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The Forum > Article Comments > Serial liars: how lawyers get the money > Comments

Serial liars: how lawyers get the money : Comments

By Evan Whitton, published 17/5/2007

The system will only change when non-lawyers understand how and why our legal adversary system is not interested in truth.

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Evan, I think that I, as someone who’s been through the system on both sides as defendant (physical assault a number of times – no justice for me there) and as the prosecuted (trespass in protest against nuclear weapons – convicted jailed), I venture to say that you are examining and articulating what a lot of people, especially crime victims, would agree with wholeheartedly.

Spendocrat you don’t know me at all – your assumptions elswhere are baseless (like Daniel06’s) and reek of arrogance (and we all know arrogance is next to racism).

I particularly relate to p.103-104 which is a reasonable account of the adversarial way compared to the investigative means. The defence lawyers do their utmost to avoid the truth being presented openly and honestly. I can relate so much to the way these lawyers, whose ethics have no moral basis, can distort the truth of the circumstances behind an event.

There are many other reasons for change. For instance: one to mind, is the disparity between the justice delivered to say an unemployed person with no resources and say a small business owner whose worked hard all his life to put something together. In our current system both are delivered the same penalty (supposedly) and yet the unemployed person may end up in jail because she can’t afford a lawyer or for not paying his fine; whereas the small business person may lose her reputation and living – for instance a tow truck operator convicted of physical assault loses their license as well. Conversely what of the victims if the perpetrators excused.

The irony of being jailed for taking action against authorities’ unjust laws, such as the use and indiscriminate violence of nuclear weapons; and then being treated like scum because you challenge the rights of a bully to harm you (it’s long story) suggest that something’s wrong. Maybe, culture directs lawmakers?

Although, Evan has a very sensible look at the problems, I think, the problem of liars corrupting the investigative way – just as lying lawyers are corrupting the adversarial way - needs further research.
Posted by ronnie peters, Thursday, 17 May 2007 3:11:37 PM
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Dan...well done with that tfn issue. Recent high court case(feb) argued that and decision with reason not made public as yet...seems they are waiting for that law to be passed, get crown ascent, and bind the crown...

yep, crown is the basic problem...they have monopoly of the justice system here and england and commonwealth. There is a increasing force to set up a 'public court/commission' to monitor crown activities...not sure where that is now at...

Its not law the problems at...in fact law is now almost a science at extracting the truth with all its rules and regulations and statue...eg...'cross on evidence' (legal bible on evidence)2nd paragraph...r v hardy(1794)...'the presumption is, that no man/woman would declare any thing against himself, unless it were true; but that every man/woman, if he/she was in difficulty, or in the view to any difficulty, would make declaration for him/herself'...

need any more be said...lawyers to judges know/expect people lie/distort in courts...and the current system evolved to deal with this to extract the truth...problem is there seems to be a vested interest in the outcome eg corporations v common people; women v fathers; crown v public...etc that 'perverts' the result...ie failure to result in a 'just and equitable' answer...

and yes...its becoming common public knowledge...antenna's are up, which means worst is over and now on the mend...but keep the eye on the ball people...

Sam
Ps~how bad is the lawyer cartel...personal experience...about 15 law firms asked but would not stand up in family court and say 'force separating a good fatherchild relationship is wrong'(family court common practice in about 96% of cases...then shared parenting bill was passed which did just that...
Posted by Sam said, Thursday, 17 May 2007 6:13:04 PM
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Sam states, (Recent high court case(feb) argued that and decision with reason not made public as yet...seems they are waiting for that law to be passed, get crown ascent, and bind the crown...)

It is interesting that you are aware of that case as I have copy of the decision that allegedly went before the High Court on the 13 Feb as there was a constitutional matter discussed in the "place" by the persons who are appointed as judges but sitting as individuals not bound by their oath of office, was discussed and these discussions did take place where the High Court normally sits to determines the disputes brought before it but this case like many others was not dealt with by the properly constituted High Court of Australia. The Solicitor from Sydney was not aware until two weeks after that the originating process was not properly sealed with the SEAL of the High Court of Australia in accordance with the rules 4.06.1, 2, 3, 4. The Barrister from Brisbane was fully aware of the scam and attempted to have the client from Sydney sign an indemnity only hours before the alleged hearing and then suggested that they should withdraw.
These grubby corrupt vile individuals believe that the peasant class aren't educated enough to smell a scam but many have been looking very closely at these grubs in Canberra and Qld over the past twelve months and now some of the politicians and ministers are also aware of the judicial scam and one suffered a serious bout of depression as a result and resigned as the first law officer. I do not have to mention any names and you should also check the Courier Mail of the 12 July 2006 as it reported the resignation of the Registrar of Sup-Crt and five others from the Central Registry in Brisbane. If one was to read very carefully the other alleged High Court cases of Kable v DPP NSW, Forge V ASIC and Grollo v Palmer you may understand what they are doing and why.
Posted by Young Dan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:39:28 PM
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Denial, not dealing with Listening and Problem-Solving is a form of "serial" lying.

We are loosing the 'fair-go' Australia motto through a cultural practice of denial.

Australians need that wonderful Aussie voice to 'speak-up' about what has to happen to balance the politics of eveyday life, for their families, communities and nation.

We need to understand advocacy, difference and further our understanding and... we need to be more respectful of this fact.

Individuals make up government departments. It is where the change inside has to occurr.

If we demand this then I don;t have to believe "The system will change when non-lawyers understand how and why the adversary system is not interested in truth, and express their outrage to lawyers in legislatures".

Non-lawyers learning is the point. Lawyers get to deal with the legal language and process but it is us who needs to encourage ourselves and our friends to stand up for the things we value in common day Law. This is all our work and needs to be taken more seriously by ALL of US.

Everything is changing so fast.

http://www.miacat.com/
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Posted by miacat, Friday, 18 May 2007 7:38:56 AM
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I cannot fault Evans findings at all.
Once upon a time I believed that my own experiences of the english legal system were unique to myself.
As a small works builder I was the victim of a bad debtor/fraudster who, come litigation, got the benefit of £32,000 of legal aid to evade a debt of just £6,173, on one pack of lies,and then, 5 years later, a favourable judgement on the contract only, on a different and conflicting pack of lies.
This, despite the fact that, in my summing up as a Litigant in Person,
I stressed this conflict of evidence to the judge.
I later complained to the Council for the bar that, in law, aware of his clients untruths, the barrister should have stood himself down from the proceedings.
The barrister, John Walford, in a signed letter, responded to the bar council by acknowledging that there had been two different accounts from his client but, contrary to my assertions, this did not neccessarily mean that his client, Dennis Bottomley, was lying.
John Walford claimed that Bottomley gave him an explanation for the conflicts of evidence, which , at that time he accepted, but could no longer remember!
Around this time, John Walford was made a judge. Even as a judge he has been criticised by the national press in england for letting a convicted paedophile walk free.
A detailed website of my experiences can be found at http://colinpetersbd40jh.tripod.com
I now know that what I have experienced is far from unique, but par for the course, and there are thousands of us who are victims of the system.
We have got to get together and make our voices heard.
Should Evan Whitton wish to contact me, I would be more than happy to work with him.
Posted by Colin Peters, Friday, 18 May 2007 10:40:44 AM
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I hate to sound pessimistic on this, but aren't we kidding ourselves that it is going to change any time soon?

It stands alongside lying politicians, corrupt local councils and Macquarie Bank as one of the entrenched evils in our lives, and will take a (literal) revolution to shift.

Because it is all about power. Once you have ceded power, it is a devil of a job to get it back.

We have sat back and watched our politicians become ever more blatant in their contempt of the citizenry. Promises are made and broken, information that should be ours by right is hidden behind laws that are supposed to make them available, and ethics and honesty are long-forgotten attributes of our elected representatives.

Corruption, particularly on land and development issues, is rife in your local council, but they seem to exist beyond the law. As with any protest against government activities, you will find them using your money to defend themselves, making any challenge ridiculously expensive to you, and ultimately raising the cost of living for your neighbours when their costs are passed on to the public.

Our supine acceptance of rampant and unchecked capitalism has turned once-public assets into money-making machines that deliver $33m salaries to executives who know how to rort the system. Anyone who uses Sydney Airport knows how good these people are at digging deeper into our pockets to feather their gigabuck nests.

The fox is in charge of the hencoop, I'm afraid.

And anyone who thinks lawyers are going to give up their power over our wallets is, frankly, dreaming.

How long did it take to get Einfeld to court?

And how much would you wager that he gets through with a light rap on the knuckles from one of his judge mates?
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 18 May 2007 11:08:03 AM
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