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The Forum > Article Comments > Putting students last by rejecting performance pay > Comments

Putting students last by rejecting performance pay : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 18/4/2007

Without a second thought, the states and territories rejected outright a pay-for-performance scheme for teachers. Shame.

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Netab

You tell me "the report exists" whether I "like it or not". This is the report you couldn't name, didn't know who wrote, hadn't read and didn't know anything about? Now I supply you all the details and even told you where you could read it, you come back - not having read the report - to tell me I had a "slightly shrill reaction".

You remind me of the knight in the Monty Python film who wants to fight on even though all his limbs have been hacked off.

You're way out of your depth, Netab. If you're going to engage in a debate about literacy standards and quote a major research report to support your views, have the common sense to read the report.

My reaction, you say, indicates that "where there is smoke, there is fire!" Yes, but for heaven's sake, what's burning? The unseen, unread research report?

You say again that your limited experience (nine years in remote WA) stands. Whatever can you mean by that? It's clear that your experience is totally inadequate to allow you to judge the literacy standards of Australian principals and teachers.

Do some reading and thinking then come back with something useful to say.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 28 April 2007 6:05:10 PM
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Liz, I'm not sure we disagree enough to warrant much further discussion. I obviously don't have much respect for education faculties, and I could say why, but it's enough off the point to leave it here. I'll just say I'm not underplaying the point of "sociology", but i think what you are referring to is covered much more by empathy and common sense than academic theorising.

I don't know how other professionals are performing in the workplace, but I know that professionals who need mathematics in the workplace are not in any way well-served by their university/school mathematical training. I think the difference is likely that most professions simply accept that mathematical education is pretty useless, and take it upon themselves to teach/demand whatever is needed. By comparison, with the profession of teaching mathematics, there is a broadly accepted culture of mediocrity.
Posted by bushbasher, Saturday, 28 April 2007 6:50:36 PM
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Oh FrankGol,
We have certainly touched a nerve. You tell me on one hand that this report is too obscure to source and on the other that it is discredited.

You exemplify, the defensive attitude of the educational establishment; we are professionals (therefore can't be questioned)but we have one of the most militant unions in the country. Your ridiculous and pompeous statement that I am 'out of depth' is an attitude that has inspired many of the above posts (you noticed them Frank?) that have obviously wounded you - don't like critical comment Frank? See Frank, this is not a conference and I'm not giving a paper. Where you get the idea that I'm here to waste my time answering the queries of a pedantic little man who has decided on the basis of his own limited experience, that the broader community perspective is ignorant; is beyond my comprehnsion. Take a rain check Frank!

I know that reality takes a while to seep in but I repeat; the research exists, my personal experience stands, my opinions stand. Now Frank, I will continue my interest in this forum and continue to annoy you. Thats life Frank; times change and its time to remind you that you are service deliverer; we the public decide what you will deliver.
Posted by Netab, Saturday, 28 April 2007 8:13:01 PM
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Oh Netab

You're incomprehensible. Far from telling you that the report was "too obscure to source", I told you where to get it - and suggested you read it. Nor did I say the report was "discredited", merely that it was not universally supported. Why don't you read it and see what you make of it for yourself?

Now how is it that I exemplify "the defensive attitude of the educational establishment" when I'm not part of it?

Why do you think its time to remind me that I am a "service deliverer"? What service is that? I am not a teacher nor a principal nor an educational administrator nor an educational lecturer. Wrong again Netab.

Your promise to annoy me would really matter to me if you had some facts or some coherent argument that challenged my thinking.

Meanwhile, as a member of the public (just like you) I'll go to sleep thinking about your proposition that "we the public decide what you will deliver". Perhaps you've mistaken me for the milkman or the newspaper man?

Why don't you come back when you've read the report?
Posted by FrankGol, Sunday, 29 April 2007 2:07:26 AM
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Frank, I have to take some responsibility for introducing the principal thing in this thread. A comment you quoted from Netab was actually a response he gave to one of my comments.

This thread is about teacher pay and linking it to the competence of teachers teaching our supposedly failing students. This we are to believe is going to 'improve' students' educational outcomes.

As a parent I have dealt with many teachers and quite a number of principals. All I can offer is my personal experience dealing with both teachers and principals, as did Netab. He in WA, I'm in South East Queensland.

I have yet to meet a teacher who is not interested in good educational outcomes for the students in their care.

I'm sorry to say I'm not that impressed with principals. Maybe all that is needed is some attention to eloquence, whether writing a report or communicating with a parent. Let's leave literate vs literacy aside for a minute. A coherent and relevant response that at least appears as if the principal cares about a student is a start.
Posted by yvonne, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 3:13:28 PM
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Netab,

I accidentally came to this thread and noticed your exchanges with FrankGol.

Here's my only comment on this thread :

FrankGol is right, you're way out of your depth !!
Posted by GZ Tan, Saturday, 12 May 2007 11:24:00 PM
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