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The Forum > Article Comments > We all want the same thing - an end to child abuse > Comments

We all want the same thing - an end to child abuse : Comments

By Andrew Bartlett, published 29/6/2007

The government needs to become a little bit more open to advice on how to make their Indigenous policy work.

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What is a distraction is to concentrate on child sexual abuse by itself.

The sexual abuse is a sub-set of the much broader problem of child neglect. To focus solely on sexual abuse, although attractive in some quarters,is to politicise the problem. It will result in wastage of resources and a holistic approach to the nutrition, care, education and safety of children and vulnerable youth will not be possible.
Posted by Cornflower, Friday, 29 June 2007 10:22:37 AM
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Can anybody out there tell us all how many taxpayers’ dollars have been consumed by Aboriginal Affairs over the past 10 years? [an estimate to the nearest billion dollars will do].
Posted by healthwatcher, Friday, 29 June 2007 10:48:47 AM
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Andrew says:
(quote)
A range of Australian blogs recently addressed the theoretical question of whether a politician’s motives are relevant in assessing their policies. ... assessment of motive ... really isn’t relevant in assessing whether the policy is any good.

The motives may be as pure as can be and the policy still is bad. Conversely, the motives may as devious as possible, but the policy may still be spot on.
(end quote)

True, so far as it goes. I'm not commenting on the motives for this particular policy, but, in general, the motives behind a policy can have a great effect on how it is carried out, and so whether the policy is successful.

Best example of this is the Vietnam war - allegedly motivated (partly) by the welfare of the Vietnamese people. That this was false resulted in the My Lai massacre and its aftermath, and (allegedly) numerous lesser but similar incidents, which resulted, inevitably, in the loss of the war.
Posted by jeremy, Friday, 29 June 2007 11:34:42 AM
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This is a joke right?

It's the fear-mongering leftists, led by the Greens and Democrats in Parliament, that are the main reason nothing has been done all these years.

It's interesting to hear from both sides that things have deterioated in the last thirty years, about the same time the multicultural policies were implemented - that state, ludicrously I might add, all cultures are equal.

It was these policies which led to the backing off by government in this area, not to mention the cries of 'witch' by leftists who can't handle any type of interaction with, or critical analysis of, the culture of non-Anglo's.

For fear of learning the truth that non-western cultures are backward, barbaric, and violent.

All you sanctimonious bridge walkers and 'sorry book' signers should hang your heads in shame. You really don't see how that behaviour is racist do you!

So patronising!

If one were to look at Hansard over the last ten years or so it would be Democrats and Greens politicians calling Howard a racist for getting rid of ATSIC. Or throwing in fear campaigns of stolen generations to get votes.

You know what?

I hope with all my heart that the current generation of indigenous inmates sue the likes of you for being the reason they weren't stolen!

They're lives were sacrificed for leftist populism!

For shame.

How do you people sleep at night?
Posted by Benjamin, Friday, 29 June 2007 11:55:05 AM
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Well Andrew, what has Pearson being saying for the last 8 or so years?
I'll tell you, nastly stuff about his own mob, thats what.So much so that any solution put up by grassroots leaders is palmed off as 'evidence of welfare mentality and dysfunctionality'.

His reference to Aboriginal law and sociality is simply an attempt to distance himself from the views that made him the pin up blackfella for neo cons and right wingers.

Yes I realise you like to stand in the middle and describe both sides of politics and be a referee, but you need to understand the game that we blackfellas are fighting first.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 29 June 2007 12:10:54 PM
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“That Aboriginal child sexual abuse in the Northern Territory be designated as an issue of urgent national significance” is hardly the only matter of national significance in Aboriginal communities.
How does it stack up against petrol sniffing in those same communities? What permanent damage is done by sexual predation compared with permanent brain impairment by the latter?
Both of these terrible problems needed urgent action long ago. Both are but symptoms (exceedingly nasty) of the social dysfunction in communities needing robust attention.
For petrol sniffing, there has been desultory action such as introduction of “Opal” petrol in some areas; but no real drama, or action against underlying cause, about this extremely serious problem.
For sexual abuse of children it is different: A most robust action has been initiated in response to this latest report. Why does this difference exist? Both problems (and others) have been well publicized for many years in plenty of harrowing detail prior to this month.
Whatever the reason, I hope the most is made of this opportunity.
But opportunism it is for Howard – why else would his initial media statement have been wrapped in emotive tissue around medical teams being brought in to assess sexual predation upon the communities’ children? Top marks to the medical people responding to that call: no such examination without proper protocols. The difficulties for such examination were glaringly highlighted in Britain a decade ago due to over-enthusiasm, by an ex-patriate Australian doctor, in finding phantom cases almost everywhere.
“Even the head of John Howard’s hand picked taskforce to implement this plan, Sue Gordon, has been quoted as “being among those warning of inadequate resources to support the plan”. However, she has said “her taskforce would move quickly to determine what extra resources were required. And she said the commonwealth had promised to pay” (my emphasis).”
We might live in hope that durable improvement to the underlying causes of the social dysfunction will arise out of this. But it is exceedingly sad that, on the history of Government behaviour in the recent past, there is little reason for expectation.
Posted by colinsett, Friday, 29 June 2007 1:03:40 PM
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FOCUS! 'We all want the same thing - an end to child abuse' - Yes - with the RESOURCES and LONG-TERM multi-task action required too!

We need to stop SILO cultures operating and alienating the good work possible from all sides. Many hands shared make light work.

Noel is right in his early arguments about "white servants" however it was and is a bit harsh to put us ALL in this box.

Education for ALL must suffice. We have the opportunty from "GRASSROOTS" to make this work if we stop alienating ourselves, from ourselves. Government needs to get rid of the RED-TAPE and understand the value of practical engagement. (PRODUCTIVITY at community levels must be based on building capacity (Social Capital) This is economic!).

See the Candoo response to "TIME-POOR" experiences which exhaust goodwill and good social capital identified through experience in Cape York. (How good Community Work can be neglectfully reduced to frustation and stress) This issue is a NATIONAL one involving ALL public services in regional and rural areas.

http://www.miacat.com/Media_Pan_One/REGIONAL_Pacific_News/Local_Cape_York/New_campaign/Do_We_Ck_Busy.asp

Grassroots needs government as government needs grassroots. This takes two-way (quality) COMMUNICATION and COLLABORATION rather than just leaning on GOVERNMENT CHAMPIONS... see the cause (QLD) for the introduction of this framework.

It is the heart of the real problem everywhere.

It is unsound - not moral and wasteful economics!

http://www.miacat.com/
.
Posted by miacat, Friday, 29 June 2007 1:16:24 PM
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Healthwatcher:
in bald figures around $33 billion of Commonwealth funds has been spent directly on "Aboriginal Affairs" over the last ten years.

To be fair you would deduct from this the money spent on the CDEP (mistakenly known as the "black work for the dole scheme") as this is in lieu of benefits that people would be receiving anyway. This would take up around $3.5 billion.

Similarly with much of the rest of the Indigenous section of the Commonwealth's budget: the same amount should be deducted for expenditure on health services, in lieu of use of mainstream primary health facilities. This would bring us down to about $26 billion.

You could deduct another large hunk for public housing; more for education, employment services, municipal services etc. You would end up with only a relatively small fraction being spent on things that are distinctly different and Indigenous specific.

So don't get too anxious about that.

But what I suspect you are really concerned about is this: why has all the money spent by governments generally on Indigenous people over the last ten years not produced better results than appear to be the case?

The reasons for this are fairly complicated, but I believe that Brough is onto some of the reasons and trying to deal with them.

For example, the Commonwealth in the 70s and 80s unilaterally withdrew much of its direct activity and expenditure on job creation, community development, administration and management in Indigenous communities, which began the process of degeneration of standards and services in these places.

State governments (particularly the NT and SA) pulled back from adequately policing many remote Indigenous communities. This led to a huge growth of substance abuse and violence, which in turn led to an extraordinary increase of abuse and thuggery.

Consequently even the relatively high levels of expenditure (provided through grants to a ragtag army of small, often ill-governed and semi-competent councils and NGOs )has not been deployed in an "effective or efficient manner" over many years, and the average efficacy of many services has been on a down-hill run.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Friday, 29 June 2007 1:42:55 PM
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Yes, Andrew we all want an end to child abuse. But how to go about it? The means is as important as the goal we are seeking. So where do we stand on the extensive housing shortages? Over-crowding in homes often leads to conflicts and violence.

First let's look at Howard's way of doing things. Does Howard's approach need improvement?

This is how NT Environment Minister Marion Scrymgour, from the Tiwi Islands, sees things: She said mothers needed reassuring their children were not going to subjected to invasive medical checks or removed from their homes.

"There is a lot of fear, particularly amongst our older women where not so long ago, and we can look back only 30 or 40 years, where children were taken in remote Aboriginal communities out of the arms of mothers and there is that same sort of fear amongst the women that this is going to happen," she said.

Marion said: "There is very little detail and the goal posts keep changing every day but nevertheless we need to get out there and we do need to reassure our communities."

The spectacular launch by Howard, did not involve consultation. What a shame and a very bad start that makes Australia look bad.

What outcomes will change to improve the situation? Over-crowded housing is an obvious strarting point but the PM is already baulking at the cost provided by Clare Martin for the NT.

The measure of Howard's sincerity will be the number of cyclone resistant dwellings he constructs in these communities that is appropriate for the different lifestyles of residents.

That will range from young single mums to extended families and aged care facilities. Australia wide, the cost will be a few billion - but well worth the investment.
Posted by Quick response, Friday, 29 June 2007 1:53:39 PM
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Howard needs to examine funding approaches that have worked well elsewhere in Austrlia and other countries.

Let's look at rehabilitation of violent offenders including sexual predators. We do not do well. The cycle needs to be broken. Why oh why are we not following Canadian best practice?

A report in today's ABC new reports: 'Indigenous Australians make up just 2 per cent of the general Australian population, but 25 per cent of the prison population. In Canada they used to have similar figures, but 20 years ago Canadians began trying to change this by creating indigenous-run prisons.

The Stan Daniels Healing Centre in Edmonton, Alberta, is where native Canadian inmates go to serve the last six months of their sentence.

The aim is to get them to reconnect with their culture, and the results are extremely impressive.

The centre is about redemption. It is a place where damaged men try to heal and redeem themselves before they are released back into the world.'

'The elders who run this program say that about 80 per cent of the men who complete it never reoffend.

It has impressed the head of Corrections in Australia's Northern Territory, Jens Tolstrup, who says that one in two of his prisoners end up back in jail within five years of their release.

Mr Tolstrup believes recidivism rates for Australian Aborigines could be improved if a jail similar to the Stan Daniels Healing Centre was opened here.

The link between identity, culture and better criminal justice outcomes has been proven around the world, but to make it happen in the NT, Mr Tolstrup needs more money.

Successive Canadian governments have invested the necessary cash over the last 20 years. The will to act and to spend in Australia has seemingly been lacking.' Will Howard put up the money?
Posted by Quick response, Friday, 29 June 2007 2:00:14 PM
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Can anybody tell me why Howard is focusing on a few hundred people in N.T. and avoiding the rest of Australian child abuse. Somewhere in Australia a phone rings every 2 minutes to report child abuse.

Me thinks it maybe old mean and tricky setting up a "crisis" of "children overboard" proportions to once again scare the living daylights out of ordinary voters.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 29 June 2007 3:22:49 PM
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Dear Andrew
We met once (at a Senate Hearing) I was not impressed by your grasp of that subject matter either.
The time for consultation is over. Consultation can go on endlessly. If you had the answers you should have spoken up.
The reality is that, in politics, there will always be someone who does not like the answer to a question.
If the Democrats had listened then they might not be a spent force in politics.
Posted by Communicat, Friday, 29 June 2007 4:26:49 PM
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@Rainier.

What is the game you guys are fighting at?
Posted by palimpsest, Friday, 29 June 2007 5:28:41 PM
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Grateful if someone could explain the term 'silo' culture. Miacat mentioned the term. Did a search on it, it was mentioned numerous times, but no explanation aside from 'aquaculture using large vertical cylinders', and I don't think we're talking about aquaculture here :-)
Posted by Casual Reader, Friday, 29 June 2007 9:33:33 PM
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palimpsest,

In short its a game about who the fk we are against how public discourse defines us, imagines us, talks about us, writes about us for their own benefit.
The Left blames complex problems entirely on the past; the Right looks to that same, discredited past, for solutions.

However, enters Noel Pearson who argues that that black communities are solely responsible for solving their own problems which then offers an excuse for the wider society to do nothing.

Howards is looking backwards because those where the halicon days of 'Aboriginal affairs'f or the Right.

The Left gives its usual lip service before elections and then abandons us when they win government. (Qld is a good example)

So the game is called 'piggy in the middle' and we didn't put ourselves there.

I don't agree with Howard's interventionist approach on child abuse. Its very similiar to the Iraq approach. But he's been clever enough to mix an emotional and moral arguement together with this shoddy approach, so much so that many are agreeing here but disagreeing.

Where is the consulation with the people most effected?
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 29 June 2007 10:06:56 PM
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Rainer,
That's easy there isn't any, a purely authoritarian approach, with punitive measures vilifying Aboriginal people for child abuse when the balance of Australia is also rife with it. To me it's reverse discrimination and patronising, just as all his moves have been for the past 11 years.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 29 June 2007 11:25:45 PM
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I am angry that criticism is seen to be politically motivated. Howard would have motivation, without a doubt. Even if it is all good he would see integration as good result here. He dislikes multiculturism and lets face it we really only have 2 cultures, aboriginal and western.

How long how we trusted governments on this issue and at what cost, human and financial?

So we should just let the policies go unchallenged like we have for how long now? Do we as a people still prefer to just let governments do whatever and have a whine at the end of the day when the policies have failed? I do not think we have that option anymore, we have lost the the right to complacency.

I can't see criticism as being political, I see those that say we should not criticise as having political interests at heart though.

I can't see criticism as not wanting improvements in aboriginal communities. I see it as a desire to ensure government is kept to it's humble promise and accountable all the way.
Posted by Verdant, Saturday, 30 June 2007 9:25:52 AM
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Verdant,
I want advances in child abuse not to be confined to the N.T. I want it to be applied to the other 21,000,000 of us. Of course this is political, Howard does nothing without seeking a result for himself, everything is political. For example the $25 million he is spending on Ballymore Rugby Union grounds, it could be better employed at Townsville Hospital.

These are his priorities look after the well heeled and treat the lowest socia-economic class like dogs. The White man bought a Bible and alcohol
we know what the result has been on the Aboriginal population. Aboriginals are Australian citizens and have been since 1967, this is an attempt to drive yet another wedge in Australian politics by a mean and nasty little man.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 30 June 2007 5:55:31 PM
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I'm for Howard going in and taking some immediate action to help the abused...then think about the long term care of the community.

What disturbs me about this whole thing is the people scrambling like cockroaches to jump on the gravy train while it's tooting its horn.

I believe it might be targetting the NT because the report "little children are sacred" was a report that came from the territory...someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by StG, Sunday, 1 July 2007 9:31:00 AM
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StG,
We have seen many reports in many States, why would you confine your "war against child abuse" only in the N.T. with a few hundred people when Australia is rife with child abuse in every State and Territory? There will be some political spin on this before long trust me, if you thought Warney could spin just watch little Johnny.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 1 July 2007 10:13:21 AM
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I understand that the miniscule number of substantial houses in

these communities

often have an average of 15 people seeking shelter in them - it's

no wonder that if you put large numbers of alcohol addicted people

in these family situations that "all hell " breaks loose.

What support will Howard,Brough and Tony Abbott give these addicted

parents and other family members ?

Absolutely nothing has been promised by them to overcome one of the

major reasons for this horrible social mess.

Last night I watched the All Blacks play the Australians in the

Rugby Bledisloe Cup sponsored by Bundaberg Rum and a beer

company. When a score is registered, a glass full of celebratory

beer "pop-Up" now appears at the edge of the screen - the sponsoring

of sport by these companies and the Federal Government's complicity

can only encourage young and old, black and white, Australians to

increase the abuse of this poison !

Will these irresponsible, unethical and rich Alcohol Companies

throw in a few bob to help with the shocking health of Aboriginal

People ,their source of largesse - I doubt it .
Posted by kartiya jim, Sunday, 1 July 2007 10:33:52 AM
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KartiyaJim:

Communities don't have "miniscule numbers of substantial houses" - they usually have lots of substantial houses - but sometimes still not enough for all who need them - it's true they "often have an average of 15 people seeking shelter in them" - but this is often because parents can't say no to their offspring and grandkids crowding into their houses - dependency is not just about dependency on grog, dope or welfare - many people are also overly dependent on the responsible family members who take the trouble to keep power on in their house, food in the fridge, money in the bank, a working phone and a car on the road - it provides more spare change to maximise their dependence on cheap thrills such as small amounts of expensive ganja, copious amounts of cheap grog, a few porn videos, plenty of cigarettes (there is an epidemic of tobacco dependency; as with many other statistics, the nicotine dependency rate in Aboriginal communities runs at nearly four times the national average) - endemic gambling addiction is another factor in this local political economy - plus many people find it too dangerous in un-policed or under-policed but often very violent communities to live on their own without the protective presence of plenty of relatives - plus many people just like to live very convivially, with plenty of friends and family members around all the time - other houses are abandoned for long periods because of beliefs about the spirits of the dead hanging round the deceased person's former haunts - then idle kids move in on the empty house with games that are destructive to the fabric of the building - so there may be empty houses sprinkled around the same community where there are many overcrowded houses - and the management of the local council is usually too over-extended, under-resourced and lacking skills to cope with providing some of the obvious solutions to these problems - as you can see, things are not as easy as they may at first appear
Danny Bhoy
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Sunday, 1 July 2007 11:09:40 AM
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SHONGA

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Do we have the resources to "hit" every community in the bush?.

IMO there needs to changes to centrelink...how does this grant for new borns effect these communities?, and the young girls having kids in them?...maybe "rent" should be paid straight into the landlords accounts for them. Maybe food stamps instead of cash. Alcohol ban is a must...some of the stories of rape and sexual assault SEEMS to stem from substance abuse.

I don't have the answers, but definitely there needs to be nation wide action...my missus comes from Walgett and lightening ridge...some of the stories from there are horrendous.
Posted by StG, Sunday, 1 July 2007 11:48:53 AM
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Too true Dan , I hadn't mentioned the Tobacco companies but agree

with you about the ill effects of smoking addiction in those

communities .

I can remember seeing in the Kimberleys, a Marlborough Man like ad

on "Stockman's " - a brand of "roll your own" tobacco a few

years ago.

Great marketing in Aboriginal cattle country !
Posted by kartiya jim, Sunday, 1 July 2007 3:09:55 PM
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I take it that Mr Bartlett now reconizes his party is responsible along with others parties with similar philosophy to allow the porn industry to flourish in Canberra. If the Democrats or anyone else was fair dinkum in tackling child abuse they would no longer support the appetizers for the perpetrators of these crimes. This 'harmless' viewing in the name of human rights just happens to contribute substancially to the ruining of both young black and white kids. Their will be plenty in the Democrats and other parties who will still defend their selfish rights to feed on this stuff!
Posted by runner, Sunday, 1 July 2007 4:48:23 PM
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I don't treat this issue lightly when I say that I can be brief in comment....., because SHONGA has said it all for me.

This blundering, brutish move IS divisive, IS racist, IS designed to tap into the bigotry that very many DO have. And it IS a politically motivated move. This man and his regime have had a long time to do something, ANYTHING about the abuse of our children in ALL stratas of society.
Posted by Ginx, Sunday, 1 July 2007 11:10:25 PM
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Consultations - there has been 'consultations' going on for years - how can one argue that there 'needs' to yet more consultations?

Regardless of the issue - and here we have one of the most inhumane situations, the continual abuse of kids - and Indigenous Australias want 'consultations'. What pray tell is there to 'consult' about? Where is the response that helps the most vulnerable - baying for yet more consultations - this is a broken record.

The only thing Indigenous Australians so-called leaders need to ask- how is Aboriginal culture actually protecting their community - it seems very much the reverse. Which leaves to ask the really big question - what are these so-called leaders really up to - what is their real agenda - to keep their people in poverty, addiction and subject to continual violence - is that it - all the while crying how big bad white Australians are not consulting. Oh please!
Posted by rivergum, Monday, 2 July 2007 8:20:38 AM
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Of course they need 'consultations' Rivergum - this is about 'power' not 'people'. The indigenous 'leaders' are worried that they will lose their inordinate power and influence and that they may no longer see their names in print as the saviours of 'their people'.
Under their care we would see endless consultations and an endless waste of valuable resources. These people are more concerned about 'land rights' than 'children's rights'- and they have been encouraged every step of the way by other activists who are feeding on media, welfare and church praise (with gongs attached) who cannot afford to see real progress made as it would deny them their daily adrenalin fix of 'righteous anger'- indigenous communities have had an inordinate share of taxpayer dollars to the detriment of others in the community and themselves and it still has not fixed the problems because these activists are effectively sabotaging the efforts - and they are doing it right now in the media by criticising the latest attempt to do something.
Time to actually tell the rest of the community this and have them quietened by a chorus of support for the effort being made.
Posted by Communicat, Monday, 2 July 2007 9:25:46 AM
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Communicat says "indigenous communities have received an inordinate share of tax dollars ".

This is wrong .

They receive less per person for their health problems when one considers their present state of social neglect and chronic health problems .

There is an estimate of over 4 Billion dollars to bring NT housing and health up to a decent level .Better management of the tax payer dollar is what is needed, not a miserly attitude to the problems .

He or she should remember resources from Aboriginal Land are fuelling our economy and now wastefull lifestyles and have been for over 200 years .
Posted by kartiya jim, Monday, 2 July 2007 12:07:27 PM
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Ah so when the government does something the usual suspects crawl out of the wood work and complain about what is done just as if the government did nothing, the usual suspects would crawl out of the woodwork and complain about how their flavour of politics would do what is not being done.

I would have thought it was obvious. Government is not there to manage individual families but when a particular section of Australian society have clearly demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to meet their parential responsibilities and obligations, then as a back stop someone has to go and do something or be cupible as children continue to suffer.

Thank God we have a Liberal Federal Government with the sense of moral purpose to override the nambi-pambi attitudes of the Socialist Territory Government and doubtless the children saved from the unending abuse will also thank them in years to come too.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 2 July 2007 12:17:25 PM
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Ranier. Thanks for your response. I take the points you made about being the meat in a Left/Right sandwich. As a typical white boy I agree with the Howard intervention. Its a time honoured approach, swift action. But its what comes after that is key. Any end to the worst excesses of alcohol and abuses will be wasted without effective follow up of needed and wanted services.

I'm aware of the conflicting responses of indigenous people to this eg last night ABC Profile of a Mutitjulu woman (favourable) followed by the Indigenous radio show interview with a M man who disagreed. Both agreed on the importance of follow-up.

Like most people I've been trained not to pry, not to look too closely 'over there'.But in for a penny, in for a pound...

It seems that greater provision of services, increased education and job opportunities etc are inimical with Traditional lifestyle. Cultural practices on both sides are in conflict. eg arranged 'marriages' v's our romantic love ideal
the nuclear family v's the family group
land v's property.

I'm buggered if I know how these things get reconciled.

Where do you stand?
Posted by palimpsest, Monday, 2 July 2007 6:59:42 PM
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"Thank God we have a Liberal Federal Government with the sense of moral purpose.........." (Quote:Col Rouge)

You jest sire!! Is it really necessary to put up the glaring examples of 'Liberal moral purpose' decisions? Come now.

Given that comment it is understandable that those who think differently to you, are 'usual suspects crawling out of woodwork'!

How unkind! I'm way to long in the tooth to make my home in woodwork. The splinters play havoc with the derriére!!

We are one society, and as one society the abuse of children is vile. This invasion has been undertaken for political gain. (Hasn't worked has it?)

But then,this Regime is good at invading for self interest isn't it?

I do not suggest that the Opposition would do things any differently. I don't know. I DO know that it grates a little to portray the Libs as warm hearted humanitarians. They are not.
Posted by Ginx, Monday, 2 July 2007 8:18:22 PM
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If you take a small step back you may notice the seemingly inexplicable contempt of court shown by Andrews, Kelty, Ruddock and Howard, supported by the media, in the lynching of Dr Haneef, to be a coordinated and inflated manouvre to distract the hypnotised and well fed masses from the huge theft of land being perpetrated under the banner of 'Mission Rescue Aboriginal Kids from Sex Abuse'. C'mon Aussies you surely still be cannot be so damned gullible although I know many are LIKE "Please fool me, just keep the money rolling in..." Perhaps Howard should look into the suburban white populations where alcohol,tobacco, medication, general ignorance and stupidity have been depriving white kids of REAL LOVE and Nurturing for generations forcing them to become the bland passionless automatons that their parents already are.LAND GRAB! LAND GRAB! Name the Demons and chase them out of town....
Posted by Charagua, Monday, 30 July 2007 9:50:36 AM
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