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The Forum > Article Comments > Lesson of loathing > Comments

Lesson of loathing : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 22/3/2007

The Government is inconsistent and hypocritical in its responses to religious extremists.

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Different rules of integration and tolerance do apply to different religious and ethnic groups.

Our politicians prevaricate and make excuses - as do many who write in these forums, governed by their self interest in diminishing our collective rights into religious and ethnic permissions or licences.

Issue to consider is how far do we divide people, and why ?

The High Court's primary job is protecting the Australian people from the avarice of Australian politicians; Their avarice for powers not freely given by the people of Australia.

Is not up to the Prime Minister to constantly condemn Muslims for perceived non-integration or shout out about other religious groups.

It is up to those who have the evidence to place the evidence where it can be assessed and responses judged.

Premiers and the Prime Minister need ensure their Attorney-Generals prosecute - where sufficient evidence, those accused of actively undermining court orders and covering up allegations of sexual assault on minors.

What relevant questions of the Attorney-Generals have been asked in their respective Question times ?

Perhaps we need Constitutional amendments to ensure our Parliaments do meet the first week of every month (except January) for Question time to be a regular call to public account.

Certainly we need more and better questions.

Whilst Party mentality prevails in Parliament we depend on the media, who depend on the politicians who depend on the media who depend on the... perhaps we need elections every year.
Posted by polpak, Thursday, 22 March 2007 9:39:24 AM
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I can only agree with Irfan with this. As a Pagans, my family has faced discrimination and harrassment from Christian's are seeth with anger at us. Once, my eldest daughter(when she was 4yo) was visciously verbally abused by a Christian woman for being an evil child who will die a painful death. When I told her where to put herself, all I got was some rubbish about how non-Christians should not be allowed to have children.

My wife has found herself refused patronage on Brisbane buses by zealous Christian bus drivers for being evil when he saw her pentacle. Of the many things I have experienced, once I was told that all Pagans should be forced to wear symbols to publicly identify us to the general public.

There's a lot of hypocrisy and I do tend to see the organised religions of Jews, Christians and Muslims as one and the same.
Posted by Spider, Thursday, 22 March 2007 10:10:59 AM
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I despair that in this so called enlightened age that religion still survives at all when it is based on superstition and a totally irrational logic. Try reading a book by Richard Dawkins called "The God Delusion" It might just persude you to actually think for yourself rather than be indoctrinated by clerics, priests and evangelists.
Posted by snake, Thursday, 22 March 2007 10:33:18 AM
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What a great article which amply demonstrates our major problem in Australia. Too many large NUMBERS in isolated intolerant ethnic groups.

Forgive me for saying it but, are we Australians or not? We are a conglomeration of all sorts of ethnic mixes, over time, usually smaller groups spread out in the community each enhancing and contributing to the wonderful diversity we enjoy.

What is happening now is large lumps of people being brought in by some who benefit financially to form solid blocks of people who belong in another country. Many do not wish to be Australians at all and are here due to the parlous circumstances they have been forced to leave in their home country. I suggest that, if you ask MOST immigrants, they would say they would be much happier in their home country if it was a place worth living in. Therefore I suggest they stick together to form a "home away from home" with the same attendant problems associated with their society and, unfortunately, the same control freak leaders.

Why replicate the country they were forced to leave. Our quality of life here is fantastic. Why jeapordize it by bringing in people who do not wish to embrace, enhance or contribute or their leaders who wish to quash what we are.

This statement goes for ANY group regardless of origin! It is the sheer NUMBERS that are the problem.
Posted by Guy V, Thursday, 22 March 2007 10:38:36 AM
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Regrettably the government's main aim is to get itself re-elected. Consequently for as long as the government thinks there are more votes in the rabid Christian god-botherers than in some other extremist group (because it is really only the extreme believers who will vote at their religion's behest) they will allow said rabid god-botherers to butter them up. (And I use that expression with its original English public school connotation.) However I suspect there is amongst mainstream Christians and lapsed Christians a general belief that people like Danny Nalliah are harmless loonies. This is because we have some familiarity with them - they are just a more extreme version of the fresh faced young americans on push bikes who come to our doors. Of course this is head-in-the-sand stuff - all harmless loonies have the potential to grow into dangerous loonies.

As a confirmed agnostic I would like to take issue with the earlier comment regarding "The God Delusion". Dawkins' earlier work in his field of biology and neo-Darwinist evolutionary theory are consise and well written. Unfortunately "The God Delusion" is trash, and contains almost all the errors in logic which Dawkins has castigated in his previous works. I would not recommend it to anyone.
Posted by Reynard, Thursday, 22 March 2007 11:20:13 AM
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Irfan Yusuf again diverts the fact that people from Islam are the ones creating terror throughout the world. He seems a mastermind at pulling out the victim card. The religion of secular humanism (from its pathetically flawed evolution base) is causing more harm in this nation than any other religion. The blood of thousands of murdered unborn cry out for justice! The character flaws in leaders of all political persuasions are a result of our failure to call good good and evil evil. Many on these posts are certain about their opinions and then deny absolutes. They appease their seared consciences with hopefully flawed rehashed garbage such as Dawkins book.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 22 March 2007 11:46:20 AM
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Runner,

I think you will find if you look at the posts that only Snake has spoken in favour of the Dawkins book. I have said that, whilst agreeing with it, it is poorly argued and poorly written. No-one else has mentioned it.

Also the Dawkins book is quite peripheral to Irfan's original article which seemed to me to say, and to correctly say, that rabid Christian god-botherers get away with actions which if committed by Islamists (and perhaps others) would draw considerable criticism. The rantings of Danny Nalliah being a case in point! I agree with him totally.
Posted by Reynard, Thursday, 22 March 2007 1:33:07 PM
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Reynard

I have not heard 'The rantings of Danny Nalliah' but I doubt he has ever called on Christians to be violent. If he did it would be inconsistant with Christ's teachings unlike Mohammads calls for violence. With all of Irfans ravings, are not the 2 Danny's the only ones who have ever been charged in this country under religous vilification laws? I know a number of Muslims have been charged with terroism. Muslims generally say what they like and get away with it. When they are criticized they play the victim card.

If you are going to charge 'God botherers' then you should also charge the Global warming botherers as they preach their doomsday heresies while cashing in on the gullible. You should also charge the SBS and the ABC with hetrosexual botherers in their attempt to indoctrinate people with their own lack of morals.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 22 March 2007 1:55:04 PM
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People please!

Let us focus on the problem at hand and dispense with the religious slanging match. You can all believe what you like in whatever language or clothing you like, it will make no difference!

You can take 100 million people from as many diverse and disparate ethnic groups you can dream up and put them in Australia. What good will it do those people or the rest of the world? Absolutely nothing. The world population will not even flicker and the ethnic violence within Australia would be catastrophic.

What would those 100 million do to the quality of life we have in Australia?

ABSOLUTELY decimate it. The place would look like Afghanistan in a week. We DO NOT have the resources to support any more people in any semblance of an equitable lifestyle. We are in a perfect position to work out an economic model that will work with a reducing population, then everyone on the planet can learn and have a chance of bringing their kids up with full bellies and a skate-board.

Lets work it out instead of bickering about your own personal deity!
Posted by Guy V, Thursday, 22 March 2007 2:44:43 PM
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Guy.. I appreciate you wanting to avert pointless bickering between religions, but what you're talking about is immigration.

And nobody is talking about importing 100 million people. Of any persuasion.

runner - your viewpoint is totally clouded by your religion. I'm not sure what you're getting at about the ABC, but it seems to me that you're angry they won't condemn gay people. That about it?

Answer me this - If Danny Nalliah has called for christians to take over the politics of Australia, would you support that call?

And would you support his call to tear down mosques and temples?
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 22 March 2007 2:51:42 PM
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You are talking good sense turnrightthenleft. Runner one correction, Islam bought terror to the West. It has existed for a long time in the eyes of those oppressed so corporations could gut countries and rape the population, it exists in the eyes of parents that know that their children will die because resources are spent on arms. Interestingly the permantent members of the Security Council are the worlds biggest gun runners. Bit like putting the fox in charge of the chicken coup. Apart from personal sorrow terrorism in the West is trival in dimension and human scale.
Posted by Whispering Ted, Thursday, 22 March 2007 4:41:49 PM
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WE should be wary of all forms of extremism. Particularly fanatics who believe that their views should be imposed on everyone.

Irfan has done us a service in alerting us to the rantings of Danny Nalliah. He may be a fruit loop but so was Hitler. Fruit loops in politics can be awfully dangerous. This applied to communists and fascists as well as the evangelic religions.
Posted by logic, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:01:11 PM
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"people like Danny Nalliah are harmless loonies". Yup, Reynard is right. Once again Irfan has flown off the scales of reasonable sensitivities into the stratosphere of unhinged logic. Somebody please take Irfan out for a beer for some pub lessons in the difference between the good guys and the bad guys.

"Well it sure makes you wonder
The things that some people will say
They can see black and white
But they don't seem to notice the grey" - Don Henley
Posted by online_east, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:01:55 PM
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Well Irfan, I must say that I agree with your concerns about extreme forms of Christianity and Islam. You would make an excellent atheist/agnostic/deist. Maybe you should give one of them a go!

So, being as that you are concerned about extreme forms of Islam like Wahabism I would be most interested to hear what your views are on the 'St Petersburg Declaration' at the recent 'Secular Islam Summit' in Florida. The Declation is as follows;

'We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to;

reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;

eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;

protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;

reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims;

and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.....
Posted by TR, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:08:49 PM
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Cont....'We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid strictures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine;

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.'

Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afshin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

I would add an extra comment to that Declaration. That is, to affirm the basic human right of any Muslim women to enter into a loving relationship with a non-Muslim man without condemnation or threat. Traditional Islam currently takes the sexist and anti-human step of prohibiting inter-faith marriages if the women happens to be a Muslim.

So, what do you think Irfan? Is that Declaration too liberal for you, or does it not go far enough?
Posted by TR, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:20:02 PM
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Cripes. This is like that idiotic amusement arcade game where you dong some creature on the head when it pops up.

Any time a 'moderate' Muslim dares to stick his head out, the OLO bigot scrum is here to grind him into the dust.

I think that it's unfortunate that what passes for debate here bears little resemblance to that which is expressed in normal, face to face discourse between actual people.

The usual suspects who always gleefully 'bash' reasonable Muslims like Irfan are at least as responsible for social discord as are the loony imams and sheikhs whom they claim are representative of Islam. Much the same as Christians who support hate-mongers like Nalliah.

Sometimes I think that all public religious expression ought to be banned, on the basis of the social division it obviously fosters. However, I always correct myself because freedom of ideological expression is so integral to the democratic ideals I hold dear.

Such a pity that the religious nutters and racists who infest forums such as this aren't as reasonable..
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:50:59 PM
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All extremists and religious fundamentalists are dangerous people. The Exclusive Brethren had molested children, failed to pay their taxes and are well on the way to taking over the NSW Branch of the Liberal Party.

This threatens our democracy, I dislike fanatics of any kind, be they Pagan, Christian or Muslim, or indeed any other brand of lunatic, religious or not. I judge people seperately not blanket statements on any race colour or creed.

Being Catholic, but these days a NPC I once picked up a hitch hiker after 10 minutes of my swearing, he told me he was a priest and was going into town for supplies when his car broke down. I remember thinking to myself, how many Christians must have passed this man and not stopped, religion tends to be hypocritical witch is why I am NPC.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 23 March 2007 3:08:47 AM
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There you go CJ..calling us "bigoted scum" .. ooook... I did read it.. SCRUM :)

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER ! yep.. we Christians are aiming to take the reigns of the political horse in Australia and guide it to a blessed future? Of course, what this means is that we, as members of society, will exercise our competitive democratic rights, (as ALL members of society can) to persue a political agenda which suits our values. "take over" ? hardly.. our agenda does not suit the masses.

JESUS' POLITICAL PLATFORM. (?)

The 'Masses' came after Jesus

-effective mental health care (cast out demons),
-universal free medical treatment (healed the sick),
-improved the weather (calmed storms),
-made major scientific breakthroughs (walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead)

so... yeah.. MASSES followed Him.

HOW DID HE RESPOND ? "If anyone would follow me, let him DENY himself (carnal desires) and take up his cross daily and come after me"

Unnnnnfortunately, not many of the masses want to hear about this self denial stuff..they would rather have the sex shop in Canterbury road in the name of 'ethical/moral freedom'

When Danny Naliah speaks of 'pulling down' places of worship of non Christian faiths, he is speaking out of II corinthians 10:4

4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Irfy.. puh-lease look more closely. We don't bulldoze Mosques or Buddhist temples. Note, 'not the weapons of this world' ?
Naliah is speaking in unmistakable 'Christian' Jargon. You see, after a sermon we don't go out to the Danish Embassy calling for blood and heads LITERALLY.. it's 'another' religion where that happens.

Given Australia's approx 70% JudaoChristian cultural heritage, it is not unreasonable to deliberately support this at a government level.

Given Islams track record of sectarian violence, murder, political assassination, torture, mutilation of prisoners by Islams FOUNDER, I cannot see reason for the government to support it in any way. (they may as well support Pablo Escobar for Colombian Parliament)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 23 March 2007 6:11:14 AM
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CJ says...

"However, I always correct myself because freedom of ideological expression is so integral to the democratic ideals I hold dear.

Such a pity that the religious nutters and racists who infest forums such as this aren't as reasonable.."

LOOK AT ME..
-"I'm reasonable"
-"I'm not a religious nutter",
-"I treasure democratic ideals", (paraphrase)

In fact Lord.. I'm so glad I'm NOT like that scumbag 'religious nutter' over there..eeeeuuuwwww

Thus did the Pharisee pray...with himSELF..... Onya CJ :)

Paul said "I am the chief of sinners"...Boaz comes a close 2nd. (or maybe a tad in front)

CALLING IRF... when you claim Naliah 'refused to condemn a terrorist organization' can you give a bit more context mate ? like... do you have a quote, documented, and regarding the tearing down of non Christian places of worship.. could you elaborate on that ?
Do you understand the Christian method of speaking ? "Christian Soldiers" only have the Gospel mate.. not ak47s like your mob.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 23 March 2007 7:01:07 AM
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Boaz... I haven't noticed you mentioning Fred Nile's call for a moratorium on muslim immigration, though I may have missed it.

What are your thoughts on his forming a political party? I'd gotten the impression you were against christianity as a political institution, though I see your point about voting rather than actually becoming a part of politics...

But that's not what Fred Nile's doing, he's actually formed a party. What are your thoughts?
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 23 March 2007 10:44:59 AM
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Well done those that look at moderation and the future outside the religious dogma. I am heartened to know that there are reasonable people about who can see what is going on.

I feel sorry for those who are so bound up by ancient texts that they can't see the wood for the trees. You would think that 2000 years of learning, science, communication and history would amount to some form of guidance for the changes necessary to allow our species, and all the other species, to have a future on our little planet.

No, all the ranting religious control freak nutters (usually MEN wearing dresses and cloth hats of one form or another) have to try to hang on to their power base propped up by countless sheep who believe what they say without thinking.

How do we get it through their thick heads that our social dynamic must change. Socially and economically. The first thing we must do is reduce the population.
Posted by Guy V, Friday, 23 March 2007 12:27:05 PM
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TurnrightThenLeft,

Answer me this - If Danny Nalliah has called for christians to take over the politics of Australia, would you support that call?

Of course I don't agree that anyone 'take over' politics in Australia. This is more in line with muslim or secular humanism thinking. I believe Christians have the right to lobby and influence as any other people do. I am not in favour of knocking down other peoples places of worship either.

It is obvious when looking at the ferals that do most of the protesting and violence in this country that it is not made up of Christians. I say again that humanist and muslims seem to have the best track records for violence and terroism. Both these acts are against the teachings of Christ! The only the threat the 'Christian right' whoever they may be pose is to challenge the godless philosophies being promoted by those with few or no morals!
Posted by runner, Friday, 23 March 2007 1:12:42 PM
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I must point out that I have been misquoted (or reather, selectively quoted) by online_east. He quotes me as saying "people like Danny Nalliah are harmless loonies." which is only part of the whole. What I actually said was "there is .... a general belief that people like Danny Nalliah are harmless loonies." So what I am saying is that there is a general belief, but not that that believe is shared by me. This is quite clear a couple of lines later when I say "all harmless loonies have the potential to grow into dangerous loonies."

I would certainly class Nalliah as a loony, but not as harmless. Not yet dangerous, but certainly if empowered and courted by a right wing government well on the way to becoming dangerous. His ranting is no less vile, particularly given the moral high ground taken by his apologists, than we have seen from some of his islamic brothers.
Posted by Reynard, Friday, 23 March 2007 2:19:47 PM
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I'm afraid this thread seems rather to have gone off the rails. Can anyone find any information on Danny Nalliah, that either proves or disproves Irfan's original allegations?

I had a look a the Catch the Fire Ministries blog. I found 8 articles on Islam on the front page, as well as 5 on various anti-anti-vilification legislation campaigns. They certainly seem more interested in bagging Islam than in praising the Lord. But don't take my word for it, have a look yourselves http://www.catchthefire.com.au/blog/ (warning: don't go there if extreme ranting offends).

But just disliking Islam is a long long way from supporting the Tamil Tigers. So does Danny Nalliah repudiate the Tamil Tigers or not?
Posted by Johnj, Friday, 23 March 2007 10:17:14 PM
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Boazy: "Thus did the Pharisee pray...with himSELF..... Onya CJ :)"

Just between you and me Boazy, there's quite a distinction between the universal human activity of thinking and the cultural activity of praying. I used to try and "pray" when I was a kid - but then I grew up and didn't need imaginary friends any more.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 23 March 2007 10:25:34 PM
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I'm glad that you mentioned 'imaginary' CJMorgan because the most tragic imaginary creature in the whole of religious mythology is the BURAQ. This winged-donkey-like-creature is responsible for magnifying the Arab/Israeli conflict a million fold. The human misery that this strange and unreal beast has caused is enough to make any rational person weep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa.html

There are some aspects of religion that deserve to be loathed.
Posted by TR, Saturday, 24 March 2007 7:03:24 AM
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TRTL I did make reference to Fred Niles call in another post.

You are correct... I disagree with specifically 'Christian' political parties in principle. I don't have a lot of time for the Christian Democratic Party on those grounds. Not that I don't subscribe to many of their prinicples of belief I'm sure. But to politicize those beliefs over and above the general democratic rules we live by, is going beyond scripture in my view.

My position is that a party should represent the people. If it chooses VALUES which are Christian, then thats good, and they take it on the chin at the ballot box, they win or they lose based on those values. But as Jesus said "My Kingdom is NOT 'of this world'"

Freds call to halt Islamic Immigration is one I share, but not on "Christian" grounds, purely cultural, social and security ones.
But at a push I'm sure I can find a "verse". (Beware of Wolves in sheeps clothing, false prophets etc)

We can have a government which lives by Christian principle, but we should not have a government which tries in any way to legislate 'personal conviction and faith'.

CJ don't mind me, I could not resist that little dig, because your words trumpeted so much like hmmm lets say the roar of a cyclone in impact, but you just didn't catch it :) No offense.
Imaginary friend ? Well thats always a matter of personal choice and faith. It only takes one degree of intellectual distance "I WON'T believe" for cynical faithlessness to thrive in a persons mind and heart. The classic example is the report of the blind man Jesus healed. The Pharisees did not WAN'T to believe in Jesus Messiahship, so they simply blocked it out of their minds.

Their biggest challenge consisted of the Blind mans words "Whether this man is a sinner or not, I don't know, but one thing I do know, once I was blind, and now I can see"

Probably some of the most powerful words in Scripture. May the scales fall from your eyes.. amen.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 8:34:17 AM
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It would be a far better world without religions, at least the ones we have in conflict in Australia.
That is what we have growing conflict, Christians, most of them at least on hearing I do not believe would feel sorrow for me and maybe try to save me.
Some even most if I made my claim in some parts of my country Muslims would claim I should be killed.
My freedom to live my life is impacted far too much by religion, while I want them to have the right to worship in any way any God are my rights assured?
My country lacks the leadership to question why we continue to grow apart in the name of religion.
And why multi cultures is challenging my rights to my culture.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 25 March 2007 8:22:25 AM
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ol' Irf is always good for a laugh. Now he wants some "Christian" Pollies hypercritical blather to be seen in the same light as the Bali bombers, 9/11, 0r 7/7. It's nothing more than thinly disguised religious bigotry in action. Christian haters, Muslim haters, whats the difference?
Irfan the defender of Islam making statements about other people judging Islam by the acts of terrorist has no problem of attacking Christianity in the name of fair play. As if being concerned for social and national security and discussing necessary measures to defeat Islamic extremist wishing to capture headlines by blowing up the Sydney Opera House is equal to some nutter spouting off about limiting Muslim immigration. Typical. Terrorism is happening somewhere in the world every day and is a genuine fear. Limiting immigration is never going to happen, so no fear at all.
Posted by aqvarivs, Sunday, 25 March 2007 8:57:21 AM
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I dont have much of a problem with what Irfan has written. Religions have no place trying to influence government. But there is a huge difference between what the religious right etc may be doing and what the Islamacists believe should be the way and are agitating for.

I was very interested in the previous reference by some one, to the St.Petersburg Declaration. It makes eminent good sense and would be difficult see how anyone, other than extremists, could object to signing up to it.

Similarly for the document by Tom Zreika on Australian Imams in "The Way Forward", also makes good sense for how Islam should be organised in Australia

http://www.lma.org.au/Australian_Imams_Report.pdf

http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

Despite all this apparant progress, it appears that the new council will re-elect that idiot Hilali as the Grand Mufti. Now what does that say about their intentions and agendas. Pity.
Posted by bigmal, Sunday, 25 March 2007 10:26:53 AM
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I thought that the following survey conducted by 'Policy Exchange' in the UK was interesting;

'Living apart together - British Muslims and the paradox of multiculturalism'

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/246.pdf

Indeed, there was much to optimistic about in the survey results. For example;

'Despite widespread concerns about Islamophobia, 84% of Muslims believe they have been treated fairly in this society.'

And,

'The majority of Muslims feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain as with Muslims abroad”

But unfortunately there were some shockers as well;

'...59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law. 37% of 16-24 year olds prefer sharia compared to 17% of 55+ year olds.

36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds.

7% “admire organisations like Al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West’. 13% of 16-24 year olds agreed with this statement compared to 3% of 55+ year olds.

74% of 16-24 year olds would prefer Muslim women to choose to wear the veil, compared to only 28% of 55+ year...'

I find the attitude of young Muslims to ex-Muslims particularly disturbing. I would suggest that only a totalitarian idealology could encourage such a totalitarian mindset. Something radically wrong has happened to modern Islam and we can no longer pretend that problems don't exist. If challenging Islam to weed out its undesirable tendencies is called 'loathing' then I'm all for it.
Posted by TR, Sunday, 25 March 2007 9:35:55 PM
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TR... your post needs an exclamation mark... so I'll give it one..

TR said: (quoted)

"36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds."

yessssss...hmmmmmm... THAT is an alarming statistic. Its also a TREND.
Young home grown muslims are NOT becoming more moderate they are becoming more radical. I don't suppose the DVD's by the likes of Sheikh Faiz Mohammed of the Sydney Islamic youth centre would have anything to do with that ?

TR regarding Tom Zrieka's 'friendly/moderate/progressive' approach..lets also remember HE HAD DEATH THREATS for that position.
I guess they were from Sydney's 36% of 16-24yr old who think like their peers in UK ?

100,000 Muslims in Sydney ? (a while guess) possibly 20,000 of them in the 16-24yr old bracket. 36% of 20,000 is... around 7000 ...yep..a considerable worry if this guess is even close.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 26 March 2007 7:47:50 AM
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Statistics are wonderful, aren't they? And they keep on coming around and coming around...

The survey quoted by TR was the one Boaz used to claim:

>>The current polling suggests 50% of UK muslim youth want to live under Sharia Law. That probably represents over a million people<<

Remember that, Boaz? Took you a while to back away from that, but hey, here it is again.

>>"36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds."

yessssss...hmmmmmm... THAT is an alarming statistic. Its also a TREND.<<

No, Boaz, it is not a trend.

It would be a trend if you surveyed again in a few years time and found that those young folk clung on to their bigotry as they got older.

What often happens is that as people get older, and take on more responsibilities in society, their tendency to want to change the world at every opportunity wanes, in favour of a more balanced, mellow attitude.

Those statistics can also be used to "prove" exactly that: older Muslims are less radical than youngsters. No great surprise, really.

Just another example of how you pounce on any opportunity to highlight anything that puts Muslims in a i) bad and ii) dangerous light.

And that is a consistent and measurable trend, my friend.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 26 March 2007 6:44:41 PM
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Having lived in the Muslin quarter of Calcutta, travelled by van across Pakistan, local bus across Afghanistan, hitched across Iran and travelled by local bus across Turkey I can say that Muslims have the same fundamental needs we all do. As do the humiliated, the disenfranchised and dispossesed.
Posted by Whispering Ted, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 10:12:24 AM
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Irafn, was that you I saw in the audience of 'Difference of Opinion'?

I must admit that after the show I couldn't help thinking that society could solve its religious problems by not having religion. Just get rid of Judaism/Christianity/Islam and replace them with something more useful and sensible. Honestly, the 'panel' did talk a load of predictable religious twaddle.
Posted by TR, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 9:49:57 PM
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Irfan wrote:

"I am not a huge fan of legislation that criminalises certain types of speech."

Hear, hear!

I take it then you are in favour of repealing Victoria's notorious "Racial and Religious Tolerance Act."

Now there's a name that typifies Orwellian doublespeak. Will its enforcement be left to the "Ministry of Love" I wonder.
Posted by Stephany, Sunday, 8 April 2007 6:23:07 PM
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Stephany - I've noticed that your 'War Against Irfan' has had a bit of a 'surge' lately. I also note that this post didn't begin with "LOL".

Does this mean you've resumed taking your medication?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 8 April 2007 6:53:22 PM
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CJ Morgan,
I bit of a low blow mate!
It adds nothing at all to the debate...

Stephany makes some very pertinent points.
I'd like to hear some straight answers from her opponent(s).
Posted by Horus, Monday, 9 April 2007 7:54:15 AM
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CJ Morgan,
A bit of a low blow mate!
It adds nothing at all to the debate...

Stephany makes some very pertinent points.
I'd like to hear some straight answers from her opponent(s).
Posted by Horus, Monday, 9 April 2007 7:54:56 AM
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Horus,

Thanks for your support.

I doubt I shall get a sensible answer from Irfan.

CJ Morgan

I do find Irfan rather amusing. Hence the frequent resort to "LOL."

My "medication" is my daily dose of laughter

LOL

;-)

I posted this table on another thread but it has obvious relevance here. Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting it twice. (Just the table not the whole post)

See:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

UNfavourable attitudes towards:

Country……………Christians……………Jews………………………Muslims

US……………………………6%................7%..................... 22%
Canada …………………..9%..............11%......................26%
UK……………………………6%................6%......................14%
France…………………..15%...............16%.....................34%
Germany……………….13%...............21%.....................47%

Spain…………………….10%................20%.....................37%
Netherlands………….15%................11%.....................51%
Russia…………………….3%................26%.....................36%
Poland…………………….5%................27%.....................30%
Turkey……………………63%...............60%.....................11%
Pakistan………………..58%...............74%.......................2%

Indonesia……………….38%..............76%.......................1%
Lebanon…………………..7%..............99%.......................7%
Jordan…………………….41%............100%.......................1%
Morocco………………….61%.............88%........................3%
China……………………..47%.............49%.......................50%

India……………………….19%.............17%.......................43%

For the rest of my post see:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=518
Posted by Stephany, Monday, 9 April 2007 12:24:37 PM
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One only need to look at the posts here to understand why minority peoples must rely on law such as the "Racial and Religious Tolerance Act."
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 9 April 2007 12:49:41 PM
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Stephany, your quoted statistics talk about 99% of people in lebanon having negative attitudes toward Jews.

Are you suggesting this somehow reflects on Muslims in Australia? Are you suggesting Lebanon is a Muslim state?
Posted by Irfan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 2:16:17 AM
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Irfan,

I'm pointing out that states with Muslim majority populations have high degrees of antipathy towards Jews as well as Christians. I recognize that Lebanon is a special case. However, even excluding Lebanon, the analysis still holds. Of particular concern are the figures for Indonesia and Pakistan.

I am asking whether people migrating to Australia from Muslim countries bring these attitudes with them. It's a reasonable question.

A corollary question is to what extent subsequent generations might hold such attitudes.

Note that the statistics also indicate a high degree of antipathy towards Muslims in many European countries. Given the burgeoning European Muslim population where do you think this is going to end?
Posted by Stephany, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 11:43:46 AM
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I'm almost off thread here, although consistent with the authors original statement. I agree that the government is spending too much time on the issue of the Muslim community. The greatest internal threat to this nation is the increasing prominance of the religious right christian movement. Some of these threads certainly illustrate that problem. The fact that this evangelistic christian movement, that was once a fringe movement, is now almost mainstream; is cause for some deep soul searching. The Muslims community has its problems in this regard and its clear they are aware of it and attempting to do something about it. But I hear very little public comment about the christian extremist, except the odd Four Corners show regarding the NSW Liberal Party.
Posted by Netab, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 3:59:08 PM
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