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The Forum > Article Comments > Muscular Catholicism > Comments

Muscular Catholicism : Comments

By Lee Rhiannon, published 2/7/2007

The Church's right to free speech is different to Cardinal Pell's strongarm tactics.

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Stuff the Privelege's Committee. The boofheads of Parliament have been treating their superiors, the People, with contempt for too long. Personally, I've never walked into a state House of Parliament.....I don't visit houses of ill repute! From now on, if we say to our MP "I won't vote for you if you vote for such & such": then we can be hauled before this bunch of losers.
Posted by Francis, Monday, 2 July 2007 10:46:42 AM
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francis, where and how did you form the opinion you were superior to a politician?
Posted by DEMOS, Monday, 2 July 2007 11:08:38 AM
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What a non-issue! The whole political system is based on threats to MPs. If they defy the party line, they are likely to be suspended, disendorsed or expelled by their own party.
Posted by Chris C, Monday, 2 July 2007 11:58:32 AM
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I too am concerned with some of the comments of the ALP right who gave the fingers up to Cardinal Pell.

I can't see the difference between an ALP Caucas decision being 'forced' upon parliamentarians and a mere note of warning from the Church.

Obviously the former is far more dangerous both in frequency and substance to ordinary citizens.

Perhaps the Greens should be searching for ways to ensure that party caucasing doesn't continue to undermine democracy?
Posted by Reality Check, Monday, 2 July 2007 1:07:43 PM
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Reality Check: "I can't see the difference between an ALP Caucas decision being 'forced' upon parliamentarians and a mere note of warning from the Church."

I suggest you educate yourself on the difference between a democracy (eg Australia) and a theocracy (eg Iran).

"Obviously the former is far more dangerous both in frequency and substance to ordinary citizens."

If ordinary citizens dislike what the government is doing then they can vote to remove them. Last time I checked Catholics (let alone all other Australians) can't vote Cardinal Pell out.

This however is a problem created by these "Catholic" politicians. By being Catholics they "out-source" all their opinions of moral and ethical issues to a group of old men in Rome. If they want to disagree with the views Pell is pushing, perhaps they should reconsider their devotion to the Church.

It is clear that Pell's comments are out of line with the community's expectations of the Church's involvement in politics. But the Church can only have influence over the government if the politicians let it.
Posted by Desipis, Monday, 2 July 2007 1:37:04 PM
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The main thing is that Pell's veiled threats didn't work. For yonks in this country Catholics have been using contraception, having abortions, coming out as gay and now voting on medical research the Vatican doesn't approve of. Most Australians believe in a God but they don't put up with ugly drag queens telling them what the church's party line is.

Bad luck, Pell. This ain't Iran. Deal with it.
Posted by DavidJS, Monday, 2 July 2007 1:50:09 PM
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I think Cardinal Pell is impressing the pope and proving that he's a muscular Catholic, like Cardinal Ratszinger. Unfortunately for Pell and his fellow fundamentalists, the majority of the Australian public are intelligent and don't believe his 'no' case has merit. Nor do they accept his assessment of the risks of reckless 'Frankentein' science taking over. But many more battles with scientists lie ahead - the church has form against the finest minds that challenge the dogma associated with literal interpretation of holy scripts.

Most reasonable people see the benefit of ethically regulated stem cell research and the huge potential benefits that this line of scientific research offers people living with life threatening and debilitating medical conditions.

The more we understand the limitations of the human genome, the more we can appreciate that it's merely a slow work in progress of Darwinian evolution. Pell sees mankind as a 'hands off' masterpiece by God that we dare not tinker with, less we face the consequences of His wrath.

In the longer term, stem cell research will inevitably develop the potential to improve upon the human genome template we inherit to include innovative genes from other life forms that have the capacity to repair spinal nerve cells, replace missing adult teeth and restore hearing from damaged hair folicles in the inner ear.

That kind of enhancement would gift an intergenerational legacy to human kind and reduce our rocketing public health costs by billions of dollars each year. To get there, you can bet on the fundamentalists fighting with every trick at their disposal.

In view of the desirability of separating religon and state, could parliament consider rescinding the generous tax free status given to religous institutions?
Posted by Quick response, Monday, 2 July 2007 2:04:57 PM
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It seems like the unions are allowed to manipulate members of the Labour Party while Cardinell Pell isn't allowed to threaten or have an opinion on moral issues. Typical double standards for those who tried their upmost to defend compulsory unionism at universities.
Posted by runner, Monday, 2 July 2007 3:37:49 PM
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It is quite evident that Ms Rhiannon understands nothing about how the Catholic Church works - or indeed for what it stands! For a start Cardinal Pell was doing nothing more than stating the Church's professed stand on stem cell research. Secondly, he was reminding Catholics - and yes, that includes Catholic MPs - that there are moral consequences to ignoring the Church's teachings, consequences which may well affect that person's soul. I know that all this sounds like absolute bunkum to non-believers like Rhiannon, but it actually is quite important to believing Catholics and it does them no harm to be reminded of this fact from time to time. The Cardinal never threatened to withold communion from any MP - and incidentally, Ms Rhiannon, communion is not a "service", it is a sacrament. I realise that Ms Rhiannon and her ilk would love to see a 100% secular parliament, with the dismal, no hope philosophy which non-believers usually peddle, but she is just going to have to live with the fact that there are quite a lot of people in this State who actually do believe and take it very seriously. Quite a lot of them, believe it or not, are Ms Rhiannon's constituents - so watch out, my dear, or they might just withdraw their "services."
Posted by Mr Public Opinion, Monday, 2 July 2007 3:56:15 PM
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Heaven forbid that a Catholic cardinal should try and restrict access to Holy Communion for those who act against the Church's teachings! It's not like this is a Catholic ritual or anything, and that a lay Catholic's opinion of whether or not he/she should be able to take is any less authoritative than that of a Catholic leader!

(Although I am not a Catholic, and I personally have some issues with the Catholic view of Communion, I respect the right of Catholic leaders to make judgments about how Catholics should take Communion, and the circumstances under which they should be barred from it. Catholicism is hierarchal. Deal with it.)
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Monday, 2 July 2007 5:02:14 PM
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Not once do we read the word "embryonic" stem cell research in the debate. Is this a concerted effort to mislead the readers?

Cardinal Pell was not the only Church representative to criticise the MPs. Anglicans, Baptists, and other leaders voiced their concerns too (minus the alleged threats).

Perhaps it is time to remind our servants the MPs that life’s moral and mortal issues come under a higher authority under which they accepted office.

Liberal democracy does not have to be amoral or atheistic to be popular (and gain votes).
Posted by coach, Monday, 2 July 2007 5:10:09 PM
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Demos,

Look again.....I didn't say I was superior, I said the People is superior....after all, we pay the politicians and they work for us. There are superiors in the army ranks, police ranks, employment ranks and in the ranks of democracy.
Posted by Francis, Monday, 2 July 2007 5:17:06 PM
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"On June 5 Cardinal Pell stated, “… it is a serious moral matter and Catholic politicians who vote for this legislation must realise that their voting has consequences for their place in the life of the church”."

Well at the rate people are leaving the Church - its pastors are only helping to speed up the progress of decline.

How differently all this appears to the ministry of Jesus.
Posted by K£vin, Monday, 2 July 2007 7:08:46 PM
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Kevin, you do realise Jesus drove people out of the temple? Why do people always think Christianity/Catholicism is about tolerance? Loving people, yes. Tolerating evil, no. Cardinal Pell has made a judgment that certain actions/beliefs are inconsistent with the Catholic Church's view of morality. Good on him for sticking to his values, and those of his church.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Monday, 2 July 2007 7:38:48 PM
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What Cardinal Pell has done is oppose the greatest medical break through in the history of medicine. The potential for Stem Cell therapy to cure disease and alleviate human suffering is absolutely enormous. So, in short, Cardinal Pell is pro-human suffering and anti-science.

I bet that he also miffed at the latest census results. Nearly a fifth of the Australian adult population do not subscibe to a particular religion. Therefore, over time Catholicism will lose its political muscle in Australian society as this figure grows.

If a more scientifically literate and pro-science society replaces the myopia of religion then this is an overwhelmingly good thing. Human suffering will be diminished.
Posted by TR, Monday, 2 July 2007 9:04:15 PM
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YngNLuvnIt, do you understand the concept of the separation of the Church and State?

Pell's error is not in voicing his theological views about science he doesn't understand - rather, it is in his open effort to influence the votes of Catholic Members of Parliament along the doctrinaire lines prescribed by his Church.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 2 July 2007 9:32:00 PM
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Fair Go Mr Public Opinion

I'm also a practicing Catholic, and I agree with Rhiannon's POV.

Cardinal Pell, has, IMHO, represented Catholic contribution to Australian social justice issues remarkably. However, on this issue he was a bit heavy handed.

MPs will hopefully follow their conscience, rather than be bullied into voting a certain way. It's not a church state. Having said that, it would take a strong member of the Liberal party to put themselves out like that.
Posted by Liz, Monday, 2 July 2007 9:44:08 PM
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The bill has allegedly legalised the following:

• Human embryo cloning (so-called 'somatic cell nuclear transfer' or 'therapeutic cloning') - which makes a human embryo with only one genetic parent
• Mixing the genetic material of more than two persons - which makes a human embryo with three or more genetic parents
• Fertilizing immature eggs taken from aborted girls with adult male sperm - which makes a human embryo with an aborted baby girl as its genetic 'mother'"
• Creating human-animal hybrids as a test for sperm quality - which makes an embryo with a human and an animal genetic parent.

I am no expert but it seems to me that the Catholic Church would not be the only one to have problems with this. For instance, the production of human embryonic stem cells is prohibited in Germany, and here the Green Party - otherwise a strong critic of established Christian Churches - is one of the most outspoken supporters of the prohibition.

I live now outside of Australia, and have difficulties finding on internet an EXACT quote by Pell, where he says he would refuse - personally and/or via instructions to priests under his jurisdiction - Communion to certain MP’s.

“The Cardinal suggested that the “consequences” could mean that Catholic MPs who voted for the stem cell research bill could be refused communion.” is NOT an exact quote.

The weaker statement “… it is a serious moral matter and Catholic politicians who vote for this legislation must realise that their voting has consequences for their place in the life of the church” seems to be an exact quote but I could not find it on the Archdiocese of Sydney homepage.
Posted by George, Monday, 2 July 2007 11:51:38 PM
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Maybe if be threatened to issue a declaration calling for their death it would have been okay.

Seems like it these days.
Posted by chrisse, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 5:29:26 AM
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francis, the pollies tell you what to do, not vice versa. i can understand you thinking they work for you, as everyone says so. everyone is wrong. read '1984' (again), pay close attention to newspeak and doublethink. it can happen here, in fact it did happen here.

so you can talk tough as you wish, but you still tug your forelock when they say "give me money."

they are your superiors, mate, by any test you can think of.
Posted by DEMOS, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 8:11:05 AM
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There seems to be this idea that Pell somehow is not allowed to voice his opinion. With easy access to the media, his own newspaper column and the Vatican behind him, I don't think he has a problem with voicing his opinion.

Pell's opponents are simply disagreeing with his opinion - which any sensible person can see is different to censoring it.
Posted by DavidJS, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 9:20:44 AM
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Maybe Pell ought to stand for Parliament at the next election?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 5:11:19 PM
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Why, is Parliament the only place that one may voice an opinion? So, only politicians are allowed to voice an opinion!
Posted by Francis, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 5:44:36 PM
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YngNLuvnIt

"Kevin, you do realise Jesus drove people out of the temple? Why do people always think Christianity/Catholicism is about tolerance?"

Jesus stood up for the oppressed - pure and simple. he stood up to clerics and politicians alike. Why do you think both conspired to kill him - especially the clerics of his day?

Jesus would not have refused his 'table' to anyone.
Posted by K£vin, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 8:53:55 PM
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Sydney's Cardinal George Pell is big and bold enough to defend
himself but some Catholic politicians need a reality check from their
fellow Catholics. The reality is that it is pew Catholics worldwide who have been appealing to the Church hierarchy for decades to defend human life as Cardinal Pell, Scotland's Cardinal O'Brien on the 40th anniversary of the British Abortion Act and other international Catholic leaders are doing now.They have had enough of compassionless Catholic politicians tolerating the abortion carnage of 100,000 Australian babies annually, remaining silent while colleagues try to destroy those Pregnancy Counselling Helplines which might actually help a woman give life not death to her baby and fall for the con science of human cloning. No football team would tolerate the disloyalty or lack of talent these politicians display. For years attempts have been made to discredit Pope Pius X11 for doing too little to stop the Jewish holocaust. When the dark history of the abortion holocaust is written it will not be be Cardinal Pell who is discredited but these politicians.They would do well to have heeded the words of one Victorian legislator speaking against cloning legislation: "It has been suggested that we do not profit anything at all if we sell our souls, even if we gain the whole world in exchange. How much less do we profit when we accept what we know to be profoundly wrong and get
nothing in exchange?"

Denny
Posted by Denny, Saturday, 7 July 2007 3:18:45 PM
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Mr Public Opinion,

"It is quite evident that Ms Rhiannon understands nothing about how the Catholic Church works..."

You didn't go far enough Ms Rhiannon understands nothing.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 9 July 2007 7:41:48 AM
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