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The Forum > Article Comments > Prejudice is not a joke > Comments

Prejudice is not a joke : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 12/10/2007

The parallels between the rhetoric and attitudes of yesterday's anti-Semitism and today's Muslimphobia are striking.

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Although the symptoms may appear similar, to my mind there is one critical difference.

>>Even a cursory study of pre-Holocaust attitudes towards Jews in Europe and the West will show that yesterday's bloodsucking Jewish lenders have been replaced by today's bloodthirsty Islamic terrorists<<

Anti-Semitism in pre-Holocaust Germany was hate-inspired. Anti-Islamic sentiment is largely motivated by fear.

In Hitler's Germany, Jews were a convenient symbol for "not Aryan", in a time where the prevailing thought process was "racial purity will make us stronger". To my mind, anti-Semitism was, at least to begin with, little more than a convenient hook for the resentment that had built up since Versailles, which was then fanned into full-blown hatred by Herr Hitler.

The comparison of the serious privation of the average German on the one hand, with a symbol of relative financial survival on the other, was sufficient to convince the citizenry, and eventually allow them to take the full step to the Holocaust.

Today's Islamophobia is driven by fear, rather than resentment, at least in the Western countries. Where the conditions exist for direct ethnic confrontation, such as Bosnia, this may not at all be the case, but when we look at the US, Australia and to a great extent Europe, fear is far more evident than any serious depth of hatred.

I suspect that fear diminishes over time, while hatred tends to increase. At least, one can hope.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 12 October 2007 5:06:06 PM
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Its funny that Irfan Yusuf should drone on about racism and prejudice when his own God bans me from entering the Muslim heaven because I am an unbeliever. Seems like Allah is just as racist and prejudiced as I am, but you will never hear Irfan attacking his own God’s prejudice.

As for gang rape, if you had thought about it a bit, you might have answered your own question about “What kind of thinking leads to such atrocities?”

Well Irfan, in the case of the Sydney gang rapes by Muslim race hate rape packs, you begin by telling your young men that women who do not dress like Muslims women are just filthy “cat meat” sluts who deserve to be raped. You then go on and tell your young men, that it is a man’s duty to chastise women who do not act modestly, and then tell them that if a woman gets raped, it is entirely her own fault.

And that is exactly what your Muslim culture teaches your young men, isn’t it Irfan? No wonder the Serbs and Croats didn’t like your mob.

If your religion preaches that Muslims are one thing, and everybody else on the planet is something else, then you can hardly complain if the non Muslims regard you with suspicion and deep mistrust, especially when you go into bat for a certified fruitcake like the President of Iran.

50% of the women in Muslim societies can neither read nor write, THAT is something you should be writing moralizing articles on, not having the presumption to attack the societies which you fled to because your own Muslim societies were so dysfunctional.

As for "prejudice", there is nothing wrong with that at all. "Prejudice" literally means "to pre judge",and everydody does that. People are, always have been, and always will be, judged by their group associations. I think it is a safe bet that Irfan will not invite the Hells Angels around for his daughter's 16th birthday party, not will Rainier invite a gun club full of rednecks to the next aboriginal Land Council meeting.
Posted by redneck, Friday, 12 October 2007 5:30:46 PM
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Mr Yusuf,

Western society has its faults, including anti -semitism and prejudice against Moslems by some citizens. However, which person suffers more opression, a Moslem in the West or a non-Moslem in an Islamic country, Saudi Arabia for example?
Posted by mac, Friday, 12 October 2007 5:58:07 PM
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is their preduce to the people who were in the states run institutions in australia , the australian goverment is covering up the rapes and abuse that the vicims of the forgotten australians , they are sweeping this report under the carpet and just want us dead, well it is not happening , we are alive and we still will fight ,for justice ,so take it to the election and then we will see who has the real guts to speak out if neither labour or liberal bring it out then we know that they are still covering up those nortrosities the children suffered at the hands of those pedophiles who work for their institutions ,
Posted by huffnpuff, Friday, 12 October 2007 8:25:15 PM
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yeah, one group isolated...first painted black before attacked...then reported that a good act been done...not just before wwi/ii, nor now, but going for a long time...

I think will continue to happen...unless we as common people change the way we choose to look at the world arround us...and stop relying on the power/authorities of the time to feed us 'facts'...

when a whole group is targeted as one, something is very wrong in this, as all people in group get grouped together and yes this is your gold standard for 'prejudice'...but if each of us can actually meet the individual persons forming this group then it becomes clear they are not really different to our community...differentiate them into any groups you like, destructive/constructive, aethist/god believing, unfriendly/friendly...

As individuals with various traits combination, they are no different to us, except their culture gives their daily life a variation, which a bit of mutual adjustment can easily overcome for us to meet as two persons...

And for that matter our society aint that hot either, eg difference between men and women, they dont have a family court or csa like us, nor preferential benefits or governmetn office, ?hospitals all to themselves, and it seems for same crime, if ever prosecuted, they get lighter or no sentences...remember 'sniper-women' whom guilty of patiently waiting for husband to shoot him multiple times, was set free by jury...not even manslaughter...she is walking our streets now...so we have a lot of fundamental imbalance here...

so basic message is all our societies have problems...lets get on with getting to sustainable and fair society everywhere...and focus on the organized corrupting elements in our backyard taking us away from the fair point first, and encourage others to do same to theirs...even something basic as being man/women getting some advantage/disadvantage in some situation should not be allowed whether in the open or concealed with deceit...

Sam
Ps~remember saying about a bad apple in the barrel...thinking through...the question is what do we do with the organized corrupting elements when removed from area of power and authority as its likely to reform elsewhere...hmmm
Posted by Sam said, Friday, 12 October 2007 8:48:25 PM
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Hello people! Are we still in the dark ages. It would seem so. Look! if we dont come together, we will loose this race. In all our minds we have no time for ignorance. Please stop fighting amoungst yourselves, there is a bigger picture that needs to be taken in hand imediately. race, colour or creed, this conversation is totally irrelevant. If we dont pull together all we have achieved will be lost and the world coming together will just be a disapointment.
We have to get off this rock! Sorry for changing the subject but this in all the studies i have done can only be a wake up call to what's about to fall upon us. I am not an alarmist but only a thought in time. The world has changed in so many ways and evolution bears the facts that are not indisputable. If we do not have a life boat that we can climb upon to save all that we have achieved and bleed and died for all we have done will be for nothing. Some may laugh, some may think it's serious but if we dont reinsure the survival of the human race it will all be lost. What im asking you to do is think of the big picture. We are all our brothers in arms. So lets get to the point. You are all smart people stop wasting our time.
Posted by evolution, Friday, 12 October 2007 10:32:19 PM
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MAC,

Common sense is rare, dont bother wasting it on leftist bean bags like these clowns, they are predisposed to eliminating thier own kind from the planet in favour of a coffee coloured ANARCHY that will transfix all our social and environmental ills into one monumental mess that will spell the end of civilisation as we no it.

I'd like to bet that a lot of these leftist bean bags are POM's escaping little Pakistan in the Middlands and coming here and trying to tell us what racists we are, isnt that right Pericles.

Let your white guilt be your own!
Were Not Sorry For Nothing!
Posted by SCOTTY, Friday, 12 October 2007 10:34:29 PM
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To say that there are similarities between the prejudice against the Jews in the past and the prejudice against Muslims in the present is just stating the obvious. All prejudice is basically the same no matter who the perpetrator is and who the victim is. Prejudice is just a dislike or distrust of people for irrational reasons. All of us have been victims of prejudice.

The real problem for the Muslim community is to deal with the fears of non-Muslim people. These fears are very real and quite rational. Certain Muslim people have been responsible for the deaths of many citizens by terrorist acts. When asked why these terrorist acts were committed the terrorists or their representatives say they were doing what their religion tells them to do. Anyone who declares themselves to be a Muslim will immediately come under suspicion of non-Muslims because they could possibly be a terrorist. It is easy to say that not all Muslims are going to perform terrorist acts and this is true but how can non-Muslims know which ones will and which will not? It is not like terrorists wear a badge or a uniform or belong to a clearly identifiable section of the Muslim community. Witness the profile of the London bombers. What was there to distinguish them from any other kind of Muslim until they had blown a train to bits and were then proclaimed to be terrorists?

Non-Muslims are suspicious and afraid of the Muslim community in general because there is always the possibility that one of them may emerge without warning as a terrorist.

Muslims are not victims of prejudice any more than anyone else. They are victims of their own choices. They choose to be a Muslim and so they will always be greeted with suspicion because from within their ranks come terrorists who strike fear into any peace loving citizen. Muslim people have two choices. They can either weed out the terrorist element from within their religious group or they can stop being Muslims - then others will stop being suspicious of them.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 12 October 2007 11:03:32 PM
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Let me give you this point. This world is dieing. And you know it! We need to build a life boat status we can run too. Think about this! some may think its pointless but some would think this would be the absolute way to go. If something was to go wrong with our planet whether it be by our hand or by the hand of nature, to not think upon my lines of thinking we will simply become extinct, and go the way of the dinosaurs. This planet is very unstable and all hell could break loose with any tick of time. Charles Darwin has said this "no species lasts forever". Do you really think 6 billion people is sustainable!

What we need to do is all pull together, every continent, every nation, every walk of life. What I'm trying to say is, we need a planetary, self providing and self existing, plus sustaining space station. If we build this life raft we can ensure that if anything goes wrong we will have somewhere to go. But at the moment if paleontology was to hit the fan we are just going to go the way of extinction. In global matters that's a fact. If anyone else has a better idea please put down your thoughts.
Posted by evolution, Friday, 12 October 2007 11:13:42 PM
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This video clearly PROVES who is right.. who is wrong..and where prejudice comes from....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOdAmGexeZ4&mode=related&search=

Seriously now.. attacking prejudice is good.. but using such an attack to mask danger to the community is another.

There is no way in this wide world that anyone is going to convince that to attack National Socialism and its followers is 'wrongful prejudice' but you can bet that all Nazis would PORTRAY it that way.

Notice how the article and the responses are not tackling this aspect.

So far all I see is 'Prejudice against Jews'.. 'Prejudice against Muslmis'.... but what about prejudice against western values and westerners.. against Christians.. etc etc ?

There is something very ominous and wierd when such things are not 'got'.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 13 October 2007 7:01:24 AM
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yes, Scotty

Any one who takes the moral high ground should make sure they have something to stand on. Liberal secular democracies provide, by far, the best protection for minorities and dissenters. How many Moslem shoolgirls have been murdered, forced conversions, mosques burnt down in this country? In the name of reason, Mr Yusuf should stop whingeing and drawing fase analogies!
Posted by mac, Saturday, 13 October 2007 7:48:41 AM
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Great post, redneck -good to see you back on board
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 13 October 2007 8:39:57 AM
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Nice article, Irfan - but I tend to agree with Pericles, in that I see Islamophobia as more of a product of ignorant fear than of the mindless hatred that spawned the Holocaust. Mind you, the cause of the fear and hatred that produce these destructive sentiments is a bit like the old chicken and egg: does the fear cause the hatred or is it vice versa?

Certainly, several of the boofheaded comments above could emanate from either root cause. But I agree that it is the fear that seems to predominate, and I'm also hopeful that over time it will dissipate and take much of our society's anti-Islamic prejudice with it. Unfortunately, as some of our correspondents demonstrate, there will always be a small but hateful minority who need an object for their misanthropy.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 13 October 2007 8:45:23 AM
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My previous last line:

There is something very ominous and wierd when such things are not 'got'.

*points to CJ Morgan's post*

Notice how "anti Islamic prejudice" is reserved for the Boof headed?

Yet.. this anti Christian anti Jew prejudice is......well.. 'quite ok'

Surah 9:30 ".. (Jews and Christians) may Allah destroy them" (Shakir translation)

Funny...I absolutely don't find any 'anti Muslim' comments in the Bible....not a single one... from Genesis to Revelation...nothing.

as I said.. its weird when people don't 'get' it.

CJ.. you wonder why people keep on ? Your position seems to be "PUH-lease stop reminding of the facts...
a) I have my mind made up and.
b) I'll just ignore them anyway."

Well done CJ.. you would do well to heed the words of another poster who quoated Mark Twain "Its better to be silent when people say ur a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 13 October 2007 9:23:41 AM
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Boazy: "Yet.. this anti Christian anti Jew prejudice is......well.. 'quite ok'...

Funny...I absolutely don't find any 'anti Muslim' comments in the Bible....not a single one... from Genesis to Revelation...nothing."

You should heed your own advice, Boazy. Who says that "anti Jew prejudice" is "quite ok"? Irfan certainly didn't and neither did I. And as I've said before, I've got no problems with Christians who aren't in the business of spreading hatred, trying to convert me or trying to impose their morality on the rest of us.

As for there being no mention of Islam in the Bible, I don't suppose you've considered that the fact that it was purportedly written 600 years before the advent of Islam would have anything to do with it?

As I recall, the Old Testament has quite a bit of negative stuff to say about other religions, and the New Testament has been used as the basis for anti-Semitism for centuries. That comment is as stupid as redneck's one about Paradise - I don't suppose we atheists would be welcome in the Christian Heaven either, if indeed it existed.

You and your redneck cohorts should read more Mark Twain and watch less YouTube, I reckon. Xenophobic fear and loathing may not be restricted to the boofheaded minority, but it certainly finds its dumbest expression there.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:25:13 AM
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to boaz-david..."Surah 9:30 ".. (Jews and Christians) may Allah destroy them" (Shakir translation)"

boaz you have to stop translating the koran so litteraly...even muslims whom read it everyday in its original language dont have the confidence in its meaning...they say that each sura and its sentence or aya has 9 levels of meanings...and apparently revealed as one goes through life and moves up the path of spiritual development...

your interpretation could also be interpreted as 'a duty on muslims to recognize evil souls and prevent their acts' or 'protect the holy land from organized evil souls' or 'protect and defend the good souls' and so on...not globally 'christians/jews/select arabic tribe'...and for that matter history shows under islamic control all allowed to jeursalem to pray...

koran is considered not just a book but 'god actually said'...and why no translation from its original arabic is allowed to be called koran but 'interpretation'...and worse its language is as cryptic as christ sermons(bar book of thomas)...so until you learn arabic then read the koran, then have meaningful theological discussions with others on possible meanings or got your spiritual eye open and understand its meaning this way...you are just speculating and just that...and literally translating parts of koran as proof that islam is a blindly violent religion is pushing things too far...remember each muslim has to tackle the issue that their soul has to answer for its own actions while having a body before god on judgment day...think about that...

Sam
Posted by Sam said, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:36:08 AM
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Surely resentful and deluded Islamists have passed their Used-By Date? I am sick to death of these whingers. Why must we Australians continually have to listen to and read their interminable sooking over their own failures?

Newsflash. Anti-Semitism was based on lies. On the other hand, the entire world is now aware of what the Islamists are up to. Islamophobia is totally rational
Posted by Doctor's Wife Luvvie, Saturday, 13 October 2007 11:22:06 AM
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Irfan, while some analogies between anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Muslim sentiment exists it is never the less important to be aware of significant differences between the two.

In 1935 Germany passed legislation, the Citizenship Law, which distinguished between citizens of the Reich and "subjects" who were henceforth deprived of all civic rights. Only those of German or related blood could be citizens. Jews did not qualify. Further,the law for the Defence of German Blood and Honour forbade marriage and extramarital relations between Jews and citizens of German blood.

There is no similar institutionalised discrimination against Muslims anywhere in the Western world.
Posted by Seneca, Saturday, 13 October 2007 12:29:57 PM
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I admit to prejudice. Against someone who writes about only one thing. This writer. This topic.

Get a life mate. Read a book other than the Koran for once.
Posted by pegasus, Saturday, 13 October 2007 2:06:49 PM
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Irfan, salam aleikum and salaam Eid. Fortunately I have lived in Islamic countries and travelled the Islamic world and have a Muslim adopted family. One of the most poignant memories was being ill with dengue fever and having my Muslim colleagues bringing me fruits, sending me SMS messages wishing me speedy return to health and at the same time watching on the ABC young Australians beating Muslims on Cronulla beach.
I liken the fanatics in Islam to those like the Right to Life groups in Christianity.. using as one the more cerebrally compromised respondents did, various out of context passages to justify behaviour. As Zaiuddin says, if Islamicists want to wear beards to emulate Mohammed- may peace be upon him- why don't they ride camels and give up cell phones? Its like the Cathlics denying Christ was married and had sex.

This particularity plagues us all. I feel that the situation you paint is dire and I agree that the world is suffering a plague of hate that moderate muslims- who are the majority- need to confront. Without a reformation Islam is at risk of not only attracting global hate through global ignorance (as exemplified by many respondents above) but losing whatever of its greatness still remains. Its contribution to medicine, surgery obstetrics, mathematics and architecture, lost in bile and bluster. The US is making sure that the physical traces of our own civilisation are being wiped out by its bombs, Iran being their next target. Islamicists may ensure the demise of the cultural. But we do not learn from history as the Zionists are proving.

melody
Posted by melody, Saturday, 13 October 2007 2:08:36 PM
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Irfan wrote: "More unfortunate is the fact that prominent Jewish voices can be found among the chorus of Muslimphobes."

Gee, I wonder why that could be?

Hadith Sahih Bukhari [4:52:177]: "The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"

Yes, Islamophobia is driven by fear - fear of the low-level urban war being waged by Muslim minorities against the host populations of the West. Consider the Swedish city of Malmö where some ambulance drivers refuse to travel without a police escort. Or note the Islamic ghettos in France and the Netherlands which have become no-go zones for local police forces, let alone the average French or Dutchman. And nobody should forget the "gratitude" shown by the London bombers to the country which welcomed their parents. But of course, this is all the West's fault. Those nasty "Islamophobic" Europeans opened their borders to immigration from Muslim countries, so they indubitably deserve to be harassed in their own homelands.

You know, Western countries have been remarkably welcoming of Muslim immigrants considering the history of civilisational conflict between the West and the Islamic world. We don't hold Muslims responsible for sacking Constantinople, abducting millions of Europeans for slaves, colonising the Iberian Peninsula, dividing the Balkans or attacking Vienna several times. But recent experiences in Europe seem to indicate that this civilisational animosity is not dead and buried, even though some "useful idiots" in the West are imbued with the hubris that cultural and civilisational differences have been rendered irrelevant by utopian multiculturalism.

Could you imagine if a bunch of European Christians moved into a Muslim country, formed ghettos, started demanding special treatment, began raping local women, torched cars, murdered local politicians but then turned around and blamed their behaviour on "Christianophobia"?
Posted by Dresdener, Saturday, 13 October 2007 2:49:50 PM
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Dresdener,

Brilliant thread...thanks....

When Jewish refugees arrived in Australia pre-World War Two they were advised to keep a very low profile, never speak their native tongue in public and even to stop carrying brief cases for fear of offending the locals.
Posted by Seneca, Saturday, 13 October 2007 5:18:52 PM
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SORRY COUNTS if we are to take our citizenship seriously.

I demand that Australia's Indigenous People get a SORRY for the injustice of our nations colonial past, and that they are properly acknowledged through our CONSTITUTION.

What is the value of diplomacy if our leaders evade the exisitance of a living civilization, through the law.

I also wish to comment on the United States and Turkey's fragile relations.

WHAT VALUE IS DIPLOMACY, if nationhood is reducedto BLAME, BLACKMAIL and DENIAL... ARMS/ OIL and FALSE CLAIMS OF RITUAL and INTERGRITY?

WHAT faith can we put in international relations negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements?

The transferance of complacency is having a major impact on ADMINISTRATIONS and everyday BUSINESS everywhere. It is darkness reproduced, it makes mockery of our citizenship/s.

I have put a document called "Our Past, Present and Future" up on my website.

I ask the leaders of Australia, United States and Turkey to view this document. It is one important to Austrians.

As citizens we need you overcome the blame, games of fear. The excessive preoccupation of treacherous politics.

Citizens understand that there are two sides to every nations story. That this century has been the most HOSTILE of ALL and that we ALL NEED TO CLEAN UP OUR ACT.

Citizenship is undermined where leadership is pugnacious.

There is no pride in watching bloodshed, poverty and terror.

WAR is reproducing the inter-generational scars we all need to overcome.

MATURITY and a call for "responsiblity" does not just belong to the citzens who are caught between the cross-fire. The refugees, and migrants who unfortunately at a human cost and, appear unwanted everywhere.

I CALL for a GLOBAL MARSHALL PLAN.

We urgently need to get-over the practices of violence, to BE constructive with our human capital and intelligence.

We have the knowledge.

We need the will to address confidence and TRUST in a renewal of our humanity.

We All need to Address our PAST PRESENT and FUTURE NOW.

http://www.miacat.com
Posted by miacat, Saturday, 13 October 2007 6:08:16 PM
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"It is one important to Austrians."

So is Catholicism, apfelstrudel, classical music and Inspector Rex.
Posted by Dresdener, Saturday, 13 October 2007 6:29:22 PM
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“… I tend to agree with Pericles, in that I see Islamophobia as more of a product of ignorant fear…”

The ignorant and those in a state of denial are Pericles, C. J. Morgan and the Islamophiles who disregard what the Muslims have done over the years killing not only Christians, Jews but also Hindus, Buddhists and coming into conflict with ALL non-Muslims.

Where Islam is present, chaos reigns.

Presently, the Muslims in Sudan are killing the nominally black African Muslims in Dafur while the Islamic world looks on approvingly.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={6560F4B3-DCE5-4609-8845-4CD1BF0FE115}

Muslims are also killing Hindu Kashmiris to make it completely Muslim. The secessionists have completed a program of ethnic cleansing, expelling about 350,000 Kashmiri (Pandits) Hindus - something that has unfortunately gone largely unreported in the Western press. These Pandits are at present living as refugees in their own country.
http://www.kashmir-information.com/history/fundamentalism.html

In 1971 the Muslims killed 3 million Hindus in Bangladesh, and this non-Muslims genocide is still being carried out.
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/
http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/3394.shtml (Far Eastern Economic Review)

Almost on a daily basis the cowardly Muslims are killing Buddhists in south Thailand. About 2800 have died since 2004.

“Islam imposes a threat to the whole world which is far worse than deforestation, nuclear destruction or AIDS. It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world. Every individual must realise the destructive and evil nature of this religion, for it eats away at the very foundation of humanity which is an individual's ability to think individually and act accordingly.” Zulfikar Khan(ex-Muslim)
Posted by Philip Tang, Saturday, 13 October 2007 7:43:06 PM
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Irfan

Looks like the above posts have proved your point.

Mac

'which person suffers more opression, a Moslem in the West or a non-Moslem in an Islamic country, Saudi Arabia for example?'

This comment is completely irrelevant.
Posted by Liz, Saturday, 13 October 2007 9:15:32 PM
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To isolate a quote above: "Where Islam is present, chaos reigns".

I never feel good about these sort of comments. As someone who has lived in many cultures as a child, youth and adult, I find it is the attitude of individual groups that can make our common ground harder.

A magic moment I truely remember was once in an airport coming back from Vietnam. I had been doing a film on the Vietnamese Health System. I was exhausted, short of time but needed sleep. The footage and camera gear I had was valuable and important. I couldn't relax, shut my eyes, sleep in case it was pinched. The airport was crowded, noisey, hot and uncomfortable. My flight was ten hours wait.

At Bangkok airport there is a special Muslim Rest area. No non-Muslim people are suppose to enter. It is a rented space.

After meeting someone at the check-in, a Muslim male, and he realising (concerned) that I needed rest, he invited me... (in sign language) to follow him.

Wait here here gestered. He then went and spoke to a group of men who spoke in a foreign language, in the Muslum space. I could see they were pointing at me.

I was nervous at first... all the fuss, what do they want?

The man then came back and told me, they would watch over me and my camera gear... if I would like to rest.

He lead me to a quiet corner. I sat down on the floor. Put one hand on the camera gear, my head on my rolled-up coat. Rest yes, I went out like a light.

A few hours later I awoke to find the gentlemen who invited me in, smiling knowingly - pleased from his chair. He handed me some water, I felt wonderful, refreshed and so grateful.

The imprint of culture, it's humanity and our joint needs as human beings is so important and, as you may understand, it is when you least expect it that the goodness in many of us human... shines through.

http://www.miacat.com
.
Posted by miacat, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:10:04 PM
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Miacat,
I'd say your bloody lucky you didnt get yourself raped at best your a foolish woman.

Liz,

Macs quote is very pertinent to this thread,

I can guarantee a non-muslim in a muslims country will get the rough end of the stick. You people like to gloss over such things as mere details, everythings rosey in your utopian suburban lifestyle.

Answer the question LIZ.........
Posted by SCOTTY, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:54:32 PM
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As Irfan noted:

"On the ABC each week The Chaser's War on Everything lampoons popular perceptions of terrorism and security. In one skit, a Chaser chap dresses up as an American tourist taking video shots of the Sydney Harbour Bridge without any security present. He then dresses as a stereotypical Arab, with long beard and chequered kuffiyeh headdress. Security was onto him within minutes.

But not all skits elicit laughter. A recent episode showed their man in the US, Charles Firth, interviewing a sample of everyday Americans. All agreed Muslims should be forced to carry ID cards and even wear special identification badges. Most suggested Muslims should be incarcerated in internment camps. Comedy can be a potent vehicle for exposing uncomfortable truths".

Um, actually I did laugh at this skit because it played up to our well-established prejudice that the average American is an utter moron. But for every redneck in America - and that is what Charles Firth found - there are people with rational, reasonable views who would not support the incarceration of Muslims. Actually by far and away the majority wouldn't support this. Charles Firth's sample was probably about as representative as the sample of Australians that The Chaser found who couldn't even name the date for Australia Day. But that made us laugh as well.
Posted by Snappy Tom, Saturday, 13 October 2007 11:18:04 PM
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Irfan

I believe you're a hardworking intelligent man.

Therefore, by accessing the following URL, you will begin to understand why some of us are prejudiced and are unable to accept the Muslim customs that your religion regards as joyful and happy occasions.

Please reassure us here that you neither condone or participate in these festivities.

Warning: Sensitive viewers are advised not to access the following URL.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 14 October 2007 1:40:22 AM
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Dear SAM SAID:......

I appreciate your kind attempt to correct me but if I may... let me point to and use the 'interpretation' used by Mohammad himself, as reported by the hadith tradition, to flesh out a widespread (and dangerous) Islamic understanding of 9:29 and 30.

Now.. 29 is one of the 'fight them' verses. 30 is 'the target of the fighting'. “Jews and Christians” (along with polytheist pagan idolaters)

Now.. lets see how Mohammad and his followers interpreted this.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386

begins like this:

'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade."

then..further down...

The other (Persian representative) asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; ......

he continues:

"Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or give Jizya."

SAM.. do you see how it unfolded there ? Quran “fight them” to Umar “invade” and Al Mughira “We were commanded by our prophet...to fight you”

Now.. let's see if anything has changed over the centuries among some branches of Islam?
In particular Hizb Ut Tahrir.

http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/index.php/EN/def

'METHOD'

Based on this, the Party defined its method of work into three stages:

The First Stage:

The stage of culturing to produce people who believe in the idea and the method of the Party, so that they form the Party group.

The Second Stage:

The stage of interaction with the Ummah, to let the Ummah embrace and carry Islam, so that the Ummah takes it up as its issue, and thus works to establish it in the affairs of life.

The Third Stage:

The stage of establishing government, implementing Islam generally and comprehensively, and carrying it as a message to the world.

KEY QUESTION.. 'what is meant by “establishing government/implementing Islam”
To answer that, I refer you to the discussion above. “fight them until”. Specially Umar's word "Invade"
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 14 October 2007 7:05:41 AM
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Irfan,

You seem to have a problem with naming the broader project of phobia in that you never name the original racism or genocide against Indigenous people as part of your mix.

I think this is not simply a oversight but a deeply held prejudice that Islamists have developed against Indigenous people.

This is typical of the desire to be seen as 'model minorities' coming to an already 'colonised nation' and adopting the same "disremembering" as the colonisers.

Until Muslim leaders and spokespersons begin to address the bigger project of racism we all endure it is disingenuous of them to speak only of there own persecution.

From hereon, I will not join in concert with those obvious xenophobes who chant anti Muslim rhetoric, but nor will I immediately jump in to defend those who I suspect harbour racist views against me and mine.

I know the Koori community of Sydney also have these exact sentiments.

You are a troll and a fake.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 14 October 2007 10:55:53 AM
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Liz,

" This comment is completely irrelevant" Why is it? Minorities are just as capable of prejudice as the majority. Also lack of respect for an individual's superstitions is not racism. Yusuf's and others attempts to equate hostility towards an anti -democratic ideology with racism is misguided to say the least and counter productive in the long term.
Posted by mac, Sunday, 14 October 2007 12:46:03 PM
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Ranier... at last we AGREE on something!

You are dead right... spot on.. exacto!

My point would be... "everyone understands the world from their own historical/religious/ethnic standpoint"

But the IslamoRadicals ARE paying attention to the Koori community, and they are seeking to radicalize and USE them in a mini Jihad in my view.. judging by the activities at Golbourne SuperMax.

Here is prejudice also...

WHAT HAPPENS TO NON MALAYS IN "MODERATE" MALAYSIA?

here is what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-GRuHAvVVE

Situation: At the University Putra Malaysia, some Chinese students were displaying some kind of promotional material....which the Malay/Muslim student activists found offensive or at least suspect.

The laughing, yelling, mob.. are Malays, the subdued, fearful looking ones are Chinese. One of the Malays tries to force a chinese girl to sniff his shoes...they mock..ridicule.. and become violent towards the Chinese.. and show with considerable force that they "have a place" and that place is very LOWWWWW.... and they also show who is in charge.. VERRRY in charge. "Malays/Muslims"

How many times have I said... "Radicals will control, coerce, intimidate moderates"...hmmm probably 100 times. You would find the same thing with radical Muslims against moderates in Malaysia. I came through Batu Pahat just after some radicals dressed in white,had sliced and diced the 'apostate' police with long swords.

Notice how mr SSBP in the orange T-shirt is like a rabid dog.. just like 1969 when they did a job on every chinese they could lay their hands on... well.. thanx to youtube a bloke can put a rather forceful reply to that bloke.. in his own language.

I was on the rough end of that stick myself in Malaysia. Kooris have a dream run here I assure you compared to non Malay's there.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 14 October 2007 2:22:52 PM
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"I try to imagine how I would feel if this rainstorm of headlines substituted the word 'Jew' for 'Muslim': Jews creating apartheid, Jews whose strange customs and costume should be banned. I wouldn't just feel frightened. I would be looking for my passport." (Jonathan Freedland writing in the Guardian as quoted by Irfan Yusuf)

Memo to Jonathan Freedland:

--Listen to what Muslims are saying about Jews.

--Look at the demographics of Europe.

--Look for your passport.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 14 October 2007 9:09:49 PM
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Mac

'Minorities are just as capable of prejudice as the majority'

I agree with you Mac. However, we are talking about Australia, and the discriminatory and hostile behaviour Australian Muslims are experiencing by our politicians and some non-Muslim Australians. It is unfair and unreasonable to blame Muslims in Australia for what happens in countries they have no association with.
Posted by Liz, Sunday, 14 October 2007 9:23:43 PM
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Everyone is prejudice in one way or another. But this is classic human behaviour and only those that have moved above and beyond religion, will see, that the truth about human nature will not change any time soon. Like I have said before, if you want too take the god way out, that's fine, but there are a greater body of people that are laughing in the face of the sheep people.

People that cant live with out a god are just suffering from a huge dose of insecurity. I must be prejudice! With 6 billion people on this planet and only a hand full of gods to go around, there just might be some money in it. But maybe the word CON might be just too hard to believe.
Posted by evolution, Sunday, 14 October 2007 11:28:22 PM
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Liz,

Yes, I agree that some politicians are recklessly prepared to exploit prejudices, and we know who they are. However, my point was that there are as far, as I am aware, not a single Moslem majority pluralist democracy. I suspect ideas of Islamic supremacy are part of some immigrants' cultural baggage, they are unable to a adjust to our society, they should acknowledge their own prejudices and display more tolerance to mainsteam society. Especially the right of citizens to criticise Islamic beliefs without the risk of murderous violence.
Posted by mac, Monday, 15 October 2007 7:37:14 AM
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Dear Liz

you said:

"It is unfair and unreasonable to blame Muslims in Australia for what happens in countries they have no association with."

It is ALSO unfair for Muslim Australians to rampage down our streets yelling 'F*&K Jews' ..openly (Sydney during a Palestine protest) which of course is a hate crime under the Racial Discrimination Act.
(The incident is recorded on youtube)

To my knowledge, there has NEVER been any rally which specifically mentioned "F*&K Muslims"... even Cronulla was about 'lebs'

It is ALSO unfair for Muslim Australians to support Hezbollah..our enemy and Al Qaeda

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21952947-601,00.html
QUOTE:
THE nation's most senior Shia Muslim cleric has attacked John Howard for backing Israel against Arabs and openly declared his allegiance to the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah.

Kamal Mousselmani -- head of the Supreme Islamic Shia Council of Australia -- said yesterday his entire community considered Hezbollah a "resistance group", not a terrorist network, and lashed the Howard Government over its support for Israel.
ENDQUOTE:

...and to generally support those countries with which we are at either war..or involved in serious in serious ideological or military conflict.

So..perHAPS when they start supporting AUSTRALIA in the international realm...they will be less targeted by AUSTRALIANS for a bit of verbal curry ?

BLINDESS... is sad.. specially when it is found in Aussies who claim they can see.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 15 October 2007 8:59:54 AM
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Lord have Mercy??

What is it in that bigoted soul of yours that drives you to such hatred. DO NOT DENY IT BOZO.

"It is unfair and unreasonable to blame Muslims in Australia for what happens in countries they have no association with." (Quote: Liz)

"It is ALSO unfair for Muslim Australians to rampage down our streets yelling 'F*&K Jews' ..openly (Sydney during A Palestine protest)..." (Quote: BOZO-response).

How many? How many BOZO are 'rampaging' 'down our streets'? HOW MANY?

You are either a complete idiot or you are cunning and manipulative.

(That one's a no-brainier isn't it?)

You KNEW what this poster meant; and that still stands. In EVERY case like this, it is the few who cause such malevolence to the many. You should know.

You and Gib's are the very WORST examples of Christianity.

The alternative of course, is that you are both the best examples.....
Posted by Ginx, Monday, 15 October 2007 5:20:45 PM
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Which country forced Europe's hand and sent troops and miltary hardware into Bosnia to stop the murder of Muslims?

The US? Surely not?

Now that wouldn't look good in a Jihad brochure would it? The spawn of USatan saving muslims... it doesn't fit the program.

Will a similar 'real' intervention in Dafur now follow?

If you don't like the headlines, then don't read the stuff, but I realise this is difficult to ignore in a mainstream paper, but, at least we all know about the abuse, unlike annual Christmas and Easter anti-christian 'seminars' by imported Imans being hosted in my area. Unfortunately, I don't speak the language, but I am pretty sure they aren't reaffirming the place of Christianity (or Christians) in Australian society.
Posted by Reality Check, Monday, 15 October 2007 6:14:50 PM
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as a doctor(anesthetics), I have been on the receiving end of trauma... car accidents, gun shots, fire...you name it...

seeing another human realize death is imminent...they have a look in their eyes...and none of them were voicing support for any cause or religion...but saw themselves as who they really were...a person who has to deal with the reality they find themselves in...one of things that struck was when they spoke they spoke about things with such balance in view that made the room or wards go silent...and there was nothing for anyone else to say...such was the completeness of the view...

well to all those...'lets beat all the muslims today'...and whoever-else tomorrow...start by looking at the pictures of wars...for that is what you are essentially supporting...there is one that bring me back to the 'that balanced floor'...traumatized napalm burnt vietnamese children...

http://dulceetdecorumest.org/
(like the enola gay poem and cartoon)

and no Im not a 'leftist/rightist poofta' or wimp...I will and have stood in harms way facing overwhelming force to protect those in need of a balanced outcome...the first example in mind is my 3yo little girl after parent separation...she went through the usual you know what that the family court or corporate media will not report/acknowledge but the generation of broken fathers and children on our streets know well...

those children on that photo, nor my daughter had/is going to have a 'happy balanced life'...

same way think about the end effect of whatever you support/seek...for all those dead and damaged in iraq...you and i reading this have a debt to them...no way out of that accountability...so acting to prevent unbalanced damage in the 'now' is much more important...

and for those shouting 'they are cold blooded bombers'...how many 'bombers' has the iraq war now produced...so you should have acted to prevent the war in the first place right...so why dont we all struggle to get to that balanced floor now please...before things get even worse...

Sam
Posted by Sam said, Monday, 15 October 2007 7:57:46 PM
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I notice that Irfan has changed his terminology. He writes about "Muslimophobia" rather than "Islamophobia." This would appear to be a tacit acknowledgment that you cannot compel respect for a belief system but perhaps you can for the people holding those beliefs.

I'm afraid this slight of hand won't work. I do not consider someone who holds Fascist views to be admirable.

Am I equating contemporary Islam with Fascism?

That is a matter for enquiry. However an ideology that seeks to alter the law of the land so as to make, inter alia, apostasy, adultery, sex outside marriage, homosexuality, advocacy of atheism, the teaching of evolution in schools and the publication of cartoons about Muhammed punishable criminal offences seems Fascist to me.

Note carefully, I am NOT referring to disapproval of apostasy, adultery, etc. Many religions share the Islamic abhorrence of, say, homosexuality, evolution or sex outside marriage.

I am referring specifically to a desire to change the criminal code of Australia to reflect these views.

Am I wrong in thinking that changing Australian criminal law to reflect Islamic mores is part of the agenda of the Muslim religious leadership in this country?

If I am I withdraw my comments.

Perhaps Australia's new Mufti, Sheikh Fehmi Naji el-Imam, would care to offer public reassurances on that point?

Perhaps Irfan himself would care to address the issue.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 15 October 2007 9:41:20 PM
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Rainier,

Now your starting to see the picture, Muslims have taken out more first peoples in history than whites ever did.

Koories and Murries are being led to Islam in ever increasing numbers particularly in the prison system.

Anthony Mundine does not help this situation. What is left of aboriginal culture in cities will be wiped out by this virus that is Islam..

Im told its spread up to Bowraville with ex-residents of Redfern..

Oh how the worm turns EH!
Posted by SCOTTY, Monday, 15 October 2007 10:42:54 PM
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Hey Redneck you are welcome to attend my local land rights meeting anytime, you can bring your own gun or we can give you one of ours.

As for the foriegn semitic religious groups telling us non-belivers how bad we are and how should behave towards them. Big news, if you don't like it here go back to where you come from and take Scotty with you.

The cronulla riot is a classic example of why christian and muslim people should be deported, who gave them the right to run down an Aboriginal street claiming it to be their's. All three semetic religions are divisive with their fair share of fundemental followers on all sides.

If we non religious people don't start taking back this country soon we are going to have these groups telling us how and where to live. Just look at some of the christian groups such as the Bretheren, won't vote or serve in the armed forces, treat their women as slaves and then use their taxpayer fuunded lifestyle to decide for us who sits in the Lodge.
Posted by Yindin, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 11:30:46 AM
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Irfan,
Yes there is widespread predugice about Muslims but you, and some posters here, seem to think it is unwarranted. I wonder why you think that when there is ample evidence as to why.

The earlyist terrorist attack I can recall is the slaughter of Jewish athletes at an Olympics about 30 years ago. Since then there have been countless attacks. 10,000 attacks since 9/11 alone and we see daily news of attrocities and the occasional biggy like Bali, Madrid and London. This week so far 307 killed and 445 injured.

This adds up to more than a few so how can people be anything else but pre-judgemental.

I reckon this Islamophobia is completely worldwide and affects about 95% of people. Yes including Muslims. Many Muslims are extremely fearfull of othe Muslims, and why wouldn't they be. In 2006 Muslims killed 17,000 in Iraq, mainly Muslims.

The Islamophobia effects range from suspicion, mild apprehension to fear, anger and outright loathing from those with loved one killed by Muslims.

The Islamophobia is directly caused by Muslim terrorists and by Muslim criminal actiities and anti social behaviour. In any country a high degree of Islamophobia reflects a high Muslim population.

The Islamophobia will only subside when Muslims realise that violence is not the way to go and they build a better reputation by being tolerant and accepting of other people of differing faith.

Most observers cannot see that happening for a long time.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 1:35:43 PM
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Speaking of rhetoric, the Copenhagen Post reported recently on a new TV documentary that apparently shows how 'several of the instigators behind the violent Mohammed cartoon demonstrations never even saw the drawings'

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/103862.html
Posted by Ro, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 3:18:29 PM
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Mac

Thanks for your respectful tone.

But I still don't agree with you. I have spent a considerable period of time in a Muslim country (Turkey) and an African country (which I won't mention so as not to make myself to identifiable). I thought Turkey was a country with a great future. The African country was exceptionally poor, multicultural, and tolerant of all religions. They put Australia to shame.

Just as it's unfair to blame people for the ills of countries they have no association with, it's also unfair to blame one country for the ills of another country they have no association with.

It would be like Jews judging Australians based on Nazi Germany.

I think self-righteous fundamentalist Christians, such as Bozy, are more a threat than non-fundamentalist Muslims.

I find it disturbing that Australian Muslim women can not always do their shopping, catch a bus, walk down the street etc. without being threatened by a bogan who demonise them for something they are not.

And I think Muslim men should feel at peace with the safety of their wives, daughters, mothers, sisters etc living in a country such as Australia.
Posted by Liz, Friday, 19 October 2007 8:19:07 PM
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Liz,
There certainly is prejudice against Muslims in Aus. But if you look closely you will see that the problems here are caused mainly by one group, the Lebanese Muslims. Other Muslim groups/nationalities do not cause many problems.

Unfortunately, the criminal activities and the anti-social actions of the Lebanese Muslims reflect badly on all Muslims. Other Muslim groups are reluctant to point the finger and say " hey, its them not all of us". Why, I know not. Maybe because of religious kinship or because they are fearful of backlash from the Lebanese Muslims.

Until other Muslims do some finger pointing, all Muslims will have to endure the bad reputation caused mainly by the Lebs.

You refered to abuse of Muslim women in public. As far as I can ascertain, this only occurs occasionally and from yobos in passing cars. I do not think it is general. Wheras Lebanese muslim males are generally known to be arrogant, dictatorial, rude and abusive when dealing with female shop assistants, nurses, police, teachers, receptionists, etc. Are you aware that Cronulla beachgoers put up with intimidation and harrasment from Leb gangs for about 10 years before they decided to 'retake' the beach. Sunbathing girls were particularly subject to profane and sexual comments byu these gangs. So your vission may be somewhat blinkered.

I also think it unreasonable to expect that our opinions should not be influenced by overseas events. Terrorist attacks and the Danish cartoons rukus did nothing to enhance Muslim reputations
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 20 October 2007 8:43:50 AM
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GINX.....

you said:

"how many? How many BOZO are 'rampaging' 'down our streets'? HOW MANY?"

to which I reply.. "How many do you NEED for my statement to be true?"

You can see for yourself how many.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzxkGL21Ojc

But the point I'm making... is that Muslims are crying 'victim'
Yet it is the radical and aggressive nature of many muslims who actually produce the prejudice. It doesn't happen in a vaccuum.

In fairness to Irf, he has touched on this subject, but not harshly enough to my mind.

Ginx... you might blow a vein in your head there... by expressing the very thing you accuse me of. "hate"..I sense it more in your posts at the moment than any others. Not even Malevolent Morgan comes close to you..and Priceless Pericles seems more focused on pedantry than getting to the root of issues.

You are falling into the same old same old lefty trap.. "If they disagree with us.. THEY HATE US".. well.. that game is getting a bit tiresome..and contributes nothing. If the best you can do is just 'yell' then.. sadly your contribution won't be very valuable here.

Prejudice has many sides.

a) What produces it.
b) It's nature.
c) The inablity of 'prejudiced' people to see it in themsleves. (on both sides of the issue)
d) Is the prejudice justified?

I'd be very prejudiced against people who fuel the drug and pornograpy problems in my country. I'm very prejudiced against those who used military might to feed the Chinese Opium.. the British Crown and the Sasoon family.

So.. is my prejudice 'justifed' in those cases ? I feel it is. It stating such 'hate' ?

All entirely worthy of discussion.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 21 October 2007 9:11:11 AM
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To a hammer, I guess, everything looks like a nail.

Boaz, Ginx asked you "how many" people were out on Sydney streets shouting obscenities against Jews. You responded "How many do you NEED for my statement to be true?"

You proceed to post a YouTube video of a street demonstration in Sydney, over a year ago, as evidence.

Take another look at the footage. Go back to the reports at the time. There were "about 6,000" involved in the march. Considering there are somewhere in the region of 200,000 Lebanese in Sydney, that isn't exactly a massive outpouring of anti-Jewish sentiment.

Let us also remind ourselves that that protest was specifically aimed at the incursions into Lebanon of Israeli troops. About which it was said at the time:

"What Israel has done so far in Lebanon has no forgiveness they have destroyed electrical plants, fuel depots, buildings throughout the city, hospitals, the International Airport. They have chosen the wrong strategies to do the right thing hurting and killing innocent people along the way. Its very easy for the Israeli army to tell or demand for Lebanese civilians to leave their homes and belongings and to be left without anything or to end up as refugees in Syria... Israel is being extremely cruel and unfair with the Lebanese people and their country." http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50242

I am not making judgements here, simply pointing out that at the time, many people were concerned at what they saw were intemperate acts against Lebanon.

So Ginx is absolutely right. You have once again picked upon an isolated incident, in a relatively rare, and relatively insignificant street march, by a group of people protesting against what they saw as an act of violence in which civilians were the biggest losers, to "prove" that Islam is on the march, and about to declare Sharia law in Burwood, or whatever.

You are constantly deriding others for their lack of concern, Boaz, but you are in danger of becoming something of a Chicken Little caricature yourself, if you maintain this appallingly low standard of "evidence".
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 22 October 2007 10:08:21 AM
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Pericles, the biggest Chicken Little here is Irfan Yusuf with his insane conflation of current European politics with the vicious, jack-booted anti-Semitism of the inter-war period in 20th Century Europe.

His last paragraph is particularly appalling. Mr Yusuf states that "the parallels between the rhetoric and attitudes of yesterday's anti-Semitism and today's Muslimphobia are striking". How then would he explain the inconvenient FACT that the tallest still-existing building in New York City - the Empire State building - was lit up in green on October 12th, 2007 to honour the Muslim holiday Eid-al-Fitr, which marked the end of the fasting month of Ramadan?

Were any buildings in 1930s-era Germany ever emblazoned with the Star of David, Mr Yusuf, as a way of honouring that faith? I think not.

Irfan Yusuf also goes on to slander "prominent Jewish voices" who he says "can be found among the chorus of Muslimphobes". Is Mr Yusuf unaware that many Jewish voices have loudly objected to David Horowitz's Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week campaign in the United States? Or don't they exist? Aren't they perhaps, "real Jews"?

Is Mr Yusuf also not aware that a British parliamentary report on anti-Semitism in 2006 found a troubling complacency on university campuses about a rise in harassment of Jewish students. That's right - Jewish students, not Muslims. And three guesses as to the 'group' identity of the people who were largely responsible for this rise in anti-Semitic harassment ... why people from that very same group who want to squeal loudly about Islamophobia.
Posted by Snappy Tom, Monday, 22 October 2007 7:20:14 PM
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Pericles, just as moralistic Christian soldiers wake up one day with a penchant for boy bands, so too will Boaz live(or die) to see the Islamist light. Your dogged pursuit of Bo was at first admirable; but take care you do not end up like the CJ-nobody wants to be that virtuous,surely?
Posted by palimpsest, Monday, 22 October 2007 8:15:34 PM
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There are many rational reasons for being wary of contemporary Islam. Comparisons between antisemitism and what Irfan calls "Muslimophobia" are egregious.

To point out just one difference, unlike the Muslim religious leadership, the Jewish leadership, religious or otherwise, does not seek to impose the Jewish concept of morality on the rest of society. There is no Jewish equivalent of the Muslim attempt to make elements of shariah the law of the land.*

Irfan's comparison between antisemitism and "Muslimo-phobia" would be more convincing if it were not for the rampant antisemitism, homophobia and general fixation on controlling bedroom behaviour and hostility to free speech that pervades contemporary Islam.

This article by James Button in today's Age newspaper says it all.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/escalating-problems-of-tolerance/2007/10/21/1192940899801.html

THE MAIN DANGER WE FACE IS NOT ISLAM PER SE BUT THE REFUSAL OF THE LEFT TO STAND BY THE IDEALS THEY SAY THEY CHAMPION.

*Can anyone seriously deny that the imposition of sharia is part of the agenda of the Muslim religious leadership? If you do you really do not understand Islam.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 22 October 2007 9:03:15 PM
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stevenlmeyer: "...if it were not for the rampant antisemitism, homophobia and general fixation on controlling bedroom behaviour and hostility to free speech that pervades contemporary Islam."

Wind back 50 years and you've got Christianity. Sure, the Muslim nutjobs are a worry, but so are the Christian nutjobs and they've got far more money and influence in this country (and, I daresay, in Belgium).

I have no time at all for radical Islamists, and I would criticise them in much the same way I do with bigoted Christian fundies - if I ever had any contact with them (which I don't). The Muslims who post to this forum all seem to be eminently reasonable and tolerant of others - which is more than I can say for the most vocal of our OLO Christians.

And certainly the few Muslims that I know are the very opposite of radical - they are in fact quite secular in their daily lives, although they tend not to drink alcohol.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 22 October 2007 10:05:51 PM
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CJ Morgan,

I don’t see how it is possible to be a "secular" Muslim anymore than it is possible to be a secular Christian. I suggest you are referring to people who, while they may have come from an Islamic background, are only nominal adherents of Islam. There are nominal Muslims as there are nominal Christians.

By definition these are not the people I'm talking about.

A devout Muslim is bound by his religion to seek to have certain conduct such as homosexual acts or sex outside marriage declared punishable criminal offences. He is also bound to have what he would consider to be insults to Islam declared a punishable criminal offence. In other words, the Muslim leadership is seeking to reinstate laws against blasphemy.

You have brought up what you call "Christian nutjobs." So far as I am aware none of the leaders of the mainstream Christian churches are seeking to criminalize homosexuality or to bring back laws against blasphemy.

Whatever may have been the case with Christians in the past, right now, in 2007, it is Islam that is seeking to impose its view of morality on society.

But in a sense you are right. In Western countries the POTENTIALLY greater threat comes from Christianity. If we do not stand up to the Islamic onslaught against civil liberties how will we defend ourselves against a Christian onslaught?

Because, CJ Morgan, there are Christians out there who are quite happy to let Islam soften us up and then reap the "rewards."

We either stand up against ALL totalitarian ideologies – and that's what contemporary Islam is – or we succumb.

It's no good talking about "Christian nutjobs" or the "Fascist Howard Government" or the dreadful "neocons" or "Bush the religious fanatic" anytime someone mentions the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam. We need to be equally firm against the lot.

Right now people on the left seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 1:34:29 AM
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Excellent post, stevenlmeyer– I couldn’t agree more.
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 5:51:55 AM
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'dogged pursuit, palimpsest? 'virtuous'?

..er;...haven't you got your identities the wrong way around?
______________

Here's the thing BOZO.

I don't pretend to be Christian. You do. Pretend, that is.

I am of course assuming here that you see the doctrine of Christianity as a force for good? (It certainly is for a friend of mine who carries none of your spite, intolerance, and judgmentalism. I've noticed that you have a real penchant for categorizing other posters negatively in your posts. You've just done it again).

There's the rub. YOU are the good guy. YOU are the Christian?
Me? I'm just the Heathen.

Are you getting it, BOZO?

You are not Christian AT ALL! You are bigoted, and domineering in your attitude to your fellow man.

I do not make any pretence of your brand of morality.

I have said it before, and I will repeat it; you ARE an odious creature.
Posted by Ginx, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 8:25:01 PM
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Banjo

I don't doubt that there are *some* Lebanese Muslims who cause problems.

I work in a community that reminds me a lot of what you have mentioned with some young Lebanese men. Sixteen year-olds with criminal records as along as their arms. They're not Lebansese - They're white.

I'm not too sure what your race is, but given your pseudonym is 'Banyo', I think it's a safe bet to assume you're a white Australian, like me. And I don't think you or I would take to kindly to being associated with the criminal activities that occur by *some* young white males in the community I work in.

I don't think it's fair to expect other non-Lebanese Muslims to challenge those Muslims who are behaving like stand-over merchants. They're probably just as concerned about their behaviour, as well as bewildered because they are being associated with their behaviour AND expected to sort them out.

I believe the abuse of Muslim women is a lot more prevelant than you are aware of. I believe it to be more than passing rev heads. It's quite confrontational and intimidating behaviours they're experiencing when they are not with their husands.

It's happening Banjo. It's the ugly face of Australia, that I am sure neither you nor I would want to be associated with.
Posted by Liz, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 10:50:34 PM
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stevenlmeyer:"Right now people on the left seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the totalitarian nature of contemporary Islam."

Agree with all you've said except the above. The real left like the Russians and the Serbs have responded robustly to the Muslims call for war (jihad) against the non-Muslims. The so called "left" in OLO are nothing but Islamophiles who in some way or other are personally linked to Muslims.

Whenever the Muslims are in the majority, they would cause trouble for the countries in they are in by wanting independence. In India in 1947, in south Thailand, in the island of Mindanao in Philippines, in the province of Kosovo in Serbia.
Posted by Philip Tang, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 10:22:38 PM
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Horus, Philip Tang

Thank you for your kind words.

The left does seem to have a tendency to either defend or appease totalitarian ideologies. Once upon a time Stalin was their hero. Then they glamorised Mao and Ho Chi Minh.

Now they seek to appease contemporary Islam, a totalitarian ideology by any definition of the word.

All this while claiming the moral high ground and asserting that they are the true defenders of freedom.

You do not have to be an admirer of George Bush to understand that the Left is bankrupt beyond repair. To me this is a matter of great sadness because we need a moral, INTELLIGENT "Left" to counterbalance the power of big business

If you ever find the real left, the left that stood up for PEOPLE and did not escape into cloud cuckooland fantasy, let me know.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 25 October 2007 8:22:12 AM
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Liz,
I do not live in an area with a high Muslim population, but inquiries made to people that do indicate that public abuse of Muslim women happens only occasionly. It should not happen at all and poorly reflects on the parents of the yobos that do it.

It seems to me that both Irfan and yourself are endeavouring to portray Muslims as victims of prejudice.

Pregudice stems from a bad reputation and the only ones that can improve the reputation of Muslims is the Muslims themselves.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 25 October 2007 9:21:53 AM
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Banjo

I suppose only Muslim women can verify how frequently they experience disrespect and abuse. I know it's something that rears its ugly head when there's something in the media. The women are obviously a soft target, as well as easily identifiable as Muslims.

Regarding prejudice and a poor reputation ... I have to disagree with this statement.

Prejudice is a learned behaviour. Prior to the prejudice now experienced by Muslims, it was the Vietnamese who experienced prejudice, and before them the Italians and Greeks, and before them the 'whinging Poms', and before them the 'lazy Irish-Catholics' ... and so on.
Posted by Liz, Thursday, 25 October 2007 9:56:43 PM
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stevenlmeyer wrote

'The left does seem to have a tendency to either defend or appease totalitarian ideologies. Once upon a time Stalin was their hero. Then they glamorised Mao and Ho Chi Minh...Now they seek to appease contemporary Islam, a totalitarian ideology by any definition of the word.'

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Challenging racism is not related to being 'left', 'right', or 'centre'.

It's unrelated to 'totalitarian ideologies', 'Stalin', 'Mao and Ho Chi Minh'.

Those topics are completely irrelevant, although I accept that alleging those tendencies fits into a preferred, narrowly-defined negative stereotype of posters, diverting attention away from RACIST attitudes, which is the issue relevant to this thread.
Posted by Liz, Thursday, 25 October 2007 10:07:47 PM
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Liz wrote:

"...diverting attention away from RACIST attitudes, which is the issue relevant to this thread."

There is no such thing as a race of Muslims.

Islam is a belief system.

Contemporary Islam is an authoritarian and IMPERIAL belief system. Imperial because devout Muslims are duty bound to impose their beliefs on others.

Attacking contemporary Islam is no more racist than attacking any authoritarian belief system. Being apprehensive of people who adhere to such beliefs is no more racist than being uneasy about anybody who has an authoritarian agenda.

Do some people use attacks on Islam as a cover for their racism?

Yes.

Do some people use attacks on Israel as a cover for their anti-Semitism?

Yes.

Does that mean that both Islam and Israel should be immune from criticism? Are you saying that neither Muslims nor Zionists may be attacked for their beliefs?

Get real Liz.

You may believe I am wrong when I assert that Islam is an imperial authoritarian belief system whose agenda includes making the following acts punishable by law:

--Adultery and sex outside marriage

--Apostasy – leaving Islam for another religion or no religion

--Advocating atheism

--Evengelising for any religion other than Islam

--Insulting Islam or Muhammed – with "insult" being widely defined

--Teaching Darwinian evolution

I did not make this up. I have questioned Imams here in Victoria and in South Africa. All agreed that criminalising the above is part of the Muslim agenda.

If I am wrong, if Islam does not an authoritarian agenda then I shall withdraw my remarks. But I want to hear it from Imams who are recognised as authority figures in the Australian Muslim community.

Liz,

You need to understand that dark-skinned people can adhere to authoritarian imperial ideologies just as white skinned folk can and that criticising them for holding those beliefs is not racism.

THE LEFT TENDENCY TO CONFLATE RACISM WITH CRITICISM OF AN IMPERIAL AUTHORITARIAN BELIEF SYSTEM IS YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF ITS INTELLECTUAL BANKRUPTCY
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 26 October 2007 12:05:08 PM
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Stevenlmeyer

Well put.

Bassam
Posted by Bassam, Saturday, 27 October 2007 8:02:52 PM
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Stevenmeyer

I didn't make those above comments. You made them, and then began arguing against your own comments

My post was in response to your incorrect comments that anyone who rejects racism are 'left ... communist' and all the other crap you were going on with to divert attention away from the issue being challenged ... racism.
Posted by Liz, Saturday, 27 October 2007 8:55:30 PM
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Liz,

I did NOT say that that "...anyone who rejects racism are 'left ... communist' and all the other crap..."

I hope that ALL sides of politics will reject racism.

What the left does is attempt to equate abhorrence for a GHASTLY belief system with racism.

My criticism of the Left is for their attempts to muddy the waters by equating legitimate critique of an imperial authoritarian ideology with racism. It has nothing to do with the Left's alleged rejection of racism.

Abhorrence of contemporary Islam is no more "racist" than is disdain for the policies of the Family First.

To sum up:

--There is no such thing as a race of Muslims.

--Contempt for contemporary Islam is not racism.

--Contemporary Islam as a belief system is as much a LEGITIMATE target for critique, analysis, satire and scorn as any other belief system.

--Attempting to equate dislike of contemporary Islam with racism is what the Left does.

The "issue being challenged" as you put it is NOT racism.

What is being challenged is the right to treat contemporary Islam in the same manner is any other belief system.

In other words, Irfan's article is yet another attempt to CENSOR comment about contemporary Islam.

Or do you believe that Islam deserves special treatment?

Bassam,

Thank you for your kind words.

General Comment:

I notice no one here is challenging the SPECIFIC reasons I gave for my abhorrence of contemporary Islam.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 28 October 2007 9:42:40 AM
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Stevenlmeyer

"I notice no one here is challenging the SPECIFIC reasons I gave for my abhorrence of contemporary Islam."

I abhor Islam also, in the same manner as I abhor Nazism. I don't think anyone can challenge your specific reasons for abhoring Islam, just as they could'nt challenge one for abhoring Nazism.

One can tell when people are apologising for Islam when they start using the "racism" routine.
Generally, there are two types of apologist. The non-muslim who is ignorant of Muhammed's teachings, yet equates him with the Buddha and Jesus. Claiming that all "religions" are the same and have produced violence. And then there is the muslim who is suffering from some sort of "cognitive dissonance", in the same manner as a child (the author) might refuse to believe that their father was a thief.
All are attempts to silence criticism and debate.

Why do seemingly intelligent people continue to defend and portray Islam as something fluffy and benign? The author is in the legal profession. Surely he would have learned the art of deduction during his study. Why continue to brush aside the cause of lot of suffering?

Lets keep challenging this insanity whilst we can.

Bassam
Posted by Bassam, Sunday, 28 October 2007 1:01:39 PM
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Bassam has noted: "One can tell when people are apologising for Islam when they start using the 'racism' routine".

Sadly this is true. Last year I observed an internet debate begun by the American academic Deepa Kumar on the subject of the Danish cartoons. Kumar, who is a member of the International Socialist Organization, tried to maintain the absurd line that, "The history of Islam is no more violent than the history of any of the other major religions of the world," all the while ignoring the centuries of conquest that were embarked upon in that religion's name after the death of Muhammad.

She then went on to discuss the Danish cartoons in this light: "The Danish cartoon of the prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head is nothing if not the visual depiction of the racist diatribe that Islam is inherently violent. To those who can't understand why this argument is racist, let me be clear: when you take the actions of a few people and generalize it to an entire group -- all Muslims, all Arabs -- that's racism. When a whole group of people are discriminated against and demonized because of their religion or regional origin, that's racism".

Reading that paragraph again makes me wonder how on earth anyone of sound mind could actually write such tripe. After all Muslims clearly - like Buddhists and Christians - cannot constitute a 'race' that can be the victims of racism. But such clearly-laid out thought is beyond the ken of people like Kumar and others like her.
Posted by Snappy Tom, Sunday, 28 October 2007 9:54:25 PM
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Not sure I agree with you Irfan on this one.
I think friction between cultures is part of integration or finding common points for dialogue and co-existence.

There is a long history between Islamic and European/western civilisations. Ignorance and prejudice can't hide long in the time of the internet super highway. People perceptions of the 'other'change every decade due, in part, to the speed of communication.

To give an example on how today's media can bridge cultural divide: An American friend was telling me that 10 years ago no American he would know of would have supported the two state solution in the middle east.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 29 October 2007 7:36:55 PM
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Irfan's got a real hide in writing this piece. Islam has been murderous towards jews (and christians, Hindus and anyone else who was in the way of their expansionist agenda) for 1400 years. Now that Islam is getting a bit of the bad press it deserves, Irf and co complain!
I'll tell you something - who first made jews wear a yellow star of david on their clothes? It was the Muslim rulers of the old (and by that time broken up) Persian empire. Around C10, I think. These were the jews whom the muslims allowed to remain alive - which usually were the minority of those they found.
I think the west will have to learn again the truth of the old saying, that in a liberal democracy anything will tolerated except intolerance. Islam is, by its own values, intolerant, and is not to be tolerated in a liberal democracy.
And it seems many in Europe are catching on, and saying 'No'to the Eurabia project. Ken Livingston and his supporters (or survivors) may sometime learn their mistake too.
Most Muslims are better than their religion would have them be on most issues most of the time - which is why when you meet them, sometimes they seem to be just like you. But scratch a bit, and you'll find out what Islam is like. Islam as political institution, which claims religious authority, is a chaotic, puritanical form of fascism.
Posted by camo, Friday, 2 November 2007 2:37:37 PM
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'And then there is the muslim who is suffering from some sort of "cognitive dissonance", in the same manner as a child (the author) might refuse to believe that their father was a thief.'

As I said earlier, racists positioning themselves as 'experts' on a Islam and now any poster who identifies them for the racists that they are.

Didn't you know Jesus was an Arab?
Posted by Liz, Saturday, 3 November 2007 9:23:27 PM
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Sam said wrote

"when a whole group is targeted as one, something is very wrong"

Yep.

Let's have a look at a really prejudiced group. Let's look at British Muslims. Policy Exchange has published a report on literature found at Mosques and Islamic "cultural centres" throughout Britain.

See:

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/307.pdf

The subtext of the report is that British Islam has been "hijacked" by nasty Wahhabbists, mainly from Saudi Arabia. Let's see:

Quote:

"And if he apostatizes after that, HIS HEAD SHOULD BE CHOPPED OFF, according to the Hadith: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him'[emphasis added].

Fatawa Islamiyah - Islamic Verdicts, volume 5;

found at the East London Mosque; the London Central Mosque and Islamic Centre (the ‘Regent’s Park Mosque’)."

(Page 4 of the Policy Exchange Report)

Are we supposed to believe that this does not represent the views of the elders at the London Central Mosque? They were just distributing it in a fit of absent-mindedness?

Note that the quote is taken from Fatawa Islamiya, a source regarded as authoritative by Sunnis. The hadiths appear to be Bukhari 9.83.17 and 9.84.57, also regarded as authoritative.

Here is a quote from page 19:

"...undercover reporters were sent into certain mosques, where they filmed and voice-recorded speaker after speaker uttering hate speech against unbelievers, Jews, women, and homosexuals. The language was extreme, clear, and, at times, even threatening."

Anyone reading the Policy Exchange report with an open mind is driven ineluctably to two conclusions:

--The sentiments expressed in the literature reviewed in the Policy Exchange report may not represent the views of and actual majority of British Muslims; but they do reflect the position of a SIZEABLE MINORITY.

--The literature in the various Mosques may reflect the views of a majority of the British Imams. How else to explain the absence of a widespread outcry against such filth?

An Australian reader cannot help wondering to what extent the literature reflects the sentiments of Australian Muslims.

Evolution

"Dark ages" is an apt description
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 3 November 2007 11:59:40 PM
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Liz

"As I said earlier, racists positioning themselves as 'experts' on a Islam and now any poster who identifies them for the racists that they are."

It has been explained to you before by stevenlmeyer that Islam is not a race. Yet you persist in using this term. Having contempt for Islam is not racist either, just as having contempt for Nazism is not racist.

Is'nt it funny how the mind commits all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid something.

"Didn't you know Jesus was an Arab? "

What has this red herring got to do with anything?

You seem not to want to know about Islam and the rantings of its mentally insane prophet. You don't have to be an expert on Islam to know what Muhammed's doctrines are. Just get a Quran and have a read. You may then begin to understand why people, even Arabs :-) find Islam disgusting. You could also check this site out put together by an Iranian chap: http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/

As stevenlmeyer implied, you must think that Islam is special, needing some sort of protection or something.
Posted by Bassam, Monday, 5 November 2007 7:47:57 PM
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Hello all, and especially Liz. Liz, please, Jesus was not an Arab, he was a jew.
A confusion often arises because both Jews and Arabs are now called semitic races. This makes many think that antisemitism means not being prejudiced against both Muslims and Jews. It doesn't. Antisemitism is a technical term for being prejudiced against Jews. Speaking out about Islam seems nowadays to be called Islamophobia, as if it's a disease that can be treated.
If you believe the story, Jesus became the founder of a new religion, named after one of the names for him - Christ.
Islam claims jesus as a muslim prophet, but the picture Islam paints of him has nothing to do with the picture christianity paints of Jesus. If you've read the apocraphal gospel of Thomas, you'll see a much closer resemblance to the Muslim picture. Christianity rejected this picture of jesus as being wrong. Read it and laugh - it's a riduculous gnostic fiction that isn't even well written (and I've read it in the greek).
Islam also claims many characters from the Torah and Old Testament, but each of the Islamic stories are so different from the sources as to be unrecognisable. In many cases, Islam has confused one or more characters in a hopeless jumble, and usually changes the names of the characters to lose the meaning in their names.
I'm an athiest, having studied christianity at some length. I've been reading about Islam for some years, and have not only had my athiesm affirmed, but have become genuinely alarmed at what can be found in the Koran and Hadith, and the use that many Muslims make of that material right now. Does that mean I have a disease?
Posted by camo, Tuesday, 6 November 2007 3:12:47 PM
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