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The Forum > Article Comments > White flight from NSW government schools > Comments

White flight from NSW government schools : Comments

By Jennifer Buckingham, published 20/3/2008

Calling increased ethic segregation in schools 'white flight' assumes it is only white parents who are making race-based choices about schools.

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Amazing! Vouchers not flogged once. Better make up for it - vouchers! vouchers! vouchers!
This is a serious failure of purpose, JB, I can only hope the Voucher line is being run in other areas of social policy, like health (the PHI rebate), child care (Oh, bless my shares in ABC) and now - welfare benefits.
Posted by gavrilo, Thursday, 20 March 2008 9:25:59 AM
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Jennifer, I hope you're monitoring the threads. Can you give us a more detailed break-down on the methodology behind this survey? I'm assuming it is qualititative, but was there a questionnaire or was it interviewed based? Did it involve all school principals, a representative sample of school principals? Was it mail-in self-selecting respondents?

We did qual research a couple of years ago now http://whatthepeoplewant.net/files/report_education_total_15_05_06.pdf which showed that about 50% of respondents (happy to go into the methodology) would like to send their kids to a private school. Of course not all the 50% could afford it. So if there is a correlation between race and income, and if the change in ethnic mix is real, perhaps it is not about race but about income.
Posted by GrahamY, Thursday, 20 March 2008 9:44:10 AM
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What an extraordinary belief! Blaming “policies that allow parents to choose among schools”.

I suppose we should take kids from their parents and put them in a kibbutz? Let’s not have any of that democratic freedom of choice nonsense! And, of course, call any parent who changes schools because of high coloured immigrant content a ‘racist’. Overlook the fact that high numbers of students from non-English speaking backgrounds do slow down the learning process for all students.

The “halcyon” days of “no racial tensions”, before the stupidity of multiculturalism are long gone. Australian politicians encouraging inappropriate immigration have seen to it that we now do have racial tensions which will increase in schools and society in general.

If there is a white flight from certain schools, it is merely a natural reaction to the dangerous policy of multiculturalism which nobody but arrogant politicians and the ethnic industry wanted.

Opposition to the divisive multiculturalism policies of both major parties has been ignored since Malcolm Fraser forced it on Australia 30 years ago.

When governments don’t listen, the people have to protect themselves in any way they can. Self-segregation is one way of doing it
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 20 March 2008 10:44:49 AM
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"If there is a white flight from certain schools, it is merely a natural reaction to the dangerous policy of multiculturalism which nobody but arrogant politicians and the ethnic industry wanted."

... which sounds suspiciously like some Pauline Hansen would have said - racism by another name.
Posted by rivergum, Thursday, 20 March 2008 1:46:39 PM
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Your comments on the ‘spin’ placed by SMH commentators is misplaced by those yearning for the simple, uncluttered schooling of yesteryear. Blaming parental choice for racial outcomes is itself discriminatory and inflammatory.

Many non-government schools regularly lose capable young students to NSW government selective schools based on those school’s much vaunted academic outcomes. If parents – and increasingly students who are making their own choices regarding their education – seek such academic outcomes for their child’s education why should they be pilloried for pursuing such choices?

It is hardly newsworthy – although media commentators make great play of perceived differences in academic results – that selective schools have and will continue to head the annual NSW HSC results league table. Something would be radically wrong if they did not.

It is also widely accepted that many students of Asian background secure places in NSW selective schools. If they are brighter and their aspirations for academic achievement are higher than other ethic groups is this wrong? Cleary not, nor is it acceptable that such schools be given labels of social or ethnic separatism. On the contrary such schools and their students should be lauded for their excellent outcomes.

Many non-government schools offer extensive scholarship programs for students whose parents would not otherwise have the financial means to enrol their child in such a school. Some non-government schools have long encouraged attendance by indigenous students.

Such enrolments come at a cost. While they may attract some government subsidy support in most instances they are financed by endowments or through allocations from annual recurrent funds, the bulk of which come from fee paying parents. In a media environment of sensationalism such social inclusiveness tends to be either ignored or overlooked.

Most non-government schools simply don’t have the funds to accept more students with disabilities or severe learning difficulties. It is an economic reality that such schools require prudence in their financial management which means placements are always limited for such deserving students. This outcome is financially driven and is not based on a culture of social segregation or operating exclusion
Posted by bennery, Thursday, 20 March 2008 1:55:28 PM
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I send my child to a private school because I believe these other children this article refers to are potentially dangerous and prone to violence and would distract my child getting a good education.

Many Asian and well heeled ethnic families feel the same way. Why should our children be beaten up and abused by ethnic little bastards when there is a better alternative.

Is very telling that the leftist moonbats are worried that thier experiment is going to slide ever more pear shaped by the loss of normal people out of public institutions.

Perhaps they will be able to give these kids careers as security guards stopping thier mates ripping off thier houses.
Posted by SCOTTY, Friday, 21 March 2008 3:24:58 AM
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Good for you Scotty.
They are your kids, they are your responsibility and it is obvious that you take your responsibility seriously.
All the lefties, righties and dilettante fence-sitters who are happy to conduct social experiments using someone else's kids don't seem to appreciate that parental responsibility to do the level best for your own kids is the prime imperative of all parents. Good stuff!
Posted by enkew, Friday, 21 March 2008 6:40:11 AM
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People have this little fantasy that different races and religions are going to get on. What a joke. They have been killing each other for years. Sure there is always some who want to mix and get on but far too many are hostile towards each other and they have set attitudes towards each other. Forcing different beliefs/cultures together doesn't generally create harmony.

Many families leave schools where there certain large ethnic groups represented because they feel alienated and they feel scared. There is no effective way of dealing with bullying so bullies rule and there are some cultures who are by nature or nurture more aggressive and violent than others.

Bennery the Selective School system of selection is grossly unfair as it identifies those who are in the better learning environment not those who are the most gifted. Therefore students from cultures were they are coached and tutored outside of school will always win against the public school student from a disadvantaged home learning environment. That is neither equitable nor fair. It is also a case that the process is open to bias, tampering and manipulation.

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 21 March 2008 7:14:32 AM
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Just one more thing I would like to add that the two times when my two youngest kids were in the Public school system, they are in the Catholic school system now, that we had issues with significant bullying it involved a Kiwi girl who took a dislike to my daughter and went out of her way to intimidate her and stop any of the other school students playing with her and to make her life miserable (they were in Year 4). This girl was very intimidating. This stopped when my husband went up to the school to pick my daughter up and asked my daughter to show him who it was. When this girl saw that my husband looked like an Islander and was dark, she left my daughter alone and treated her differently. The other incident involved two Lebanese Muslim boys who took a dislike to my son who is a very senstive and quiet boy - they ended up in a full on brawl in Kindergarten as the other boys in the class got involved to protect my son who was being harassed and bullied by these boys. These boys even went so far as to insult me in Arabic in the school playground thinking that I couldn’t understand. They called me a slut and a donkey amongst other things.

We have nothing against Kiwi's or Lebanese. We are going to a Kiwi wedding tomorrow and my husband is Lebanese but certainly there are certain groups that seem to be more rude and aggressive than others. I hate to say it but it does appear to be a fact.
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 21 March 2008 7:45:27 AM
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Jolanda said it well.There are some schools that have almost no discipline.Some of those Islander girls can flaw an adult male.Are you going to let your child be bullied and assaulted just to prove that you are not racist in the minds of the luny left?
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 21 March 2008 8:28:49 AM
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Well said the last 3 posters. Tell it the way it is, not the way the limp left want to hear it.
Posted by Mr. Right, Friday, 21 March 2008 8:31:46 AM
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“White flight” is certainly not endemic across NSW schools but it is a strong element of what we call “choice” of schools in some communities, and part of a myriad of layers and circumstances affecting the schooling decisions (if they have the means to make any decisions) made by families.

If Jennifer Buckingham finds such reports disturbing perhaps she should call for a thorough review of the extent and causes of social and even racial sifting and sorting created by our framework of public and private schools.

It isn’t enough to attack the commentary of those who point the finger at private schools. They also point to divisions between public schools. But the way private schools are structured and funded in Australia makes them a disproportionate part of the problem. Deal with it, Jennifer!

It also isn’t enough to attribute divisions between schools to existing socioeconomic and ethnic stratification in our towns and cities. Even assuming this is the case, what should be the role of government?

Is it the role of government to exacerbate or to reduce these divisions? If the former, Buckingham needs to show how this creates a better Australia. On the other hand, if it is in the public interest for governments to reduce such division then Buckingham needs to ask how this could be done, while preserving some of the “choice” she seems to value above all else.

I wish you luck, Jennifer.
Posted by bunyip, Friday, 21 March 2008 9:33:49 AM
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bunyip: "...But the way private schools are structured and funded in Australia makes them a disproportionate part of the problem."

I think bunyip's hit the nail on the head. Over the past decade or so we've seen an increasing amount of the Federal education budget diverted from the public school system to the plethora of private - mostly religious - schools that have sprung up under the Howard government.

Of course parents should have choices about where their kids are educated, but if they want to send them to private schools they should be paying for them, not taxpayers in general. Most of these schools wouldn't survive without public subsidies.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 21 March 2008 9:46:51 AM
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This article, and replies, have ignored one of the aspects of 'white flight' covered by the SMH.

This is what could be better called 'white exclusion' rather than white flight.

There are only a certain number of student positions available in state selective high schools. When some parents abuse their children by denying them a normal childhood, by forcing them in their pre-teen years into many hours of academic coaching in order to gain entry into a selective high school the system effectively punishes those other parents who provide their children with a more balanced preparation for life.

The school featured in the SMH was unnamed; - it is of course Sydney Boys High School, a school of traditions of academic, sporting and individual achievement. It is now 90% Asian, and has to provide remedial English classes for some students. Last year its 1st XV was thrashed by all opposition, not for want of trying: those young men were simply out of their depth.

Perhaps its time for Sydney Boys to be split into two schools - a Sydney Academic Boys High School, which would not bother with the tradition and not pretend to be "Sydney Boys", and a Sydney Boys High School, with a balanced academic, sporting and cultural basis.
Posted by Hamlet, Friday, 21 March 2008 1:19:06 PM
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Some friends of mine live in Carlingford. Their children go to the local public high school. The daughter was one of only two non Asian kids in the class. The only foreign language offered was Mandarin from which they were excluded, as they could not keep up with the rest of the class for obvious reasons. In addition, they found themselves socially unable to mingle.

My friends are now planning to send their kids to an independent school. I personally cannot fault them in any way, It would appear that tolerance and inclusion is not a two way street.

Epping high, in a relatively wealthy suburb is nearly 75% Asian, so the issue is not only about the low income underprivileged areas. It probably has more to do with not wanting to be part of a shrinking minority group, and parents are voting with their feet.
Posted by Democritus, Friday, 21 March 2008 2:28:46 PM
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All good that whites want to stick to their own, as do many others. My only worry is the effect on the workforce... the so-called "skills shortage" where there is an abundance of skills but difficulty in matching them them with the ethnic preferences of employers.
All people, school age or not, should, one day per week, be coerced mingle with a random person of a different race, with some intelligence factor being the only factor allowed for matching.
Posted by savoir68, Friday, 21 March 2008 6:51:17 PM
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Leftist social engineering has created the problem.It is not just about the skin colour.It is about values,cultural attitudes,and in many instances intelligence.Malcolm Fraser threw caution to the wind,against all the advice of his depts, when he took immigrants from southern Lebanon a lawless Anglo hating tribe of Muslims.
Now this group alone has created more ethnic friction than all the other groups combined.It was a disaster.

There are many good Lebanese and they are suffering from the fallout as are other ethnic groups.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 22 March 2008 7:43:34 AM
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My son goes to a private school, we pay the fees, no government asistance.

But it is as racist if not worse than public schools.

The arguement that GY and wants to believe that there is no connection between income and racism proves how ignorant he is on both counts.

The sensationsist headline 'White Flight" assumes that a system of aparthied is only relevant and in existence when whites abandon schools for fear of other so called races.

When Aboriginal or other kids are in the minority at a school they always get blamed for "creating racism".

Apparently it has nothing to do with the majoirty and those who administer the school
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 22 March 2008 12:03:51 PM
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Rainer, I wasn't even talking about racism. I was suggesting that it is possible that there might be a strong income component in people being able to move away from particular schools, and that this might reflect in the racial profiles of those left. It was an hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I'm interested in exploring the issue, not scoring points.
Posted by GrahamY, Saturday, 22 March 2008 12:27:45 PM
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Rainer you are too fixated on being the victim.Go to any school and you will see children congregating in recognisable groups such as nerds,sporting types,trendies etc.It is just human nature.The flight of anglos from the public school system isn't all about race.I send my children to a Catholic school because of the better discipline and caring nature of the school.

My children have Indian,Chinese,Italian,Greek and Lebanese friends.They get treated as equals.There is not the slightest hint of racism in their group.

I think that there are greater divisions evolving in our society due to intelligence, education and economic status rather than skin colour.The term "White Flight" is an over simplification since many people of ethnic origin attend independant schools.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 22 March 2008 4:42:24 PM
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Threads like this is only fueling racism! Wake up to yourselves! If the ship is sinking, are you only going to excepted the hand that is with-in your colour range, again! wake up! Man! The human race has still a long way to go
Posted by evolution, Saturday, 22 March 2008 10:58:11 PM
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Here We Go, Rainier the Victim once again.

Fits the bill on all points.

You go BIG R, The white Anglo Saxon Race are involved in a concerted effort to deny Aboriginal Kids a chance to learn alongside thier children...

Has anyone ever watched a DOCO called Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes?

or

BBQ AREA?

Is Racism ever justified?

For everyone!

As long as it doesnt happen to my kid...

Rainier if my kids beat up your kids and your friends kids on a day by day basis and all mediation was met with "I'll get my family onto you, you white prick" as is apt to happen when dealing with our native friends in regional areas, would you not say well bugger it I have had enough I will do what it takes to get them a better education.

Matey you know why your mob got a problem? You mob have no responsibilty. Its always somone elses fault. Not your problem your people abuse kids or treat elders with disrespect.

Im sure you will have some half arsed Lawyer response but deep down you know that this is true.

Shame on you blaming us mob for your sins. Shame
Posted by SCOTTY, Monday, 24 March 2008 2:10:56 AM
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Rainier! Right now I am listening to a song by Air Supply, and this is no bull, I hope I have the spelling right. And the title of the song is, I cant fight this feeling anymore. Please give it a listening, cause all you need is love. and that's a fact.

I believe in this song, and I might have just forgotten to tell you all, I have being playing the guitar for 26 years and music is what helps me.

All the best.
Posted by evolution, Monday, 24 March 2008 4:15:36 AM
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We need to stop abusing the word racism. The vast majority of the times when people have an attitude about a certain group or culture it is not because of the colour of their skin, but because of the way that they act and behave.

You cannot behave badly or be rude and disrespectful and expect people to still love you just because you have different or darker colour skin or even believe in different things.

It is not how you look that makes the difference but how you act. In Australia today I really do not think that there is too much Racism that is based on the colour of skin just alot of people with attitudes about how other people act. IN many cases it is justified.

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 24 March 2008 7:49:06 AM
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Jolanda is so right, 'racism', the favourite word of Racists, is flung around at the slightest sign of a complaint against anyone who is not white.
It is bad attitude, arrogance,misbehaviour that gets people really mad.Everyone but the Racist got over racism years ago.
It is those who consider they are above the law,whatever culture they come from,who need to be stamped on .
I would love to see a list of all politicians' childrens schools. How many of them attend state schools and how many of them attend private schools. That would make for interesting reading.
Posted by mickijo, Monday, 24 March 2008 2:15:59 PM
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Hello to all - and what a great article. I'd like to offer my own experience. For prodding thought and comment, and perhaps some research by someone eager to find out what happened in a little microcosm.
I drive a government bus, and have driven all over Sydney - and this includes many school busses. My guess is that you can get a good idea about how a school is going from bus drivers' experience of the students (and occassionally of the teachers).
I used to pick up students from Macquarie Boys Technology High School in North Parramatta. The kids were amongst the worst behaved that I have ever come across. The teacher(s) sent down to try to keep things safe had given up. I developed my own strategy, which after some time worked (and it did not include yelling at them or putting anyone off the bus).
I transferred to drive in another area. My colleagues who had to still deal with these kids eventually decided to send down to that school only those drivers from the ethnic group which was causing the greatest trouble, which I have never heard of in nearly 20 years in this job. ( I had told many of my colleagues of my strategy, but I don't know if any of them tried it.)
As I live in the area served by that school, I also came across some parents who had to deal with students from that school, and all of them were scathing of their behaviour.
That school has now closed. It's not as if no children are growing up in that area. Almost no-one wanted to send their son there. I wouldn't have sent a dog there.
Posted by camo, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 2:09:05 PM
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camo's story - and the basis of this discussion thread - is very similar to why Narwee Boys High School, the Alma mater of the NSW Premier,(southern (and almost, western Sydney) was 'closed'

The fact that the school site was then sold off to developers is also indicative of said premier's party's modus operandi, however, the point is:

1. School attracts certain ethnic group who do not behave

2. Other groups feel excluded

3. steps 1 & 2 keep repeating with no government intervention

4. Said ethnic group community offer to 'buy out' site along with an offer from established Christian school looking to branch out

5. Said government assesses school closure safest way out

6. Local community loses school, sees community hall PAID FOR BY THE LOCAL COMMUNITY demolished and school replaced with medium to high density housing estate.
Posted by Reality Check, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 5:24:23 PM
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This "multiculturalism" that Australia claims to have: it's a bit of a farce, don't you think? Multiculturalism seems to really just be about easing other cultures into a dominant culture by destroying what makes them unique, while letting them keep their most superficial qualities. With that in mind, it's a really superficial kind of multiculturalism that destroys more culture than it fosters.

"If we want multiple cultures to flourish, really flourish according to their own, then each culture needs to be given geographical space and ideological autonomy rather than be interspersed."

http://www.anus.com/tribes/au/entry/56/Senior_minister_calls_for_cult
Posted by K., Thursday, 27 March 2008 6:15:44 PM
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While we're talking about behaviour, rather than ethnic group, I'd like to add that the other school which is highest on the worst behaviour list is Waverley College. The predominently celtic-anglo students are terrible to eachother, and thoughtless towards others, from my observation. But the Catholic sense of solidarity means that students keep being sent there.
K, the trouble with letting ethnic groups have ideological autonomy (presumably over their community) is that this frequently clashes with universal human rights, and in practice means that the old men of the community get to lord it over everyone else in their community. At times this means only that the community gets a bit stuffy. But sometimes the consequences are much more serious, and people's lives are at stake.
Multiculturalism must be subservient to Universal human rights (and not the Islamic version).
Posted by camo, Friday, 28 March 2008 9:11:04 AM
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Well from these comments Sydney seems like a fairly nasty place. Melb from my experience has no where near the level of racial segregation in schools. High schools serving well off communities do well and often out perform modest fee private schools and have long waiting lists. High schools in poorer areas often end up with a marginal school population with many of the better off residents sending their kids to the modest fee private/Catholic schools-more like aspirational flight than white flight. Many of the comments above are obviously from very unhappy people who live in areas with high ethnic populations and lower incomes. In a way these people are justified in feeling ripped off. The politicians that make the migration decisions never live in these areas and never send their kids to marginalised state schools.
Posted by pdev, Friday, 28 March 2008 1:36:04 PM
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