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The Forum > Article Comments > Catholics limiting choice > Comments

Catholics limiting choice : Comments

By Rodney Croome, published 6/6/2007

Who defines 'Catholic'? Will students be turned away from Catholic schools because their parents are single, in de facto relationships or not regular church goers?

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Damn good article. I'd hate to see religious discrimination institutionalised.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 12:34:12 PM
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"Will students be turned away from Catholic schools because their parents are single, in de facto relationships or not regular church goers?"

If they're lucky. It's sad that religion based education (read as: non-education based education) exists at all.
Posted by spendocrat, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 12:40:50 PM
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No doubt this push for exemption from the anti-discrimination law comes from Cardinal Pell who, judging from his past record prefers paedophiles to homosexuals. Looks like we are returning to the bad old days of Daniel Mannix. Woe is us.
Posted by VK3AUU, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 1:12:24 PM
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The Catholic Church needs to step away from public funding and keep the high standard of education in Catholic schools alive through Catholic enrollment alone. Too much of the educational standard has been weaken by the constant exceptions and the demands to water down the curriculum by the non-Catholic public user and a creeping socialist agenda from non-Catholic teachers. Catholics can not be seen to be limiting the choices of non-Christians and therefore it would be best to completely eliminate the public in person and dollars.
Posted by aqvarivs, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 2:50:47 PM
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aqvarivs, I think you may find support for that notion from unexpected quarters.

I'd support it - I'd rather government funding didn't go to catholic schools. While I may not like them discriminating, I guess that's their business.

Though its interesting that you say their education standards are higher and they should be able to pick students to maintain that - course, I suppose it's easier to have high standards when you pick and choose and only take the smart kids...
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 2:59:57 PM
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Aqvarius. back in the old days before the government gave money to Catholic schools, the standard of education obtaining in their schools was quite poor. My sister used to teach in a state high school in Victoria and her observation was that those students who had a Catholic primary school education were at a considerable disadvantage compared to their state primary school contemporaries. If we were to go down that path again, the same situation would unfortunately apply again.
Posted by VK3AUU, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 6:05:31 PM
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VK3AUU,

I think you will find that one perversion often leads to another
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 6:22:49 PM
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Groan.

Can someone please remove the government funding from religious schools until they learn some proper morals.
Posted by TR, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 10:01:29 PM
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Damn right Runner. Those deviated preverts need to be stopped from spreading their filthy preversions to impressionable young minds.
Posted by Johnj, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 10:16:32 PM
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TR

Who is going to teach the Government funded schools some morals?
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 11:09:10 PM
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I appreciate Catholic colleges publicly stating their rules like supporting homosexuality on campus, so I can make sure my kids do not attend this school.

If gays were bullied on campus, that is a disciplinary issue and something that should never be tolerated. However, to then go and support homosexuality, knowing that it is a sin? That is complete hypocrisy!

This isn't a gay issue, it's an issue that shows that this college fails at their commitment to discipline.

Then to continue that failure by supporting homosexuality shows that instead of addressing the serious issue of LACK of discipline, they decide to promote sinful behavior. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Thursday, 7 June 2007 12:01:52 AM
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No matter what the actual issue, this situation highlights the old 'Emperor/Pope' dichotomy and competition in a way.

One poster made the point about government funding, and the need to step back from it... amen.

When a Church becomes organizationally so large that it becomes inter-twined with the state, there will be expectations of mutual obligation, and this is never healthy for the Body of Christ to maintain purity of life and faith in practice.

For me, the most important aspect of this article relates to this statement.

"the Pride and Prejudice anti-homophobia program, something inconceivable only five years ago."

If this illustrates anything, it is 'social change' and in particular that driven by a lobby group/politicized segment of the community.

When it comes to homosexual behaviour, there is absolutely no grounds whatsoever for any body claiming the name of Christ, to offer comfort for such behaviour. Not only is it hypocritical it is downright sin.
On the other hand, to treat without compassion those who are confused about their sexual practices, would also be to sin.

Any group claiming to represent God's standards is unambiguously obliged by their covenant relationship to promote God's standards.
In terms of schools, that standard need not be compromised UNLESS....they are legally pressured due to Government funding which is linked to changes in legislation.. and if THAT is the cause of moral compromise, then it tells something about the lack of suitability of a 'Government funding/Church policy' arrangement.

PREVIOUSLY INCONCEIVABLE 5 yrs ago. Question: what happened in those 5 yrs? Clearly-lobbying,activism,protest.

This where we need to beware. NAMBLA are not far away, and have similar goals.
What's that I hear from the left? "Don't IMPOSE your values on us"
In this, I see the shoe is on the other foot.

Community Social/Moral decay does not happen overnight. In happens incrementally
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 7 June 2007 8:13:40 AM
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Homosexuality a 'sin'? *groan*. Hey, do you think it's okay then for Muslim schools to teach children that Christianity is a sin? Because if it's not okay for Muslim schools to teach children that other religions are sinful or evil, then Catholic schools and colleges need to exercise some neutrality when it comes to personal issues like sexuality, other religions or reproductive issues.

I hope the Tasmanian Government is taking a close look at what children are taught in Catholic schools. I have no problem with struggling private schools getting state funding so long as the money is used in teaching science, English, mathematics and not propagating the idea that people can rise from the dead or that non-believers are sinners. That can be propagated in churches.
Posted by DavidJS, Thursday, 7 June 2007 8:18:00 AM
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Homosexuality is a sin. To support it or to encourage it would mean aiding someone in the destruction of their soul. That is something any Catholic college should think about very seriously.

Having said that, no Christian should ever bully another human being. No homosexual should be bullied or tormented. That too is sinful.

The school should be promoting kindness, charity and compassion to others because they are human beings, NOT because they are gay. We all deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, gays included. BECAUSE that is the essence of Christ.

But to sanction and or support homosexuality does nothing for a homosexual except aid in the destruction of their soul. Something NO Catholic or Catholic college should EVER be a part of.

If they are willing to aid in the destruction of a homosexual's soul, then I, as a parent, could never allow my child to be around such individuals.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Thursday, 7 June 2007 8:55:29 AM
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The idea of homosexuality as a 'sin' is like my opinion that Christianity is no better than astrology or witchcraft or the Islamic belief that Catholics will go to hell for not being Muslim. They're opinions not facts and should be regarded as such.

Now obviously teachers and school administrators are human beings and have opinions. However, good teachers in the public and private systems will try to avoid inflicting those opinions on students when they are supposed to be educating students. And any school which discriminates against students (gay, Christian or atheist) be they public, Catholic or Muslim schools should face severe consequences including funding withdrawal.

Actually when I think about it, I would like to see some actual proof that Christianity is in fact superior to astrology or witchcraft.
Posted by DavidJS, Thursday, 7 June 2007 10:51:28 AM
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aqvarivs

I'd like to respond to your comments.

The great strength about Catholic Schools is their truly demonstrative ability to implement inclusive education ... not just speak the pedagogy, but deliver it.

socialism is their strength, not their weakness. They accept all. They do not judge.

Catholics are a broad demography. They are all included in their schools, and that's a tremendous opportunity for students from disadvantaged backgrounds that they can attend their schools and create social advantages for disadvantaged students. They are worthy of federal funding, and take much of the burden off public schooling.

Catholic mum of 3

Homophobia is a scurge in our society. Regardless of whether we consider homosexuality a sin or not, the point is that males are being bashed in schools because they are targeted as 'gay', regardless of whether they are gay or not.

Boys who do not meet an extremely narrow definition of 'masculinity' are frequently targeted for bullying that is nothing less than assault.

The fact that Catholic Education has acknowledged an issue with homophobia in their schools is demonstrative of their outstanding social justice awareness.
Posted by Liz, Thursday, 7 June 2007 11:02:22 PM
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What is homophobia? One who acknowledges the truth of it's sinfulness? Or one who torments and bullies homosexuals based on their sexual orientation? What exactly constitutes homophobia?

I've known and have considered homosexuals to be my friend. However a friend does not help their friend by leading them into temptation. Or by aiding them in the destruction of their soul. That is no friend.

If I lie to a homosexual and sanction their behavior, I've become a tool for the devil. I have done nothing to help them, but only hurt them.

Homosexuals need honesty, kindness and friendship. They do NOT need someone to mislead them into the false belief that their behavior is NOT sinful.

Not everyone will agree with the Church on this issue. That is their personal choice to make. God gives us free will. However, a Catholic school is obligated to teach the TRUTH. They should never participate in the destruction of another human being's soul.

This is NOT homophobia, this is standing up for truth. It's spiritual leadership. Leadership that does not compromise TRUTH because society rejects the teachings of Christ.

If you do not believe in the TRUTH Christ brought us, it's simple, do not attend a Catholic College.

But public funding comes from taxpayers who are diverse in their beliefs. People like me who do believe in the teachings of the Church. Why can't my tax dollars go towards an education that I believe in? Why do you wish to dictate how my tax dollars should be spent? If anyone is limiting CHOICE, it's those who refuse to allow my tax dollars to pay for an education I support.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Friday, 8 June 2007 2:00:45 AM
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Liz, religion and politics don't mix. If someone declares Catholic schools to be limiting choice then I say remove the public choice all together, as well as public funding. And get rid of the non Catholic teachers who have invaded the system and their working attempt to downgrade the catholic education system so that it is no different from the public school system. And I think we are talking about two different socialism. I'm not talking about universal brotherhood. I can get behind that(no pun intended for all you gays out there :-))I'm talking about the socialism of the lowest common denominator. Our school curriculum being designed for the acceptance of the least motivated rather than setting a bar that motivates and tests and inspires one to achieve. Not this promoting "get them through the system, nobody fails" socialism that is a pox on our society.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 8 June 2007 4:34:23 AM
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Catholic Mum of 3, As a Catholic who chooses not to send my children to Catholic schools your views epitomise the reasons why I do not. The primitive view that homosexuals are destroying thier souls is archaic and dangerous. Look at the enormous damage caused to the Catholic church by homosexual priests in the past who had to bury their sexuality and I believe often resulted in the sexual child abuse that is still coming to light. Many surveys have shown that the number of homosexuals in the clergy is actually much higher than in the rest of the population. Your willingness to accept 50's style church dogma shows a lack of true Christian belief in accepting all, forgiveness and actually encourages homophobia. People such as your self help to perpetuate the Catholic ghetto mentality that along with a certain smug superiority pervades much of the Catholic school system.
Posted by pdev, Friday, 8 June 2007 10:00:56 AM
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Catholic'Mom'of3 - I'm glad you're spreading your hate in the US, not here.

Of course, you don't give any reason for why homosexuality is a sin. It's simply 'sinful.' Why? Because 'it's sinful' or 'god said so.'

Much the same as Islamic extremist prejudice against non-believers. 'God said so' or 'it's a sin.'
Even though you don't express your views with violence, at the heart, lies the same bigotry.

You don't have reasons. Only commandments. Therefore, you can't be reasoned with, because you're not capable of negotiating - you've left all that to a higher power. How nice and convenient to not have to use your own reasoning powers, instead being able to resort to a handbook to justify your hatred.

What business is it of yours, and what right have you to judge what people do in their own homes - they're not harming you.

In the way you claim to be friends with homosexuals but won't countenance their way of life, I'm sure they feel the same way about your irrational prejudice - it's that kind of prejudice that has so much sectarian violence occurring throughout the world, with people unable to resolve their differences.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 8 June 2007 10:12:18 AM
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I always crack a wry smile when the likes of CatholicMomOf3 claim to have gay friends. Yeah, right! And I'm a Catholic "Mom" of 10.

The problem our dear Catholic mother and like-minded Torquemadas face in wanting to purge the Catholic education system of gays (and others who don't toe the "correct" line on homosexuality) is that the system would be in danger of falling in a heap. Then again, why am I complaining about that?
Posted by DavidJS, Friday, 8 June 2007 11:29:00 AM
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Before we all join a rush to gang up on CMO3, I’d like to point out that there are a few things about ‘her’ posts that don’t add up.

First, ‘she’ is quite out of step with most catholics these days. The Australia Institute’s 2005 survey found that only 35% per cent of catholics think that homosexuality is immoral http://www.tai.org.au/documents/downloads/WP79.pdf (Page 14), so the very fundamentalist views ‘she’ is expressing are actually quite extreme within the catholic church. I know quite a few catholic mums, and I’ve never heard one of them talk like this.

Second, the style of rhetoric is more what we get from less mainstream fundamentalist christians. Catholicism emphasises the new testament, while COM3’s views are firmly rooted in the old testament.

Third, CMO3 joined OLO to participate in this discussion. Also noteworthy is that ‘she’ chose the American spelling of Mom.

In short, I reckon CMO3 is a fraud, and ‘her’ posts are trolls, intended to do nothing more than provoke an extreme reaction. I’d recommend ignoring them.
Posted by jpw2040, Friday, 8 June 2007 11:49:51 AM
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If CMO3 is for real (which I'm also doubtful of), then she's probably immune to argument anyway. She has the ever circular 'faith' argument to fall back on. Still, its worth remembering that with three kids, there's a 15% chance one of them will turn out gay. Maybe that would change her tone a little.
Posted by spendocrat, Friday, 8 June 2007 1:20:49 PM
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The Catholic Church teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).

The Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).

Jewish and Christian scholars have recognized that one of the chief sins involved in God’s destruction of Sodom was its people’s homosexual behavior. The Sodom incident is not the only time the Old Testament deals with homosexuality. An explicit condemnation:(Lev. 18:22, 20:13).

Those who oppose homosexual behavior are often charged with "homophobia..because they are "afraid" of homosexuals. This argument attempts to stop rational discussion by shifting the focus to one of the participants.

The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are not "afraid" of homosexuals. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying "homophobe!" falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Friday, 8 June 2007 10:38:12 PM
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CMO3
It would appear from what you say that the good Cardinal, and indeed also the Holy Father, are going against the teachings of their own church in failing to give succour to those who are thus afflicted.

It seems therefore that you should be applauding the Tasmanian government for their non-discriminatory legislation.
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 8 June 2007 11:31:48 PM
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Oh but on the contrary VK3AUU; Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact Courage, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle.

Courage,
Church of St. John the Baptist
210 W. 31st St., New York, NY 10001
(212) 268–1010 Web: http://couragerc.net

Paul writes in Corinthians, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).

The New Testament’s forceful rejection of homosexual behavior: In Romans 1, Paul attributes the homosexual desires of some to a refusal to acknowledge and worship God. He says, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. . . . Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them" (Rom. 1:26–28, 32).
Paul again warns that homosexual behavior is one of the sins that will deprive one of heaven: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).

All of Scripture teaches the unacceptability of homosexual behavior. If you reject the teachings of Christ, that is your choice, however the Church has not.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Saturday, 9 June 2007 9:20:23 AM
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If you think your bible is a good resource for morals, then it's as I suspected - you are immune to argument. You can't argue the teachings of a book to people who know it to be nonsense in the first place.
Posted by spendocrat, Saturday, 9 June 2007 1:27:19 PM
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And by the way, you are absolutely correct in stating that the bible considers homosexuality a sin. It's one of many good reasons to throw that sucker in the trash.
Posted by spendocrat, Saturday, 9 June 2007 1:42:30 PM
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Spendocrat, out of curiosity, exactly where do you get your morals from? Do we as human beings get to make up our own set of morals? If so, that means we all get to have our own set of morals to follow. That being the case what about those who do not believe crimes are immoral? At what point do you finally say something is wrong? How do you determine right from wrong?

In a court of law, it takes one eye witness to bring about a conviction. In the Bible you have many who saw the risen Christ. You have many who testify to the miracles. In the Gospel there is not just ONE individual as an eye witness but hundreds of people testifying to the miracles and the risen Christ.

Based on your theology, which appears to dismiss historical records of eye witnesses, all history should be discarded. Do you accept anything that has been recorded in history? And if so, how do you get to pick and choose what is authentic and what is not? What is your expertise in theology and history?
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Sunday, 10 June 2007 12:07:28 AM
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CMO3

I note that Paul had a whole list of sins which precluded entry into the Kingdom, but the Church seem to have a fetish with some sins of the flesh (but until recently has ignored others) and in the main tends to gloss over other sins such as drunkenness. Forgiveness seems to be somewhat arbitrary too.
Posted by VK3AUU, Sunday, 10 June 2007 11:33:39 AM
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VK3AUU, You seem to be indicating that the Church is made up of imperfect human beings. Human beings that can and are sinful. Holy does not mean pefect, yet the Church IS Holy.
Christ chose imperfect men as his Apostles to carry on the mission of His Church. Was Christ wrong to pick imperfect men ? Look at the story of Saul who persecuted and killed Christians. Yet who writes in the New Testament? Paul, the imperfect man.
The Doctrine remains in tact from the moment Christ gave the keys to Peter. (an imperfect man)
Your argument seems to be that since there are imperfect human beings in the Church, that the Church should be dismissed? Yet if you are a Christian who looks to the Bible as a source of Truth, then you in fact have accepted a Church of imperfect human beings. Imperfect human beings wrote the books in the Bible. Imperfect human beings also canonized the Bible. The Catholic Church.
I'm missing your argument? Because by accepting your argument, I have to also accept that Christ made a mistake in choosing imperfect men to be His apostles. I don't believe He made a mistake.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Sunday, 10 June 2007 11:00:22 PM
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Is it not also possible that your imperfect men have misrepresented what it was that God has had to say and that your House of God is really built of straw?
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 11 June 2007 7:55:02 AM
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CMO3

you talk absolute nonsensical twaddle - religious gobbledegook.

If you want to be taken seriously, first define what you mean by "sin"
Posted by last word, Monday, 11 June 2007 12:12:07 PM
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last word, don't be so bloody thick mate this isn't grade one for dills. Follow the ladies thinking if your capable and post your counter arguments. If you want to be taken seriously grow up.

VK3AUU, it's possible but not likely, since your attitude would be the follow up position and few human beings are really into slagging religion to raise their personal self-esteem, especially from a position of moral interpitude.
Posted by aqvarivs, Monday, 11 June 2007 2:57:16 PM
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VK3AUU You countered my questions/argument with a question which never addressed the argument I made. Do you look to the Bible for Truth? If so, how can you do that, knowing the Catholic Church canonized the Bible for you, AND that the indivduals who wrote the books in the Bible were imperfect human beings? Christ, Himself chose Peter and gave him the "Keys". He gave the Keys to an imperfect man. HE gave His authority to the Apostles, who were also imperfect men. This in no way sanctions sinful behavior, but it does show us that Christ, through His authority, passed on "authority" to the Apostles who then passed it on through the Apostolic succession, to IMPERFECT and SINFUL men. You didn't answer my question, WAS Christ in error when He did this? Was he mistaken or wrong to do this? Please consider what you are suggesting and either defend it or abandon it all together. If you are a Christian, you need to really look at the very argument you just made. If you reject Christ and the Bible, then simply say so. It would at least, then, make sense.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 4:30:31 AM
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Last Word, In the Bible it states, the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. The Bible was canonized to SUPPORT the Church. The Bible itself supports the Church as the pillar and foundation of TRUTH.

The Resurrected Christ was witnessed by many people. I suppose 2,000 years from now, there will be many who will want to portray the Holocaust as never happening. In fact, there are many who wish to do that right now. But denying a TRUTH, does not make it false.

I'm just not sure how one can completely deny what has been handed down through Tradition and the Bible? Manuscripts have been discovered which support the New Testament has better textual support than the texts of Plato, ARistotle and a few others.

Entire manuscripts of the NT are dated to within 300 years of completion. Compare this to secular Classical writers where we've found original documents dated from between 900 and 1300 years.
John Rylands Fragment of the NT which contains John 18:31-33 was dated as early as 115 A. D. Look at The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable? By Frederick Fyvie Bruce.

I'm just not sure how one can intellectually dismiss the many hard-core facts from historians.

Truly if you support and embrace Truth, you will, instead of dismissing the many historical facts of Scripture, begin to look further into this complex topic.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 4:51:40 AM
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So the Bible states "The Truth". This line of thought has lead to countless deaths over the centuries thanks to fanatics telling everyone else they have "The Truth" and killing those who are supposedly unenlightened. And I don't just mean Catholics. Protestants are just as bad and of course we have Islamic terrorists blowing people up just because they have "The Truth" (the Koran in this case) and "the infidels" don't. Not to mention the likes of Hitler, Mao and other dictators who set up cults of personality where the leadership cannot be wrong.

How about a bit of self-doubt for a change? How about thinking you might be wrong once in a while? Good educators teach students to question supposed truths and not hold up particular books as be all and end all.
Posted by DavidJS, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 9:31:38 AM
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aqvarivs

Mate,

it may come as a surprise to you but gratuitous insults are not argument.

Your lady friend, CMO3, stated that: "Homosexuality is a sin"
I am being entirely reasonable requesting her to define what she means by "sin".

This shouldn't be too hard. Would you like to have a go on her behalf; or don't you like being questioned on your god's wisdom?

And what about the lady's thinking, to which you attach so much importance?
I quote her:

" But to sanction and or support homosexuality does nothing for a homosexual except aid in the destruction of their soul. Something NO Catholic or Catholic college should EVER be a part of. If they are willing to aid in the destruction of a homosexual's soul, then I, as a parent, could never allow my child to be around such individuals."

and

"In the Bible it states, the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. The Bible was canonized to SUPPORT the Church. The Bible itself supports the Church as the pillar and foundation of TRUTH"

Aqvarivs, mate, what is there in this religobabble that I should be thinking about? It is nonsense.

Or perhaps, mate, you have to be especially thick to get it?

If this is the sort of silly tripe that you wish to be taught in your New exclusive Catholic education system, then the best of luck.
Is this the sort of thing you want your kids to be taught? If so, then god help your kids.

The non religious community is getting tired of religious brainwashed, delusionary, nutters like you and your "lady" friend, CMO3 , spouting absolute tripe. Wake up, mate, you are living in a mediaeval cloud cuckoo land.

Aqvarivs, mate, you and your "lady" friend seem to be intent on imposing Catholic psychobabble on other members of the OLO community, in what was an interesting discussion.

Can I suggest that you join an online religous newsgroup?

Here you can indulge with other Religio-lobotomised indivividuals in your fantasy beliefs, without offending and insulting the saner members of the online community.
Posted by last word, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 11:15:38 AM
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It may have already happened, but let's find a parallel.

Me and my mates thing that historically Unions gave protection, but, we really don't like strident unionism, but prefer AWA's, so we join the union, en masse, and change its manifesto to reflect the mind of big business and what suits us.

Meanwhile, real trade unionists become disillusioned and are reluctantly forced to support a concept and tradition that has now been hijacked, because, unfortunately, not many are left who remember seeing the light (or cross!)on the hill.

The Union leadership, shocked by the disrepect for tradition from growing numbers of 'members' then decides to implement or enforce some of its membership provisions and purge the Union of 'non-believers.'

Now that leadership might get ousted, or the Union might just get closed down or change into a social club, but, it aint the Union is used to be.

This is the problem facing Catholic Schools. Being compassionate to gays or shoplifters, drug users or abortionists and the like doesn't mean we should tolerate their behaviour or life choices and reaffirm them as positive experiences. You don't need a Bible to know that.

Treating people fairly in employment doesn't need an AWA either, but, employing someone as an instructor in plumbing who doesn't like water will see them less able to provide hands on learning for apprentices. Likewise, non-practicing Catholics teaching students in a faith saturated environment doesn't 'hold water' either if they are too busy pushing other agendas.

Why send your children to a school system you so deride or can only support when it blindly accepts your secular agenda? Shame on the Church for being so out manouvered on this one is Tassie. Shame on Tassie being ruled by minorities...
Posted by Reality Check, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 11:31:08 AM
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last word, I suggest you read my posts and discover my opinion. I have submitted some personal thinking about having non-believers attending a religious administrated school.
Your post in question was base derision not anything more and your answering post was no more opinion on the article or any articulate argument to CMof3 post. Your just ranting against the machine ridiculing religion and anyone of faith who has a religious POV. What you really want is a quorum where you can rant against religion and show everyone how clever you are. Your on the wrong thread. "I'm too clever to understand religion or what constitutes sin." Is so punk. And begs the question why your even reading a religious thread? Every idiot who suceeded in passing through kindergarten knows what sin is.
Better than having to use your scroll wheel, read the post by Reality Check. I couldn't have said it any better.
If your not Catholic or religious what are you doing sending your children to a Catholic school or attending one yourself? It's not like there is no public school for you to coast through
Posted by aqvarivs, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 12:57:24 PM
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some history:
Education in NSW 1866. In 14 years, upto 1880, changes proposed to alter the law making the education under it to make it more secular and more directly the function of the State (Sir Henry Parkes, 50 years Australian History, ChI Vol II) -- The 1866 Education Act provided for the establishment of Public Schools of a non-sectarian character, and contined support of denominational schools upon conditions (trained teachers, same text bks, inspection). One hour a day to be set aside in public schools for RI.
Their were those that opposed the non-sectarian nature of public education, and Parkes saw control exercised by the priest as oft overbearing.
The Roman Catholics maintained their own schools. The argument was RCs would be supporting non-denominational schools if they did not receive public funds, otherwise RCs could argue the situation was oppressive. (1870's; 1/3 of population RC). Parkes advocated equal funding from the public purse.
IN 1879 the RC Church attacked secular schools as 'godless education' and as 'seedplots of future immorality, infidelity and lawlessness'.

Unfortunately, the RC Archbishop & Bishops saw something in a secular education system, that some 140 or so years later is appearing all too true. Immorality, infidelity and lawlessness have become acceptable social habits in 2007.
The Anglican Church, and Protestant Churches seemed all too willing to join the new secular system. The fact that one hour per day was set aside, in the original Act, for RI has all but faded to a miserable ignorance of Christian principles in our lives.

If one wants to divorce Church from State, a highly significant means of achieving this is with a secular education curriculum. Divorcing Church and State has potentially devastating affects on society. Men with power will ensure that potential is used for EVIL.

Lewie 15 Jun 07
Posted by Lewie, Tuesday, 12 June 2007 8:50:57 PM
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Last word, since you brought up my kids, I will tell you they are 15, 12 and 8. All of them attend Catholic schools and come from a devout Catholic family. Not perfect, but always striving.
The schooling and homelife they get is well grounded in Christianity. They are taught what sin is, and how to live a faithful Christian life. They are taught the most important aspect of Christianity which you will find in Beatitudes for instance. They attend a very strict and orthodox Catholic school that does not shy away from teaching what sin is, and how one can overcome temptation. They are also taught to love, respect and honor all human beings. They are not taught hatred or how to degrade other human beings. In fact, just the opposite is true. I know this doesn't sit well with those who prefer to think that Catholics simply want to torment homosexuals. The fact of the matter is, they are the last people who would harm another person based soley on the fact that they were gay. We are all sinners. It doesn't make sense to commit sins while harming other sinners. Yes, one can teach that homosexuality is a sin and at the same time, not teach them to hate homosexuals.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 5:54:59 AM
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CatholicMomO3's views on homosexuality seem pretty whimpy compared with some True Believers:

http://www.tencommandments.org/homosexual.html

But that raises a serious question - if homosexuality is a "sin" so appalling that it warrants the death penalty, shouldn't all good Christian educators be teaching their students this "Truth"? Shouldn't Pell be openly saying that?

On another note, I do hope that Catholic schools in Tasmania and elsewhere manage to squeeze in other parts of the curriculum apart from discussing people's sexual orientation (fun though that may be). Reading, for example. Or perhaps some maths as well.
Posted by DavidJS, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 9:14:12 AM
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David,I'm still trying to figure out who the "true believers" are? The Church does not believe in the death penalty for homosexuals, anymore than it believes in the death penalty for those who commit sins like lying, cheating, etc. You may consider that whimpy, that that's why we have free will, granted to us by God. We can accept or reject any theology presented.
I have full faith in Christ and follow the teachings of the Church because that is the doctrine of Christianity. Christ left the authority with the apostles who've continued to hand down that authority until today. There is a sense of peace when you accept Christ into your life. No one is forcing this upon anyone, but it's there for those who seek it.
I'm a born skeptic, however when you read the gospels, when you study church history, when you logically think about all of those people who saw the miracles, who saw the risen Christ, and who understand that Christ left His kingdom, the Church, for us, then it's a simple step to take.
One day we will all face some sort of suffering, tribulation, crisis in our life. That is the time when we draw closest to God. Those who retreat will find anxiety, fear and all sorts of other troubles in their life. Those who embrace this "cross" will find peace, strength, and tranquility. Pray for this in your life, and you will not be abandonded!
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 11:20:05 PM
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The church does not believe in the death penalty for homosexuals? So says you, CatholicMomO3. Obviously there are Christians who do believe in the death penalty for homosexuals. There are Muslims who also believe in killing gays in the name of God. So who is right?

This is problem with religion and with religious education. Absolutist and conflicting beliefs with have historically caused no end of misery. That is not to say this problem doesn't exist in the secular world. Mao Zedong holds the record for the biggest death toll caused by any dictator. But again the problem is an absolutist ideology.

An education system can only work if students are taught to think about things, question what they hear and read and present their own conclusions. Otherwise, we don't have an education system. We have indoctrination.
Posted by DavidJS, Thursday, 14 June 2007 7:41:57 AM
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David, please do not pin a denomination willing to promote the death penalty on homosexuals, WITH the Catholic CHurch. As I said, we do not believe in this and reject it.
You appear to oppose religion all together, which makes me wonder if you are an atheist? Or simply believe there is a God and that's as far in depth as you'd like to take your own beliefs?
As I stated in a prior post, I'm not sure how anyone can deny or dismiss the historical facts laid out in the New Testament. You have yet to really show any intellectual facts and/or arguments that counter what is presented in the Gospels. I suppose we all have the right to simply reject anything we want, however rejecting such beliefs doesn't make you right. Especially when you have absolutely nothing but your opinion to back it up. 2000 years from now there will be plenty of people out there promoting the belief that the holocaust never happend. In spite of all the documentation and first hand accounts that it did. I would suggest a thorough examination of church history and read the Gospels. If it were one person reporting on all of this, it might be a bit hard to swallow. However, knowing that so many people were eyewitnesses and then went on to die for Christ tells me a lot. How many people do you know who would put their own life on the line, and actually go to their death, for a lie? Yet many of the early Christians did. Look at how the Apostles died. Do you honestly think they would die a brutal death for a lie? I'm a born skeptic and a very logical person, and all of my skepticism and logic cannot begin to make me deny the Truth.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Thursday, 14 June 2007 8:09:11 AM
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It is one thing to believe in the existence of Jesus Christ. I hold that much to be true. It is another to believe that He rose from the dead. I do not. Nor do I believe that Moses parted the Red Sea (although Moses himself seems to have existed) and I also don't think humanity began with Adam and Eve. Yes, I am an atheist (a gay one as well). I am an atheist probably in the same way you (and I for that matter) disregard astrology or fortune telling. That is, I have seen no evidence for why I should believe in any god or adhere to a system of beliefs attached thereof.

I don't think it is useful to reject every event as fiction. The Holocaust certainly was real. However, documented genocides are in a different category to, say Noah's cruise around the world or Jonah's unusual accommodation.

Does that clear up where I am coming from, "Mom"?
Posted by DavidJS, Thursday, 14 June 2007 9:53:57 AM
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I suppose now is the time I'm "supposed" to throw rocks at you. It wont happen. It is our belief that you are every bit a child of God, as I am. So to cast stones at you, would mean casting stones at a child of God, and that just is not the essence of Christ.

I understand your skepticism, and I suppose we can go round and round. I would ask you, if you haven't already, to read the New Testament. I think there are far too many witnesses and too many miracles to reject.

I don't know too many human beings who would put their own life on the line to spread the Gospel. Yet that is exactly what many of the early Christians did. I'm not even sure I'd be that brave or committed to Christ if it meant a gruesome death. Yet many of them had the power of the Holy Spirit and the understanding that life isn't just about the time we spend on earth. That there was more to this life and they had eye witness proof to that.

The fact that they were willing to die a gruesome death, be imprisoned, tortured, etc. for what? Would they do this for a lie? It just doesn't make sense.

Then you have the story of Saul who persecuted and killed Christians and never was an apostle of Jesus. He is blinded in the desert and his conversion. I just can't see how anyone who truly wants the truth, can continue to dismiss this without good and factual evidence.

Well as I tell my children, no matter what we do in life, Christ is always there with His arms wide open ready and waiting for us to come back to Him when we go astray.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:01:58 PM
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Why does the Catholic Church excommunicate those who it feels have gone astray? Aren't they putting themselves above God?
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:35:25 PM
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I've gone astray most of my life, yet I've never been excommunicated. I think referring to one who simply is astray as worthy of excommunication, is a bit simplistic. Most Christians are "astray" and NEED the Church to help guide them. So I think your definition of how one becomes excommunicated isn't necessarily accurate.
However there are those who are excommunicated from the Church and there is a misconception that this is done in a "vindictive" manner. That simply is not accurate. It's actually done in a medicinal manner, for those committing grave offenses, in order to correct them and bring them back into the path of righteousness.
God is our father, and any parent understands the importance of tough love, every once in a while. You hope it never comes to that point with your children, but there are those extenuating circumstances where you have to impose a punishment on your child out of pure love.
Excommunication is meant as a medicine to inspire people to repent and be reconciled to the Church.
I think a simplistic example would be....if I sat down with 2 children to play a game with rules. One child plays the game, making mistakes from time to time and I as their mother, corrects them along the way. The other child refuses to listen to me, cheating at every opportunity and refusing to obey the rules of the game. I love these children, but I cannot allow the defiant child to continue playing the game with us, for obvious reasons. So I exclude that child from playing, until that child understands and realizes that he doesn't need to be a perfect human being to play, but he must at least make some effort to play by the rules, as opposed to cheating and defying them.
That maybe a simplistic way of explaining excommunication, but I think you can at least get a basic understanding that it's not done in a sense of vindictiveness. It's actually done out of love and concern for those who are blatently defying the Church.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:55:00 PM
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I’m sure I heard a grab from the Howard gov’t about giving school principals some freedom to dismiss poorly performing teachers . I suppose that could be of some concern to those who might be inclined to economize with lessons on core subjects to make room for teachings of the gospel according to Rodney C & his ilk .
When added to the above the prospect of catholic schools being able to exercise that pesky freedom of religion thing in an effort to better maintain certain core moral values , The road to the city of Sodom could become intolerably steep .
Gosh , Worrying times indeed for poor Rod .
Posted by jamo, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 11:34:15 PM
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"I would ask you, if you haven't already, to read the New Testament. I think there are far too many witnesses and too many miracles to reject" says CatholicMom03.

In recent times there have been many "witnesses" to alien landings and kidnappings of "earthlings". There have been numerous "sightings" of the Loch Ness monster and some people long after the events in the Bible apparently have been visited by the Virgin Mary. The phenomena these so-called witnesses see can be explained in more rational ways.

For a start, people are able to construct what they want to see and experience. This explains False Memory Syndrome where some people, apparently victims of sexual abuse, actually experienced no such abuse at all. Witnesses in criminal trials today can be unreliable. This is also the case with witnesses two thousand years ago.

Secondly, in the era of Jesus Christ, modern scientific explanations were unavailable to His contemporaries. So, for example, He appeared to raise Lazarus from the dead. They didn't understand that Lazarus was probably in a coma. Not to mention that fact that the life of Jesus Christ was written years after He died. Historians are always wary of totally believing accounts written long after the events in question.

Also, if the Catholic Church wishes to teach that miracles are real, how can they also teach science? For example, either the solar system is a miracle of God or it can be explained scientifically. If the Catholic Church opts for the former then they have no business in education and should concentrate on proselytising.

On a positive note, at least the Vatican now acknowledges the Earth goes around the Sun. But that took a while, didn't it?
Posted by DavidJS, Thursday, 21 June 2007 1:57:46 PM
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David, there are those, whom when confronted with video surveilance of an event, will still deny the event took place. As one of the biggest skeptics, I understand how difficult it must be to accept Christianity. As we all know, there are those already denying the Holocaust ever happened. I cannot imagine my life without my faith. I understand the power of prayer, because I've seen it work in my own life. Sounds like we simply will have to agree to disagree, and I wish you well!! :-)
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Thursday, 21 June 2007 9:57:05 PM
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Dear CatholicMom03 (I feel like we're old friends), you are right in that we won't convince each other. But I will say that there are three basic ways of looking at events:

Firstly, they can be explained. The Holocaust is one of those events where a combination of countless documents, witnesses and perpetrators provide rational accounts of why such a terrible event took place.

Secondly, they can't be explained...yet. The Black Death in 14th Century Europe was originally thought to be punishment from God or the work of Jews or some other non-rational idea. Now we know it occurred due to bacteria carried by fleas which infested a species of rat and was highly contageous. And assisted by filthy living conditions in that era.

Thirdly, they can only be explained as the work of some supernatural force.

Any education system which wants to maintain its credibility opts for the first and second ways of interpreting events.
Posted by DavidJS, Friday, 22 June 2007 8:11:53 AM
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Aqvarivs you are so wrong. How can you make such an ill-informed broad sweeping statement such as ‘watered down the curriculum……by creeping socialist agenda from non-Catholic teachers’? You should be giving us creeping socialist non-Catholic teachers accolades for working so tirelessly, at times in very difficult circumstances, to breakdown the archaic and very deeply entrenched pedagogical practices of the some of those Catholic teachers within the hierarchy of the Catholic education system. Give us a break!
Posted by Marty Hoare, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 7:44:56 PM
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Dear Marty,
Would you care to elaborate on exactly what you mean by the archaic and deeply entrenched pedagogical practices of Catholic teachers? If you are a non-Catholic teacher working in a Catholic school, do you really have the right to undermine the faith in such a way as you seem to be suggesting? My advise to non-Catholic teacher is, if you are so opposed to the faith, why would you even consider teaching there?

Marty writes.......
You should be giving us creeping socialist non-Catholic teachers accolades for working so tirelessly, at times in very difficult circumstances, to breakdown the archaic and very deeply entrenched pedagogical practices of the some of those Catholic teachers within the hierarchy of the Catholic education system.
Posted by CatholicMomOf3, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 10:00:42 PM
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Marty Hoare, Your desire to make changes to the Catholic Educational system as a non Catholic with no commitment to the practice of the faith (as a right), to bring in leftist policy into a conservative institution (as a right), etc.. We really don't need your assistance in transforming Catholic schools into a godless public institution batted back and forth by the socialist whim of the day. Thanks but no thanks. Leave us to our archaic pedagogical practices. And go practice your rights at someone else's expense. Catholic Schools ought not to be in name only. One doesn't apply to a business college to learn oil painting or auto mechanics, does one? How can I say all this? Simple. My parents went to Catholic schools, I went to Catholic schools, and my children go to Catholic schools. We are aware of the changes and the politics and we don't like it in our schools. There are plenty of public schools for you to redecorate according to your “need”.
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 5 July 2007 8:14:14 AM
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