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The Forum > Article Comments > Ali is pop star of intolerance > Comments

Ali is pop star of intolerance : Comments

By Greg Barns, published 4/6/2007

The media should stop lauding Ayaan Hirsi Ali: she makes life more difficult for Muslims wherever she goes.

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Thanks logic.

When I first arrived in Australia some 30 years ago, from Suriname, I was told ‘in Rome do as the Romans do- here in Australia you do not talk about 3 things: sex, politics and religion’. That was to address some embarrassing mistakes I first made. I puzzled what there was to talk about that could be remotely interesting. But look at us now!

I admire a few on these threads who come up with thought provoking viewpoints.

Whatever faith or non faith someone has it really is all about how one sees others and sees oneself and place in the universe. On this thread it is important to contemplate this regarding Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Especially for those to whom she is saying things they like to hear. She was once a Muslim devout enough to wear a hajib, not through coercion from her parents.

What I find fascinating is how anybody equates his/her religion with actually living a religious life. The religion of Islam has a better ‘structure’ to live a life of a devout person. Judaism became rather too complex and Christianity has been so manipulated through the ages so that it is actually possible to act without consideration of JC on a daily business day and still be a ‘good’ Christian.

There are many who go on and on about the secular laws of a Western country. This is of course totally negating that all these laws originate very much from what a Christian God finds acceptable: laws against homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia and on marriage to name a few obvious ones. Any changes contrary are fought all the way.

By the way, I’m an atheist
Posted by yvonne, Thursday, 21 June 2007 9:15:31 PM
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Danielle,
Thanks for the intro. I went to a French Catholic school as well.

Part of the chevalerie code pre-dated Islam which were mainly 3 themes at the time: generosity, territory defence and honouring oath. When Islam appeared, the code was expanded further with a 70+ definitions such as supporting the orphan and the widow, defend the helpless and the weak, charity, etc..

Like Sufism, writers about chevalerie used the Quran and hadith to complement a moral excellence. If you take the example of charity: one of the Quranic definitions is: the ‘those who give for charity in good times and bad times’ the hadith adds ‘best of charity when the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand gave’ confirming secrecy.

Sufism Islam is widely known to have started in the year 850 AD although many including myself believe it to have started as early as 670 AD since it seems to be a perfect description of Imam Ali the prophet’s cousin. The word sufi means woollen rag and purity and Imam Ali fits the perfect profile of a sufi. Maybe this is why Sufism started in Iraq.

Sufism main theme is based on the perfection of the faith through the ‘purification of self’. Its reached when “believer must worship His Lord as if he sees him and knowing that he cannot, must know that His Lord is always seeing him”

Sufism spirituality and definitions rely on the Quran heavily in a number of areas including the types of souls and classes (believed to be 7 types in the Quran (350 words won’t help).
Some estimates of the numbers believed to be as high as 15-18% of muslims. African countries like Senegal and Chad have majority Sufi Muslims while exist in large numbers in countries like Egypt, Iraq and Morocco. The same goes for east European countries like Chechnya and Uzbekistan (estimated 10-20 millions in Turkey) and so on

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 22 June 2007 2:01:01 PM
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Fellow_Human,

Thank you for this information ... the details are quite beautiful in their elegance. Can you cite a text for these and I'd like to read more.

Another question, when was the golden age for Arab Islamic literature ... Also, it there a theatrical tradition as seen in the West, Shakespeare, etc., and also in Asian countries.

Finally, I have heard that Islam is one of the Abrahamic faiths - the others being Judaism and Christianty. As Christianity retains certain parts of Judaism as in the Old Testament, is there any element of Judaism in Islam.

Incidentally, I came to Australia when small, so didn't have a French education.

I assume that you are Islamic. Earlier you mentioned having lived in North Africa. Now you admit to having been educated in France. Would it be inappropriate to state where you were born?

Peace
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 23 June 2007 7:16:00 PM
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BOAS_David,

I do have to pick you up on a couple of things. It might be because there are many denominations within Christianty.

However, until the 19th century, much was made of the fact that G_d placed you in a certain station during life for a purpose. This gave justification to slavery.

Also, the belief in Calvinistic predestination was horrific. G_d had pre-ordained before one's birth whether one went to heaven or hell - and it didn't matter how righteously one lived one's life. But an inkling of G_d's favour, and hence, indication that you were headed for heaven, was material success in life. Thus, the downtrodden and the poor were indicative of G_d's displeasure ... and alas ...

In Catholicism, the more misery and suffering one endured in this life (albeit without complaint) thereby, submitting to G_d's will, the higher place you secured in heaven.

I remember an instance in a local parish where a woman was being constantly abused by her husband. Being Catholic she could not leave the marriage. The priest never confronted her husband, but assured her she was earning much grace to enter heaven. Subsequently, she died under "mysterious" circumstances. The priest comforted her children with the assurance that their mother had earned her crown in heaven and was with Jesus and among the angels.

I do not know how Muslim religious advisors would have handled this situation.
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 23 June 2007 7:41:08 PM
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Danielle,

Regarding the ‘golden age for Arab Islamic literature, it’s a very good question because it’s scattered.
Arabs only represent 16% of Muslims and most of the Arabic culture influence on Islam was in poetry, science and medicine, architecture and calligraphy.

The music part came through Mystic Sufis as their recitation through their recitation of the Quran and the way they pray (include soft dancing known as the derwish dance). The musical rhythm in their singing cam from an earlier science in the 7th century called Tajweed (art of the recitation of the Quran).
Most of the Muslim music came through the Seljuk Turks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_music

Many other authors and writers (like naguib Mahfouz, winner of the Nobel Prize literature 1988) have published books (trilogies). Some of the books made it to the theatre and few found their way to the movies. There was shown in the intl film festival in Sydney last week http://www.yourmovies.com.au/movies/?action=movie_info&title_id=33811amed "the Yacoubian Building"

Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity. The Quran confirms the commandments and the Mosaic Law. Here is a comprehensive article on what we have in common and where we differ:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015498

“I do not know how Muslim religious advisors would have handled this situation”
Women in Islam have the right for divorce for a number of conditions (such as if the wife fell out of love). If the topic is of interest, the Muslim Women League have a useful site: www.mwlusa.org

Re personal info, pardon me for the confusion I caused: I was born in N. Africa (Egypt) and grew up there; I was in a French Catholic School since the age of 4 where I studied French literature, philosophy, science and math.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Sunday, 24 June 2007 1:55:58 AM
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Fellow_Human,

Thank you for the information and references. Perhaps you could recommend a text on Islam also on Islamic philosophers. Although I don’t intend to convert to Islam, I would like to know as much as possible about your culture and religion. I hesitate to just "pick" out texts, but would like informed guidance.

I find the sciences and arts of Arab Muslims elegant and beautiful ... so much contribution to western culture. Roman numerals were very limiting ... Unfortunately, westerners are unaware of this, or choose to ignore it.

Learning philosophy at school is important. A European, also taught philosophy when at school, told me that until philosophy becomes a subject at school level here, our education will be gravely lacking. Would you agree with him? He also informed me that philsophy was a “common” subject in western european education at school level.

I had forebear, an embassador for his country, who not only served in the Ottoman Empire but also married within it. I understand that it was a magnificent period in history. Would it be fair to say, that the imperialism of the British did much to “sublimate” the arts of Muslim Arabs? I confess to knowing little about this, but it would seem that under colonialism, these “slept”.

In the next few months, I hope to learn Middle Egyptian. As you know, I have a great love of archaeology.

Peace
Posted by Danielle, Tuesday, 26 June 2007 2:09:47 AM
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