goodthief , it is a sorry state of affairs if you see my posts as 'abuse'. I merely support the victim here. I am often attcked and abused for not subscribing to the myth that Christianists or Islamists are good people with the best possible motives just because they believe in god.

If it is the fact I am not superstitious and will be honest in my appraisal if Christianity I can not apologise. I am not superstitious and I* find it extremely disrespectful that it is assumed that I should take the belief in god seriously.

I could be swayed by gut feeling and assume you are Christian. If you are Christian then it is unlikely you are interested in conversation as most are not but to tell me what you expect of me based on your beliefs. I equally accuse you that what you are doing to me is passively aggressively abusing me for not believing in your deities.

A close Christian friend told me I can be shocking because as a Christian she just assumed that everybody must respect Christians because they are saved. She actually thanked me for opening her eyes to her own arrogance. In fact she is now a much more caring person than when she was a bible toting church goer. If you want a pat on the back for having faith in the occult I suggest see a priest, you wont get it from me. Can we get past that and think about the woman who is faced with the delema a pregnancy may present? Or does the 'Justification by Jesus' argument have to be defunct on a daily basis?

I accept I can be shocking , but its not about me , in this case its about women whos suffering is ampliphied by the persecution they recieve from Christianists. That the occult superstition of Pauls cult of Christ is associated with violence , horror and evil , is relevant because the Pro-life movement are certainly not inspired by love, infact they are inspired by the opposite.

West,

Thanks for writing. Just calling your posts as I see them.

Yes, I’m a Christian. I don’t know what you mean by “Christianist”, but you can tell me. What I mean by Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ in two senses – in the human Jesus as role model and in the divine Christ as saviour. A standard Christian. Politically , I straddle Right and Left, increasingly to the Left.

I would recommend Jesus as a role model to anyone. Most people agree, but of course they disagree about the Son of God business. I haven’t yet heard a better ethic than “Love your neighbour as yourself”.

My emotional response to being “saved” is relief and gratitude. For a short time, I was quite pleased with myself, but got over it.

I don’t “expect” you to believe in God. Because I believe God really exists, I of course think people should recognise it, as it is a very large fact. However, I know many Christians behave badly when evangelising – using fear, hard sell, manipulation, all sorts of techniques that do not recognise the freedom of their target audience to say Yes or No.

It may not help, but their motives are not always bad. Remember, they really believe this stuff. And many of them believe that non-believers will spend eternity in Hell if the believers don’t head them off. They believe God is really counting on them. I think they’re wrong, that God will find a way to make sure Hell is populated only by people who prefer to be there – very few, I suspect.

As for pro-lifers, I’ve said often that they have long abandoned the woman/girl. Too busy wagging their finger at her. To be so zealous for the child and merciless to the woman/girl is mad and wicked. I think that’s changing. I’d like to see all parties live, and live as happily as the world can arrange for them.

Pax,

"Because I believe God really exists, I of course think people should recognise it, as it is a very large fact." Goodthief you have to excuse people for not recognising that fact because the fact is god is myth.No baby is born a god believer , it takes a 'hell' load of child abuse before the child will hold the concept of god. Jesus as a moral figure? Thats just another Christian myth and nothing more , according to the character of Jesus only Jews went to heaven , thus he is exclusionary and thus immoral. I dont think plagerising the love they neighbour motto from the Hellenists and Zorastrians cancels out the bad values held by Jesus. Anti family too , Jesus abandoned his widowed mother to satisfy his ego in the self belief he was to be deified (Greek style). Little wonder concepts of freedom , justice , liberty and democracy are under attack by god believers. Christians improving? Evangilism is proof it is getting worst.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a doctor in an authoritarian regime could face imprisonment or even death for giving women access to abortion. How would Catholic members of Amnesty cope with that? What about countries where gay people face the death penalty? Are Catholic (or Muslim or Jewish etc) Amnesty members able to put anti-gay prejudices to one side in order to combat blatant human rights abuses of gay people?

Atheist members of Amnesty should be able to defend Christians being persecuted in places such as China. Likewise, Christian members of Amnesty should work on behalf of people whose rights are being violated even if they personally don't adhere to those people's beliefs - including their views on abortion.

Today I washed my hands after using the toilet. Am I going to hell for murdering a tiny group of non-self-aware cells?

What is the pope's position on bacteria? Should antibiotics be outlawed as instruments of murder?

The article was titled 'Prochoice Amnesty means no choice for members.'

No one in the above postings has assessed the critical issue - the process of how AI achieved a policy position that a substantial proportion of its membership were not happy with or even knew about.

The members of AI have a very clear choice - get in there and fix the problem of leadership /policy making teams not responding to the needs of the membership and focussing on issues such as the imprisonment of blind Chinese Nationals prepared to challenge the coersive behaviour of their government.

Of course, no AI members will be attending or watching the 2008 Olympics, nor supporting the commercial sponsors - just about to cancel my Visa card now...

And Col, re huge sledge of Catholic Church, see following links and note that the following quote was not found in the secular press:

While he is not religious, Wilson indicated a deep respect for the Catholic faith. "Let's face it," he told a reporter: "without the Roman Catholic Church there would be no Western civilization."

Philanthropist To Donate $23M To Archdiocese

http://www.nysun.com/article/55056
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5331498

As for family planning choices, the only choices are "why am I having sex that will result in conception" and will we "loving accept children" and accept the imposition and subsequent 'sacrifices' or opportunity costs.

Of course this presumes a stable relationship. Economic adversity etc also plays a part, but, raising a family is no longer a sound economic decision. Mind you, I am banking on one of my 6.7 kids being against euthanasia, just as 0.7 is banking on my wife and I being prepared to let him remain alive, even though the trips to Bali would have been nice...