anorexia and skin cancer, both the end result of behaviours encouraged in this game, ...repairing the damage from leaking implants and plastic surgery '

That's such a stretch. These are totally separate issues that are better dealt with directly. Banning a video game is the most ineffective measure I can imagine for dealing with these.

'profit from the misery they are knowingly creating '
People are competitive in all aspects of life. Are private schools creating misery by advertising their supposed superiority in achieving a better education? Lots of parents massively sacrifice their standard of living because they are sold the dream of climbing up the status ladder. Life is competitive, and everyone doesn't get a prize no matter how much you lie to your kids that they do. Some people aren't beautiful, some aren't smart, some aren't athletic. Are we to ban all marketing that might make someone feel they might need something they do not?

JamesH,

'It is not that these games should be banned, but when is it safe for children to be exposed to them?'
Exactly. And you know what, it's up to individual parents to decide, as they know their own values and their own children.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Friday, 9 May 2008 10:17:33 AM
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US “Regardless, media is not all powerful. Children have parents, and peers, and eyes and brains.”

Agree Tankard-Reiss seems obsessed with the way other people bring up their children. I wonder if she has kids herself? I wonder if she understands parenting?
I wonder if she would appreciate some obsessed opinion holder telling her how she should bring up her kids?

“On a tangent, why is it more acceptable/moral to celebrate intellect than beauty? Both are genetic.”

Exactly, the woman in my life is not just brainy, she is good looking too.
No point in wasting time on an dumb, ugly one, there are plenty of lonely blokes around to hold their hands and some are even single.

61 “Usual is obviously ignorant as well as callous.”

I have read many of US posts, he is neither ignorant or callous but yours is the usual reaction of the ignorant .

You vilify the character of people you disagree with based on your own stupidity.

I invite you to have a shot at me too, I am used to it but manners require me to forewarn you, I am inclined to comment back, with a vengence.

Ah Bronwyn “But it's time to acknowledge that many parents for many different reasons are neglecting that responsibility.”

If they are, prosecute them but do not presume to make blanket condemnations of how parents, collectively discharge their responsibilities.

I am sure you would not like it if the state came along and arbitrarily decided you were negligent and intervened between you and yours.

Vanilla I like your game, any place in there for a horny-devil?

My daughters and I made up a game for the car, the first to spot the road kill, one point at side of road, two point in the middle and double the points if you could identify the critter.

We called it “Flat Cat and Friends” and they loved it.

One of my daughters teachers criticised her reading choices when she was 14, she enjoyed reading “Dolly”.

My reply was simple, I would rather she read anything than nothing.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 9 May 2008 1:29:49 PM
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Some posters may find this hard to believe but advertising works, propaganda works, manipulation works. In an ideal world people would not be manipulated and would take respomsibility for their own action. But this is not an ideal world.

We are all influenced by ads, TV shows Movies, magazines etc. Usual Suspect, you are probably not willing to admit it or you may not even be aware of it but I am sure that not even you are immune to the manipulation of media and advertisers.

They know it works. That is why they do it. Advertising companies continually manipulate us in ways that we are not even aware of. even the colour and sound of their ads has been carfully chosen to sub consciously impact the viewer.

Should advertisers, game creators, TV and Movie producers by held respocible? Of course they should. They know exactly what they are doing. They are deliberatly moulding and manipulating people to buy their product and follow their agenda.

Today young girls are curious enough to role play sexuality, plastic surgery etc. What will it be tomorrow.

Dont be so naive as to think it is all harmless fun.
Posted by proverbs, Friday, 9 May 2008 4:08:46 PM
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proverbs,

I said media is not ALL powerful, no that it has no effect.

'They are deliberatly moulding and manipulating people to buy their product and follow their agenda.
'
Of course, and why not? Or do you think we can ban all advertising? How do you propose to do this, or else who decides what is TOO manipulative. it's impossible to police. Buyer beware, and increasingly children brought up in this media saturated world are better equipped than the old folks who give away their bank details on the internet.

Manipulated or not, it's still your decision in the final washup. You could educate yourself more, work on you character flaws like vanity or comfort eating. We should aim to make the individual responsible for their own actions, not searching every media for excuses for our own frailties.

'Today young girls are curious enough to role play sexuality, plastic surgery etc. What will it be tomorrow.'

Such things are part of life and are exist in many books as well. Should we ban all the books too? Or should we, as I have said leave it up to individual parents to decide, as they know their own values and their own children.
Posted by Whitty, Friday, 9 May 2008 4:39:30 PM
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What is even more tragic (or comic) is the recently divorced or those just recently handed "...divorce-papers..." 40 + Women
(& Men), who after 25 yrs or so of unholy deadlock seem to think it is ok to screw anything with a pulse to 'get over' their rotten ex spouses.

25 yrs ago, blokes who did it were labelled an *SSHOLE - so why is this any different today because she does it now in the name of 'liberation' or 'freedom' - whatever the reasons?

Does this then give creedence to the same lousy attitude being foisted & transported upon and into the mindset of the children from the marriage?...yes greed is good...consume, destroy, rapaciously get even... don't consider the emotional consequences of those you 'screw' - but unfortunately the chooks will come home to roost eventually.

Hallelu - Jah for that!

Now we see these bimbo-like 14 to 44 yr olds... very dangerous indeed, being led onto PC's and lap tops by the same crappy attitudes to relationships - is this some quasi-New Age revisitation of the Free Lovin' Sixties with even more dangerous substances with which to ingest?

Look after your kids first.. It is your prime directive!
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Saturday, 10 May 2008 6:17:14 AM
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proverbs,

the rub is that one's reactions are are one's reactions, in essence, internally derived. We can all have completely different reactions to the same stimulus, in which case its not the stimulus its the observer. Responsibility or accountability dont enter into it. Who knows what experiences and notions have entered a persons consciousness and how these colour reaction. Its impossible to put these things down to a certain set of links. All one can really do, is be aware of oneself and their reactions as they occur. And to learn how to temper ones reactions. Eventually the things that used to push your buttons, dont have that effect anymore.

One is capable of independent, rational thought. At the very least informing oneself, on one's own terms as to how they perceive themselves.

Throwing oneself to the mercy of such stimuli (propganda and influence) is the basis upon which propaganda functions. Once you take a stand and refuse to surrender, the intended effect of the propaganda dies a natural death, in one's mind.

In short, the propagandist rely on people internalising their nonsense. Without it, they have no influence.
Posted by trade215, Saturday, 10 May 2008 3:37:52 PM
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The thing is that by the time they get the doll or game it is too late. They already seem to have developed the mind set that says that this behaviour is appropriate and okay.

Parents need to rebel and fight against the onslaught of visual pollution that our children are exposed to today as young people are becoming confused as to what should be done where, when and what is okay. The standards are too low. We need to reintroduce manners and morals so that our children develop self respect.
Posted by Jolanda, Saturday, 10 May 2008 9:17:10 PM
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Cornflower

“A risk averse parent who would ban, conceal or otherwise deter her children from coming into contact with anything she doesn't like is actually doing her charges a disservice through raising them as limited, bigoted adults who are not confident or resilient enough to rely on their own judgement, learning and experience to guide them in the world… Your eternally imposed shielding, censorship and scolding is unhelpful in the extreme.”

Calm down! Talk about over-reacting. I didn’t buy toy guns for my son, that’s all. He wasn’t deprived and he certainly wasn’t shielded, censored or scolded. He never asked for guns or showed any interest in them. They were a complete non-issue. None of anything you have said here applies to myself or my children. It is completely wide of the mark and quite offensive really.

You obviously have some sort of gun fetish, but for most people guns don't really rate that highly in their everyday lives. I doubt many, apart from yourself, would consider a visit to a rifle range an essential part of their child's education.

Col Rouge

"My daughters and I made up a game for the car, the first to spot the road kill, one point at side of road, two point in the middle and double the points if you could identify the critter. We called it “Flat Cat and Friends” and they loved it."

I wonder what sort of lessons your daughters drew from this sick little game.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 10 May 2008 11:10:48 PM
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Bronwyn

Did you always shout your son down like that too?

You may equivocate now but among other things this is what you said:

"Shielding boys from guns is a walk in the park compared to the challenge of equipping girls to ignore the drumbeat message"

and now

"Calm down! Talk about over-reacting. I didn’t buy toy guns for my son, that’s all. He wasn’t deprived and he certainly wasn’t shielded, censored or scolded."

But why force your morality onto your son in the first place? Educate them, provide safe learning experiences and trust them to make up their own minds and find their own true North.

For heavens sakes, over four hundred children die every year in backyard swimming pools but I bet you don't force your son to avert his eyes when passing one and you wouldn't pretend they don't exist. Instead, a caring parent would arrange swimming lessons.

There would not have been anywhere near the number of children injured by firearms since federation as there are drowned yearly in parents' pools.

Yours would have been a rare boy indeed if as you say he never, ever displayed any interest in guns: "He never asked for guns or showed any interest in them. They were a complete non-issue." But then again maybe he quickly learned what were "no talk, no go" subjects in your household.

Your spiteful comment that I must have a "gun fetish" because I have competed in rifle shooting teams (many women do and Australia usually has strong teams) was neither correct nor deserved, however it did speak volumes about your complete ignorance of the sport and where you are coming from in life.
Posted by Cornflower, Sunday, 11 May 2008 12:17:46 AM
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more feminist rubbish. didn't bother reading the article, except the synopsis.
Posted by Steel, Sunday, 11 May 2008 1:04:03 AM
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Bronwyn ““Flat Cat and Friends” and they loved it."

I wonder what sort of lessons your daughters drew from this sick little game.”

Some simple arithmetic
A sense of humour
A sense that the world is a place in which death is always around us.
A sense that life is not necessarily fair, especially if you are a kangaroo happily bouncing across the Hume highway to get a drink.
A sense that talking about things like death was not something to fear.
The ability to talk about issues with their parents, rather than obsess about them alone.

A lot of good things came from that game Bronwyn, far more than the perverse interest generated from them being told to look away from the nasty dead cat on the road.

The best thing is they have grown into fabulous adults, who will make wonderful parents and will doubtless teach “Flat Cat and friends” to their own children and recall how they played it with me in the car on long journeys.
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 11 May 2008 11:38:46 AM
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Re 'Flat Cat',

Got to wholeheartedly agree with Col there. A lot of great things to teach your children in that list.

I think the posts of Bronwyn and Col show that the onus is on Parents alone to decide what material is suitable for their children, and that it's a very personal choice.

We should leave it up to individual parents to decide, as they know their own values and they know their own children.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Monday, 12 May 2008 8:43:19 AM
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Usual suspect,
Have you ever tried to take a girl’s magazine (which normally contain nothing of any positive value) away from a teenage girl.

I would recommend wearing ear muffs or some type of hearing protection if you do try.
Posted by HRS, Monday, 12 May 2008 10:35:21 AM
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Girls are sexualised hormonally.

Girls who miss out on their NATURAL father suffer from premature sexualisation. Repeated research has proven that girls without their natural fathers (especially girls who have a 'step-father') are at risk.

We know about family breakdown in our communities, where a child's NATURAL FATHER is living elsewhere or known...

Repeated research shows this has a HORMONAL EFFECT of fathernessness on girls...

Natural fathers protect their girls. Repeated research has proven that girls without their natural fathers (especially girls who have a 'step-father') are at risk.

They are three times more likely to become pregnant as teenagers and suffer from premature puberty. Girls who grow up with a man who is not their Natural father are likely to reach puberty in primary school!

Ther are also three to 5 time more likely to become pregnant as teenagers, have more sexual partners and related ill-effects like STD infections.

This is AFTER controlling for income, race, and other likely causes. Studies have considered Maori, Hispanic, European, Afro-american. It's not an effect of Race, not Class nor poveerty, it's FATHERLESSNESS.

Children NEED their NATURAL PARENTS.

ABC TV http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s958787.htm
New York Times: http://partners.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20001224mag-puberty.html
New Scientist http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16422062.400-daddys-girl.html
Citations http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-7687.2004.00380.x
Citations http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-8624.00569

PartTimeParent@pobox.com
www.Fahters4Equality-Australia.org
Posted by partTimeParent, Monday, 12 May 2008 10:52:57 AM
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HRS: << Have you ever tried to take a girl’s magazine... away from a teenage girl. >>

Why don't you just buy your own?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 12 May 2008 10:56:45 AM
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Well, this thread of posts has been rather interesting reading indeed. There are many things I agree with, and obviously like all of you, some that I don't.

I agree with Melinda's article, and I gree with the fact that parents should take responsibility for parenting their children, instead of blamming the media. I also agree that the media/internet etc.. do have to take responsibility also - we are all part of society and all contribute to it in different ways. As a parent and as teacher I have seen some great parenting and I have also seen some children who have been harmed badly because of the lack of responsible parenting and allowing children to 'do as they please' or even encourage, in my opinion, viewing of films & TV and internet content beyond a child's years. (And in lots of cases things damamging to adults also - yes I also believe 'what goes in comes out' when it comes to individual viewing choices).

It is obvious that we live in a world where the is such wide-spread opinion and there are going to be many who try to convince many that their opinion is the correct one - we all want to be right, of course!

I have found it quite amusing (& frustrating) that the posts in this thread are saying 'Parents are responsibile for parenting' in one breath and in another condemn parents for shielding the children from harmful 'stuff' that they believe their children shouldn't be exposed to (perhaps until a particular age).

continued next post.....
Posted by Jadele, Monday, 12 May 2008 11:35:01 AM
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The struggle is to find the balance. Some people think it's good for their children to be exposed to the stuff Melinda has been speaking of - in order to 'educate' and 'make resistant' their children, while others believe the opposite.

My choice is to shield my children from as much harm as possible - there is enough in the world and within each individual to challenge a person's worth without having extra exposure to question that even more. I am saddened when I know people choose to allow children to view movies rated beyond their years, or allow them to read magazines that encourage girls to be unhappy with their beauty because they don't fit the mould or boys to think they are not masculine because they cry.

It is risky, it makes you vulnerable to have a heart and to be honest & open with yourself & others, and to love. But that's what this whole thing is about - we all want to be 'top of the heap', the person in the right not the wrong; the one who looks the best, or knows the most or is the best athlete. The fact is most of us will never get there! Instead, the majority of us continue arguing about all the above, and pulling others down (in whatever ways we can - verbally physically, sexually etc) instead of accepting each other, helping each other, and living life.
Posted by Jadele, Monday, 12 May 2008 11:35:54 AM
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Part Time Parent
An interesting theory regards girls maturing earlier is that it could be because of the large amounts of perfumes that women are now wearing, which normaly contain a range of female hormones such as estrogens.

These perfumes are being worn in great amounts compared to earlier times (when about the only toiletry product was Sunlight soap), and the amounts of these perfumes now in the environment is indirectly making girls mature earlier, and could be leading to impotency in males.

There have also been studies showing that teenage girls are up to 8 times more likely to become pregnant without their natural father being in the house.

I also don’t think natural fathers want their daughter to dress up like street walkers, read senseless girl magazines, or spend all their pocket money on cosmetics and perfumes.
Posted by HRS, Monday, 12 May 2008 12:19:19 PM
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HRS I think that girls are maturing earlier because of their exposure to sexual images, education and scenes. The human body adapts. Children are not supposed to be saturated with sex during the early years. Their bodies are developing too fast as it is becoming confused by what they experience and see. Just like early Spring confuses flowers, early exposure to sex confuses humans.

We need to limit the sexual focus in society and turn our children's focus and attention on other things

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better.
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 12 May 2008 9:47:41 PM
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I don't see the problem with children maturing earlier. As long as they are educated in line with what they are experiencing where is the problem? I don't think adults being uncomfortable with their children's sexuality like it seems a lot of posters on this forum are is a good thing for children either.

If anything, when we shield kids from the realities of life that they can sense and see right in fornt of them, they see adults as liers and rightly so. I know I did. I don't see why parents with this attitude think its the responsiblity of the whole world to fit in with this fantasy land they are creating for their children.

Not everyone gets a prize, the world is competetive, people discriminate based on physical appearance, people die, people are violent, people have sex.

Parents know thier children and how developed they are and have the opportunity to educate them and give them the resources to deal with the real world, so why do they just live in a fantasy land instead. It's going to be a lot more shocking when your child finds out the truth, and has the double whammy of knowing you haven't been honest with them all this time.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 9:13:14 AM
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I see a problem with children maturing earlier...I see the problem because the problems are happening today. Sexual abuse of children, physical abuse of children, neglect of children, bullying of children - just to name a few. When children are sexualized earlier it creates an excuse and a shield for pedophiles because they justify it to each other as they say that the children are ready and they want it. When girls are dressing and acting so cheaply and provocative in the street the general public all nod their head and agree. Early sexual exposure also grooms our children to experiment and accept certain negative behaviour as children learn by example.

My children know all about sex and they understand it - as the do live in the real world but they are modern and mature and they want something better for the future. Without missing out on the fun.

I would like to see more moderation. We are functioning too much at the extremes.

Children are going to push the boundaries, they always will try to push the boundaries. If we have no boundaries for our children to push they will get more brazen and out of control searching to achieve that goal.

Surely we should be teaching our children bigger and better things.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 9:52:35 AM
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Jolanda,

'Sexual abuse of children, physical abuse of children, neglect of children, bullying of children - just to name a few.'

All have been around for a very long time. Do you hope to eradicate these by more modest clothing or banning video games?

'When children are sexualized earlier it creates an excuse and a shield for pedophiles because they justify it to each other as they say that the children are ready and they want it'

Pedophiles have always said that, and will use anything to justify what they do. Most pedophiles abuse family members, and I'm not convinced there has been an increase in pedophilia, though maybe the reporting of it.

'Early sexual exposure also grooms our children to experiment and accept certain negative behaviour as children learn by example.'

What negative behaviour? Children learn most by the example set by the parents. Children have always experimented.

'Children are going to push the boundaries'

Of course. I'm not against setting boundaries. I leave this for the parents to choose their own boundaries, not ask the government to set them by imposing their particular morality on the populace.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 10:36:58 AM
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Jadele “The struggle is to find the balance.”

No struggle. If you are sure to what is right and necessary and in the best interests of your children.

As US wrote “We should leave it up to individual parents to decide, as they know their own values and they know their own children.”

Some would suggest being Roman Catholic is good but I am not RC and so my children have not been brought up RC but I do not think they suffer for that.

Jolanda said “I see a problem with children maturing earlier... Sexual abuse of children, physical abuse of children, neglect of children, bullying of children. . . ”

I would like to know why “children maturing earlier” is a contributory cause to their
Sexual abuse
Physical abuse
Neglect or
Bullying

Whilst the above are problems, they are nothing new and have been with us since the dawn of time, I can see no relationship between them and rates of maturity.

I likewise fail to see how the development of the victim in any way contributes to the actions of a predatory pedophile.

The actions of the aggressor are based on selfishness and a “depraved indifference” to the rights of the victim.
That would suggest the developmental maturity of the victim is irrelevant to that “indifference”.

“I would like to see more moderation. We are functioning too much at the extremes.”

Is that “moderation”, enforced with extremist (draconian censorship) legislation?

“Children are going to push the boundaries, they always will try to push the boundaries.”

I did too. When it was my turn as Dad, I held the line.

One of the roles of a parent is to set and enforce the boundaries needed for our children to push against. A failed parent (who lets the child’s push prevail) will produce selfish children. A parent who holds the line will, more likely, produce children who accept accountability for their actions and respect the rights of others when they leave, to face the world as adults.

( I seem to repeatedly agree with US posts : - )
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 11:00:32 AM
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Col Rouge
I am sure of what I believe to be good & right for my children. I also am sure of what I believe to be good for me. I believe there are good & appropriate behaviours, television viewing, dress standards for children and adults in front of children. It doesn't mean that the struggle to find a good balance is irradicated. You seem to be assuming the answers are black & white. Life is complicated, complex and often full of surprises.

I don't believe that children maturing earlier contribute to acts of sexual abuse etc, but I do believe that the ways they are being taught & modelled to dress (or are even dressed because "it's cute"), put on make up, behave all contribute to the sexualisation of children & the abuse of children. Again, we all have different opinions on what is 'appropriate' and what is not.

Col Rouge - I like your last para.....
"One of the roles of a parent is to set and enforce the boundaries needed for our children to push against. A failed parent (who lets the child’s push prevail) will produce selfish children. A parent who holds the line will, more likely, produce children who accept accountability for their actions and respect the rights of others when they leave, to face the world as adults." Both a mother & father is needed in a child's life - and that means an active mother & father who are good role models and personally input into their lives. Absent fathers (for whatever reason - work, disinterest in children, other commitments, divorce) have severe repercussions on the emotional well being of children. Children who have been abused & the parents have not listened or pretended it hasn't happend are in essence 'abandoned' & betrayed by their parents - those children generally go on to be perpetrators themselves.

continued next post......
Posted by Jadele, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 6:44:35 PM
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We need to protect children - teaching them good responsible behaviours, ways to dress & act, so they do not find themselves in positions where they are more suseptable to things such as 'date rapes' and being looked at or touched in sexual ways because of inappropriate dress etc, especially when in situations where you wouldn't think twice about anything happening. Really this type of thing is just "fueling the fire" - it's like putting a glass of wine in an alcoholic's hand. Parents have a responsibility to protect their children. We all don't have the same ideas of what this means, and unfortunately we see the results of this.

We live in a depraved fallen world. Bad things happen & unfortunately we are never going to be able to 'fix' it. However, we can do as much as we can to prevent such terrible atrosities. In just about any case I can think of prevention is so so so much better than dealing with the aftermath of sexual, physical, emotional or psychological abuse.

I'd be interested to know if any of our posters have been the victims of any sort of abuse or have known people in any abusive situations. I'm not asking you to reveal anything or break any confidences but I'm sure if anyone could have prevented anything from happening it would be much better than having to deal with the pain from any such event.

I also want to mention at this point - the victim is always the victim!
Posted by Jadele, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 6:45:31 PM
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Hi Jadele. I wholly agree with your view is children need both parents and we are their role models. I have daughters and think a father is essential to their upbringing (just as a mother is essential for boys) and both parents the best option for either. Despite my separation and divorce when the girls were a lot younger, I bought a house between the old matrimonial home and the girls school and regardless of the limits of the “weekend schedule”, saw them most days.

My girls have flown the nest and successfully set up one by herself and one with her long term partner who she is about to marry. Both are responsible, caring, respectful of others and possess many other good qualities which fill me with pride.

“We live in a depraved fallen world. Bad things happen & unfortunately we are never going to be able to 'fix' it.”

The world does not care, it has no emotional attachment to anyone. It is a dangerous and difficult place but I do not believe a “depraved fallen” place. It is just indifferent. And you are right, no one will ever “fix” it. All we can do is instill a sense of caution in our kids and at least a sense of respect for others.

“Abuse” was never a part of my experience, either as a child or adult. i do know, however, It messes kids up, totally destroys their faith and self worth and can lead to a lot of adult problems, not least perpetuating the abuse. The only solution would be to disqualify some folk from having kids but the consequences of such a policy would produce more problems than it would solve. I am at a loss for any solution, certainly “government” doing anything has never and will never work.
Posted by Col Rouge, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 1:01:47 AM
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http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23694087-5005941,00.html
Posted by Jolanda, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 7:43:40 AM
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Once again, must add a little sympathy, in contrast to others, since I beleive that what Tankard Reist and some of the conservative contributors are talking about here is something akin to what lefties and feminists would refer to or describe as "reification" or "commodification". That is, the social or cultural conditioning; brainwashing if you like, by a society of its members, to operate subordinate to pol economic or sexual economy requesites, the examination of which is kept by the lunatics running the asylum outside of scrutiny from the rest of us.
Some employ the term "inscription", to describe this Stepford Wives or Orwellian type of erosion of this notion of the autonomy of the supposed free standing or self sufficient conscious individual. It originates with Freud's critique of psychic structure and operation that includes the unconscious, and elements of "soft" Euroleft thought.
Whilst Freud's examples, involving female hysteria in particular, have been superceded, the underlying concept of an immanent and decodable psychic base and superstructure (if you like) itself remains a valid notion for commencement of social investigation.
And looking around at the behaviours and pathologies ongoingly evident anywhere in this crazy world, I, too, worry about the "processing" of individuals and the consequences apparent thereof.
Posted by paul walter, Thursday, 15 May 2008 10:08:53 PM
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Paul can you spell Gobbledegook?
Posted by Usual Suspect, Friday, 16 May 2008 11:21:40 AM
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Here you go Usual Suspect....perhaps you can understand this a little better!

From Paul, modified by Jadele

Once again, I must add a little sympathy, in contrast to others.

I believe that what Tankard Reist and some of the conservative contributors are talking about here is something akin to what lefties and feminists would describe as the social or cultural conditioning by a society of its members to live subordinate to pol economic or sexual economic conditions, and the examination of which is kept by the lunatics running the asylum outside of scrutiny from the rest of us.

Some employ the term "inscription", to describe this Stepford Wives or Orwellian type of erosion of this notion of the autonomy of the supposed free standing or self sufficient conscious individual. It originates with Freud's critique of psychic structure and operation that includes the unconscious, and elements of "soft" Euro left thought.

While some of Freud's examples have been superseded, the underlying concept of an immanent and decipherable psychic base and superstructure (if you like) itself remains a valid notion for commencement of social investigation ie this “conditioning” by the media or corporations (the “superstructure") needs to be examined/explored, questions asked etc – exactly what Tankard Reist and others are doing.

And looking around at the behaviours and pathologies continuously evident anywhere in this crazy world, I, too, worry about the "processing" of individuals (ie the things Tankard Reist is talking about) and the apparent consequences as a result.
Posted by Jadele, Friday, 16 May 2008 12:16:52 PM
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Vanilla,

'I'm currently working on a Melinda Tankard Reist game* for tweens. When you sign up, you form a group, and then you all get to "counsel" another young girl who has wound up pregnant by telling her abortion is an evil sin. If she has the baby and gives it up for adoption you get bonus points. The higher levels are kind of a competition, where you have to find hidden sexual and demeaning imagery in innocuous advertisments. Bonus points if you can convince the ASB to ban them! When you win, you get to go to heaven and live with the angels, who are kind of like princesses, and ban porn for eternity. It's tops fun!
'

I just have to stand up and applaud that. Post of the year my girl. Like Bart Simpson once said ...

That's funny for soo many reasons!
Posted by Usual Suspect, Friday, 16 May 2008 3:48:40 PM
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Jadele, U.S's response reminds me it is not just females who have had the wit conditioned out of them in our complex modern society.
Don't you yearn for the days when genuine ignorance could be acquired only through something as drastic as a drunken car prang or frontal lobe lobotomisation?
Posted by paul walter, Friday, 16 May 2008 9:55:19 PM
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BTW, US etc, I also understand where you are coming from.
The term Cornflower used; "risk averse parent" ( nervous nellie? )and the responses from people concerned with being roped into life in a more repressive society for reasons far more sinister than merely to assuage the arguably at times irrational fears of above, are quite obvious.
Particularly when exploitative politicians exploit unconscious or irrational fears in search of a means to power, as happened with the Hansonist phenomena, and big business uses money better employed on say, alleviating poverty, on whole batteries of psychologists, behavioural scietists etc, to crack the mental codes of humanity in order to condition them "from the inside"( why else do they spend such money? ).
So, one type of censorship can be a stalking-horse for censorship in general. In a resulting intellectual vaccuum, replete of ignorance and fear, older more medieval ideas can thrive unchallenged, making control for those with power easier.
Tankard Reist herself may even be pray to irrational fears and drives, like the rest of us. And I accept she may not be being entirely frank in the disclosure of some of her (obscured?) more long term agendas for reasons that relate to her own particular conditioning.
But it is also fair enough to consider a paradoxical, unsuspected libertarian element emerging. Like many of her opponents, after all, she suggests it's time corporate elements got their claws out of the minds and brains of kids not old enough to screen the inputs from them into these developing minds, inadvertantly or even deliberately causing unconscious behaviours that might cause them harm later in life.
For simply the satisfaction of an arguably irrational greed impulse in a few shallow, unconscious adults, we should possibly psychically circumcise/castrate our kids ( after all, we don't really know all the consequences of f-cking with their minds is, yet ), is evidence of something very disturbing in our own community psyche that we would not hesitate to condemn in others, like mid easterners, say.
Posted by paul walter, Saturday, 17 May 2008 2:42:45 AM
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paul walter,

Big words don't make you sound intelligent if you don't know how to put them into a sentence.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Monday, 19 May 2008 10:38:42 AM
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