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The Forum > Article Comments > Australia: where too much wind will never be enough > Comments

Australia: where too much wind will never be enough : Comments

By Tom Quirk, published 22/1/2008

Wind power is the front runner for renewable energy but it will never provide sufficient energy for our base load needs.

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Didnt read the article but the assumption that solar cannot provide baseload is erroneous.

http://www.coolearthsolar.com

http://www.nanosolar.com
Posted by The Mule, Sunday, 27 January 2008 4:52:10 PM
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As the peak load occurs between 6pm and 9pm this is exactly when the base load supply is most needed which is exactly when solar power is completely useless. Like wise, wind power cannot be relied on to deliver the power when it is needed.

A study by the CSIRO indicated that even if there was sufficient wind and solar power and other renewable sources to meet 100% of the average power requirements of Aus, there would still be the need for base load generation capacity of 90% of the total.

No one actually supplying solar equipment is going to claim base load equivalence as their customers would have a mega claim. The only claimants to this "theory" are pseudo intellectuals whose grasp on statistics is mirrored only by their fleeting grasp on reality.

Renewable energy can contribute dramatically to the reduction of green house gases, but it will never replace base generation no matter how much we want it to.
Posted by Democritus, Sunday, 27 January 2008 7:32:58 PM
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Dave Clarke,
There are systems being tested and implemented which can control
the thermostadts in water heaters, air conditioners etc.

The technology used sometimes is known as Broadband Power Line (BPL).
There are better technologies that use radio or lower frequencies than
BPL and do not cause interference.
We will see these systems installed after the current trials are completed
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 11:21:40 AM
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Antigreen;
Noone has answered your question, so I will attempt to answer some of them.

• AC transmission is subject to radiation and resistance losses. While high voltage DC transmission will only suffer resistance losses.#

I have not heard that radiation losses are that great. If the lines
are reasonably matched I would think that the loss would be very small.

• The conversion from high to low voltages (AC only) by transformers or conversion from AC to DC will lead to a loss of electrical energy. Indeed according to the second law of thermo-dynamics all energy conversions are subject to loss.

The losses here are also very small and a lot less than using the
lower voltage.

• Wind mill turbines generate AC power. Conversion to DC for purposes of transmission and re-conversion to AC for use must be wasteful of energy.

Same answer as above.

• I understand that when a small wind generator feeds into the grid there is a superposition of wave forms. That is the final wave form is the sum of all the multiple inputs.

The generator is in fact an alternator, if for some reason it runs
slower than synchronous speed then the grid would drive it as a motor
up to synchronous speed.

• I would be interested to learn that if the frequency of the various inputs differs by small amounts is there the equivalent of “beats’ developing in the system.

As above, everything gets locked to synchronous speed.

• Alternative if the input frequencies match and depending on the resistive properties of the system, is there the equivalence of resonance.

errr, don't think so. I suppose you could make a alternator on the
system look like a capacitor by trying to drive it harder than synchronous speed.
>>>>>>>>>
Posted by anti-green, Tuesday, 22 January 2008 11:24:23 AM

Cheers
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 11:34:26 AM
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>As the peak load occurs between 6pm and 9pm this is exactly when the >base load supply is most needed which is exactly when solar power is completely useless.

This is rubbish - Peak load in Vic, SA where prices are highest are linked to 35 degree + days instead of 4.5c kwh the price rises to $5-10 per kwh -From air-conditioners

At this point solar photovoltaic systems and (in the future) concentrating solar thermal and concentrating solar photovoltaic systems are at full output, generating the most expensive power for everyone air conditioners at the lowest cost.

Solar power can be stored, in thermochemical reactors (phase change with ammonia) pumped storage with hydro (has already been operating in the snowy scheme for 30 years). Compressed air, electrolysis with Hydrodgen. or by scheduling non time critical demand. -- like we do with off peak hot water. The year is 2007 and less important loads can be scheduled in real time -- this occurs in the USA originally with air conditioning systems at large retail complexes - it now happens right down to the domestic level.

>A study by the CSIRO indicated that even if there was sufficient wind >and solar power and other renewable sources to meet 100% of the >average power requirements of Aus, there would still be the need for >base load generation capacity of 90% of the total.

The study you are talking about you are totally misrepresenting -- it does not say this at all. If you check out

http://www-aadc.aad.gov.au/default.asp?casid=14726
Posted by MattWright, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 12:41:17 PM
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It is well known that without geographical diversity it's much more difficult to integrate wind power. These two turbines at the Mawson base are saving around 40% of the fuel, and this is soon to be expanded with more turbines (technology has come a long way in 6 years) and a hydrogen system to completely eliminate diesel fuel imports.

No one actually supplying solar equipment
is going to claim base load equivalence

although the term is misleading, baseload with wind has already been claimed by the CSIRO, they said that on one geographic area such as South Australia, 8% of overall rated wind capacity can be claimed as baseload. And across 3 or more states this number raises to 20% of rated capacity. Which is pretty good given that output of wind turbines is roughly 33% of their peak rated capacity on an annual basis
Posted by MattWright, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 12:42:20 PM
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