Many people still have a ‘thing’ about Jews. It’s a feeling that has been around for hundreds of years; it now extends to the country, Israel, even though many of that country’s inhabitants are not Jews.

The ravings of posters to OLO during Israel’s defence against terrorist rocket attacks from Lebanon is just one example of the anti-Israel/Jewish feelings. The Jews, it seems, are supposed to go under quietly, as they did at the hands of Nazi Germany. Even then, there was more hatred for the Nazis than there was sympathy or concern for Jews

Peter is correct with the that the Nazi programmme was inspired because Jews were said to (falsely) of a different race. To be explicit, it was claimed that they were Semites, not Europeans and with all the religious overtones (sons of Noah) that was supposed to carry. It is a little odd then that some now say that the phrase "anti-semitism" only applies to Jews! Now that's certainly getting it around the wrong way.

One has no problems with Peter's condemnation of the theological hatred of Hamas. However the core problem, from the Palestinian perspective (and you must understand the perspective of your opponent if you genuinely want a just resolution), is "what are they doing here?", "why do they treat us like this?". Israel occupies, and continues to illegally occupy lands far is extension of the UN partition plan of 1947.

When looking at Peter's dot point claims:

1) "Their attacks have provoked the restrictions Israel has applied to Gaza, not the other way round". Actually, no. Israel invaded (1967) and occupied Gaza. Hamas was formed in 1987 as a result of this occupation and the failure by Israel to recognise a Palestinian state.

2) "The measures taken by Israel are in self-defence against repeated attacks against their civilians by an enemy openly bent on genocide". From the other perspective, the actions taken by the Palestinians are self-defense of their civilians against a foreign and aggressive militaristic power which seeks borders from the brook of the Nile to the Euphrates.

3) "The measures taken by Israel may seem harsh, but it is obscene to compare them to what the Nazis did." Except for the bombings of refugee camps, the use of human shields, and comparative statements between Dr. Hacohen with Julius Streicher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Maxwell-Hyslop)

It is only when such attitudes are expunged from Muslim and Jew alike that there is even the possibility of peace in the Levant.

Peter,
Your pro-Israeli anti-Palestinian hate rant is intellectually dishonest. It never once discuss's the cause of the rocket fire. Why not?

You indirectly and stupidly present a claim the rockets fired equate to an attempt at genocide.

The hate propaganda piece you've written ignores the illegal 40 year occupation, repression and land stealing by the Israeli's and significantly the fact Hamas did not come into existance until 1987 as an occupation resistance organisation. You seem to present an argument that suggests any sort of civillian action by the Palestinians is terrorism rather than the actions of civillians resisting and attempting to overthrow the Israeli illegal occupation and repression. In other theatres they'd usually be classed as heroes.

Instead of denouncing stupid parallel's with some of the actions of the Nazi's why don't you instead try to debunk the hate propaganda of the Israeli's.

Btw I have used once an analogy with the behaviour of the Nazi's. One you cannot debunk because it draws the relevant parallel.

It's this.

The Israeli government with it's aggression into Lebanon, it's disregard of international conventions in relation to occupations and it's attempt at the overthrow of a democratically elected Palestinian government is the worst display of wanton disregard for Western liberal principles by a government which insuinuates a claim to upholding those beliefs since Adolph Hitler and the Nazis.

Yep read it again and again. Get it into your head. It's the truth.

I don't support the idealogy of Hamas nor it's charter however I did support it's democratic right to govern, after it's election, according to it's election manifesto. That manifesto clearly stated it would not launch attacks on Israel as a government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606482.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4686844.stm
And for some balance
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1137605945945

Yep read those again and again too. It's the truth. Get it into your head. They cannot be debunked by dishonest intellectual argument nor pro-Israel anti-Palestinian hate propaganda of the sort you've engaged in here.

Leigh

'...Israel, even though many of that country’s inhabitants are not Jews.'

In this regard by 2020 population projections suggest Israel will have more Palestinian Arabs than Jewish Israelis. Will you at that point agree with the election of a majority, for example, Hamas or Fatah government of Israel? You see that is what the Jewish Israelis fear most and it is what Hamas is waiting for. That lies at the heart of Israels immigration policies and restrictions.

'The Jews, it seems, are supposed to go under quietly,...'

Do you think the Israeli illegal occupation and theft of Palestinian lands should mean the Palestinians should stay under ... quietly?

Keith and Lev - we know where people like you are coming from. It's only to be expected when people start off by branding Peter's views as hateful.

What you carefully avoided was the fact that Hamas was not formed to end Israel's occupation of territory but as Peter said its aim is to destroy Israel and kill Jews. That's exactly where the comparison between Warsaw Ghetto and Palestinian terror lies.

And I can only conclude that you blokes support those genocidal aims in Article 7 of the Hamas Charter.

It is a pity, AVG, that you came to a conclusion that Keith and I have explicitly rejected. Obviously expressing a total and absolute rejection of Hamas' article 7 is insufficient for your liking. Instead, we should evidently turn a blind eye to the numerous breaches of international law, abuse of human rights, theft of land, occupation etc by "the other side".

Your reasoning is rather like those who think we should turn a blind eye to the abuses of the invasion of Iraq, et al on the basis that to criticise such actions amounts to supporting Al Qaeda. G-d help those who engage in such "reasoning", for they will end up just like the monsters they claim to oppose.

Israel does not occupy Gaza. It left that territory some time ago and established there a democratic state. The people elected a Hamas government which has in its charter the elimination of Israel and fires hundreds of deadly rockets at its neighbour. The world, including Europe has placed a boycott on Gaza as a result. Hamas has gone on a murderous rampage to place itself permanently in power. The poor Gazans are paying heavily for voting for mad fanatics. If Israel were to intervene to restore democracy the usual suspects would complain yet again.

Gaza has a border with Egypt, an Arab neighbour, which has closed itself off to Gaza. The Egyptians, who the Gazans are not attacking, have no stomach for Hamas either. Surprisingly much of the western press manages to criticize Israel for the Egyptian actions. Israel, which supplies electric power to Gaza was recently criticized for Gaza blackouts when the supply from Israel was still there.

The China Post English language edition gives a different and truer perspective of the ME situation. For example it reported correctly that Israel had not stopped electricity supply to Gaza. China Post comes from Taiwan, a predominantly Buddhist country which has no historic antipathy to Judaism. Could this be the difference?

Christianity and Islam alike have as their objective the conversion of the whole world to their respective faiths, claiming that divine benefits flow only to their own supporters, perhaps that is the problem. Asian religions, as with Judaism preach that there are many paths to Paradise.

it is conveniently ignored that the nazis tried to solve the 'jewish problem' by exporting them, but could find no place that would receive them, in any significant number. this doesn't excuse the final solution, but it does make clear that the developed, western world regarded the european jews as someone else's problem.

after the war, they solved the jewish problem by giving them their own land. the fact that moslems lived on that land and were about 85% of the population was ignored. everyone congratulated themselves on solving the jewish question. well, not everyone, the people who lived in palestine before european jews poured in to take their homes at gunpoint were not impressed by the justice of the dispossession.

some of them continue to fight, as would i. they have justice on their side, which is less valuable than the patronage of the u. s. a. but more enduring. the zionists are simply bandits. they complain bitterly that the victims of their invasion will not lay down and die quietly, out of sight. when hamas strikes it's feeble blows, that is the home owner trying to get back his home. when israel retaliates, that is the bandit home invaders compounding their crimes.

don't waste any sympathy on the zionists, irgun made their bed, let them learn what being on the other end of terrorism is like.

Firstly, lest anyone accuse me of being anti-Jewish, I don't care what god or gods people choose to worship as long as they don't try to inflict them on me. However, I do care for the truth.

The article is based on a lie. The truth is that in 1948 the Israelis dispossessed from their homes and farms by brute force, using guns and bulldozers, about 700 000 to 900 000 indigenous Palestinian Arabs. This is recorded by the Isreali historian Ilan Pappe. The truth is that the Israelis have continued to ignore aspects of the Geneva Conventions and a great many UN resolutions indicating that they should take a somewhat more polite attitude to the human beings they have dispossessed.This includes not murdering civilains in refuggee camps, as happened in Lebanon in 1982.

The truth is that people who have been driven out of their homes by force of arms are recognised by the UN as having the right to fight back to remove the occupiers. It is a truth that holds for me should Indonesia try to dispossess me from Australia, and it also applies equally both to those Jewish heroes who fought back in Warsaw against the Nazis and to the Palestinians driven out by force of arms to wherever they now live. I will not comment on Israel's atomic weapons, or much about the fact that Israel now rates as one of the most highly armed nations in the world, or much about the fact that Israel had a kill ratio of 20 Palestinian Arabs to 1 Israeli during the first Intifada (tanks and fighter aircraft against stone-throwers). All this is well-documented by Israeli historians who are not frightnend to speak out against abomination.

There will be those who claim god gave Israel to the Jews in Bibilical times. From my reading of the Bible, Moses and his mates invaded Palestine by force of arms and promptly set about murdering the opposition. And I couldn't care less what religous beliefs were held by Moses and his mates. Invasion and murder is still invasion and murder.

It waa Edward Said who described the Palestinians (correctly in my view) as victims of the victims.

The establishment through the UN of the Israeli state was to my mind an act of genocide against the Palestinian people. That genocide and its consequences continue today.

A one state solution - a democratic and secular Palestine - in which all who want to can live appears to me the only long term solution. It is not on the agenda now, or in the foreseeable future.

HenryVIII

My reading of the bible is a little different. My understanding is that God fulfilled his promise and delivered the Jews to the promised land. However, it was Jewish sin that led to the distruction of the second temple and the diapora. In other words, unless I missed a burning bush or something, God fulfilled his promise and never invited the Jews back.

Passy,

Edward Said may have described the Palestinans as the victims of victims but that doesn't make him right. In every Western country where there is a Jewish minority, without exception, you'll find it to be the wealthest, best educated, and most politically powerful of all minorities. In short, there is no minority that compares to its power and status. The fact that we must endure constant bleating about Jewish 'victims' and the holocaust just proves my point.

To be honest, I couldn't care less about the holocaust. Jews constantly tell us we must remember so it doesn't happen again. Yet where were the Jewish voices speaking up during Pol Pots murderous reign? What about Rwanda? What about Bosnia? The truth is the Jews couldn't care less because to recognise other people's suffering might detract from their own monopoly on suffering.

Something like 5000 people die every day from preventable diseases today. Yet all we hear is bleating about something that happened 65 years ago! If you want to see suffering go to Darfur, go to just about any country in the world today and you'll find it. You could start by looking at Central Australia.

Lev, it’s fraudulent to claim to disassociate from Hamas’ racist aims and then to support all of its tactics and strategies including the war crimes it commits against its own people when it uses them for cover to fight its battles let alone to claim that there is any justification whatsoever to target innocent civilians on the Israeli side of the border.

I'm amazed also at all of the international lawyers and political scientists who have come out of the woodwork here with their false interpretations.

How about getting real and doing something in the name of peace and reconciliation between the people in the region instead of spreading malevolent hatred.

Once again the big denial. Ancient pre-Islamic Jewish (and Christian)ommunities were pushed out of Arab Muslim lands, Israel is now home to descendants of Islamic pressures, and they make up close to a majority of Israel's population. Their numbers exceeded the number of Arabs who left Palestine, but they were rehoused by the other Israelis, in contrast to the Arab countries who stole the properties the Jews had to leave behind and refused to help their Arab brethren. The view that Israel is a solution only of European actions is just so untrue.

This is at present before a US senate committee. The failure of the Israeli critics to acknowledge this simple fact just smacks of prejudice.

For the record, Jews who settled outside of the Muslim and Christian world's have faced no problems. Sections of Christianity and Islam alike seek world domination, that is where the real problem is. Fortunately strict Christianity is on the wane, but its ugly head still rears in parts of the US.

Logic,

Gaza was invaded in 1967 and military rule continued until 2005, with re-invasion occurring in June 2006 with subsequent airstrikes since then. It is estimated that between 7,000 and 9,000 Israeli artillery shells were fired into Gaza between September 2005 and June 2006 from Israel, killing 80 Palestinians in 6 months. From the Palestinian side, over 1,300 "home-made" Qassam rockets were fired into Israel from September 2000 to December 21, 2006 (correctly described by the Israeli Ministry of Defense as "more a psychological than physical threat"). Israel controls Gaza's airspace, territorial water, offshore maritime access, population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports (reducing the total quantity to 20 different commodities) as well as the tax system - and most recently even the flow of medicines results in scores of deaths. Little wonder it is considered by some to be an internment camp and is still classified worldwide as "Israeli-occupied territory". (c.f., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_the_Gaza-Egypt_border).

Whatever the crimes of Hamas' militants what is occurring in Gaza is "collective punishment", an utterly abhorrent approach to any who have a degree of civility about them.

Demos,

Whilst I concur with most of what you have written, please don't paint all zionists of the same colour. There are those (and I count myself as among them) who are "secular zionists", holding that there can be a Jewish homeland in a secular State of Palestine.

AVG,

It is utterly asinine to suggest that a programme of military resistance is causal to a political objective of racism. The fact that you are unable to differentiate between the two is simply terrible.

Want to do something real in the name of peace and reconciliation? Join up: http://www.odspi.org/

Dane-I hadn't looked at the bible like that.Interesting argument.I can't agree with your comments about the holocaust, because the same holocaust murdered 20 million Russians albeit not all of them went through the gas chambers, but got burned to death in churches or shot by Nazi extermination squads. These are crimes we should not forget and which led directly to the notion that soldiers and public servants have an accountable responsibility to an authority more powerful than their political and military leaders. It's what gives we small people a chance to take our abusers to court and hang them if necessary.

The issue of the Israeli occupation of Palestine will not go away, as will no stories of occupation anywhere, for a long time. Human beings, if forced off their land and into sub-standard accomodation, will eventually fight back and indeed have the right to do so. Their religion is of no relevance except that it can be used by the politically unscrupulous to stir up trouble for the purposes of taking power. The answer to the Israel/Palestine issue is one secular state embracing Israel, the West Bank/Occupied Territories/Gaza and a pluralist political system in which all have the same rights and opportunities. And payment of adequate compensation to those who had their land stolen. Shades of Australia? Extremist religious bigots won't like the idea.

HenryVIII

Jews in Arab countries were forced off their land. They lost everything. But they haven't "fought back". They set up a new life in Israel. And they didn't get any compensation for their stolen property.

But everyone on this forum ignores this fact. And why? I think prejudice. Or because it casts doubts on their one sided arguments. Of course the Western Press plays a apart in its one sided coverage. I suggest you read an Asian paper for more balanced reporting on this issue. Try the Taiwanese China Post on line.

And speaking of Taiwan they have been conquered again and again, by the Spanish, the Dutch, the Chinese, the Japanese and again by the Chinese. Do they fire rockets at their enemies and train their children as suicide bombers? The Singaporeans have a similar history of conquest and a land mass roughly the same size as Gaza with a similar population.

In both countries they accepted the new situation pulled their fingers out, educated their children properly and got to work. The Jews in Israel have historically a lot more to complain about than the Gazans, including those from other Arab nations but they do the same as the Asians, which is why in Buddhist countries Israel has far more respect than the Palestinians.

And you forget that Gaza was a base for an attempt to annihilate Israel, which is why Israel felt it necessary for its own security to hold them in check.

In what other parts of the world are suicide bombers glorified, women expected to dress in all enclosing robes in a hot climate, and children taught to hate for generation after generation? In Israel the Jews have moved on from the holocaust, young Israelis do not blame young Germans for what their parents had done.

The Gazans could be well off if they followed the example of Taiwan, Singapore or Israel. They have to get off their backsides, make peace with Israel and get to work.

Get real all of you. Shed your prejudices.

Out trot all the anti-arab ranters without a fact to bless their little cotton socks with.

1. Palestine was partitioned without their permission by the deluded European countries who didn't want the jews in their countries after WW11.
2. The arab countries only began to "expel" the jews after the genocide and ethnic cleansing exercised by the Israeli terrorist gangs and eye witnesses state clearly that in Iraq it was the Irgun gang who fire bombed jews to force them to go to Israel because no-one else wanted to go.
3. Israel not only did not actually leave Gaza they were told in 1967 that all the settlements were illegal and decided to build them anyway.
4. Israel is not a state, she has no borders, no constitution and no ability to do anything unless the IDF says so. The place is a military dictatorship run by the IDF.
5. 13 people have been killed by the penny crackers since 2000, in contrast 82 people were slaughtered in Beit Hanoun in one week in late 2006.

Now the behaviour of the Israeli's is exactly and actually identical to the behaviour of the nazis which is hardly surprising. The people doing it are German and Russian.

Now while Israel bleats and whines they are deliberately starving the Palestinians to death on Olmert's orders and the approval of the Israeli High court.

Now just grow up the lot of you and read some of the history of the place written by Jewish historians who are not blind to the truth. You might try Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", or Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah".

Or Gershom Gorenbergs "the accidental empire" which is the history of the settlements and making facts on the ground.

Then try and use you mindless little souls to imagine how you would feel if you had some b...d built a village in your back yard, lock you in, bomb you and drive you into the sea like the jewish terrorist gangs did and continue to do to the Palestinians.

As the article mentioned, people are quick to criticise Israel but very slow to offer any suggestions as to what THEY would do in Israel's position. So I'll pose the question again here - if you were the government of a country facing daily rocket attacks from a neighbouring territory what would you do? And what would your voting public expect you to do?

2 simple questions. Please refrain from covering the last 60 years of rights and wrongs by both sides (and don't tell me the questions can only be answered by considering all the history). Just answer the questions.

Thanks for link Lev but no thanks. I’ve read enough hair brained schemes to know what you’re advocating is about anything but peace and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians.

As always with Israel/Palestine it's almost impossible to get a rational discussion especially when the likes of Ms. Shepherd arrive and call for Israel's destruction with arguments based on the usual falsehoods. Who were the Palestinians before 1948? They were Arab and Jewish (the only ones who called themselves Palestinians those days were the Jews) and the United Nations resolved that the British Mandate should end and two states be created in its place - one Arab and one Jewish. Sixty years later the peace lovers among those populations want an Arab State and a Jewish State which would allow each to achieve their national aspirations (Hanan Ashrawi even won a peace prize here for advocating just that!). Your solution does neither and is a recipe for further disaster. Marilyn's answer is even worse, but that's fascism for you and after all, what the topic of "immoral equivalence" is all about. At least Mr. Wertheim's article has brought the grubs out of the woodwork!

As always with Israel/Palestine, the Israel bashers and Jew haters must have the last word, so I'll hand it over to you guys for more of your spin and spiteful rhetoric.

KEITH.....

you said:

"it's attempt at the overthrow of a democratically elected Palestinian government"

and you accuse the author of 'ignoring the reasons for the rockets'

Marylin in fine form.. (welcome back M) defies all the laws of debate gravity by placing her post right after Logics... who spelt out some very concrete aspects of the issue totally ignored by M and Keith and other socialist hounds of the Palestinervilles.

Keith.. *pinch*.... DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED? (x100)+ 50 exlamation marks!

All that means, is that the majority of Palestinians in Gaza at least, share the same genocidal views that Hamas does in its founding charter! or.. have you missed the REPEATED (yes..clearly caps are needed here to drive the point home) quotes I've provided from their charter showing that compromise and discussion are in fact unthinkable for them based on "Islamic Theology".
1/ They ADMIT the country was stolen/conquered by force by the Caliph.
2/ They then justify this. (well shock horror.. Israel is thus justified in taking it BY FORCE.. don't even THINK about speaking of 'occupation'.. the Muslims have been occupying stolen land for muchhhhh longer, so.. which 'occupation' is right and which is wrong?)

So... given that most Palestinians in Gaza support the prinicples of Hamas, Israel is quite justified in declaring total war on them.. let me repeat that- TOTAL WAR.. as in..'final solution'.. (there..I said it again)
Just as if Indonesia had a referendum on its consitution, where the alteration stated "Australia forms a natural part of the coming Islamic Caliphate of South East Asia, and as such, its infidel leaders must be subdued, defeated and the country incoporated into Indonesia, would justify our calling in the Anzus treaty to finish them off.

Logic,

You claim that "everyone" ignores the fact that some Jews were forced out of some Arab countries (and we may add, subsequent to the establishment of Israel). Actually that is not true; in such discussions I have referred to it several times.

Claiming equivalence between Singapore, Taiwan and Gaza is quite illogical (although you may wish to check the relative power of Singapore and Taiwan's military). Singapore and Taiwan are independent states with economic freedom. Everything that goes in or out of Gaza is subject to Israel's control. The suggestion that they should simply put up with it simply impossible. Would you put up with it?

Spy,

You ask a very serious question. I have already provided a link to what I would do in Israel's position. One secular, democratic state of Israel-Palestine is what I support. Evidently AVG considers such a proposal as "Jew hatred" - nothing could be further from the truth! - and asks whether the Palestinians even existed prior to 1948. AVG may consider reading Herodotus!

Also, Spy, I would have a second look if I were you on the actual quantity (number, explosive weight and effectiveness) of who has fired rockets from Gaza to Israel - and the reverse.

Lev-good one. I agree with your solution to the problem. The problem is made impossible to solve because of religious bigotry and a stupid disregard of history, as shown by the pernicious lies in the article in the first place and the idiot comments that ignore history in this thread.

The analogies with Taiwan and Singapore are so blatantly ridiculous as to be not worth commnetary.

Has anyone an Atlas at hand? Look at it. Gaza has a border with Egypt. How does Israel control this? Egypt once considered it part of their territory.

Talk to some of the refugees from Arab lands. Christian, Baha'i and Druze as well as Jews. The forgotten refugees. Apparently bleeding hearts reserve their critiques for Israel alone.

Pressures on Jews and other non Muslims occurred in the Arab world long before WW2 and the establishment of the Jewish state. Petition was also proposed long before the UN session. The presence of Israel does not explain pressures on Christians.

Its a pity there is difficulty in distinguishing between a penny cracker and a missile however primitive.

But I cannot counter blind hatred and prejudice.

Taiwan and Singapore are relevant. Some countries have picked themselves up after colonialism. But you selectors of convenient articles don't want facts to affect your prejudices.

So be it. You only serve to prove the correctness of the article.

Lev,

2 points. First, I'm aware of the type of rocket fire coming from Gaza and the small number of casualties. However, there is still significant disruption to daily life in Sderot and other areas of the Negev. Let's remember that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and co. would love to get their hands on more firepower with which to inflict greater damage. Fortunately, they've so far been unable to do so - largely as a result of the Israelis imposing strict controls on what comes in and out of Gaza.

Second, the single-state solution is unworkable. To expect that a secular state could be crafted out of the current mess is pie in the sky stuff. Demographically the Palestinians would become a majority within a couple of decades. This would spell the end for the Jewish population. The Israelis know this and will therefore never agree to a single state.

The only sensible solution is a 2 state solution. This is what the moderates on both sides are working towards and this is what the majority of people on both sides are in favour of. Sadly it's radical elements on both sides that are attempting to hijack this.

BTW, i'm still waiting for answers to my questions about what you'd do in Israel's position in response to rocket attacks from Gaza

Spy

To answer your question. If I was an Israeli I'd dismantle the settlements and cease the occupation...ie stop stealing my neighbours land and cease my suppression them. I'd also extend the hand of frienship to my peace loving neighbours and their democratically elected government.

Not too hard really for it's what we Western Liberal Democrats have done for the past couple of centuries ... and it's made us the most safe, secure and prosperous nations on this earth ... ever.

But then again we've developed over time through our extroverted seeking of new knowledge and concepts which have developed and evolved through time. Which is in total contrast to the bigotted narrow minded and vision lacking idiots who draw their truth from an unchanged thousands of years old book of fantasies and fairy tales and who believe some God centuries ago in one of their concocted tales 'told' them they owned all the land from one river to another.

And some goose from the latter camp has told me to get real ... Ha bloody ha.

Not a murmur of of ourtrage, nor protest, nor indeed even acknowledgment of the plight of Palestians, when :

... Palestinians are caged and treated as sub-human in Arab States; where even those born, now three generations, have no claim to citizenship status.

... Palestinians are killing other Palestinians. By October of the year 2005, 151 dead; more than in clashes with Israeli troops defending their country against terrorism.
Mohammed Daraghmeh, “Palestinian Vigilante Killings on the Rise,” AP, (Oct. 6, 2005)

... Hamas Al-Aqsa Children‘s TV program teaches the joys of martyrdom; or kindergarten tots dressed as suicide bombers, portray them, yelling in their “final” moments “Alah Ak-bah”, or children and adolescents forced to kiss the bloodied corpses of terrorist-operative martyrs (shaheeds).

Concern for Palestinians? Utter Bosh! Be honest. It is the mention of Israel - and you come out like pit-bulls attacking a prey.

Israel is tiny, its narrowest point 9 miles across. According to some here, Jews, as a people, aren’t allowed to have a minute strip of country of their own; and they certainly aren’t permitted the right of defending its people of whom Jews represent only 73%. Arabs have over 50 countries. Every other people have a country. But let’s deny Jews this - after all they are responsible for all the world’s woes - even for the Black Death (sarcasm, Lev).

Keith interprets the actions of of Israel through the prism of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. I suspect he and von Tongeren “lunch”.

Marilyn and Lev read, uncritically, whatever trash supports their position.

cont ...

Ilan Pappe’ - the ultimate postmodern historian - never mind facts, look how big the book. Pappe admits this, often:

“Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,"
Interview - French newspaper, Le Soir, April 29, 1999.

One of the lies Pappe propagates, ad nauseum: Israel
committed a massacre in Jenin in 2002. This has been refuted, also by UN reports.

Benny Morris critiquing Pappe's 2004 book, A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples, wrote in the New Republic:

“Much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. . . . This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. . . .”

Norman Finkelstein’s work is THE text used by anti-Semites. The New York Times’ review described the premise of his “Holocaust Industry,” - full of slurs, fabrications, omissions, and selective editing - as a "novel variation" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Finkelstein mocked Nobel Prize winner and noted human rights activist, for all peoples, Eli Wiesel, as the “resident clown”; indeed, slanders other Jewish human rights activists.

One can easily demolish each of Marilyn’s points. There is ample factual, well documented and supportable material to do so. But I am certainly not wasting time ... yet again ... on Marilyn’s hysterical rants; nor waste time, as have done so, “trying” to debate Lev and his delusions of social engineering..

Refusing to believe it initially, I have unwillingly come to the conclusion that Keith, Marilyn and Lev, and their camp-followers, are anti-Semites (the academic term, Marilyn; Lev - the new face of anti-Semitism).

Knee-jerk protests: “I like Jews, I have friends who are Jews” - the typical response of anti-Semites.

I recognise the ugly, scorpion-face of, and rhetoric of racism, only too well.

Danielle

Sadly once again you cannot defend the actions of the Israelis so you sink to the level of lies and personal abuse.

You've never been able to back up your stupid anti-semitic slurs ... and still can't.

You know the last time you entered your views on this forum it became all to obvious you could be condemned as an emotionally crippled intellectual dwarf.

Nothing has changed.

Keith, thank you for providing a response to my questions about what you'd do if you were Israeli. Sadly you appear to have little grasp of the facts

"If I was an Israeli I'd dismantle the settlements and cease the occupation"

Comment: Hold on a second, Israel dismantled the settlements and withdrew from Gaza in the summer of 2005. What did it get in return? Almost daily rocket attacks from Gaza! Now with the Gaza experience in mind it's hardly suprising that Israel would think twice about pulling out of the West Bank. After all, missiles fired from the West Bank could reach Jerusalem and other major Israeli population centres. Would you pull out your military and expose yourself to that type of threat? I think not.

Like many, I used to think that if Israel simply withdrew from the territories the Palestinians would be happy and all would be fine. Unfortunately, Gaza proves otherwise. Hamas and other radical groups want to destroy Israel. They will not be satisfied with what is now known as the West Bank and Gaza. They want ALL of what is now Israel.

"I'd also extend the hand of frienship to my peace loving neighbours and their democratically elected government."

Comment: Not sure if you're being sarcastic here with the reference to "peace loving neighbours". Let's assume you're being serious. Well, sorry to wake you up Keith but Israel already has extended the hand of friendship - it has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan.

I suggest you check the facts before your next post.

Danielle,

1) The plight of the Palestinians in Arab lands is well acknowledged. They have been treated poorly by various despotic regimes and there has been serious condemnation of some of Hamas' objectives in this thread.

2) The UN report is quite different to what you claims (cf., http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/). Further information is well documented (http://www.jenininquiry.org/).

3) Dr. Ilan Pappé engages in normal historical practice. He accumulates facts and then he interprets those facts.

The full interview of can be found here: (http://www.ilanpappe.org/Interviews/An%20Interview%20with%20Ilan%20Pappe.html).

Dr. Pappé's response to Benny Morris comments in New Republic are quite illustrative; Pappé can read Arabic and also used Arabic sources, whereas Morris cannot; his (unpublished) response is worthy reading for those who wish further understanding on the debate rather than shrill assertions

(http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2555.shtml)

4) The fact that Norman Finklestein's work "The Holocaust Industry" is used by anti-Semites doesn't mean that the content is incorrect. As Finklestein himself remarks "None [of the critics], so far as I can tell, question my actual findings."

We are of course aware that Finklestein is better placed than most to discuss the holocaust; his mother and father survived the Majdanek and Auschwitz concentration camps respectively.

Spy,

It is unreasonable to continue claiming that "Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005" when they invaded the following year, have a stranglehold on the economy. Out of 9,000 commodities that were entering Gaza before the 2006, only 20 commodities were to be allowed in. Even the Red Cross found the need to comment on the collective punishment being forced on the people of Gaza.

Still, you are certainly right about one thing. Yes, we do want the whole lot - all of historic Palestine as one democratic and secular state; and that would eventually end the rocket attacks on both sides. And demographics be damned - that's a fundamentally racist argument! So what if Jews end up being a minority religion in Palestine? It's not numbers that count it is the provision of egalitarian political rights that matter.

Lev says:

"Still, you are certainly right about one thing. Yes, we do want the whole lot - all of historic Palestine as one democratic and secular state; and that would eventually end the rocket attacks on both sides. And demographics be damned - that's a fundamentally racist argument! So what if Jews end up being a minority religion in Palestine? It's not numbers that count it is the provision of egalitarian political rights that matter."

I agree. The question then becomes how does this happen?

Spy,

Regarding Israel and the Palestinians, Keith demonstrates the mental condition “Confirmation Bias ” - well documented in psychological annals. It is also fixated. No rational argument nor verifyable facts can pass through this bias. He will always maintain his viewpoint. Writers OLO can attest to this.

Lev, as always, clings desparately to any trash, no matter, how false and malicious it has proven to be, to verify his aberrant and ludicrous positions.

dane,

Horrific massacres have occurred throughout history ... undoubtedly will recur. You, apparently don’t know, or perhaps choose to ignore, what sets aside and distinguishes the Holocaust from all others. Study it in detail and you will understand. A benchmark in human history; it changed the world in every way - in approaches to philosophy, the arts, literature, the sciences, our relationship with peoples, new disciplines have arisen, and on and on ... Perception of the world will never be the the same. I suggest you read authors like Ernest van Alphen.

Terence Des Pres:

“The Holocaust shall be represented, in its totality, as a unique event ... above or below, or apart from history”.

The Holocaust occurred only some 60 years ago in what was considered the most civilized and cultured country in Europe; That alone should give you pause for thought ...

Compassion other suffering ...

Jews were in the forefront of the Civil Rights movement (read Martin Luther King). More Jews, per capita of white South Africans, were involved in the Anti-apartheid movement ... Mandella stated: “ I owe them (Jews) a debt of gratitude”.

In every disaster zone, man-made or natural, Israelis are on the ground, setting up camp hospitals and sending in medical supplies. Iranians were extremely angry when their president refused to admit Israeli teams after a massive earthquake.

During the Balkan war, Israel was the first to offer sanctuary and citizenship to Muslim refugees. Israel provided citizenship to Vietnamese boat-people refused asylum in every other part of the world

Russian Pravda reports that Rwanda educators are seeking advice from Holocaust survivors on how to cope with genocide.

cont ...

Israel donated $5m. in aid and equipment to victims of Darfur genocide. An Israeli organisation - “Save Darfur”.

The Wolfson Medical Center, Israel, specializing in heart disease, has a program free of charge, “Save a Child’s Heart”:

"Over 30 percent of the children being treated by us come from Africa. But whether it's the refugees of Sudan, the poor from Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or any other nation worldwide we are here and ready to save lives. Every child deserves the best humanitarian medical treatment and we have both the medical professionals and facilities to get that job done."

Australian Jewish university students work with, and have contributed major benefits to an “adopted” group of our indigenous people.

Jews, as a people, are the same as other groups. They are no richer, nor poorer than the average Australian. Some are in the foreground, like those of Chinese origin. Jews and Chinese both share a common feature - dedication to study and hard work.

There are problems in Israel - every country has them. Israelis are the first to admit this. Israel is under constant siege, and daily risk of war; this necessarily causes urgency ...

Whilst people tend not openly to express their prejudice of other groups, Jews, ALWAYS virulently cop it - no matter how careful and moderate sounding the rhetoric. After all, they are the historical scapegoats - the manifestation of why things have gone wrong - the embodiment of evil - historically they deserve it don’t they? (sarcasm, Lev) And ... not the least, it is safe to attack them ...

dane,

As you can see, people like Keith, Marilyn, Lev, and some others here OLO, reinforce the imperative why Jews must have a homeland of their own.

Danielle,

Once again you are engaging in ad hominen attacks. If you claim I use "false and malicious" material that is "proven" as such, please prove it.

1) You claimed that the UN report said there was no massacres in Jenin in 2002. I have actually provided the report itself. Is the UN report "false and malicious"? Is the Jenin Inquiry "false and malicious"?

2) Is it wrong for historians to accumulate and then interpret facts? Have I provided false information from the interview from Dr. Ilan Pappé? Is it "false and malicious" that Dr. Pappé used direct Arabic source material which Benny Morris cannot read?

3) What are there statements of falsehood in Dr. Finklestein's book? Is it true that his parents were both holocaust survivors?

4) Is it true that the explosive tonnage and damage fired from Israel into Gaza far exceeds those fired in the other direction?

5) Is it true that Israel controls Gaza's airspace, territorial water, offshore maritime access, population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports as well as the tax system?

There are plenty of opportunities for you here. However I must acknowledge that you seem incapable of even admitting error on the most trivial instances. The language was harsh but Keith's assesment of you (Feb 8) is quite accurate.

Israel's merits are many. It is the most secular, democratic State in the region. That does not mean however that I will turn a blind eye to the apartheid system of hafrada that exists between Israel and the occupied territories it controls, its military aggressiveness, the utterly abhorent policy of collective punishment that it metes out against Palestinians and Lebanese, and the risible religious-ethnic laws within that state.

The fact is that I want to extend secular democracy within Israel and to all those people who live under its control - and ensure that Jews have a homeland in Palestine. There is nothing wrong with this proposal.

Spy

You quite made my day with this;

'Well, sorry to wake you up Keith but Israel already has extended the hand of friendship - it has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan.'

I know, they were forced on a reluctant Israel by the US and the USSR after the world tettered on the brink of nuclear holocast in the aftermath of one of those nasty mid east wars. I can recall it was Sadat who instigated the move towaerds peace. Jordan joined in. But please note, and here's the part I loved, and which you've unwittingly acknowledged.

The peace was arrived at after Israel was required to quit all occupied Egyptian and Jordanian lands.

Now do you see the problem stopping the peace with Israel, the occuppied West Bank and Gaza and Palestinians?

I had a good old laugh since you never ever acknowledge openly the problem with peace is Israel's resolve to continue it's occupation, supression and land stealing settlements.

We have all witnessed Christians kneeling and prostrating themselves before a salt damp mark on a wall, or before a
sunray striking a fence-post at a certain time at noon. They devoutly swear these are apparitions of the Virgin Mary come to them.

Lev also prostates himself before, and swears on the pure motives of salt damp marks and sunlight striking fence posts - imbedded in his rhetoric for the disposal of Israel. Whether Palestinian, Israeli or other, peoples are mere cyphers to him.

Hard, bitter, unpalitable evidence proves Lev’s ideas would result in destruction of all Israeli Jews, perhaps all Christians. Definitely all Gypsies, Druze, Bedhouin and Ba’Hi ... peoples brutally persecuted in Arab lands and Iran. Israel, too, is their homeland, their protection, their sanctuary.

Apply Lev’s theories of social engineering to Iraq ...

cont ...

Keith supported the Iraq invasion. What was his concern for the Iraqi people? At best his judgement is wanting. His knowledge of ME peoples, politics, economics, religions, loyalties, tribal structures, mores etc. etc. is non-existent.

Israel/Palestinian politics, indeed international law, is completely beyond him.

Despite all evidence available, Keith repeatedly confirms he doesn’t understand international law; what constitutes an internationally recognised border, what constitutes an armistice line; indeed, what has occurred ... or, what is actually happening. Keith has no comprehension at all of these issues; not even at the most elemental level.

Keith has proven it is mentally impossible for someone like him to move beyond his level of “confirmation bias”.

Israel’s future and decisions are Israel’s alone.

The Palestinian people's future and decisions is theirs alone.

People of good-will wish them well.

Lev,

Israel does not occupy Gaza at present so please spare me the "they invaded the following year" line.

As for your contining calls for a secular, single-state solution, I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's highly unworkable in the short term. Your calls for equal rights for all groups are admirable but unrealistic. Do you honestly believe that a future Palestinian majority in a single-state would agree to protect the rights of the Jewish minority? I'd suggest that after 60 years of fighting the Israelis the Palestinians might feel like it was their turn to do a little bullying. In short, it would probably lead to the extermination of the Jewish population.

Keith,

"I had a good old laugh since you never ever acknowledge openly the problem with peace is Israel's resolve to continue it's occupation, supression and land stealing settlements."

Is that the same Israel that resolved to GIVE UP land in order to make peace with Egypt and Jordan? The fact is that Israel has and will return occupied territories in return for a GUARANTEE OF SECURITY from its neighbours - eg. Egypt and Jordan. Put simply, land in exchange for a guarantee of non-aggession. Israel will NOT give up land if doing so would mean that it faces an increased threat. It tried unilateral withdrawal from Gaza and got rockets in return.

Like you, I support the return of the West Bank to the Palestinians. However, you are naive in the extreme if you think that simply handing back the West Bank NOW would suddenly lead to peace. It would simply turn the West Bank into a launching pad for attacks on Israel, like Gaza is now. Hamas and other groups want all of Israel, not just the West Bank and Gaza. Until they give up that ambition and accept Israel there will be no peace.

Danielle,

As I suspected, you do not have even one fact against anything I have stated. You had the opportunity to disprove any of the factual propositions I stated, and you demonstrably failed to do so.

Instead you continue the racist assertion that hafrada is the necessary policy to keep the Jews and Muslims separated, with the latter dominating the former.

Contrary to these claims history does tell us that Jews and Muslims are quite capable of living in the same region; especially in secular democratic states. Every system of government, every law, every regulation is a form of social engineering; it's a matter of choosing the right one.

Spy,

Israel does not occupy Gaza in the same way that prison guards to do not occupy a prisoner's cell. They determine what goes in and out and they can invade anytime they want to. Again not one of the facts I have stated has shown to be incorrect.

Do I think that a single state should be introduced tomorrow? No, of course not. There is a transitional programme. It involves universalising human rights throughout the territories, gradually ending the legal codes that differentiate between ethno-religous groups. It means ending the programme of 'collective punishment' for individual transgressions.

Spy says:

"As for your continuing calls for a secular, single-state solution, I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's highly unworkable in the short term. Your calls for equal rights for all groups are admirable but unrealistic. Do you honestly believe that a future Palestinian majority in a single-state would agree to protect the rights of the Jewish minority? I'd suggest that after 60 years of fighting the Israelis the Palestinians might feel like it was their turn to do a little bullying. In short, it would probably lead to the extermination of the Jewish population."

I support a democratic and secular Palestine for all who want to live there. Why would Palestinians kill Jews? If the idea of a single state solution catches fire among the Palestinian and Jewish people, then that will not happen. I agree this idea of a single state is not going to happen in the short term, but then again when we look at seemingly entrenched positions and realities in history the truth appears to be that "all that is solid melts into air".

My own view is that this unifying idea of a democratic and secular Palestine will come out of workers' struggles in the region against their own dictatorships and bosses. (Such struggles could see a move beyond the medievalism of the various religions in the area and to a socialist alternative. And no, I am not advocating stalinism, which was the defeat of socialism.)

The apartheid regime in South Africa (a regime with eerie echoes in Israel/Palestine) represssed the majority for almost fifty years before it fell. There was no mass slaughter in reprisal.

Finally it was always predictable, but those of us who want to treat this subject seriously and who disagree with the legitimacy of Israel are inevitably branded anti-semitic. Oppositon to the ideology of Zionism is not anti-semitic. To call us anti-semites is an alternative to rational discussion and argument, something many on the Israeli or pro-Israeli right wish to avoid.

Danielle,

'The Palestinian people's future and decisions is theirs alone.'

Then how come their decision to elect an Hamas government wasn't successful.

Then how come the Palestiniasn people don't have their own state?

Then how come Israeli's are occupying their lands?

Then how come Israeli's are stealing their land.

Now who is suffering from an ability to 'move beyond (his) a level of “confirmation bias”.'

If you weren't so blatantly stupid I'd feel sorry for you.

Spy,

You see the problem now don't you?

The Israelis were forced into an agreement with Jordan and Egypt but no such situation exists with the Palestinians. So it becomes logical, after offers of security in exchange for a return to the pre-'67 borders that Israel is not doing anything to encourage trust and a settlement to the problem. Add to that, that even while peace negotiations are in process the Israelis continue to expand their illegal settlements on the West Bank and well, ... only a blind Ehud couldn't see whose actions show they are resolved to be against peace.

I fail to understand why you show trust in Jordan and Egypt to continue a peace but do not trust the Palestinians to undertake the same. Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians.

Falling back to the excuse of the threat to Israeli security, while accepting the workability of an enduring peace with Egypt and Jordan, implies you think an independant Palestinian state would be successful in invading and destroying Israel.

That spy would be patently beyond reality...don't you think?

Lev wrote:

"They determine what goes in and out and they can invade anytime they want to"

Yes, there are aspects which Israel continues to exercise control over. There are genuine security reasons for controlling a border with a neighbouring territory. These controls are tightened and loosened depending on the security situation. Links between the two have continued since the settlements were dismantled and the IDF was withdrawn. Israel continues to provide many basic necessities for Gaza - eg electricity - ironically, the same things Israel provides are then used to mount attacks against it.

Keith wrote:

"I fail to understand why you show trust in Jordan and Egypt to continue a peace but do not trust the Palestinians to undertake the same. Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians."

Yes, I'll explain. The Palestinians have Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa and other militant groups that are committed to Israel's destruction. Their goals have been stated on this forum and elsewhere many times before. They want more than Gaza and the West Bank, they want all of Israel. For them the occupation is not the issue. The issue is the presence of Jews and the state of Israel in the region.

Hamas et al would use an independent Palestinian state as a launching pad for attacks on Israel. This is exactly what they did with Gaza and what would happen with the West Bank if Israel withdrew now.

"implies you think an independant Palestinian state would be successful in invading and destroying Israel"

No, with their current capabilities militant groups lack the firepower to destroy Israel so I don't think this. But they would certainly have the ability to damage Israel and cause significant casualties.

Should Israel expose itself to this situation by withdrawing from the West Bank NOW? No. If militant groups recognise Israel and disarm then it's a different story. Israel will give land in return for security guarantees but no such guarantees exist at the moment.

Spy,

The Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa and other militant groups all have a presence in Egypt and Jordan. They lack general active support in those countries because the populations are not oppressed nor their countries occupied nor is their land being stolen. You must recognise the fact these groups came to exist and their resulting prominance only as a result of the occupation. Their extremist nature is only supported because of the on going Israeli meddling, suppression, occupation and land stealing.

Why do you think Hamas etc won't respond to the wishes of all Palestinians? I can show you where they have responded to the wider community views. Their last election manifesto where they went against there charter was a perfect example. If the Palestinians desire peace with Israel and if concrete evidence of such peace-making is exhibited by Israel then the support for these militants would decrease substiantially.

Yours is the view that perpretrates the problem ... you cannot accept negotiations with Palestinians without accepting the extremists would lose support if Israel was in any way showeing it was genuinely seeking peace with the Palestinians. And again you've fallen back to the unrea;stic defence of threats to Israels security. You seem to think only Israel shouldn't be subject to the dangers we all face today and you use it as an excuse to continue the occupation, suppression and land stealing.

The author writes: "Even though Jews had been persecuted in Europe for centuries...." Although my father was Jewish, I still don't know why the Jews have been so persecuted for so long in so many parts of the world. Can anyone please explain?

Keith & Lev,

These issues have been covered over and over again, see:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6475&page=0#1
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6426&page=0#95452
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6282&page=0#9
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6282&page=0#94750
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6282&page=0#93166
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5939&page=0#85630

Incidentally, Lev, it does you no credit to misrepresent yourself. The level of abuse both you and Keith sink to is indicative of your intelligence, prejudice, and complete lack on
understanding of the issue being discussed. Your panic is patent ...

Bernie Masters,

You will need to read history as to why Jews have been vilified. In Australia, prejudice appears to emerge from two types of people:

1) Raised in an anti-Semitic environment and too brain-dead to evaluate their indoctrination. But find it fun to collectively bay after a certain group, like dogs chasing a car.

2) People who have been disempowered, often victims themselves; lacked courage, perhaps opportunity, to confront the issue and grow. They select a vulnerable victim upon whom to vent their hatred, resentment, and anger. Psychologists refer to this as “displacement” or “scapegoating”. Most often their victim is the Jewish people and/or Israel ... This is very safe ...

Danielle,

Earlier in this thread you claimed I was using "false and malicious" material that is "proven" as such. I asked you, on a factual basis, to prove it. You could not.

Now you are claiming that I am misrepresenting myself, that I have a "complete lack of understanding of the issue being discussed" and apparently my "panic is patent".

I ask you the same again. On a factual basis, prove it.

Bernie,

Danielle has actually given some correct reasons in her response to you, however it goes a little deeper than she suggests (indeed, she is describing symptoms, not causes).

Two methods that people have been differentiated in history against their common humanity is by religious exclusiveness and racial exclusiveness (both real and imaginary).

European Jews copped a double whammy in the twentieth century as they were accused not only of being collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus (and therefore an enemy religion of the worst kind), but also because they were accused being of a different racial group and therefore of a different mentality - the latter was quite ridiculous, only a minority of Jews were and are Semites.

The racist von Hellwald summarises the two-fold discriminatory approach:

"The Jews are not merely a different religious community, but—and this is to us the most important factor—ethnically an altogether different race. The European feels instinctively that the Jew is a stranger who immigrated from Asia."

Now one thing that should be recognised about such ideologies as that they themselves are no special province for any human group. In a moral and universal sense, legal discrimination on the basis of religion, ethnicity, culture is abhorrent as is the application of collective punishment against such groups.

It does not matter where it is from or who engages in it or even for what purpose. Such discrimination is morally and ethically wrong and must be opposed by all people who actually care about their own rights and the reciprocal rights of others.

Thanks for the comments, Lev. I'm no scholar of Jewish history but it seems to me that the Jewish people at times and in some countries were also socially and culturally exclusive from their fellow citizens. As well, there may also have been a strong element of jealousy on the part of their neighbours as the Jews have a (to me, positive) reputation for being astute and successful business people, hence the unflattering portrayal of Jews in The Merchant of Venice (Shakespeare was writing popular fiction just as most movies from the US today aim at being popular so that they can attract a paying audience) and in the Magna Carta.
My memories of my father's Jewish friends while I was growing up are all positive, hence why I'm so curious as to why the Jews appear to have been treated so badly so often in history. Maybe Jews in a free society like Western Australia's don't feel as strong a need to be as exclusive from their fellow citizens in such a situation.

Keith wrote: "Their extremist nature is only supported because of the on going Israeli meddling, suppression, occupation and land stealing."

I agree that these groups are able to generate support by pointing to the occupation. However, I'm not so sure that the end of the occupation would necessarily lead to the end of popular support for these groups. Let me give you an example. Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon - formed as a resistance group committed to driving Israel out of Lebanon. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. Hezbollah continued to function and to harrass Israel with cross-border raids, rocket attacks etc. It continues to have popular support in the south.

"You seem to think only Israel shouldn't be subject to the dangers we all face today and you use it as an excuse to continue the occupation, suppression and land stealing."

Keith, if you think that we all face the same dangers as Israel then you're either grossly overestimating the threats we face, or grossly underestimating the dangers Israel faces. The fact is that Israel is surrounded by Arab states which have a historical animosity towards it. Iran in particular wants Israel to be wiped off the map. Israel faces far more serious threats than most countries in the world.

Re: my point about withdrawal in return for a guarantee of security. You seem to think withdrawal should come first, let Israel suffer attacks in the meantime, then hope that the Palestinian radicals will gradually lose suppoirt and peace will eventually come. No country in its right mind would agree to such a deal and rightly so. My point is that Israel (or any other state in a similar situation) has a right to demand security guarantees in exchange for returning land.

Keith, you seem unable to accept that "Israel was in any way showeing it was genuinely seeking peace with the Palestinians." What about Gaza? Isn't handing back territory a sign of genuinely seeking peace?

Spy

You jump all over the place.

You point to Lebanon but ignore the Egypt and Jordan experience. Hezoballah is made up of Palestinian refugees from the camps of southern Lebanon and was formed to also drive Jews out of Palestine. The refugees would go home to Palestine if they were allowed by the Israeli's and Hezbollah's support would wane throughout the region. Hezbollah is actng against the occupation and had to defend Lebanon from Israeli aggression recently. Quite different to Egypt and Jordan.

Not a valid comparison... in fact it borders on dishonest.

'The fact is that Israel is surrounded by Arab states which have a historical animosity towards it. Iran in particular wants Israel to be wiped off the map.'

Let's see Israels neighbours are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian occupied territory. Iran is away past Syria and Iraq and hasn't the technology to attack Israel effectively. Syria has territory occupied by Israel and illegal settlements but couldn't be classed as at threat. Lebanon? You've got to be joking. Egypt and Jordan have a lasting peace with Israel or are they only pretending? Israel has locked down Gaza and exerts an illegal occupation and suppression of Palestine. So while these countries have a justifiable historical anomisity towards aggressive an Israel I might ask where is the threat of invasion?

Isreal has nuclear weapons and the support of the largest military power the world has ever seen.

Arrayed against this is a few terrorist organisations who employ a few home made rockets and suicide bombers. So I might ask how is Israel going to be destroyed?

The rest of the world sufferts threats and and suffered greater actions from terrorists than those facing and experienced by Isreal. Iran has also called for the elimination of the 'Great Satan' ... the USA... the US basically laughs at that threat... but not at the threats of terrorists

Yes withdrawal has to come in response to a guarantee of security. Why ever would you imagine resistance would cease while an occupation continues? Of course Israel has the right to demand guarantees in return for land. Isn't that what has been proposed but Israel refuses to hand back the land and while peace negotiations are underway even increases the illegal settlements. How would you react if missile and suicide bomber attacks increased while peace negotiations were taking place. You'd be livid and epileptic with rage and pointing to insincerity.

While Gaza isn't 'occupied' it isn't able to determine it's own affairs without Israeli interference or outlawed attacks on it's leadership and Palestinian inhabitants. When Israel handed back Gaza there followed free elections. The results Israel objected to. There followed invasions, assisinations and arrests and detention (Ongoing)of the elected representatives of the Palestinians. Is that 'a sign of genuinely seeking peace' by Israel?

No Spy your arguments are getting weaker and you keep falling back to that silly position of a general threat to Israels destruction.

"Contrary to these claims history does tell us that Jews and Muslims are quite capable of living in the same region; especially in secular democratic states."

Has this ever happened in an Islamic state? I would like to believe that it has.

Bernie Masters

Antisemitism is confined to Christian and Islamic nations. It just does not exist in any form in Hindu Buddhist or Confucian societies, and Jews have lived happily such places.

Why? It may be something to do with those two religions which believe that divine benefits are confined to their own supporters. The Asian religions, like Judaism allow for any good person to receive equal divine favours.

Keith asks

“Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians.”

Jews are barred from living in Egypt and Jordan. Palestinians are also barred from living in Egypt and Jordan (except those already in Egypt caged in camps)

Lev states

“Pappé can read Arabic and also used Arabic sources”

Indeed, he can. He used only Arabic sources for his version of “history”. He didn’t use any Israeli material, nor records from Israel.

Lev asks

“ What are there statements of falsehood in Dr. Finklestein's book? Is it true that his parents were both holocaust survivors?”

Finkelstein’s parents were both holocaust survivors. Enormous research is being undertaken on the effects of the Holocaust, not only on its survivors, but also the childen and grandchildren of survivors.

CAMERA: Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting

Norman Finkelstein’s Fraudulent Scholarship
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=169&x_article=985

Norman Finkelstein, Benny Morris and Peace not Apartheid
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1280

“Is it true that the explosive tonnage and damage fired from Israel into Gaza far exceeds those fired in the other direction? “

I will let others more knowledgable about ordnance answer this question. However, Israel, unlike terrorists from Gaza, never deliberately target civilians, especially hospitals and schools; then there are the suicide bombers. Terrorists target Israelis indiscriminately whether they be Jews, Arab Muslims, or any other groups.

Lev,

You have studiously avoided the increasingly dire, current situation of Palestinians killing other Palestinians

Apply your social theory to Iraq ... after all ... this is now the ideal and ready place to employ your experiment of social engineering. Is it not?

Danielle,

I have read the links you provided. I do not think the CAMERA article has shown specific errors and indeed are quite deceptive from the outset.

They claim that "In fact, many Jewish intellectuals supported the Jewish state before 1967" which contrasts to Finklestein's actual quote (i.e., they're actually trying to change the proposition) and provide a quote from Albert Einstein as an example.

Not only is it questionable whether Albert Einstein was an intellectual (usually reserved for those in the field of social inquiry), in the quotation from the Princeton Herald 1944 he does not support Israel. Further, Einstein was well and truly dead (1955) by 1967 (the Finklestein quote says "all the Jewish intellectuals who are now fanatical stalwarts of the State of Israel, until 1967 there were only two public Jewish intellectuals who are publicly identified as supporting Israel") and finally, despite CAMERA's rather wicked misuse of Finklestein's orginal assesment, it is also clear from the quote that Einstein is not supporting an Jewish state as they would want it.

Please try to read the quote carefully; and watch how CAMERA changes the words and meaning of what Finklestein and Einstein wrote.

Likewise it is false when you claim that Pappé used only Arabic sources and no Israeli sources in his book, 'A History of Modern Palestine'. This comment amazes me. It clearly indicates that you haven't actually read the book.

I have actually read it. Contrary to your lie, it is heavily referenced with original source material in Arabic, Hebrew and several European languages. It uses material from a variety of State (including Israel) and non-state sources.

I understand Danielle that you, your mother and your father were victims of the desire for an ethnically and religous pure state, of discrimatory laws against the same and of the application of collective punishment.

It is tragic that you cannot transcend your particular experience into a general one and realise that sometimes the victims also end up engaging in the very crimes committed against them. In all kindness, I think you need a therapist.

Lev

Why should someone who disagrees with you need a therapist? That statement was not worthy of you.

In my case my family were not victims of the desire for an ethnically and religiously pure state, I am the fourth generation to have lived in Australia and have never personally experienced antisemitism, but I agree with much of what Danielle is saying. The one sided treatment of Israel in the press and media is to me an alarming and new thing for Australia. For fair reporting on Israel I find it necessary to use an Asian newspaper. What is happening now with the Australian news media alarms me.

I don't mind fair criticism of Israel but there is a lot to criticise in the behaviour of Arab countries and in the attitude of the Palestinians.

Keith,

At the heart of the disagreement over how to move towards peace is the question of who should do what first. For me, the onus is on radical Palestinian groups to accept Israel and disarm. Then Israel will exchange land for a guarantee of security. You, on the other hand, want Israel to give back land first and then you feel that the Palestinians will live quietly next to Israel. I don't share your optimism. I've pointed to Gaza as an example of what happens when land is simply returned without first securing a guarantee of security. Why would it be any different with the West Bank?

"When Israel handed back Gaza there followed free elections. The results Israel objected to. There followed invasions, assisinations and arrests and detention (Ongoing)of the elected representatives of the Palestinians. Is that 'a sign of genuinely seeking peace' by Israel?"

Israel gave back Gaza. What did it get in return? It got Hamas as the elected government plus a barrage of rockets! In response to those rockets it defended itself (which is precisely what the original OLO article was about). You tell me what came first? You tell me you'd stand by quietly and do nothing if your neighbour was lobbing missiles at you?

Sorry Keith, the Palestinians had a great opportunity when they got Gaza. This was their trial run for a Palestinian state. Sadly that opportunity was hijacked by radical groups.

With the Gaza experience in mind would you simply hand back the West Bank and hope the Palestinians go about their business quietly? I wouldn't.

Lev,

You are member of a political party. You have political ambitions - you already admit to influencing party policy.

You argue against a Jewish homeland, a haven for the Jewish people, with all the sophistry of which Goebel’s would be proud.

When I provided substantiated information that Arabs enjoy equal civil rights with Israelis - education, welfare, membership of the Knesset, representation, freedom of the press, etc. you called me “a lying, immoral troll and a parody of a human being”.

You are a stated member of an anti-Israel group; undoubtedly canvas for them.

I remarked that Finklestein’s work is considered THE text for anti-Semites. I haven’t read it. I was warned off it by two academics - experts in the ME ... reviews of Finklestein’s work support their advice.

Obviously, you then trawled looking for information to use against me. You “hint” at something, not accurately. You attempt a comparison between myself and nazis, further “demolishing” me by stating I need psychological treatment.

OLO members will see an “historical” pattern.

Lev, are you the future face of Australian politics?

You never acknowledged my concern for Palestinians. I’ve stated that Israeli settlements should move back from the green line (an armistice line with Jordan incidentally; it’s not a border). You deny the right of Israel to defend itself (of different peoples), from anihiliation.

Palestinians are Arab and should have an independent state of their own. With cross-fertilisation of Israeli know-how and Palestinian energy, a Palestinian state could be the show-piece of all Arab states. Necessarily Palestinian and Israeli cultures are different - and should be celebrated. Palestinians are in a desparate situation. Both they and Israelis are suffering from the terrorists in their midst. You steadfastly ignore this.

The appalling consequences caused by colonial interests carving up territories, indiscriminately forcing disparate groups together, such as in Iraq, should be a salutory lesson to all.

Keith states

“Israel has nuclear weapons and the support of the largest military power the world has ever seen. “

Indeed. Israel could bring an immediate end to all its problems. Why doesn’t it?

Danielle,

It is true I am a member of a political party and have in the past been heavily involved in party policy both an executive member of policy committees and through State conference resolutions. However, I had little interest in political ambitions past that.

Contrary to your lie - and you know it is a lie - I have argued consistently for a Jewish homeland, but against a Jewish state. You seem mentally incapable of distinguishing between the two - and as a result erroneously claim that the ODSPI is an "anti-Israel" group.

Likewise you seem to think that I support a "One State Solution" in all circumstances, which is very wrong (I do however universally support secular democracy and civil rights). I support a one state solution in Palestine, in contrast to the colonialist two-state proposal, because that is a practical solution for the reasons Dr. Karmi has elaborated in "Married to Another Man: Israel's Dilemma in Palestine" (http://imeu.net/news/article006702.shtml). I have considered the arguments for and against one-state and two state solutions and found the former superior to the latter.

As the greatest Jewish social theorist of all time, Hannah Arendt, stated:

"A federated state, finally could be the natural stepping stone for any later, greater federated structure in the Near East and the Mediterranean area...The real goal of the Jews in Palestine is the building up of a Jewish homeland. This goal must never be sacrificed to the pseudo-sovereignty of a Jewish state."

Of course, Hannah Arendt, knew the difference between a Jewish homeland and a Jewish state.

When it was substantially shown to you that your claim that (non-Jewish) Arabs enjoy equal civil rights with Israeli's was plain wrong in both a formal legal and structural sense, you simply refused to acknowledge it. Instead you engaged in ad hominen complaints against the authors and publishers or - in the case of marriage - argued a "separate but (religiously) equal" line.

It is around that point that I start to question your ability to engage on a level of morally maturity and cognitive sanity.

cont...

cont...

I don't suggest therapy because you disagree with me; when it comes down to it, everyone disagrees with everyone on something. I recommend therapy because this is there is a point where you cease to act like a rational moral agent.

When you can't even admit to making even trivial errors, such as the claim that Israel was #1 in the world for press freedom. When you blatantly lie, such as claiming that Pappé "used only Arabic sources... He didn’t use any Israeli material, nor records from Israel." When you decide not to address the propositions of another, but rather attack their nationality or spiritual associations - such as the extraordinary bigotry you displayed towards Uzi Ornan. When you make remarkable trivially false claims like: "However, Israel, unlike terrorists from Gaza, never deliberately target civilians..."

What sort of person does this? Either someone who is deliberately wicked, or someone who has been harmed in some manner that distorts their thinking. I suspect the latter.

You explained to the world with your posts on OLO on July 7, 2007 what has happened to you. "My mother and I, a toddler, were arrested by the SS, placed in a camp...". Your father "was arrested, placed in a slave camp, then sent to Auschwitz and gassed on arrival" ... the "entire family, over 50 members, from babies, small children, to the elderly were gassed."

Seeking religious-ethnic purity in a State, establishing exclusive laws, regulations and practises which systematically empower one group over another, of engaging in 'collective punishment' against those who engage in terrorist activities... these actions will not protect Jews against what you mistakingly call "anti-semitism" (Arabs are Semites as are some Jews; the word you're stratching for is Judenhass). These are not the features of a 'homeland'; these are the features of bigotry, of apartheid and worse, and can only result in the most monstrous behaviour. Either human rights are universal or they are not rights at all. One day, before your death, I sincerely hope you come to that understanding.

Lev,

You made the point that Pappe used Arabic sources - why should you then require me to confirm it. Do you need a little pat on the head. Pappe, however, as a post-modernist historian, has misrepresented facts - these are well documented.

Uzi, whilst Jewish, is a member of the Cannanite movement - revisit what has been written OLO. He wants everything reverting back to the Cannanite "period" including borders. He wants ONLY the original Hebrew tongue spoken, he wants all things Jewish expunged. As Islam post-dated the Jews, this would also mean all matters Islamic. Also, he discussed Israel as it was quite some years ago - things have moved quite a lot forward since then.

Revisit the OLO discussion about Arab and ALL other's civil rights in Israel. Israel is #1 freedom of press in the MIDDLE EAST (oops); not 59th as YOU state. Where do you get 59th? I let that one pass without questioning you ...? "Freedom of press" is accorded by region. However, revisit Freedom House's discussion of Israel, its freedom of the press and civil rights ALL.

I still can't get your logic as the marriage being unequal in Israel. You get stuck on this, like a needle in a record groove. I can't understand from where you are coming. Nor can others. Israel recognises all religious marriages - be they Jew, Muslim, Christian, whatever. They don't have civil marriage - not even for Jews. However, "anyone" can go offshore and have a civil marriage and return, where it will be recognized. (I don't know the logic in this, but it is equal for all). Civil divorce for all, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, whatever is recognised.

cont ...

Homosexuals/lesbians are recognised in Israel. Is this your problem, Lev? For g-d's sake don't answer ...

All issues debated on this site have been discussed and answered on those links provided. I am not going to repeat these ad nauseum. Nor would others here want it.

You omitted to add that my mother was an Australian Catholic; I was born in France; was raised and have a sound education in both Anglicanism and Catholicism.

My horror at what is occurring in Palestinian areas is due to my witnessing for seven years, the attrocities committed in Malay during the Communist Terrorist Emergency. Terrorists, are of the same ilk - they kill and terrorise their own, as readily as they kill any perceived enemy.

I taught Modern History at uni. during the time "restricted" records were released concerning the Holocaust from different countries. Jews MUST have a homeland of their own. British visas granted to German Jews (and Jews in other countries, later over-run by nazis) were overturned overnight when Britain entered the war; including Australian visas. These Jews went to gas-chambers still waiting for their visas to arrive. Britain was not the only country to do this. During the hysteria of "reds under the beds", Russian Jews being killed and persecuted, were denied entry to non-communist countries. Fortunately, Israel was there.

In times of emergency, political conflict, and war between nations, nationality will always supercede Jewish identity. Even when it is KNOWN that Jews are being persecuted and murdered in that particular country. History repeatedly shows that it is imperative that Jews, as a people, have a homeland, a haven, of their own. Every other peoples do.

I am not returning to this discussion.

Danielle,

I pointed out that Pappé used Arabic sources - in contrast to Benny Morris' accounts, remember? Then you lied and said he only used Arabic sources.

Now you have bigoted lies about Uzzi Ornan and the Canaanite movement. It is a lie to say he wants "everything" to reverted back to the Canaanite period. It is a lie to say that he wants only the Hebrew tongue spoken. It is a lie that he wants all things Jewish expunged. It is a lie he wants to do the same to Islam.

The Canaanite movement, expressed in the "Epistle to the Hebrew Youth" (1943) by Uriel Shelach (you could try reading it, although you may have to understand Hebrew), was an appeal to Hebrew mother-tongue speakers to disaffiliate from Judiasm as their primary identity in Palestine.

Uzzi Ornan, associated with the movement, was also a leader of the "League Against Religious Coercion" and most recently a leader of the "I am Israeli" movement, which seeks to drop the nationality requirements on formal government registration or allowing one to include "Israeli" as an option. This key element of the article originally presented to you - although 17 years old - is still an ongoing issue with the most recent appeal in October last year (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466379,00.html)

When you made the ridiculous claim that Israel ranked #1 in the world for freedom of the press, I pointed out almost straight away that this was wrong and it was actually ranked #59. Now four months later, I must point it out to you again. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=271&year=2006

It is evident why you don't understand why I have a problem with marriage in Israel. It's because I am a secularist. It is because I think the option of a civil marriage should be available in all states.

"I am not returning to this discussion."

That's what you said last time (Nov 14). That too was a lie.

Spy

This is fairly typical.

You: 'Israel will give land in return for security guarantees but no such guarantees exist at the moment.'

Me: Of course Israel has the right to demand guarantees in return for land. Isn't that what has been proposed but Israel refuses to hand back the land and while peace negotiations are underway even increases the illegal settlements.

You: 'For me, the onus is on radical Palestinian groups to accept Israel and disarm. Then Israel will exchange land for a guarantee of security.'

Good God your objection re guaranrtees was overcome and then you introduced a new condition.

This has gone on for 40 years. Enough. How can anyone debate with you seriously... you keep moving the goal posts.

And at the same time you arrograntly demand the Palestinians disarm. To be fair why don't you expect both sides disarm? Just take a look at peace-loving Dannielle suggesting Israel use it's nuclear weapons to 'solve' it's problems.
All that needs is a few more maniac's in the Kessnet.

What happens if Jewish Israelis to become a minority in Israel or Iran decides to solve it's problems in the same manner once it has it's bomb?

And why don't you ever address the expansion of the illegal Israeli settlements and their impediment to peace?

Keith,

I did not move the goalposts. No new conditions were added. Any guarantee of security is necessarily dependent on radical groups disarming and recognising Israel. Without that, there is no possibility of a guarantee of security. Please explain how YOU see a guarantee of security without those elements.

I did not demand that the Palestinian Authority disarm. I called for the radical elements to disarm. This is connected to my point about a guarantee of security. Israel itself recognises the need for the official Palestinian security forces to be armed and in fact provides weapons and training to them.

Settlements are a major obstacle to peace. I agree completely. My view is that Israel hopes to retain the major settlements in and around Jerusalem. This will probably mean that when any peace deal is finally reached the Palestinians will not get 100% of the West Bank. One of the compromise proposals is to give the Palestinians land EQUIVALENT to the territory of the West Bank - this means that some areas where are currently part of Israel proper might actually become part of a future Palestinian state. The areas in question are inside Israel near the north western edge of the West Bank. We will have to wait and see what happens with this proposal.

keith

I know that you do not mean any malice in what you say and like me enjoy a good argument.

But would you like to be faced against an enemy who actually presented a children's TV program with puppet characters who extolled the virtues of martyrdom, and suicide bombing? If Israel really controlled the occupied territories surely they would have acted against such a sickening abuse of children? And why do you continually single Israel for land stealing when the Arabs did the same? A lot of Jewish communities were established for 100 t0 200 years or more and Jews killed and their properties taken by Arabs. Why be so one sided? How long do people whose ancestors have bought land and lived in it for generations have to be there before they are considered to be legitimate owners?

Lev

Your argument has become so personal, and you rely on a small number of opinions which you seem to consider gospel. I do not get the impression that you have really thought it through.

You talk about discrimination towards Israeli Arab Muslims, be more specific, they get a vote have elected representatives in Parliament, and are subject to the same legal system, what more do you want?

And how do you think a Jewish homeland could exist with a Muslim majority? How many Muslim dominated lands give equal rights to non-Muslims? How many are stable functioning democracies. In how many Islamic states are Muslims allowed to change their religion? Some have Sharia law including stonings killing of homosexuals and forcing women into uncomfortable clothing. Do you really think that the Israelis, many of whom are Christians would accept that?

Logic,

What do I want? I want an end to all religious states. I want to see the right for candidates to nominate who wish to change the basic law that Israel must be a Jewish state. I want to see residency rights granted to those in the occupied territories who marry Israelis. I want an end to all laws and regulations which differentiate on the basis of religion. I want to see secular marriages. I want the end the 10 out of 22 seats in the Israel Land Administration allocated to the Jewish National Fund and the ending of discriminatory lease practises. I want to see a "right of return" for Arabs displaced from their lands in greater Israel. I want to see and end of the noose of imports and exports imposes on Gaza and the West Bank. I want the apartheid wall torn down.

I want to see Yerushaláyim the capital of Palestine, a homeland for all who wish to call it such, a beacon unto nations. The fact that you do not trust the ability of non-Jewish Arabs to live in a secular and democratic society and that you're fearful of their "majority rule" indicates how far you have to go in your own heart.

Spy

How can mighty Israel demand the disarming of extremists when mighty Israel arms and protects and steals land for it's illegal settlers?

How can mighty Israel demand a stop to resistance while it refuses to cease it's illegal occupation, it's unlawful detentions and it's collective punishments ... especially the one when a people elected their representatives and mighty Israel interfered?

Tell me why mighty Israel refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of Palestine?

Why do you people now try to drive a wedge between the Palestinians of Gaza and the Palestinians of the other occupied territories. Just because Israel abandoned, under duress, it's settlements in Gaza and withdrew it's storntroops from that territory doesn't mean Israel has ended it's occupation of all the territories. Such an argument that 'look what Israel got in return for giving back Gaza' is totally diashonest. It tries to create a myth that the Palestinians of Gaza are somehow different from other Palestinians.

But ahhhh such is the workings and method of the traditional Israeli propaganda machine.

Why don't you blokes wake up to yourselves? The rest of the world is becoming increasingly aware of the methods of the Israeli bulls..t artists.

And besides even George Bush made it clear the impediment to peace is the settlements and they need to be removed. Remember his recent trip to Israel. His demand and counsel was met with the usual Israeli silence and intransience. You blokes had better hope John McCain wins the next election because he will be easier to deal with as he will be much more understanding in helping the Israelis leave the occupied territories. The other blokes will simply withdraw military support unless Israel acts to end it's agression.

And that option might just appear now that it is clear, to quote Rice's words after the debacle of Lebanon, 'now we will see just who wants peace in the middle east.'

End the occupation, after 40 years it's obvious it isn't working to ensure Israeli security nor to promote peace ... such violence is only causing more violence.

Keith,

"Tell me why mighty Israel refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of Palestine?"

Israel refused to recognise Hamas in Gaza because Hamas refuses to recognise Israel and seeks to destroy it. Let me remind you that the Quartet and virtually all the international community also refuses to recognise Hamas and boycotted it too. Please explain why the international community should grant legitimacy and recognition to a group such as Hamas?

"How can mighty Israel demand the disarming of extremists when mighty Israel arms and protects and steals land for it's illegal settlers?"

Keith, Israel negotiates with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. It recognises these moderates as the official representatives of the Palestinians. It arms and trains the Palestinian Authority security forces. Extremist groups opposed to the Fatah-aligned Palestinian Authority are trying to derail the peace process. Israel and Fatah are trying to control and disarm these groups. Please explain what is wrong with trying to disarm extremists.

I've given my views on the settlements as an impediment to peace in an earlier post. This is one area in which we seem to agree that Israel is hindering peace. However, you fail to acknowledge that BOTH sides bear responsibility for prolonging this conflict. You seek to lay all the blame at Israel's doorstep. This is unbalanced and unfair.

Keith, Israel has a right to defend itself against rockets coming from Gaza. Do you accept this? Had there been no rockets Israel would've left Gaza to its own devices.

"End the occupation, after 40 years it's obvious it isn't working to ensure Israeli security nor to promote peace ... such violence is only causing more violence."

Keith, actually Israeli security IS better protected by having a military presence in the West Bank. Without that presence radical groups would have a much easier time attacking Israeli targets. This is why Israel will not withdraw until it has a guarantee of security

Spy

Your arguments are circular
'Israel will not withdraw until it has a guarantee of security'

Guarantees have been given so why doesn't Israel
1. Dismantle the settlements
then
2. Cease it's occupation.

The Hamas Government should be recognised. It was elected legitmately by the people of Palestine. It's election manifesto expressed it's intention towards Israel. That's it's mandate. That's how things are in Western Liberal Democracies. Israel doesn't agree with our way of doing things.
Those in the West who agree with Israel will eventually recognise and correct the error.

Bush's latest pronouncement re illegal settlements is an indication that process is begining. In Liberal Democracies when errors are made it takes time but usually doesn't involve rockets, violence, wars or 40 year occupations to correct errors of judgememnt.

Israel needs heed that history.

'Israel negotiates with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. It recognises these moderates as the official representatives of the Palestinians.'

It doesn't matter who Israel thinks is the official representatives of the Palestinians. Israel is not negotiating with the legitimately elected representatives of the Palestinians. In fact many of the legitmately elected representatives of the Palestinians languish, chargeless and trialless in Israel detention/concentration camps.

Do you really expect me to believe the Palestinians have negotiated or are going to negotiate away their rights to their own land and Jerusulem?

If there was no occupation there would be no rockets.

Why do you persist in trying to perpretrate the myth of the destruction of Israel and that the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza somehow are separate nations?
Your arguments are based on those really very stupid premises.

'...actually Israeli security IS better protected by having a military presence in the West Bank.'

Here spy is where you exemplify and have expressed the cause of the problem in a nutshell.

Spy, actuallythe best guarantee of security is peace coupled with social and commercial interaction.

These two ideas and preferences underline and highlight only Israel's perpetration of the conflict...and it's divergence from our Western Liberal traditions.

... and don't yell, ... it's rude.

Lev,

To confirm your profile of me as a lying, wicked, evil, psychopath (rather a tautology), thus sharing my identity with a heavy concentration of criminals, among whom are serial killers, Ted Bundy, and cannibal-murderer Jeffrey Dahmer, I return once more ... Not to debate you nor keith - as a mere woman, devoid of testicles, “how dare I” - but just to add a few tiny comments, and contribute a few sites.

Keith, you state:

Q. “Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians.”

A. JEWS ARE BANNED FROM LIVING IN EGYPT AND JORDAN.

“Israel has nuclear weapons and the support of the largest military power the world has ever seen. “

Keith ... as you couldn’t answer this question, I did so for you ...

Indeed. Israel could bring an immediate end to all its problems. Why doesn’t it?

MORAL SCRUPLES

“... our Western Liberal traditions”

AH YES! - THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC, 1930c

Two Brief Introductions to Hebrew Canaanism by Ron Kuzar
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/kuzar_intros.html

Canaanite Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanites_%28movement%29

Freedom House: Israel (2007)
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2006&country=6985

Rewriting Israel's History (even Benny gets a serve)
(Middle East Quarterly, June 1996)
http://www.meforum.org/article/302

(Middle Eastern experts can be contacted personally from MEforum; all documents are well referenced)

Just one snip-it. The current debate raging about returning Gaza - not a successful experiment - back to its original owners.
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=837

Back to my padded cell, embroided straight-jacket, and medications ... Lev, you will be pleased to know that, (despite you claims to the contrary) wearing my straight-jacket, I can “lie straight in bed”... I ponder, however, with the attributes of being a lying, wicked, evil, psychopath - “a lying, immoral troll, a parody of a human being” - why I am not leading a country somewhere - or at least in opposition ... Life is so unfair ..

Keith,

Your argument is simply "end the occupation now and everything will be OK". This hopelessly naive.

You: "Guarantees [of security] have been given".

Please explain. The fact is that at present the Palestinian Authority is either incapable of, or unwilling to control radical elements which attack Israel. There is no guarantee of security as things currently stand.

You: "The Hamas Government should be recognised. It was elected legitmately by the people of Palestine. It's election manifesto expressed it's intention towards Israel. That's it's mandate."

Keith, you're proposing the recognition and legitimisation of a terrorist organisation which seeks to destroy Israel. If Hamas wants to be recognised as a legitimate government it needs to behave like one. Recognise Israel, renounce violence and they can join the club. This is the way the international community works.

You: "If there was no occupation there would be no rockets."

Sorry Keith, read the history books. There were attacks on Israel before the occupation. Radical groups want all of Israel, not just the return of the occupied territories. Please don't try to tell me Hamas only wants land taken in 1967.

You: "actually the best guarantee of security is peace coupled with social and commercial interaction."

Yes, in the long term that's right. I agree completely. But read my words again. I made the point that as things currently stand Israeli security is better served by having a military presence in the West Bank. If you removed the IDF from the West Bank tomorrow (without first securing a guarantee of security from radical groups) you'd see far more attacks on Israel. If you disarm those groups first then you can talk about withdrawal and long term peace and security.

We should have known that Danielle lacked the moral fibre to keep her word ("I am not returning to this discussion.", Feb 13, cf., Nov 14).

How remarkable it is that one lacks the basic cognitive and moral ability to admit even the most simple of mistakes; after four months of claiming that Israel ranks #1 in the world for freedom of the press (having been shown as a matter of fact it is ranked #59) to respond showing that it is ranked in the first general category for political rights and the second general category for civil liberties. Such a pathetic attempt at deception is not fooling anyone.

As further problem is the inability to differentiate between civil rights and cultural promotions. Thus Danielle continues to lie about the politics of Uzzi Ornan, claiming this leader of democratic secularism wishes to wants to expunge everything Jewish and Muslim. In fact Uzzi Ornan wants a secular and modern civil state and wishes to promote Hebrew as the primary identity in a model - as Danielle's reference states - away from the medieval thinking of Judiasm and Islam and towards "secular enlightened modernity." Most people do have the brain to work out that a secular enlightened and modern state does not "expunge" everything Jewish or Muslim in a sense of civil law.

(Although I still find it odd that she continues to provide references to material which contradict her point of view.. )

PS: Jews aren't banned from living in Egypt or Jordan. The Sha'ar Hashamayim synagogue in Cairo 100 year anniversary occurred on October 30 last year with renovations partially funded from the Egyptian government. There are actually thousands of Jews in Jordan, and the US Govt International Religious Freedom Report (2006) states, "The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country".

I don't expect Danielle to acknowledge these facts as they run contrary to her anti-semitic prejudices.

I apologise Lev, Things move so quickly, don't they ... (or) ...

Jordan has a law explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen and that "In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land."
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1003/dershowitz_2003_10_15.php3

US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish. The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country." .

1948: Jewish population: 75,000
2004: Jewish population: Less than 100
Anti-Semitism is rampant in the government-controlled press, and increased in late 2000 and 2001 following the outbreak of violence in Israel and the territories. In April 2001, columnist Ahmed Ragheb lamented Hitler’s failure to finish the job of annihilating the Jews. In May 2001, an article in Al-Akhbar attacked Europeans and Americans for believing in the false Holocaust.6 On March 18, 2004, ’Bad al-Ahab ’Adams, deputy director of Al Jumhuriya, accused the Jews of the terrorist attack in Madrid on March 11 as well as of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

A positive development was the announcement that a Cairo synagogue built in 1934, which had been closed because so few Jews remain in Egypt, would be reopened in July 2005. The head of Cairo’s Jewish community, Carmen Weinstein, and Israel’s ambassador to Egypt, Shalom Cohen, arranged to reopen the synagogue, which the Israeli Embassy will help to maintain. On October 30, 2007, the Sha'ar Hashamayim synagogue in Cairo was rededicated by the city's small Jewish community. Many guests from Egypt and around the world attended the event which celebrated the synagogue's 100-year anniversary and the completion of recent renovations that occurred with assistance from the Egyptian government.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html

Thank you confirming that Jews, contrary to what you claimed, are allowed to live in Egypt and Jordan. Yes, Jordan's citizenship law is utterly abhorrent.

Apology accepted.