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The Forum > Article Comments > Israel's 'right to exist'? > Comments

Israel's 'right to exist'? : Comments

By Saree Makdisi, published 19/3/2007

The 'LA Times' (and other media) consistently adopts Israel's language, giving credence to an inaccurate, simplistic and dangerous cliché.

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Thats a good point actually.
Its difficult to ask Palestinians to recognise Israel's existence if Israelis can't agree this existence is withing which borders.

A simple solution is for Israelis to come up with versions of Israeli borders. For example: israel 0: 1948 borders, Israel 1: 1967 border, Israel 2: today's borders. Then at least we would know which Palestinian groups recognise which version.

This way all Palestinian will agree on Israel's right to exist regardless of which version.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 19 March 2007 8:52:03 AM
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This article is semantic nonsense. What Israel is asking for is its right to exist without a neighbour plotting its destruction at every turn. Hamas leaders are well capable of uttering such a statement and this would open the door to a more productive and peaceful relationship between Palestinians and the Israelis, and hasten the establishment of viable Palestinian state and negotiation over areas such as the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The latter may take years to eventuate, but can't commence until one side disavows its intent to wipe out Israel.
Posted by TomasRignoli, Monday, 19 March 2007 9:27:17 AM
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Any suggestion to "wipe out Israel" so to speak, should be met with the most aggressive resistance humanly possible full stop (i.e end of discussion)!
Posted by vivy, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:06:11 AM
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Good point. The language shapes thought, and hence the debate.

It appears the previous 2 posters never read the article. Palestinian militias, no internal structure, riven by internal dispute, pose no threat to Israel. Rail against 'suggestions' as much as you like - in fact, you can read about it in any mainstream media outlet - but the point of the article remains.
Posted by bennie, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:17:24 AM
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What a breath of fresh air this article is ! and as always it seems that the truth hurts.
Posted by kang, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:24:30 AM
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Imagine there's no countries...I wonder if you can..
Posted by spendocrat, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:38:12 AM
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They're quick and sensitive arn't they Bennie?
The article I thought was a criticism of the press? Where did these guys come from? PR people I would say spraying more spin.
It is only in recent years I have become anti Israel, not because I don't believe it has a right to exist but because of the bigot press who choose to ignor Israel's prolifacy in spin and defiance of the UN resolutions. Last time I counted, 20 odd resolutions completely ignored. Any other state doing so would have been condemned roundly, maybe even invaded by that facist state, the USA and its colloborators
Australia and England.
fluff4
Posted by fluff4, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:41:34 AM
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vivy and tomasrignoli... I can't help but feel you've expressed the kind of simplistic reinforcement that the article is railing against.

Can I ask you both.. should Israel in turn be required to acknowledge Palestine's 'right to exist' (regardless of who should do it first).

Secondly - should Israel be required to define a concrete border? any suggestions on where this line should be drawn?

Answering these questions is much more constructive than reflexively taking a position and rubbishing the other side...
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:42:13 AM
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SOME PEOPLE SAY "YES" AND SOME PEOPLE SAY "NO".
HOWEVER, THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL HAVE NOT HAD AN EASY TIME OF IT BUT THIS COULD VERY WELL BE THEIR OWN FAULT.
THE BALFOUR DECLARATION WORDING CLEARLY SHOWS THAT IT HAD BEEN AGREED BY ALL PARTIES CONCERNED, THAT, ISRAELI CITIZENS HAD TO SHARE THEIR PATCH WITH OTHER RACES, RESIDENT THERE AT THE TIME. THIS, HOWEVER, WAS NOT ADHERED TO, AS THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL HAVE CLEARLY SHOWN SINCE ESPECIALLY, AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
WHY DO THEY MAKE LIFE SO DIFFICULT FOR THEMSELVES? AND WHY DO THEY HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES' FORCES FIGHT THEIR WARS FOR THEM? WELL, MOST OF THEM ANYWAY.
ALSO, THE WELL TO DO CITIZENS HAVE TRIED FOR YEARS, TO GET OTHER WELL TO DO CITIZENS TO GO AN LIVE IN ISRAEL BUT NO WAY IN THE WORLD WILL THEY LEAVE THEIR WARM, CHIC, EXPENSIVE, "KOUSHEE" APARTMENTS ON 5TH AVENUE TO GO AND LIVE IN THE DUST BOWL THAT IS ISRAEL...............
I BELIEVE, IT IS MOSTLY THE NOT SO WELL OFF CITIZENS WENT AND STILL GO THERE TO LIVE BUT NEW RESIDENTS, SUCH AS THE RUSSIANS AND BLACK JEWS FROM AFRICA ARE BEING TREATED VERY BADLY AND BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. WHY IS THAT WHEN THESE PEOPLE ARE OF THE SAME FAITH?
ALSO, IT HAS RECENTLY COME TO MY NOTICE THAT EVEN THE SUCCESSFUL "KIBUTSES" (I DON'T KNOW CORRECT SPELLING) ARE FALLING APART AND LIVING ON BORROWED TIME BECAUSE YOUNGER GENERATIONS ARE NOT INTERESTED ANYMORE IN WHAT THESE PLACES ACCOMPLISHED. THE ROT HAS SET IN THERE AS WELL AS IN OUR WESTERN SOCIETIES.
WHAT IS A VOTER TO DO?
ADVANCE AUSTRALIA WHERE..............................................
Posted by VANKLEEF, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:56:50 AM
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irgun killed to take other people's land, hamas kills to reclaim it.

a peaceful solution is preferable, but as long as hamas is given the choice of submission to bandits, or resistance, many people sympathize with resistance.

since the occupation of palestine has long since demonstrated the corrupt and brutal nature of israeli society, and since the american hegemony appears to be waning in power, israelis may begin to fear for the results of indefinite violent struggle without a moral basis for international support. i hope this leads to a 'south african' solution before too long. unfortunately, there is no mandela visible on the moslem side, and the unrestricted immigration of european jews has created great pressure for land. it is difficult to see any room for sanity breaking out
Posted by DEMOS, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:45:43 AM
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DEMOS
It is the corruption of Eastern European nation states that has caused Jews to migrate to Israel, in the first place! Are Eastern European nations the only corrupt anti-Semitic forces operating around the globe?
Posted by vivy, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:55:39 AM
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Sorry, it is hard to comprehend whether an original article from LATimes or some sentences with comments published in the Forum.

In any case, such a tautology as “It is literally meaningless for a non-state to "recognise" a state” brings good to no-one because self-ruled Palestinian Authority has own president, parliament and embassies round a globe.

To finalize state-building a clear political definition is required because there never ever was any political Arab entity in Palestine, and so far Israel is only a state existing there.

And every different Arabs of Palestine ruler starts own term with bargains of more financial Western handovers by denouncing and then pronouncing Israel’s right to exist in Palestine.

Enough is enough.

A puppy-in-advance state of the Arabs of Palestine's "right to exist" is of a very question recently as terrorism spread worldwide rather than instantly threatening democratic non-Muslim world -Israel is a frontier of- with islamist nonsence.
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 19 March 2007 12:01:30 PM
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The author begins by questioning the language of media but soon asks questions relating to how such questions ought to be structured, while his questions are structured to support the Palestinian view.

“... recognise the state of Palestine. ... (and for some reason, there are no high-minded newspaper editorials demanding that it do so).”

That might be because Palestine is not a State and has refused to establish itself as such. Hence the Palestinian Authority and Palestinian Territories.

“For that matter, why should the Palestinians recognise an Israel that refuses to accept international law, submit to UN resolutions ...”

Do Israeli's get asked the same questions about Palestinians?

“If none of these questions are easy to answer, why are such demands being made of the Palestinians? And why is nothing demanded of Israel in turn?”

The author is either neglecting his responsibility to the facts or is being woefully ignorant to push a pro Palestinian victim agenda. Much is asked from Israel. Often that they be first to come to the peace table, but mostly to leave a hole in their security.

“Endlessly repeating the mantra that the Palestinians don't recognise Israel helps paint Israel as an innocent victim, politely asking to be recognised but being rebuffed by its cruel enemies.”

It isn't the mantra that Palestinians don't recognize Israel. It's that they have written of erasing Israel from the face of the earth in their “constitution”.

Speaking to “Palestinian” legitimacy I can not find a historical reference to any people known as Palestinian. No Palestinian people, no Palestinian tribes.

History shows Palestine as being Judah or Judea as being part of the lands of the Jewish Kingdoms and the land Israel.

The author is correct on one point. The Palestinians are victims but, I don't think it is so much at the hands of the Israeli's, rather at the hands of their brother Arabs as a tool to frustrate the existence of the State of Israel and a Jewish homeland in a land the Arabs once conquered and took for themselves at the expense of Jewish autonomy.
Posted by aqvarivs, Monday, 19 March 2007 12:33:16 PM
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Sure Israel has a right to exist, but not with a brace of nuclear-tipped rockets ready to go.

It not only proves that Israel is being protected by the US, but also by a UN that is simply a mind-piece of the US.

How the UN or US can ever expect the Palestine Arabs ever to recognise Israel with not only its atomic rockets but with the latest in American made strike fighter bombers right next door, is beyond the pale.

Give the Israelies their due, they have proven mentally that they can match or better any other nation in intellect, so why have they not got the simple commonsense that their present ultra-modern armoury, considering the global existence they are now in, will not only get they themselves nowhere, but any real future for any genuine Middle East peace.
Posted by bushbred, Monday, 19 March 2007 12:43:33 PM
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A well written article.

It should also be pointed out that the "Balfour Declaration" only sought to provide the Zionists with a "National Home", not a "State" and also "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

If Israel was controlled by any other group but Zionists, the United States would br clamouring for sanctions to be imposed until they adhered to the U.N. resolutions
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 19 March 2007 2:19:45 PM
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So, in a nutshell the author says the notion of the "right to exist" is an Orwellian attempt to legitimise what has happened to the Palestineans.

After all, what other nation has to demand that others recognise it's right to exist?

Well let's see, could it instead be because Israel's neighbours have tried for over half a century to destroy it and slaughter its citizens or drive them into the Mediterranean? Is that not a far more obvious explanation?

If the latter explanation is obvious, the other one, I think, requires a mind that is predisposed to see Jews as devious and malevolent.
Posted by grn, Monday, 19 March 2007 3:12:12 PM
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I guess most people on this post were happy to see Mr Arafat get the noble 'peace' prize a few years back. Most people also take it for granted that they have a right to exist. I take it also that most would be happy for the US not to back Israel. Well one day you will probably get your wish. We are bound to get some brainwashed secular US President who will happily allow Israel to be destroyed. The only problem is guys you have not read or understood the end of the book!
Posted by runner, Monday, 19 March 2007 3:28:39 PM
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Whilst I tend to agree with the author's premise viza viz the Israeli "language" too common in the USA and among the religious right, I find it hard to sympathise with the way the Palestinians promote their cause - corruption, nepotism, terrorism and hatred will NEVER get them anywhere with the west.

I see the problem as fundamentally one of HISTORY - and generations, indeed a millenium and more of hatred, un-forgiveness and blinkered views of history on both the Palestinian side and the Israeli.

Somehwere TWO parties have to forgive all that is past and start again - GET OVER IT and GET ON WITH LIFE. Palestine has a right to exist - it's peopel have a right to a homeland, and so does Israel.

The Palestinians are caught up in the distorted view of hsitory and hatred fed them, and the Jews are still yet to forgive the Nazis, despite Germany's repentance, contriteness and generosity toward Israel over the past five decades, even more so in recent times.

It has been a very clear observation of mine, in counselling, in ministry and in my own life, and Jewish upbringing , that when we harbour anger, hatred and resentment against ANYONE, a deep root of BITTERNESS grows within us and defiles all those around us - whether we are Jew, Gentile, Palestinian, Australian or whatever !

Simply put, we end up becoming just like the ones we hate, whether it be parents, neighbours, Nazis or the Japanese.

FORGIVENESS is what Christ preached - sadly Palestine is not willing to forgive, nor is Israel - after all tyat is why they crucified Christ as a False Messiah - they simply were UNWILLING to listen to His simple message of FORGIVENSS and RECONCILIATION.

Is it possible for peace between the two? - YES. Is it likely? - NO !
Though I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem frequently - the PEACE of JERUSALEM, ie all parties - not just the Jews, whom I once counted myself as.
Posted by Flezzey, Monday, 19 March 2007 3:53:19 PM
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"The only problem is guys you have not read or understood the end of the book!"

I understood it.

'They were no longer little girls, they were little women.'

They'd grown up, yeah?
Posted by spendocrat, Monday, 19 March 2007 3:58:52 PM
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Does Australia have a right to exist? why?
Since when does anyone needs permission to exist?

Until 1948, the Jews in now-Israel called themselves "Palestinians": did anyone object, claiming that they falsely misused their proprietary name? NO - because there was no such identifiable nation at the time. "Palestinian" simply meant someone who lived in that area under British mandate.

The idea of a "Palestinian" nation as separate from other Arabs was invented around 1970 as a propaganda tactic and even then it took a while to catch and teach the Arabs of the occupied territories (and later some of the Israeli Arabs) that they were "Palestinian".

Should Israel one day be wiped off the map, as many Arabs hope, those "Palestinians", their mission accomplished, will also cease to exist and merge into the greater Arab ocean.

In a recent survey, an overwhelming majority of Arab Israelis, while identified with their Arab brothers, stated that they are AFRAID of having their towns and villages become, under territorial exchange, part of Palestine. They unequivocally prefer to continue living in Israel and not under Palestinian rule.

NEVERTHELESS, these are people, and if they now, for whatever reason - however silly or devious, truly want to define themselves as a nation and have their own independent country, they need no excuse. They now exist.

The state of Israel, its government and the majority of its people do not want Palestine and its people to be annihilated and cease to exist - the same cannot be said about the Palestinians towards Israel.

Fellow_Human, I liked your remark:
"Its difficult to ask Palestinians to recognise Israel's existence if Israelis can't agree this existence is withing which borders."

Indeed mission-impossible to get all Israelis to agree on borders - it will NEVER happen (same for Palestinians, oh well), but what stops Palestinians from accepting Israel in its 1949-1967 borders that were already agreed upon with all the Arab nations of the time?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 19 March 2007 6:05:24 PM
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I'm SO sick of hearing about the "plight of the Palestinians". It's time we focussed on the butchery, rape and dispossession that Arabs are perpetrating on Africans in Darfur and Southern Sudan. My, my, haven't the "victimised" Arabs turned into cruel, persecuting monsters themselves? Truth hurts, doesn't it?
Posted by Kvasir, Monday, 19 March 2007 6:10:38 PM
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RIGHT TO EXIST depends one one or both of 2 things.

1/ POWER.
2/ DIVINE MANDATE.

Actually.. the heading should not so much be about 'right' to exist, because that can only ever apply to ONE thing..and that is divine mandate.
Please prove me wrong here anyone.. I totally welcome it. I'm not neccessarily speaking about the Israel/Palestine situation, but this concept certainly applies to it probably more than any other.

AUSTALIA exists for one and only one reason- POWER.

-We came.
-We saw.
-We liked.
-We took. (though in some cases, we actually traded/bought parts)

So, clearly Australia is founded on the concept of brute force and superior technology but certainly not any particular high moral ground.
Some may wish to speak of manifest destiny etc.. but this is simply an observation, not a justification.

ISRAEL is different. It was established specifically by divine mandate in the beginning. This may be disputed by secular Jews and atheists and most honest Arabs agree 'at first' it was given to the Jews.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 19 March 2007 7:31:42 PM
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DIVINE_MANDATE_CURRENT_NOW?

A difficult theological question. If we believe the promises made to Abraham
Gen 13:14-17 "To you and your descendants I will give this land forever"
...its 4ever.

Israel was also promised that if they sinned, and strayed, God would EXILE them and take away the promised land. This occurred on 2 occasions.
1) The exile and dispersion of the Northern Kingdom "Israel" (10 tribes)from which there was no return.

2) The exile of Judah to Babylon, and their subsequent restoration under Cyrus the Great. (See Nehemiah and Ezra for details)

Daniel also prophesies about this exile but ADDs a most important prediction.. about the coming of the Messiah. for the Historically and prophetically inclined, I recommend a study of Daniel 9:24-26

Daniels says that 483 years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem,

-Finish transgression.
-Put an end to Sin.
-Atone for Wickedness,
-Seal up vision and Prophecy
-Anoint the most holy.

It so happens that from the decree of Artaxerxes in 444 BC to the entry of Christ Jesus into Jerusalem in AD 33 444+33=477
Using the Jewish calender rather than ours, the result becomes 483 yrs.
This was the coming of Christ.

FOR CHRISTIANS.. we believe the Church is the new spiritual 'Israel'.
Thus, the need for the land, is in fact negated because Israel has fulfilled its purpose in the coming of the Messiah. Many Christian traditions believe God has a role for the Jewish nation today, which involves the land and the return of Christ.

FOR JEWS. as long as they reject Christ Jesus as the Messiah, they have the basis to believe the Abrahamic promises still apply i.e. "divine mandate".
Aside from this, there is only one remaining means of maintaining (but not justifying) their existence. power.
While they do have a very strong historical argument for continuous posession, others will pick different points in history as their reference. Hence the current dispute and violence.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 19 March 2007 7:41:34 PM
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BOAZ, don't give us all this religious BS. The Zionists are a bunch of terrorists who spawned terrorist organisations such as Irgun before the Arabs even thought of terrorism.

Recent archeology has disproved most of the biblical stories used as justification for the return of the Jews to Palestine.
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 19 March 2007 10:36:23 PM
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Yuyutsu,

Agree with your comment and funny you mentioned it since that was Sadat's vision which was rejected by both Palestinians and Israeli (ie mutual recognition 1967 borders). On another token, I am having a beach holiday in Sinai next week so I can stop worrying for a while.

Boaz,

Its as messy as trying to define and agree on 'secular' borders between Israelis and Palestinians. Bringing biblical borders into the mix will only encourage fundi Jewish and Muslims to throw their own religious borders. Secularism is good, lets stick to it and negotiate peacefully, Mr Armageddon!

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:59:03 PM
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The ancient Judahites and Israelites stole the land from its inhabitants, with much killing, cruelty, and enslavement.
After being overwhelmed by attackers, the Judahites regained their independence more than once, but finally were destroyed as a people in Palestine around 135 AD.
The country became part of the Christianised Roman Empire, remaining part of the Eastern Greek-speaking "Roman" Empire until Arab Muslimised marauders attacked and stole the country after 632 AD.
Historically, neither "Israel" nor "Arabs" have a right to Palestine.
Previous posters have made it clear that the Israeli Government has no intention of setting a LIMIT to the land they want. We can only guess that at the back of their mind is to seize as much as they can of ONE of the conflicting Biblical "promises" -- that is, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.
NOW you can GUESS why the fake Christian fundamentalists at the head of the U.S. pretended there were weapons of mass destruction around the Euphrates in IRAQ. Their real reason is to seize the oil -- and they are asking the Iraq Parliament to give the U.S. leases of 32 years. I hope the Iraq Parliament insists on refusing, and instead invites back the companies that were drilling for oil there 50 years ago, while retaining OWNERSHIP of the oil -- and distributing the profits to every Iraq family in the country, not grabbing it for the rich or the ruthless. Check www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/submit/subchron6.htm
Posted by johnmassam, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 12:28:15 AM
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I think this article misses the point. Israel can not recognise a Palestinian state that has terrorist organisations in government.

Hamas and Fatah are both terrorist organisations that call for the destruction of Israel. The many times that Israel has given the leaders (previously Yasser Arafat) the opportunity to create a Palestinian state have been met with opposition (Camp David, Oslo Accords).

Further, it is surprising that we in the West assume that Abbas or Khaled Mashal are rational. Just because they dress up in suits, join forces to form a "coalition" and sit down to a "cabinet" meeting does not mean that they are democratic, rational, willing to negotiate and want peace. They do it for the cameras!

Lets not use western terminology to define these people. They are what they are - terrorists!
Posted by chav, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 6:51:41 AM
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Vk3auu,

Please define "zionist" for us, because if zionists are terrorists, you will find that zionism has passed away decades ago and only a few Israelis remained zionists. The word "zionist" is still sometimes used in Israel, but its meaning has changed and now refers to generally being a good person and citizen, saving water, helping an elderly lady cross the road, etc.

The Irgun never targeted innocent civilians, as today's terrorists do.

No archeologist disputes the fact that Israelis lived in Israel thousands of years ago.

Boaz_David,

Every sentient being has a divine mandate to exist (including Australians).

Johnmassam,

The Israeli government is not interested in expansion. It was in fact elected on the promise of getting rid of most of Israel's occupied territories. Yes, there is a sad bunch of hot-headed Israelis who desire biblical borders and attempt to take the law into their hands in the matter, and Israel's government is unfortunately too weak to deal with them and punish them properly. Israel needs your help in its struggle to fight simultaneously both Jewish and Arab/Palestinian terrorists.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 8:21:12 AM
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READ END of the BOOK .....

I agree with spendocrat - GROW UP - and I would ADD...

"Read the WHOLE of the book"

You folks just do NOT get it - it is the human condition that is the heart of the matter - I REPEAT.....

"It has been a very clear observation of mine, in counselling, in ministry and in my own life, and Jewish upbringing , that when we harbour anger, hatred and resentment against ANYONE, a deep root of BITTERNESS grows within us and defiles all those around us - whether we are Jew, Gentile, Palestinian, Australian or whatever.

Simply put, we end up becoming just like the ones we hate, whether it be parents, neighbours, Nazis or the Japanese.

FORGIVENESS is what Christ preached - sadly Palestine is not willing to forgive, nor is Israel - after all that is why they crucified Christ as a False Messiah - they simply were UNWILLING to listen to His simple message of FORGIVENESS and RECONCILIATION."

SIMPLE but too easy for mankind - his PRIDE and DESIRE for REVENGE fuels his ego and hatred.

The one great lesson of History - mankind continually IGNORES the lessons of History.

What is needed is LOVE, FORGIVENESS, RECONCILIATION not more flawed ploitical/diplomatic compromises - sadly, too simple for most!

And, yes, I HAVE read the end of the book - Israel's postion is sad - all this bloodshed CAN be avoided, but it won't be.
Posted by Flezzey, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 8:45:21 AM
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Yutusu

If the Israeli Government is against the illegal settlements why did it authorise the setting up of a new settlement in the occupied territory as recently as the last Christmas period?

Why did the Israeli Government auction Palestinian land, for settlement soon after the debacle in Lebanon?

Why does the Israeli Government encourage and condone the expansion of the existing settlements using the word 'thickening' to describe the process?

No weasel words when you face and 'explain' these actions!

No mate the Israeli govenment is made up of and supports those sad individuals you mentioned.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 9:09:37 AM
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Flezzey writes 'And, yes, I HAVE read the end of the book - Israel's postion is sad - all this bloodshed CAN be avoided, but it won't be.' You are right to declare that what is needed is ' LOVE, FORGIVENESS, RECONCILIATION' but you concede 'all this bloodshed can be avoided but it won't. Why? Because both sides have rejected the Messiah but one would have to bury their heads in the sand to see that God has not finished with Israel. They have been cut off for a season from God (Read Romans 11). Throughout history they have sent themselves into captivity by ignoring God and their covenant with Him. One day they will know the Messiah! Everything written in the Scriptures have accurately described what would happen to Israel up to now so I don't see things changing now. God's Word has and will continue to come to pass. GROWING UP has very little to do with it. Maybe you need to reread Romans 11.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 11:53:20 AM
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The article is indeed a breath of fresh air. Especially for those of us who are sympathetic to the notion of an Israel, but deeply perturbed by human rights violations perpetrated by Israel.

It would do well for many to realise that Palestinian does not always mean Muslim. Christian Palestinians are having an as difficult time. The issue is being Palestinian. Israel simply does not want Palestinians to live within its borders. It purports to be democratic, but also Jewish, so it is important that the majority of its citizens are Jewish otherwise it would simply cease to be a Jewish state.

Fortunately there are more and more voices, Christian-like recently Jimmy Carter, and also Jewish, beginning to speak out and question about what is happening.

The scary thing is that although in the West we like to pride ourselves on 'free speech', that is still not acceptable on some subjects. Especially for Jewish people who want to speak out, or at least question how Israel is responding seems to be fraught with vehement condemnation.

History buffs might like to look up the borders of the different 'Israels' and also look at this wildly snaking concrete wall which does not follow any border that is being built supposedly for protection. Bethelem in Palestinian territory, for instance has been effectively isolated and consequently there are not even many Christian Palestinians left here.
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 1:36:19 PM
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Looks like George Dubya might be fed up trying to gain oil mileage in the Middle East, after saying that he wants America to depend on vegetative fuel like Brazil rather than fossilised fuel.

Reckon we might soon find out really who's the big chief when Cheney takes over. With all the big oil companies behind Cheney, we might soon see who's really running the show, with Iran quickly taken over helped by atomic little spitty-fire Israel.

We would then be overseen by people you would normally not even say gooday to - people who would soon reveal who the real global racketeers are and the only way to stop them, or maybe to bugger-up what's left of a naturally warming up world, is to invite in Russia and China and maybe Germany, France and India and even Pakistan, to an atomic nuclear fiesta
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 3:45:21 PM
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A Palestinian state was created, it exists. But the government of this state is ruled by a party which calls for the dismantling, even destruction of its neighbour. No nation in the world could negotiate with a group like that.

Dispute about borders often exists. India/Pakistan, UK/Spain over Gibraltar. That does not stop them negotiating with each other. Border disputes are a red herring in this argument.
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 6:16:51 PM
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Runner,

you mis-understand me, perhaps because of an Israel-centric view. It will be sad for Israel, and a lot of other people, BECAUSE the bloodshed prophesied in scripture COULD BE STOPPED, except for Israel's stubborness, and that of mankind IN GENRAL - it is our hardness of heart and sin nature that saw Christ crucified, and every other person slaughtered on the altar of war - read human pride, desire for revenge, etc etc.

Biblical prophesy does NOT have to happen - Adam & Eve did not have to sin - at every point, in every generation, and in each person's life, we have CHOICES. those choices determine our future - individually and jointly. Each of us CAN CHOOSE a different path.

Anyway, I was trying not to be religious, for the benefit of those who do not share the Christian Faith.

The PROBLEM is teh human condition - the ONLY WAY forward is Love, Forgiveness and Reconciliation on ALL sides - The Arab, The Muslim, The Jew, the Christian, the Atheist, the Agnostic (if such a one exists.

All of mankind has a Will, and peace requires ONLY THIS - that we align our HUMAN WILL toward Peace and Reconciliation. God's Will if you like.

IT IS WITHIN OUR ABILITY, individually and corporately. Until then further bloodshed is inevitable, and that is what I was referring to - the WHOLE WORLD - Jew and others are all going to pay a horrible cost otherwise, and taht is what scripture refers to - BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN THAT WAY, yet inevitably will.

Further, I do not see where ALL Israel will come to Christ - only those who EXERCISE their WILL-POWER to receive Him, like teh first time. I used to believe otherwise, but not now.
Posted by Flezzey, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 6:39:12 PM
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This is a good post and contributors need to be as careful with the language and in my view keep it contemporary. Any incoming government as with the Hamas electoral victory needs to accept a previous government's international agreements. Recognition of Israel 'may' have been something Abu Massan (Palestinian Authority president) has conceded. I am not sure of which Israeli borders were agreed to but by logic they should have been pre-1967. Conversely, the Palestinians are an occupied people and a fledgling state so if it is an argument of Hamas they should not be expected to agree to a Faustian choice of 'recognising Israel' without detail as to borders, statehood, joint recognition etc. I believe the new PA cabinet, while rejected by Olmert, (Israeli prime minister) should have a strong case with the European donors for acceptance with signs the US is waivering but could also pull Olmert in line. Problems elsewhere, notably Iraq/Iran could muddy the issue for the US but lets hope some EU fair-mindedness prevails and the Israeli/Palestinian blot on humanity takes one step forward for the sake of all of us who just wish it would stop hanging over us and all prospective OLO bloggers.
Posted by jup, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 7:47:35 PM
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“A fledgling state”-nice expression, exactly what it is, a puppet might exist on international handovers only as some other similar states in region and round a globe (look round Australia, no need farther).

Would this puppet be allowed to perpetually black mail his vital donors with both Israel-related and “faith-fullness worldwide” issues? Today, when Germany proclaims a policy of drifting the EU towards the USA as only one solution to balance new powers of China and India?
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 21 March 2007 5:20:58 PM
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Keith,

I know that Israel's government is inconsistent, but it was ELECTED on the basis of withdrawing from most occupied territories. This is what the citizens of Israel expected of it and it does not keep its election promises because it is weak and sways under the influence of violent settlers. Olmert's party was recently found to be seriously corrupt, so he may find himself in jail and will never be voted in again, which is the source of this weakness. I still believe that Olmert wants peace and no settlements, but his personal survival means more to him.

Yvonne,

Israel must indeed remain a Jewish AND democratic state, and for that (as well as for many other reasons) it must get rid of the occupied territories.

But while we are both enraged and upset at the continuing occupation (what remains of it, at least Gaza no more) and the humiliation of Palestinians, we must remember that they too are no angels, and Israel's security and indeed its very existence in the midst of a Moslem ocean, remain a non-trivial task. The snaking wall is not just "supposedly" for protection - it is, it is very effective and saves many lives of Israeli children every day. Israel cannot do without it, but of course, it should be (and will eventually move, God-willing) right on Israel's border rather than where it is now. I still believe that a bad wall is better for the time-being than no wall at all.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 22 March 2007 11:38:59 AM
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MichaelK, please. please, please get rid of your English language tutor and find someone who actually understands English sentence construction. Then we might be able to understand what it is that you are trying to say.
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 22 March 2007 12:41:29 PM
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You people are absolutely hilarious. Hamas doesn't refuse to recognise Israel on the basis of some nuanced argument about borders. It refuses because it wants to destroy Israel. From Wikipedia:

"Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[3][4][5] The charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."[6]"
Posted by grn, Thursday, 22 March 2007 3:24:36 PM
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Thank you for advice: "MichaelK, please. please, please get rid of your English language tutor and find someone who actually understands English sentence construction. Then we might be able to understand what it is that you are trying to say.
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 22 March 2007 12:41:29 PM "

Word for Windows Spell Checking does understand "my" Engish. As well as Arab-English is understandable by majority of contributors to this topic.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 22 March 2007 4:41:33 PM
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MichaelK. It isn't that your spelling is wrong. The grammer and the sentence construction just defies belief. Mostly it is just incomprehensible. Perhaps if I knew your native tongue, I could reconstruct your sentences into an order that I could comprehend, but so far, no dice.

I am trying to be helpful. You obviously have a contribution to make to these discussions. It is such a pity that what you have to say is ignored because of your poor sentence construction.
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 22 March 2007 5:42:10 PM
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What is “such a pity” “I have to say”, VK3AUU? I do say what I feel right to say here.

My posts target willing to communicate, and understanding is a mutual process. On these pages or in the Middle East surely.
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 23 March 2007 12:36:23 AM
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GRN... you and I can form a club .. its name ? 'REALITY CHECK' club..

You are pointing to the same thing I am... and I underline your point...

it is NOT about 'nuanced borders' it is about DESTRUCTION of Israel as far as HAMAS is concerned.

Not just 'destruction' but REPLACEMENT with an Islamic state.

which of course is based on the THEOLOGICAL issue of 'Islamic Waqf' or.."Muslim Lands" taken by conquest.
They took it by conquest, taxed the Christian arabs into Islamic submission ( The Jizya for the Jews of Khaibar was 50% of their gross income and they lost ALL their property rights) and now....when some Jews come along and with the unspoken words 'YES.. WE DO REMEMBER KHAIBAR' in their minds, the formerly conquering, now conquered Muslims whine !

Well, like most competitive things in life you have to take the wins and the losses.

There are 2 competing theological views of the land.. Orthodox Jew and Islamic. They are the extremes. They are always plotting to run the agenda.

GRN, getting these points through the likes of Keith and company is like getting blood out of a stone.. or perhaps into one.

But please keep mentioning them mate.. it might dawn on them one day.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 23 March 2007 7:16:12 AM
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David

You really should inform people of you 'final solution' ideas before inviting them to join your 'supremist' club.
Posted by keith, Friday, 23 March 2007 2:37:40 PM
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This main thesis is much better than some in the ME previously, but it is becoming obvious that religious points of view should be toned down especially as the Middle East political problem has become more one of power balance, much more in the realms of logic rather than religion.

The thought came to mind when one of contributors said that Iran should be banned because it followed Sharia Law, including stoning of women.

A stronger belief in secular laws, means that our United Nations should have its sights more on Israel which as well as an arsenal of nuclear rockets eternally pointed at Iran, also has a fleet of US supplied fighter bombers with strafer 50 calibres fitted in the wings.

Religion gives voice again with George Dubya terming Iran evil, though Iran even as Persia has not attacked a neighbouring country in the last one thousand years.

Not so with America, which along with Britain invaded and occupied Iran in the early 1950s breaking the new anti-colonial code, and planting in the pupper Shah. It was said to be on the pretext that Iran had gone Communist, with the usual American untruth so evident when BP and Texas Oil quickly arrived behind.

A few years later the Ayotollah arrived back in Iran, soon having the American Embassy staff arrested to hold them for almost a year.

Not satisfied, an angry US backed Saddam and his Iraqis when he attacked Iran in 1982, the war finally won by Iran, despite Donald Rumsfeld giving advice, including on the use of killer chemicals.

As our ME historians might say, not a very nice Middle East history so far, and it has got even worse with the illegal preeemptive attack on Iraq by America and her Anglophile allies Britain and Australia.

Finally, though most historians are more philosophical than religous, they might dare to wonder if there was a fair-minded God up there what side he would take - or maybe let Socrates have his say - with his Out with the Gods and in with the Good.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 23 March 2007 4:11:53 PM
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Dear Keith.. I think I've done enough posts for people to gain an inkling of my 'final solution' already, but for those who have not yet tweaked to it, I'll repeat it. (thanx for the invite)

BACKGROUND.
Prior to outlining yet again a possible 'final' solution, lets just re-cap. My last post b4 this one was underlining a point made by myself repeatedly and by GRN independantly but MOST of all, made by HAMAS itself. That they,(HAMAS) see only ONE future vision of Palestine and it does NOT include Israel. Isreal does not exist in their minds.

SOLUTION. (yet again)

The most rabid anti Israel sentiment exists in the large Palestinian refugee camps, and from these come most of the homicide bombers I understand. Also, Islamic Jihad and the militants have most of their support and or originate in them. They are those who feel they have "lost" more than other palestinians who have not actually been displaced by the establishment of Israel.

PARTIAL ETHNIC CLEANSING.

If the problem will not fix itself, it must be fixed by outside forces. Remove all Palestinians from the major refugee camps, resettle them in small numbers around the world or in more remote Arab countries with appropriate compensation, including assistance for a period of time which will enable them to gain a socio/cultural/economic foothold in their new homes in countries away from Israel.

It seems to me that this is the most compassionate solution out of a number of ugly choices. It will never solve the 'sentimental' aspect, the sense of connection with Jerusalem or the mosques but this must be broken by Geography and generations to avoid on-going (eternal?) competition for the same spiritual and geographical reference points that currently fuel the war.

In my original list of possibilities, I did include 'Remove all Israelis' as one option to solve the problem. But given their military and economic clout, and alliance with the USA this is most unlikely to ever happen. I have theological reasons why I prefer this not to happen anyway. (that is a disclosure of interest)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 8:17:55 AM
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"(HAMAS) see only ONE future vision of Palestine and it does NOT include Israel. Isreal does not exist in their minds"(by David) -

can one quarrel with?

Let's differentiate theoretical possibilities for a region called Palestine and reality of Israel already existing and the PA in final stage of formation.
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 24 March 2007 10:46:23 AM
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Boaz David wrote..

If the problem will not fix itself, it must be fixed by outside forces. Remove all Palestinians from the major refugee camps, resettle them in small numbers around the world or in more remote Arab countries with appropriate compensation, including assistance for a period of time which will enable them to gain a socio/cultural/economic foothold in their new homes in countries away from Israel.

Not that I am advocating this as a solution, but why not do to the Israelis what you are advocating for the Palestinians? After all, the Israelis have only started moving mack on numbers since around 1885, they are the intruders, not the other way around.

Since they already see thye world from a 'western' point of view resettling them would be a better solution than resettling all those Palestinians (with their Islamic religion that you hate so much), like dragons teeth, throughout the world. Forcible relation of Palestinians is asking for trouble.
Posted by Hamlet, Saturday, 24 March 2007 11:08:01 AM
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Necessity is the mother of all inventions. I am certain all human's are capable of adaptation, as proven by The Jews.
Posted by vivy, Saturday, 24 March 2007 11:20:00 AM
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Talk of removing Palestine Arabs is very elitist, similar to the doctrine of the CFR - Council of Foreign Relations, later taken up by the Trilateralists and Bilderbergers which incidently Tony Blair has supported. While Tony Blair is a member of the Trilateralists along with George W Bush and Henry Kissinger. It is also reported that John Howard has attended Bilderberg meetings.

It was an aging Cecil Rhodes who first devised the CFR which also grew to have Zionist connections. Such groups still support the extreme colonialist elitist view similar to the ancient Bibical doctrine of the Promised Land, not only taken on by the American Puritans, but also by British Zionists who taught that the Arabs are a low caste people better to be done away with. This point of view was virtually carried on in the Middle East during WW2, when Australian troops joked about both Arab women and men as riff raff, not much better than our Aboriginals.

It shows how much colonialism and non-Jewish Zionism has drifted Western peoples away from the compassionate and loving principles of the Sermon on the Mount spoken by the young Jesus after a lone sojourn in the desert.

It is so interesting that Socrates spoke about the same thing, think down deep in the quiet to find the true answers.

Still and all, such methods are so ancient that most modern people just call them Old Pap, only fit for the bin.

The point is are we really on the right track?
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 24 March 2007 3:49:06 PM
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No-one is "riff raff". Everyone has a human right to feel safe.
Posted by vivy, Saturday, 24 March 2007 6:02:15 PM
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Dear "observant" hamlet :) did you read the last paragraph of my last post ? Or just the first few lines ?

Hamlet... you call the Jews 'intruders' but that's a rather selective and western centric view of history. What right do we have to tell our neighbour "don't go and retrieve that stolen car of yours, even though you can see it 3 doors away outside the home of the bloke who stole it". The Jews have held ownership of that land until it was ruthlessly taken by the Romans. Then others came in... by invasion. Lets not push the 'intruders' line too hard, because its all relative to 'who' you are.

Brushy... for the same reason as I just poked a stick at Hamlet, I have to point a small 'bone' at you.. Notice my last paragraph please.

In terms of human solutions, the only workable one is to remove one side or the other. I've clearly stated my own preference, to keep the Jews and remove the most troublesome Palestinians.

More than likely they will all just muddle around and dabble here and there with 'human rightsy' type solutions (attempted) which really have as much chance of working as a snowflake in hell has of not melting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Balkan_War#Battle_of_Kilkis-Lahana

A casual glance at the various wars and peaces in the Balkans will quickly reveal how the 'peace' was based on elements which caused the next war.

And "no" I do not believe we have socially evolved beyond that same mental outlook.

My saying it will not cause it, BUT.. I'll say it for the record. The tug of Jerusalem to the Jewish religious heart is stronger than most of you appear to realize. I consider it much stronger than the Arab/Muslim connection to the Temple Mount due to the Mosque there.
I've grown to appreciate just how strong this is, based on many readings of the Old Testament, and immersing myself in the history.
If I can feel thus, how much more someone who's bloodline goes back to Abraham.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 6:10:04 PM
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David, while I disagree with the reasons for your approval of the Jewish return to "The promised land", I have to generally agree with your solution to the problem.

The matter of compensation for disposessed Palestinian Arabs poses some problems. From a legalistic point of view, the people who currently occupy the land and/or homes should be the ones paying the compensation as though they had bought the land. This ides might go down like a lead balloon, but it is worth considering. On the other hand, as the Israeli government seems to have encouraged the take over of Arab posessions, then the government should be paying the compensation.

The resettlement of the inmates of the refugee camps, as you say, should get rid of the source of suicide attacks, but you would probably still have to do something to placate Hamas. Perhaps if the whole of the area known as Palestine were to become one country with a bi-partisan government with both Jews and Arabs we might see some peace. Presently, the Israelis seem to control it all anyway, but the Arabs have little say and are treated as second class citizens. Something like that seemed to work before the second world war. The major disruption was caused by the rapid influx of European Jews after the creation of the state of Israel which resulted in the displacement of so many uncompensated Arabs.
Posted by VK3AUU, Saturday, 24 March 2007 8:33:32 PM
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Hamlet, it is better to erect a couple of nuke stations near place you live in rather than resettle dispersed so-called Palestinians: Jews used to institutional discrimination as Muslims are pushing their values too aggressively recently.
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 25 March 2007 12:35:04 AM
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Boaz, with all due respects, mate, the Israelis overdid their welcome back to their so-called homeland after their unspeakable agonies under the Nazi holocaust - by illegally
going militarily nuclear.

If the Middle East turns into an inferno caused by an attack on Iran, Israel will get the blame. Or rather America plus Israel will suffer the blame most for poorly thought out foreign policy back in the late 1970s.

The major problem Boaz, is though Israel has suffered so much - in military sentiment she has become almost as right-wing as the Nazis she suffered under.

Mubarek of Egypt was certainly spot on when he said that the main problem with the Middle East right now, is still Western intrusion and injustice.

Most political philosophers and social scientists agree with Mubarek, and until our public listens more to academics who rely on scientific reasoning rather than religous faith, our world will be in trouble.

To be sure St Thomas Aquinas was forthright when he agreed to the earthly heavenly mix eventually bringing on the Age of Reason. However, because we seem to be slipping back, it seems we have never really learnt from the Age of Enlightenment.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 25 March 2007 10:33:58 AM
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MichaelK,
-“as Muslims are pushing their values too aggressively recently”
Michael it is not a recent phenomena -it’s been going on for generations The only thing recent has been the west’s wake up to it -though some have still not cottoned-on.

BushBred:
-“The major problem Boaz, is… almost as right-wing as the Nazis she suffered under”
Did you get to the documentary re Hezbullah on SBS some weeks back?
There is nothing closer to Nuremburg 1938 than Hezbullah 2007
Media control, education control , no opposition - & a reward in the after life if you do as you’re told.Hitler & Stalin would have given their right arm for such.

-“Mubarek of Egypt was certainly spot on when he said that the main problem with the Middle East right now, is still Western intrusion and injustice“
The main problem in the middle east is the closed one -eyed nature of their societies.Everyone is to blame but themselves -and they never acknowledge their own on-going injustices.
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 25 March 2007 2:15:45 PM
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Horus,

9/11 is anyway not a sound alarm to too many native Westerners, surely.
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 25 March 2007 5:16:17 PM
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Horus, Israel would have done much better both for itself and the rest of the world if the Jews had all moved into the different areas of today's Western world.

One finds it hard to admit but the Israelies are possibly too intellectual to fit in with an islamic dominated Middle East__
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 25 March 2007 5:46:09 PM
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Bushbred,

Everyone knows this simple fact, especially Mubarek:
No nukes --> No Israel.

Israel's nuclear weapons are not for using them - they exist (if indeed they do) in order to never have to use them. Israel has proven over 40 years that it has no intention of using those nuclear weapons, and will indeed continue not to use them. There is nothing illegal about it either, since Israel never signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Israel should not get involved with Iran: Iran is a global threat rather than Israel's private business, but Israel had its nuclear weapons long before the current crisis - in fact while Israel and Iran were still best friends.

Living in the midst of 100-millions hostile Arabs/Moslems, having 10,000's missiles with chemical warheads pointing at Israel from Syria alone, Israel's nuclear weapons are there to stay, forever, rain or shine, in peace or in war. No peace-lover should be concerned about it.

Did you know that the person who fathered Israel's nuclear project is Shimon Peres - a constant peace activist and winner of the Nobel Peace prize? It is those weapons that can bring and sustain peace, it is only those weapons that may allow Israel to safely withdraw back to its own 1967 borders.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 25 March 2007 9:24:22 PM
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Surely the palestinians recognize the right of Israel to exist. It's just the country name and policies that they want to change.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Monday, 26 March 2007 7:45:45 AM
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bushbred, why shouldn't the Israelis have the right to have, maintain, or use nuclear weapons? And just how is their having them illegal? What are the laws against them specifically? Jews were major contributors to the science and production of atomic weapons. Isn't it theirs by right?
Or should just the commies have them?
No wait. India, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, etc. I suppose these nations are legal holders of nuclear weaponry.
Posted by aqvarivs, Monday, 26 March 2007 10:30:13 AM
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You critics still don't seem to cotton on to the lessons of power politics.

Such decisions should be made from organisations fashioned fom either legal or official lawmaking areas.

The very fact that there is such looseness, even allowing Mordecai to be punished by the Israelies, when all he was doing is what political scientists do praise him for, calculating what an arrogant little nation being allowed such weaponry could cause in the future.

Indeed, if Mr Bush was idiotic enough to give Israel the okay, we feel pretty sure that Israel would pontentially set Iran and its neighbours aflame even just with nuclear strikes on Tehran.

About time some of you guys got real and listened to people who get academic awards for handling such situations.
Posted by bushbred, Monday, 26 March 2007 11:05:58 AM
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Busbred,

To make things clear:
Israel must continue to have nuclear weapons,
but should never ever use them in first-strike.

I agree with you that the treatment of Mordechai was (and still is) shameful.

"Indeed, if Mr Bush was idiotic enough to give Israel the okay, we feel pretty sure that Israel would pontentially set Iran and its neighbours aflame even just with nuclear strikes on Tehran."

"Pretty sure that would potentially" doesn't say much, does it? I am also pretty sure that Australia too, if we had nuclear weapons, we would either use them or we wouldn't - that's for sure!

Mr. Bush has more than enough of these weapons himelf and some of them are getting old and corroded, so he could indeed use Iran for replacing them, but why should this belong in the discussion about Israel's right to exist?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 26 March 2007 2:26:45 PM
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Bushbred,
If Mordecai had been a Syrian, Iranian, or Egyptian :
1) You would never have got to hear his criticism-they would have put a lid on it very quick smart, &
2) He’d have been long dead by now.
( they shoot people in the street in the Palestinian territories for far less than that)
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 6:15:18 AM
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Perfect English, Yuyutsu!
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 27 March 2007 5:13:46 PM
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What is left out of the article is the fact that Israel is the wronged party here. The jews suffered invasion of their country in 640ad by Arab Muslims, who offered them dhimmi status or death. The jews have survived this for 1400 years, having fought unsucesfully on a number of occassions to gain their freedom. From 1948 onwards they have gained a measure of freedom from their former oppressors, and they wish to keep it.
Granting a right of return to the descendants of those who invaded them, and who oppressed them for 1400 years, and who have vowed to return the jews to dhimmi status would be national suicide The leaders of Israel, and those of its citizens with any memory, are right to refuse.
The world has turned upside down when oppressors can seek the right to recomence their oppression and the world's formost bodies seek to help them do so.
Posted by camo, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:54:05 AM
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Camo: "Granting a right of return to the descendants of those who invaded them, and who oppressed them for 1400 years, and who have vowed to return the jews to dhimmi status would be national suicide."

Suicide? Who do you think the Jews-Israelis are?

Selling this "right" itself is surely IDIOCY, silliness, foolishness, STUPIDITY at the greatest scale because targets some illiteral rednecks from deep bushlands only.

Is paying for The Hicks travelling to Guantanamo, while thousand citizens cannot factually afford elementary law assistance domestically, much different populist gest?

Thank you for your post anyway. It is so distinctive from a range of English-correct nonsense here.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 28 March 2007 11:31:03 AM
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Hello MichaelK, thanks for your kind words. I'm not sure of your question, though. Are you asking whether the Israelis who live now in Israel are jewish, or only arab?
There are around 4 million jews living in Israel nowadays. I'm told that about half that number are indigenous to Palestine. They are the remnant of the majority of the population which the Muslim Arab armies encountered when they invaded in 640 AD. There was also, of course, a substantial number of christians, as well as many other peoples. (Including many Samaritans, who have barely survived 1400 years of Islamic rule.)
The Romans named the area Palestine in 135 AD to remove the previous names, Judea, Samaria and Canaan. They chose the name Palestine after the Philistines, a sea-people who no longer had any population in the area. (Perhaps this was deliberate, to stop any existing people feeling priveledged by the choice of name.)
The peoples whom the jews encountered, coming from Egypt, were displaced by the jews, but not wiped out. They were wiped out and/ or moved by Syrian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires.
Posted by camo, Saturday, 31 March 2007 11:52:06 AM
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It is interesting historical information, very useful for comprehending reality, Camo, and not so well known around as everything supportive to a Jewish case-in Palestine or wherever.

“Suicide? Who do you think the Jews-Israelis are?” -my question referred just to a psychological state of the Jews of Israel, living under a constant pressure of annihilation by non-Jews, both neighboring and local.

As understood, a so-called “Australian multiculturalism” is growing unavoidable reality of the Jewish state, where not only religious but mere biological differences ought day-by-day more substantially to be taken into account by comprehending the situation.

This Forum is very educative for me on historical patterns especially.
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 31 March 2007 8:02:58 PM
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