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The Forum > Article Comments > Tony Abbott needs to learn about his religion > Comments

Tony Abbott needs to learn about his religion : Comments

By Justin Whelan, published 9/2/2007

Tony Abbott decides he is qualified to make judgments about what churches can and cannot criticise on the basis of faith.

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Sorry, I have to disagree.

As quoted, Tony Abbott said, “There is not a single, authoritative Christian position on the Iraq War, climate change or border protection'.

He didn't say 'Church' position; he said 'Christian' position. As this article points out, the 'Church' has some clear positions on social issues. However if you took a poll of the various positions held on these issues by the members of any church, you would find a whole range of opinions.

I’m not a huge Tony Abbott fan, but I do agree with his statement that there is no single Christian position on the Iraq War, climate change and border protection.
Posted by BradA, Friday, 9 February 2007 10:16:23 AM
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When Justin Whelan says "Prior to the Iraq War, the churches were almost unanimously opposed to a pre-emptive strike. Only one prominent church figure, Anglican Bishop Tom Frame (then head of the Anglican chaplaincy team for the Australian Defence Forces), argued it satisfied just war criteria. Three months after the invasion, Bishop Frame recanted in the strongest possible terms, asking God’s forgiveness on the opinion pages of The Age newspaper." he is lying. Many churches supported the war on Iraq.

Also, the National Council of Churches in Australia does not speak for most of the churches of Australia. It doesn't even have an even spread of denominiations as it doesn't have any pentacostal churches on it's huge roster of 15 member churches.

Of course, Justin seems to think that someone saying that there is not a single authoritative position is 'farcical' but then goes on to admit in every case that there was not a single authoritative position. Tony Abbott may not know everything about his religion, but at least he understands logic and rationality better than Justin.
Posted by Grey, Friday, 9 February 2007 10:17:24 AM
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I actually have to disagree with this a little bit as well. "No single authoritative Christian position". I've always believed that a person's Christian conviction should be based on their best interpretation of Scripture, and the still quiet voice of God speaking into their heart. Christian leaders may add to that but not control it. A cursory examination of Scripture will tell you that, especially in Jesus' day, religious leaders were often wrong in their matters of conscience.

For the record, I disagree with Tony on his opinions of Iraq, climate and border protection... however I believe that, unless God were to speak clearly from the heavens, "there is no single, authoritative Christian position" on these issues.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Friday, 9 February 2007 11:17:43 AM
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The National Council of Churches is kind of like the UN of the world. Not to many Christians take them seriously. Tony Abbot is correct in his assesment that '“There is not a single, authoritative Christian position on the Iraq War, climate change or border protection.”
While I will leave the Iraq war issue to be debated elsewhere I find it hard to find a single Scripture (after reading the bible many times) that talk about Work Choices or Climate change. In fact many Christians I know across denominations share my belief that man made global warming is a myth. On the issue of border protection some Christians see our laws to soft while others view them as to hard.

Justin is entitled to his social gospel view but shows a limited understanding of how many biblical thinking Christians think.
Posted by runner, Friday, 9 February 2007 12:04:40 PM
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Seems to me that in saying there was no single "christian" viewpoint, Abbott had to know it was at least tacitly invoking the views of the church.
Technically he is right - there is no single christian viewpoint.
But really, if not intentionally misleading it is making a statement that hints at a complex view that most certainly isn't that complex when answered by the churches who these christians follow.

The assertion that all the churches have been opposed to this war is valid. I would be very interested to see how Abbott would respond when confronted with this statement.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 9 February 2007 2:27:53 PM
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hey Justin (and Annmaree),
it is good to read an inclusive perpective from a Protestant agency rep with reference to Catholic teaching. (I recall the Student Christian Movement's similarity to IMCSA in its active catholic criticism of any individualistic mantra.)
I think the major problem with Abbot's statement is the implication that there is no cohesive moral opposition to any Government's intervention in Iraq, (or lack of authority in seeking clemency for David Hicks).Yet, of course there is! Jesus living and active in the Church and the world!
'Bible-based' Christians ought not to exclude dogma from sources of authority. It discounts our human need to interpret the Gospel and to heed Jesus' call to read the signs of the times (as accurately as we may prophesise on the weather).
God is living and active in Australia. However his activity has political implications. Abbot is a wounded man, who needs 'authority' to be forced upon the world in order for it to seem real. This position prevents any active participation of an intellectual debate in the government of our country (my first point).
Cheers,
a fan who used to hail from Syd. Uni + Strathfield
Posted by Renee, Friday, 9 February 2007 5:03:13 PM
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I think that Justin is pretty fair to Mr Abbott. He often refers to his Catholocism, and is very strong on some of the teachings of his church. Justin is just making clear how selective Mr Abbott is being, not on biblical teaching as such, but on church teaching. Mr Abbott may have been too clever by half to refer to a single Christian doctrine - he would have to say that about birth control too. The Christian churches in Australia are regularly making statements, as they are in the USA and Europe (including the Pentecostal churches not directly associated with the national church bodies) and these should be taken seriously as Justin suggests. Mr Abbott would be clearly aware of the power of his statement and would, or should, know that he is being careless with the "whole" truth.
Posted by tom79, Friday, 9 February 2007 6:06:53 PM
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Tony Abbott is a bloke who suffers from "small man syndrome" he is paranoid about his religion, we don't need politicians like this having a say in how our country is run, remember the seperation of powers.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 10 February 2007 1:59:47 AM
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Justin Whelan has sarcastically suggested Tony Abbott do a refresher course in Christian ethics at his old seminary. He could do with a refresher course himself at his old Sunday School where he first learned the Ten Commandments, the fifth being Thou Shalt Not Kill. His Uniting Church has seen fit to put this particular law of God on trial in a human court when it "debated" abortion at its Assembly several years ago. The Uniting Church's weak position on abortion and it's indifference to the 100,000 deaths cased by abortion every year in Australia is one of the great scandals ofChristianity.Typically Justin Whelan refers to Rerum Novarum
(wonder if he has ever read it?) whose author would disagree vehemently with the Uniting Church's record on the sanctity of life ethic.It's only Rerum Novarum that commentators like Justin Whelan ever speak of and so affectedly!It does have a good ring to it the words Rerum Novarum! They never refer to Evangelium Vitae! Come on Justin, have you ever even read it? Christ didn't only come to comfort the afflicted Justin. He also came to afflict the comfortable! Lets hear it from you Justin! How do you and the Uniting Church stand on abortion, the slavery issue of our times?
Posted by Denny, Saturday, 10 February 2007 11:05:01 AM
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Big Ears is used to talking to Noddy. Mr Plod needs to do something about him before he ascends the throne in the clouds.

Abbott and Costelloe. Jest a joke. Preaching a speciality. Keep religion where it belongs. Elswehere.
Posted by RobbyH, Saturday, 10 February 2007 11:21:40 AM
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Lol RobbyH. That is coment was well deserved.

Some of you don't know what a naughty boy Mr Abbott was, or maybe, still is.

Something disturbing I noticed a few times when I was a guest lecturer at the College of Fine Arts, was this creep called Tony Abbot used to lurk around the lecture halls looking for unsuspecting female art students. Some must have fell for his charms and ended up pregnant.

Its funny when someone questioned if he was Tony Abbot's son, poor old Cassonova Abbot had to get his little black book out, volume 3, to see which shags could possibly cause a pregnancy.

I wonder how many children of artists have big ears, little man syndrome, and prattish ways.

Yeah, there was no Christian authority on any of this either. For a man that bashes his bible so much, for a man who fathered, God knows how many "love children" when he smoked dope at the Art College. For a man who had no sense of morals in his own life? He talks the talk, but has no control over his sexual escapades at all.

The role model for all Catholics? I bet the confessionals take a long time when Abbot arrives. The poor old Priest would need the reserve valium before the creature started. Then he went into politics. As what? An advocate for moral values?

I doubt Kevin Rudd knew what dope looked like. He was just a farm boy.
Posted by saintfletcher, Sunday, 11 February 2007 1:44:27 AM
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well now, it is worse than that and "the DNA kid" Abbott may also be responsible for getting Telstra in the family way. Read all about it at

http://csacalc.com/divorce/back.htm

or go direct to

http://csacalc.com/divorce

and yo all sing along with Amanda [scroll down for video of Amanda's band Van Stone]
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Sunday, 11 February 2007 9:23:14 AM
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"No single christian position" is code for 'lets listen to George Bush again"
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 11 February 2007 9:42:41 AM
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but Bush/Hitler/Stalin are babes in arms compared to hundreds of years of systematic extermination of "non believers" by Catholics [Tony's "One True Church"] in Spanish Inquisition
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Sunday, 11 February 2007 10:36:28 AM
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Abbott you hypocrite!

When you publicly and contritely admit to the complicity in the Hanson/Ettridge matter, and honestly ask for forgiveness, then you will be able to make comments about church and state.

Until then Sir, please shut it firmly, and don't go on piously about religion and such.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Sunday, 11 February 2007 2:38:26 PM
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How surprising that this post have degenerated into a Abbot/Howard hating exercise. I am not sure if that is what the author intended but with such a non factual biased article what else could you expect.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 11 February 2007 3:39:32 PM
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Oh, but runner, the Baptists have the answer to that one too.

God loves Tony Abbot and John Howard. Just like he loves Osama.

Its their sins He hates, not them personally.

What did Abbot have against Pauline Hanson? I could never work that one out.

Oh that's right, Tony Abbot wants the immigration of Australia to go up to at least 60 million people to fit the market demands. Pauline Hanson stood up against that as she was always against immigration.

I wonder where all the water was going to come from for all the new people to drink?
Posted by saintfletcher, Sunday, 11 February 2007 6:35:01 PM
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Sorry Runner, you are the first to mention How Hard. Did you notice? Or just guilt by association.

What did Abbott have against Hanson? Is that an elevator joke?
Posted by RobbyH, Sunday, 11 February 2007 9:43:56 PM
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Tony Abbott said, “There is not a single, authoritative Christian position on the Iraq War"

Christians believe Christ said, 'Resist not the evil man. If he strikes you on the left cheek turn the right cheek to him so that he may strike that also...etc'

That seems like a single, authoritative Christian position on all wars to me.
Posted by Rob513264, Monday, 12 February 2007 3:03:07 AM
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Rob513264,

Christ apparently did say that but He also allowed, even encouraged his Apostles to be armed.
Were He on Earth today would they be commanded to have Israeli 'Desert Eagle' pistols or the old reliable Colt 1911 model?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 February 2007 8:29:55 AM
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Putting Tony Abbott in charge of Health, is like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank....a clear conflict of interests.
Does he have Geoge Pell on speed-dial?
Posted by martial470, Monday, 12 February 2007 9:14:31 PM
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There may not be a 'single christian position' on the Iraq war - but Christ himself was pretty definite about not taking up arms. This is the point of the whole story - a man who gave his life without retaliation. The Jews were given a choice between a zealot insurgent and Christ. They chose the zealot and after 2 millenia of Christianity, Christians are still cheerleading and prefering violence - do any of them ever read?
Posted by K£vin, Tuesday, 13 February 2007 10:13:20 AM
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It seems many christians seem unable to understand the concept of non-violence preached by jesus, let alone the source of the new testament and instead get caught up following the ridiculous diatribes of the torah.
you dont need religion to have a social conscience, and would be better off making decisions without referring to voices in your head for guidance. that should leave you with a relaxing stay in a mental hospital.

freedom is the seperation between church and state. keep religion out of politics.
Posted by julatron, Tuesday, 13 February 2007 10:34:47 AM
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Tony Abbott, serial "has been", he "has been" a candidate for the priesthood, the Minister for Workplace Relations; and hopefully soon the ex Minister for Health.

A couple Tony...
"If church men spent more time" - women also form a large part of the Church (they are also a large part of the vulnerable and the low paid in our society, and they vote)

"encouraging virtue in people and less time demanding virtue from governments" - 1. the government we are led to believe, are people; 2. we should not have to "demand" virtue from our governments - it is your job - guess what, we, can sack you with no access to unfair dismissal, though you are still entitled to your "redundancy pay" which Superman couldn't jump over - maybe you can think about putting some of that back into society.

"society would be better off" - or is it government that's better off without a collective challenges to your misuse of power.

As a member of the Catholic Church it is evident you haven't spent much time studying the teachings on the common good, the protection of the vulnerable and support for families - something sadly missing in your NoChoices legislation. In fact many of those "two overcoat" people gladly give so others may receive. Many of them giving wholeheartedly to your demise.

Not proclaiming your Catholicity so loud and clear these days - gee Tony, what's happened?

Good news on jobs and wages? Where are the statistics on AWAs published? You mistakenly claim a correlation between the two.

The "religious" you attack are actually not dealing in politics, as called by their vocation, they deliver the message of Jesus to the world. And guess what? WE, THE VOTERS ARE LISTENING

Tony, I encourage you to keep opening your mouth on these issues, it shows your lack of intellect and knowledge and ability to critically analyse a situation. It also digs that hole for Little Johnny's government just a little bit deeper. Keep up the good work.
Posted by GetReal, Friday, 12 October 2007 3:46:21 PM
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I agree totally mate
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Friday, 12 October 2007 8:29:25 PM
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I would like to bring Tony's attention to a recent address by Pope Benedict XVI, which sums up this issue and draw attention to the last sentence which might and should guide Tony's conscience as the Catholic he professes to be (when it suits).

"This political task is not the immediate competency of the Church. Respect for a healthy secularity - including the pluralism of political opinions - is essential in the Christian tradition. If the Church were to start transforming herself into a directly political subject, she would do less, not more, for the poor and for justice, because she would lose her independence and her moral authority, identifying herself with a single political path and with debatable partisan positions. The Church is the advocate of justice and of the poor, precisely because she does not identify with politicians nor with partisan interests. Only by remaining independent can she teach the great criteria and inalienable values and guide consciences and offer a life choice that goes beyond the political sphere. To form consciences, to be the advocate of just and truth, to educate in individual and political virtues: that is the fundamental vocation of the Church in this area. And lay Catholics must be aware of their responsibilities in public life, they must be present in the formation of the necessary consensus and in opposition to injustice. Pope Benedict XVI, 13 May 2007"
Posted by GetReal, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:12:10 PM
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Tony, I encourage you to keep opening your mouth on these issues, it shows your lack of intellect and knowledge and ability to critically analyse a situation. It also digs that hole for Little Johnny's government just a little bit deeper. Keep up the good work.

-

well I would like this creep Abbott to stick around for a while and not hide behind redundancy

as Keating said "I want to do him slowly" and the wheels are in motion for the "DNA KID" to get his cum-uppence
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Saturday, 13 October 2007 10:48:18 PM
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Abbott is a very strange animal, a hypocrite and a liar. When studying for the priesthood he was having unwed sex when a pregnancy ensuded he did not accept his responsibility and find his son. This is the ytpe of man [I use the term lightly] we have as Australian Health Minister. The whole Howard Government seems to be so out of touch with working Australia I cannot see how they have a chance of re-election.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 13 October 2007 11:11:49 PM
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yes indeed it IS his eposode doing "top to tail" [ie why I call him the DNA kid] that I will be soon "contesting"

watch this space
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Sunday, 14 October 2007 7:32:37 AM
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