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The Forum > Article Comments > Self defence or arms race? > Comments

Self defence or arms race? : Comments

By Jeff Schubert, published 14/2/2007

What Israel and the United States really want is to maintain their power to call most of the shots.

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David can you tell me any of the predictions of the Old Testament that have come to pass?
Posted by keith, Thursday, 15 February 2007 2:11:24 AM
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Jeff Schubert,

From my vantage point at Ground Zero of what could be an immanent and devastating nuclear attack, your reassurances ring hollow. You claim that “Iran is not seeking nuclear weapons to destroy Israel”. Ahmadinejad, who has said repeatedly that Israel should be “wiped off the map”, begs to differ.

You tell us that regimes are not suicidal. And yet, regimes have come and gone, sometimes in a flurry of avoidable violence. In many cases, we could point to decisions they made that were critical in bringing about their own demise. Decisions that, in retrospect, look suicidally foolish.

Despite what you write, the Nazi example is a good one. Hitler’s aggressions were completely unnecessary, but would have been tolerated and appeased if they were not on such a grand scale, threatening all of Europe, and ultimately, the world. And looking at how Germany expended such considerable effort to achieve genocide when the country’s resources could have been used productively in the war effort, one doesn’t get the idea that this was a rational regime. The entire Nazi program was ultimately suicidal. You claim that Hitler “only became suicidal toward the end”, but isn’t “the end” usually when people pull the trigger? No doubt if Ahmadinejad pushes the suicide button for himself and his country, this too will be “toward the end”.

You say that “the Holocaust only occurred because Hitler and various Germans thought that they could get away with it.” Indeed. And that is why it is crucial to impress upon the Ahmadinejad regime (and anyone else who harbors similar thoughts) now that they cannot and will not get away with it. How would you suggest that we do that?

As others have pointed out, given the mindset of suicide bombers, one cannot rely on rational calculation alone as a means of deterrence.

Continued...
Posted by sganot, Thursday, 15 February 2007 3:27:07 AM
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You claim that Israel wants “power to call most of the shots”. But Israel has never threatened Iran, and does not call for it to be wiped off the map. What “shots” do we call in Teheran? If, as is reported, we have our own nuclear arsenal, how have we used it to change any Iranian policies?

Finally, some have suggested that an Iranian first strike, while accomplishing a new holocaust, would not be suicidal at all. On this, see http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1167467762531

...

johncee1945, perhaps no one told you, but Sharon split from the Likud in November 2005 and formed a governing coalition around a new center-left party that he founded, "Kadima". Soon after, he suffered a devastating stroke, and he’s been in a coma for more than a year. He is no longer the Israeli prime minister. Kadima came out on top in subsequent elections, and remains the head of the government, while the Likud sits in the opposition.
Posted by sganot, Thursday, 15 February 2007 3:29:53 AM
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Dear Keith
refer Luk 24:44-49

But the list is endless... most are fulfilled in Christ. (Isaiah 9:6, Is 53, Pslam 22 "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" was a fulfillment of that)

Did you actually sus out the points I raised mate ? I'd be interested in your feedback on it..

Re Israel.. Ezekiel Ch 37 and subsequent. "Valley of Dry bones"

There is a theme in the O.T. of an 'exodus' but while it did have some fullfillment with the return from Exile, it appears to have significance in connection with the last days and Christs return. There's plenty to google on it and plenty within that to sort in terms of weeds and wheat. Some speculation is plain whacky.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 15 February 2007 6:06:44 AM
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David

You've mentioned the possibility of only one prediction coming true yet claim the list is endless. Such generalisation leaves a lot to be desired and suggest the opposite of what you intend.

As for Christ's coming the Hebrews don't subscribe to many important aspects involved in that particular prediction. You at odds with the Hebrew religion over that point?
Posted by keith, Thursday, 15 February 2007 8:57:07 AM
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Sorry, but yawn. I went away for a few weeks and ignored OLO. I decided tonight to have another look. Still the same baseless arguments from those who dislike the US, and of course Israel because that country is supported by the USA. (Australia is also supported by the US but don't let facts get in the way of a good article.)

Apparently according to Jeff Schubert the holocaust is historically not relevant to the argument but Napoleon and Russia are!

No I don't like Bush or Howard either but please don't ignore history. And if children are brainwashed into believing firmly in a paradise if they do certain things even if it is suicide then sufficient number will be convinced, and brave (foolish) enough to follow.

And therein lies a problem. While classic Islam does not permit suicide or murder it has been perverted by a worryingly large group. And Iran is a strong supporter of that group. Perhaps the Iranian leadership is trying to draw its population's attention away from the mess that the theocracy has made of their lives.

And why blame the US so fervently for trying to ensure the world's oil supplies? Imagine the mass unemployment and attendant misery that would occur if oil was no longer obtainable.
Posted by logic, Sunday, 18 February 2007 8:55:19 PM
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