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The Forum > Article Comments > The headscarf is no innocent piece of clothing > Comments

The headscarf is no innocent piece of clothing : Comments

By Kees Bakhuijzen, published 18/4/2008

Do Muslim women wear the veil out of their own free will or are they forced to wear it?

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goodthief, methinks thou dost protest too much.

>>Atheism is still a belief, even if atheists don’t agree about anything else<<

Only in the most abstract sense.

To twist the statement "I believe there is no god" into being a belief of its own is to stretch the language a step too far.

"Believe" in this sentence is a synonym of "I consider", "I think" or "I have come to the conclusion that..."

In the context of religion, "believe" takes on a different dimension, in that it sets aside the cognitive process of "I think" in favour of "I have faith, without the need for evidence"

>>once atheism gets caught up in an ideology, it can be just as dangerous as anything else: we all saw that ditching God didn’t make ideology safe.<<

Interesting angle. Atheism is "just as dangerous" as religion, eh? Which might also be phrased "religion is as dangerous as atheism", proving nothing more than that it is we humans that are dangerous.

>>Why not respond to the real point, which is that (arguably) what France is doing is to impose atheism (whether it’s a “religion” or not)<<

It is not possible to "impose" atheism, and this clearly is not what the French are trying to do. You are (probably deliberately) confusing this with the contortions of a secular State attempting to exclude religion from its agenda. Not easy, given how sensitive religions are about each others' symbols.

>>I wonder if France would ban an atheist symbol, if one emerged<<

Now you're being silly, aren't you?

Atheists do not need symbols, since (once again) we are talking about an absence, not a presence, of belief.

Also, very few atheists believe that religion should be banned, since it is used by so many as an emotional crutch.

But we all believe that religion should not be used as a weapon, or a motivator to hatred, or as a tool for the repression of ideas.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 9:02:08 AM
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If atheism is a belief then black is a colour.
Posted by Usual Suspect, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 12:22:32 PM
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Pericles,

You seem to be saying that someone who says “I don’t believe in God” is not uttering a belief. I don’t know how to respond to this. I think this is agnosticism. I’d say atheists say “I believe there is no God”. This is a belief, even though it’s a belief which, on its own, doesn’t really go anywhere. (This latter point is not a criticism of atheism or atheists: I imagine they all realise they need some positive, dynamic beliefs in order to live at all competently.)

The evidence point is simply about the path to the belief. Most atheists are empiricists, so they only recognise or acknowledge or respect the evidence path. People like me also respect our own faith as a legitimate basis for belief. Each has a belief, but they have a different reason or basis for it. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I believe in God. I have more evidence for the former, but they are both beliefs.

Yes, I agree, religion and atheists are equally dangerous. Because human beings are dangerous. But, it’s worth recognising because so many atheists seem to think only religion and “religionists” are dangerous.

I’m not saying France is imposing atheism. I’m saying that stickman went off-road. I think that, if it is possible to impose a belief at all (rather than impose some external form of behaviour that signifies a belief) then it is possible to impose atheism. I think people like Dawkins would impose atheism if they could.

Most people like symbols, but my reference to an atheist symbol was just hypothetical, and then speculative.

Hatred is awful. No-one should encourage any hatred by one human for another. It’s not just a religious problem, though. Dawkins et al strike me as bonnie haters. Some atheists I’ve met are at least as contemptuous of my religious beliefs as any person I’ve met from a different religion. I willingly admit all of religion’s faults.

Pax,
Posted by goodthief, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 7:18:27 PM
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It is interesting to note that some writers will involve themselves in responses to their views when these are published on OLO.

That is very much appreciated. Thank-you....to them.
I only wish that more authors of published work here would do the same thing.

I note though, that THIS author chose to respond to only one person;- Shakira Hussein who was mentioned in his piece.

Your responses run to 17 pages KB;-how sad that you have seen only one poster as deserving of a response.
Posted by Ginx, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 10:13:05 PM
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goodthief said: "Atheism is still a belief"

Hi goodthief. Respectfully, the above is quite simply, wrong. Theism (of your choice) is a belief. The absence of it, cannot be said to constitute a belief, I don't care how you try to spin it. The only reason you are tempted to describe it as such, is that belief in a deity, is so prevalent a phenomenon, that people who don't join in are somehow perceived to be believing in something. Please explain to me how my lack of cooperation in joining with this dominant culture of belief is somehow a belief in itself? Seriously. I am not defined by my lack of belief in Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot and I am most certainly not defined by my lack of belief in your god, whoever it is. I am interested in how society is best run and how to make it better.

Atheists may have additional beliefs about other people's religious beliefs - that is a separate matter.

goodthief said: "we all saw that ditching God didn’t make ideology safe."

Interesting. I assume you refer to Mao, Stalin, Hitler et al. While totalitarian leaders eschewed the established churches (they weren't interested in sharing their absolute power with anyone else) and were thus nominally atheist, they simply removed god and inserted themselves at the centre of the universe. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck..
Posted by stickman, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 11:28:30 AM
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(cont)
goodthief - Your post reeks of loathing for the current crop of (for want of a better word) atheist best seller writers, probably Dawkins and Hitchens. Words like strident and arrogant to the fore.

I fail to see how theirs is in the same league of arrogance as the religious man who believes in his version of deity, and "knows" that his ancient sacred text (filled with contradictions and shocking violence, whichever religion you choose) is the RIGHT one and that everyone else's combination of deity and sacred text is therefore wrong, consigning alternative belief holders to the eternal cosmic dustbin. I'm not saying this is you, but there are plenty of religious with this worldview.

It hurts to have your core beliefs challenged. But rather than respond with insults, I would be more interested in hearing you take an argument from Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Dennett and tell me why it is wrong.

Pericles - well said.
Posted by stickman, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 11:29:39 AM
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