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The Forum > Article Comments > Hirsi Ali: an apostle of liberal democracy and of secularism? > Comments

Hirsi Ali: an apostle of liberal democracy and of secularism? : Comments

By Mark Bahnisch, published 15/6/2007

A liberal democracy is not worthy of the name unless it treats all its citizens equally and without discrimination.

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Several comments. Secular is defined as "the state of being separate from religion". From Wikipedia CJ, your bible. Can anyone here tell me one government that does not claim God as their own? Howard does it, Rudd does it and he's not even there. Bush uses it every day.

Any government. Just name one that is secular. Please. There aren't any are there as none of them are "spearate from religion"? It's just a matter of degree which ones are more rabid.

CJ. You accept that Bahrain does indeed subjugate women in the name of Islam. What's different about how Muslim women are treated in any country? Again, it's just a matter of degree. Name me one Australian woman who would choose to wear what Muslim men try to make them wear? Yes many say they love it but women do not love having their hair covered, or wearing drab robes. Historical fact.

If Islam doesn't subjugate women why do they have one rule for men and one for women? It really is just a matter of how extreme a society let's these people be. In some countries stoning to death is practised. In Australia Muslims say everything is hunky dory. Again, one rule for men who dress and do what they like. And another for women.

Mind you I see little difference between Islam and the Catholics here today. Match Pell's outbursts with Hillaly's. They are startiong to sound identical aren't they?

The whole Christian faith uses Eve as the bad one as she bit the apple. Given that stuff is fiction why is it that a woman is the evil one? No coincidence she was name Eve is there? Evil. Eve. Blatantly obvious.

Secular, smechular. Doesn't exist.

And yet another item referring to "the left". It's gone people. Left and right are 50's terms. Today there are simply rich and poor. Nothing else counts if you follow politics ar all.
Posted by pegasus, Monday, 18 June 2007 3:33:58 AM
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BOAZ_David, Benjamin, coach, Themistocles, TR and Nick Lanelaw, how many girls have been spared the ordeal of FGM as a result of your spluttering comments on this thread? Has there ever been a single case of a girl or young woman being saved from FGM, arranged marriage, etc., as a result of Australian and American bloviators blathering in cyberspace about the evils of Islam and "the Left"?
Posted by Dr Paul, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:34:56 AM
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BOAZ_David,

"COACH.. thanx for that link to Hizb's constitution.. you mentioned Waleed Ali is their spokesperson? err.. do you have some documentary evidence to that effect,..."

You’re welcome – interestingly no one else commented on this but you.

Sorry I don't have more proof - but all I know is that W. Ali, a lawyer, has no problem with the practices of Hizb el Tahrir (or Wassim Doureihi’s views) in Australia .

From previous press interviews he indicated that he is mainly vigilant about terrorist groups in Australia but has no problem with the political views and agenda of the Hizb. (words to that effect)

Which I find very disturbing - for a lawyer, in his position, in Australia - to close his eyes to such an organization knowing very well how (they) are bluntly recruiting and openly promoting a Global Islamic State which by their own definition Must Supersede ALL other States and Governments.

Dr. Paul,

FGM is only one of the ugly facts in Islam. It is up to Islamic leaders to promote change within their sects and up to Islamic women to wake up and stop accepting male subjugation.
Posted by coach, Monday, 18 June 2007 11:46:24 AM
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I know it is difficult for you, Johnj, to understand the point I was making. Your mind is grabbing for smart answers before it understands what it is attempting to answer.

Mark’s point was that separation of church and state did not mandate a crusade against religion.

I simply pointed out that for the left, in relation to Christianity, it does, and I gave an example. The point is the desire of the left to attack Western religion, juxtaposed against its refusal to attack Islam. You strayed way off the point, by discussing the Ten Commandments.

The point is that the left will attack the display of this icon of Christianity, but shows respect for a religion that maims and tortures little girls.

A pointless assertion by Mark, in any event, because the criticism of Islam is not based on separation of Church and State, but on the criminal actions against young women and girls, condoned by that religion.

You are even less capable of straight and logical thinking, than Mark.

Dr Paul, demonstrating the lack of capacity of people like you, Mark and Johnj to deal with these issues is a worthwhile exercise, as is supporting people who wish to decry this aspect of Islam.

You labour under the apprehension that nothing said by you or others on a blog will have any effect, but that may be an unsafe assumption considering the tremendous effect the internet has already had.
Posted by Nick Lanelaw, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:10:29 PM
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Dr Paul
I fail to see what 'how many females in Australia....etc' has to do with the basic reality in "Islam" of fgm as a practice?

That was a very flimsy straw man. Its about the standard of 'Show me where Jesus said "I am God, worship me".. which of course he did not say at all. Muslims, knowing this, often use it as some kind of weapon against Christians.

The issue must always be.."What does Islam teach"?

Well...according to Hizb Ut Tahrir, in the same constitution coach pointed out, there are some worrying things.

1/ Execution for Apostates.(i.e. freely choosing another faith.. you will BE KILLED) Article 7.c

2/ Arabic is the ONLY language of State. Article 8

3/ Article 179
Political manoeuvres are necessary in foreign policy, and the effectiveness of these manoeuvres is dependent on concealing (your) aims and disclosing (your) acts.



Article 180
Some of the most important political means are disclosing the crimes of other states, demonstrating the danger of erroneous politics, exposing harmful conspiracies and destroying misleading personalities.

So.. GEEE... what a confession and admission. Quite candid.
It means 'hide your true agenda' in dealing with people/states in Dar Ul Hab (conflict/war zone where Islam is in the PROCESS of taking over)

If that, and the existence of this group in Australia does not send shivers up your spine, I don't know what would.
There is ZERO room for socialists, Leftoids, Rightoids in Hizb's Islamic state. ONLY 'Muslims'.

So, your support/defense of them suggests:

a) You are Muslim and share their views/goals.
b) You are simply naive, and don't have a clue
c) You realize what they are on about, but... are in socialist utopian denial, believing that they would not 'reallllly' pose the threat we are claiming.

On every point, you are dangerous.
I'm just following Hizb's constitution and 'destroying misleading personalities' :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 10:51:44 AM
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Abu Boaz,

Wow, so now that Hilali is gone, Hizb El Tahrir speaks for Australian Muslims? How many people follow them in Australia Boazy? 200, 300 at best? Is that your new 'truth telling' or the voices in your head again?

Boaz, we started our on this forum 10 June 2005 (2 years ago), of which you had over 3500 posts pouring fear and hate towards Islam and I have tried everything over 2 years to reach out, promoted harmony and tolerance. If your claim to follow Jesus (pbuh) teachings, should it not be the opposite way around? : -) Whats wrong with this picture?

Peace my friend, I will invite you to dinner next time I am in Melbourne (are you allergic to halal food?)
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 10:45:36 PM
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