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The Forum > Article Comments > Australians in denial ... > Comments

Australians in denial ... : Comments

By Bruce Pascoe, published 21/5/2007

Why do we maintain the myth of a crude Aboriginal civilisation meandering hopelessly across the continent?

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With respect to FrankGol:

'And what did Bruce Pascoe do?'

He failed to provide an accurate, factual portrayal of the reality of mainland Australian Indigenous societies for impressionable sections of his audience. He risked misleading them off into an imaginary lost golden-age continent of democracy, economic plenty, advanced technology, stone town halls, eel farms and plains of waving grain.

What did FrankGol do? He tried to excuse Pascoe's flaws, on the grounds that he wasn't to be taken literally and means well.

'Should we just ignore this evidence of advanced Indigenous economic activity' (i.e. some isolated stone traps and channels, eel harvesting, grain and yam collecting)? No, but we are not ignoring it, and it is inaccurate to characterise it as 'advanced' (unless we are prepared to add the word 'paleolithic' to the phrase, as that would probably be more accurate).

Should I shut up, worried that I might be encouraging people like Kenny (‘Aboriginals never got out of the stone age.’) to turn away from evidence that challenges their blind ignorance? No, because Kenny might not be all wrong - he just calls a stone axe a stone axe, after all - and because when you are debating issues in OnLineOpinion at least, the truth is sometimes more important than sensitivity about hurting the feelings of misguided people. Obscuring accuracy helps nobody except the exploiters and the obscurantists.
Posted by Dan Fitzpatrick, Monday, 21 May 2007 5:32:44 PM
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What drugs are you using FrankGol? They certainly must be assisting in your flight from reality. Actually one would wonder what drugs the writers of one of the documents he refers us to are using as well? This is the Commonwealth Government gazette of July 20, 2004, referenced at http://www.ag.gov.au/portal/govgazonline.nsf/3CEEEC8EC2A2D602CA256ED7000C458C/$file/PG%207.pdf

According to one section in this document, "Mount Eccles is an ancestral creation being Budj bim and the scoria cones are described as tung att – teeth belong it (Clark 1990a; 1990b; Builth 2003). It therefore demonstrates the process through which Aboriginal creation beings reveal themselves in the landscape". (Page 5)

Mount Eccles demonstrates the process through which Aboriginal creation beings reveal themselves in the landscpe ONLY if you wish to toss overboard the entire science of geology. The trouble is that Aboriginal ancestral creation beings never ever existed. They are no more real than fairies, hobgoblins and mythical taniwha swimming in New Zealand lakes.

As for the stone foundations of what would otherwise have been simple thatched huts being evidence of "complex housing", one wonders what the author might make of other indigenous achievements elsewhere in the world. There is a world of difference between the remnants of Aboriginal culture in western Victoria and real civilisations such as that of the Aztec, the Inca or the Maya of modern-day Latin America.
Posted by Snappy Tom, Monday, 21 May 2007 7:26:45 PM
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“What do I think of Western civilisation"?

"I think it would be a very good idea.”

- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 21 May 2007 8:21:20 PM
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Dan Fitzpatrick
Until you show evidence of having read something about the advanced technology that Bruce Pascoe referred to (or read anything for that matter) I’m wasting my time. (Feel free to do what you like with yours).

As you so rightly say, “Obscuring accuracy helps nobody except the exploiters and the obscurantists.” The cap fits you, Dan.

Snappy Tom,

Your sooo subtle reference to drugs can pass; at least you have made an effort to read one of the references. Pity you chose to ignore the technological descriptions and rubbish the creationist theories that we all know have now been superseded by geological science (although neo-creationist theories are resurgent in western culture too at present).

The Government Gazette reports that the system of ponds, wetlands, channels, weirs and fish and eel traps eel along the Tyrendarra lava flow in the Mt Eccles/Lake Condah area are of “outstanding heritage value”. And for good reason.

“Gunditj Mara people constructed the channels to manipulate water flows and the weirs to modify and create wetlands that provided ideal growing conditions for the shortfinned eel and other fish…This system is confined to Western Victoria and shows a high degree of creativity not found in freshwater fish traps in other parts of Australia.”

I’m not sure what merit there is in ranking civilizations in terms of their size and architectural complexity. Contexts count. I admire and value what you call “real civilizations” such as those found in what is now modern-day Latin America. I also admire and appreciate what has been recovered in Western Victoria. As Bruce Pascoe said, “Enjoy it, learn that you live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.”
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 5:28:59 PM
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Frankie boy ... the development of a system of ponds, wetlands, channels, weirs and fish and eel traps along the Tyrendarra lava flow in the Mount Eccles/Lake Condah area may well be of “outstanding heritage value”, but it does not constitute a civilisation. Whatever you or Rainier may think of Western civilisation, there was no civilisation in Australia prior to 1788. Culture yes, civilisation no.

The Free Online Dictionary defines civilisation as: "An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions".

A short-list definition of civilisation (Clyde Kluckhohn, cited in Whitehouse and Wilkins; see http://bruceowen.com/emciv/341-06f-06-CityStateCiv.pdf) notes that civilised societies possess at least TWO of the following three characteristics:
- towns of over 5000 people
- writing
- monumental ceremonial centres.

As far as has been established, none of these characteristics was applicable to Western Victoria prior to European arrival/invasion/settlement, whatever you want to call it. But these characteristics/criteria were applicable to a greater or lesser degree at pre-Hispanic sites such as Chan Chan, Chavin, Chichen Itza, Copan, Machu Picchu, Mayapan, Palenque, Teotihuacán, Tenochtitlan, Tikal and Uxmal, to name just a few.

As for quoting Bruce Pascoe - "learn that you live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour" - apart from the fact that there was NO civilisation there anyway, where exactly is the contemporary relevance? Do we now all move to Western Victoria and become eel farmers? Come off it.
Posted by Snappy Tom, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 6:19:13 PM
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Yep, there is a great deal we can learn from the past. Good on you Bruce for presenting some evidence to debunk the notion that Aboriginal people are somehow less worthy than non-Aboriginal folk in a historical sense. A lot of people are concerned about climate issues and the number of species of animals and plants that are becoming extinct everyday. The cause of this problem is directly linked to the domination, greed & exploitation ethic of centralised states with monotheistic religions that have historically disconnected people from nature. Whilst this is going on there is a whole different way of interacting with otherness (spiritual & social) that still remains largely intact despite several decades of Aboriginal people being forcibly relegated to welfare dependency and a century and a half of overt genocide before that. As Bruce says these Aboriginal people have much to offer to assist us to make the transition to a more socially just and sustainable future. No wonder Aboriginal people have disengaged and would prefer to live on $30 a fortnight than engage in a stupid system that has been imposed on them without their consent given our attitudes. We non-Aboriginal people are the stupid ones destroying our planet living what is in a relative sense a half life that is devoid of integrity and meaning. If some of you folk denigrating Aboriginal people or expressing your lack of compassion could have seen some of the things that I have seen you would hopefully realise how culpable you are for what is going on and you would be ashamed. Many in various levels of government and/or on the ground working on remote communities are disenfranchising and disempowering Aboriginal people perpetuating and creating assimilation based welfare oriented policies that are nothing short of covert cultural genocide. Whilst Aboriginal people are prematurely dying on the ground as a direct result of most non-Aboriginal people in this country doing little to address underlying issues dry academic arguments between ignorant unfeeling people trying to bolster their self importance seems somewhat irrelevant and sickening.
Posted by Bret Fishley, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 7:48:38 PM
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