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The Forum > Article Comments > After Lebanon: a personal reflection on Israel and Palestine > Comments

After Lebanon: a personal reflection on Israel and Palestine : Comments

By Philip Mendes, published 13/11/2006

There is a huge cultural gulf between Israeli and Palestinian concepts of peace.

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Both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist. But, as long as Islam exists, there will be no peace in the Middle East or, as is now apparent to all but the blind, deaf and dumb, anywhere in the world. For Muslims, Islam is everything, including politics. They want “peace” their way or not at all. The conflict between Palestine and Israel should now be viewed as a precursor to what will happen all over the world as more and more Muslims move into the West.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 13 November 2006 10:19:19 AM
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Philip,

You said:
“Of course, the two-state solution will never work unless or until the Arab world ends its 58-year-old military, political, trade and intellectual siege of Israel. This siege is not about what Israel has actually done - good or bad - during its existence”

I think you got the causal effect in reverse.
Since the partition of Palestine in 1948, Israel had gradually taken Palestinians land by force and re-distributed it to Jewish settlers. Its too late for credibility talks now unless by some miracle Israel will drive to resolve the Palestinians problem once for all with no more ducking and weaving over words like the famous “land” or “The Land”.

Living in the Middle East for over 2 decades, Arabs and Israelis have few things in common: they have ultra long memory and beliefs are non negotiable.
I don't think its solvable but good theory though!
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 13 November 2006 1:34:52 PM
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Thanks very much for this article. Unfortunately there aren't published a lot of well-thought articles like this one about this very difficult issue. I find it very hard to decide where I stand, but I do like reading intellectual, well-argumented articles about it. One thing I find very difficult to accept though, is the fact that many on the Left side of politics turn a blind eye on the antisemitism and anti-Western attitudes in some muslim circles, attitudes that existed before 1948. To quote British writer Martin Amis in ABC's Lateline last week:

'We must never lose sight of the fact that this is like other movements that we're familiar with, Nazism and Bolshevism. This is an ideology that has freed itself from reason, and you get a huge push when you do that because suddenly everything is possible, and it has freed itself from reason and it is feeding on death.
Now, this is what people find so difficult. It is effortful to come to an understanding of that. Much, much nicer to wallow in rationalist naiveté and say that it is our fault. In England, there were middle class whities walking around during August with signs saying "We are all Hezbollah now .” Well enjoy it, enjoy being Hezbollah while you can, because its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, famously said of the West, "We don't want anything from you, we just want to eliminate you."'

It is also interesting to read the following article:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25382

Once again; this is not to silence any criticism of Israel. That criticism is very legitimate. It is just to bring some balance in the general opinion in the more 'serious' press and 'intellectual' circles, because these circles have in my eyes tended too much towards one-sidedness.
Posted by KeesB, Monday, 13 November 2006 2:09:02 PM
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Philip Mendes - "This siege is not about what Israel has actually done - good or bad - during its existence."

If I occupied your land, stole your possessions and killed your family would you simply forgive and forget?

Leigh - "But, as long as Islam exists, there will be no peace in the Middle East or, as is now apparent to all but the blind, deaf and dumb, anywhere in the world."

Who is invading who?

KeesB - "antisemitism and anti-Western attitudes in some muslim circles, attitudes that existed before 1948."

I suggest you read up on your post World War 1 history particularly the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the Battle of Megiddo in 1918 or go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine and then maybe you won’t have to regurgitate what ABC's Lateline feeds you.
Posted by Chad, Monday, 13 November 2006 3:30:30 PM
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I think the main problem is that many outsiders are not prepared to
accept the concept that the problem between the Israelis and the
Palestinians is indeed unsolvable.

There is no solution. No buts no ifs nothing !

Why is it so ?; well I believe it is because the Arabs believe that the
area has been theirs for some 1500 years and the Jews think it has been
theirs for some 3000 years.

So why should we worry about unsolvable problems.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 13 November 2006 3:46:09 PM
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Dear Chad.....
Have you heard of Khaiber ? you said:

-'killed your family'
-'occupied your land'
-'stole your posessions'

For Islam/Mohammed add:

-Torture to find treasure.
-'Allowed 'temporary marraige' for the soldiers of captive women (=rape)

would you forgive and forget ?

Todays Jews would be wise to recall the name of one of Hezbollahs missiles "Khaiber2"

The Islam of Mohammed is based on these very ingredients and he was the first to practice them against Jews in the Arabian Peninsula.
(Jewish chief Kanana tortured by mohammed to find the treasure) Then...there is one more. Can you name one (JUST ONE) incident where the modern Jews have killed a palestinian male and taken his wife as THEIR wife, and his children as slaves ? Or Israeli soldiers allowed for 3 days to rape Palestinian women after their men are killed ? This what Mohammed DID to the Khaiber Jews. (source Ibn Ishaq)

PHILIP.... is it we Christians alone (+Leigh+Ben Netanyahu) who understand what is really going on over there ?
For goodness sake... your own pilgrimage of thinking shows how wrong and naive your previous view was.

The question will ALways resolve to "If we gave the Palestinians adequate land and resources, would the conflict dissappear?"
Answer...NO. Why ?

1/ The theological concept of "Islamic Lands"
2/ The spiritual significance to Muslims of Jerusalem.

Thats it.
Everyone wishing to understand the forces at work should read the

1/ Hamas Charter.
2/ Bible. Genesis 12 to end + Exodus, Joshua, Judges, Deuteronomy.
Special focus on Genesis 12 to the end.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 13 November 2006 5:15:27 PM
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I submit that the major shortcoming in all Israeli proposals is the lack of any recompense for those Palestinians whose land was appropriated by jewish settlers. Talking only at the state level does absolutely nothing for the millions of individuals currently living in refugee camps as dispossessed and stateless persons. What does Israel think should happen with these people - that those currently living on the fragmented and beseiged West Bank and Gaza strip should share their bit of land with these millions?

After WW2, the dispossessed jews of Europe made a home in Palestine and on the lands owned by Palestinians (only about 7% of the land made Israel by UN mandate was owned by Jews). The dispossessed Palestinians have had nowhere to go and remain in refugee camps.

If Israel really wants peace, the obvious first step has to be to find a just solution for these refugees. Is this impossible? I wouldn't think so considering that Israel continues to take in new settlers and has been doing so for very many years now.

However, I also think that the problem is not just one for Israel to solve. The world community also must bear some responsibility.
Posted by Jan_Sydney, Monday, 13 November 2006 6:01:48 PM
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Jan_Sydney

You and many other correspondents seem to be totally unaware of one thing.

The dispossesed Jews of Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and other Arab lands. Their descendents make up roughly half of Israel's present day Jewish population. Their numbers at the time of their movement into Israel roughly equalled the number of displaced Palestinians.

The author is right to insist that a solution requires the Muslim Arabs to accept Israel. When Israel left the Gaza strip, removed their settlers what was the reaction from the Palestinians? Missiles and suicide bombings. This attitude has to change for peace to occur.
Posted by logic, Monday, 13 November 2006 7:03:27 PM
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Dear BOAZ_David
I am by no means a devoted muslim; however I will not allow you to disgrace Islam.

1) Ibn Ishaq statements are in direct contradiction to the Quran.
2) Ibn Ishaq was born 72 years after Mohammed’s death.
3) According to Gregor Schoeler a non-Muslim Islamic scholar, the Jewish schools of the Talmudic period (200CE-500CE) had their method of authentication by isnād introduced to Islam by Jewish converts.

Regardless, even if it is true you’re referring to something which happened 1000’s of years ago. Palestinians are dying everyday because of the Israeli occupation and it’s not a question of religion but one of humanity.

logic - Between 1919 and 1923, 40,000 Jews, mainly from Eastern Europe arrived in the wake of: The First World War; the British conquest of Palestine.
Posted by Chad, Monday, 13 November 2006 7:43:11 PM
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Bazz
You are right when you say this problem between the Jews and Arabs has no solution.
As their two populations grow larger there can only be an esculation of their fight over more land. Where I live up here in North Queensland new suburbs seem to go up over night and we are only having 1.8children apparently. What must the expanding demand for land to live on be like when you are having 10children per woman.

When we didnt have Television in this country,pictures of the lastest conflict somewhere on the other side of the world werent beamed into our lounge rooms and so we didnt feel the need to race around the world and try to fix all these conflicts. What would have happened if we had watched the Romans conquering countries on our Telvisions would we have raced over there to stop them.
You know what would have happened dont you? The Ceasers would have despatched their armies to attack us.
We always run that risk when we get involved in these peacekeeping missions.
I believe Bali was one example of this. And Americas percieved backing of the Israelies in the Middle East conflict has resulted in them being targeted by the other side in the conflict. The Arabs.

Peackeeping missions might make us feel better because we have stopped the killing that is disturbing us on our T.V. screens and we can feel more comfortable while watching. But it is only a bandaid solution and when the peacekeeping forces pull out whether it be in 6months or 10years the fighting and killing will start all over again.
Posted by sharkfin, Monday, 13 November 2006 8:12:02 PM
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KeesB
"We must never lose sight of the fact that this [militant Islam] is like other movements that we're familiar with, Nazism and Bolshevism...."

Zionism has more to do with Nazism than radical Islam. Both are nineteenth century nationalist ideologies. Like Nazism, Zionism is based on an elect few "chosen people", only this time they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Like Nazism, Zionism is inherently expansionist. Hitler wanted to stop around the Volga, while Zionists believe in an Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Nazis implemented the Nüremburg Laws to discriminate against non-Aryians; Israel has implemented laws openly discriminating against Arab Israelis based on race and religion. Hitler wanted Berlin to be the capital of the German Reich for a thousand years; I once heard Benjamin Netanyahu claim Jerusalem to be the "the undivided and eternal [1000 years?] capital of Israel".

All in the name of keeping Israel 'Jewish'. At least Israel will be racially pure. Wait... where have I heard that before?

Some people will undoubtedly get themselves in a tizz about any comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. I'm not saying Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany, after all they've killed thousands of innocent civilians not millions, so they're not in the same league yet. But their thinking is remarkably similar; as I said they are both product of nineteen century nationalist ideologies. Only one was comprehensively discredited 60 years ago and one is still alive and well today.

Arab nationalism and militant Islam are in large part a response to Zionism. I'm not excusing them but at least we know where we stand. When they blow up a bus full of innocent civilians they say they did to avenge their own dead. We know its evil. When the Israelis kill 18 innocent civilians we get the same thing again and again - technical problems... enquiry underway.... or in other instances the classic - 'militants killed' means 10 y/o boys were throwing rocks.

Israelis are dangerous because they like to portray themselves as just like us. They're not.
Posted by eet, Monday, 13 November 2006 8:18:02 PM
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Phillip,
You are right in saying that the fear and hatred of Jews is symbolic rather than based on the actual life experiences of those who hate. This is true both here and in the middle east. If Jews are uncomfortable in the Diaspora they will seek a home where they are comfortable. This is unavoidable.
Posted by vivy, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 7:02:35 AM
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A good attempt.

To add my two pennyworth to this may I make three points.
If the Arabs have hated the West and their propaganda has been so directed consider how the west views Israel in its media. These have been analysed by Philo and Berry in Bad News From Israel an academic study which cannot be refuted merely by saying the Glasgow University media researchers are biased, much as Juan Cole is targeted over Iraq. UN compliance, a big point when we wished Saddam gone is poor. American protection at the UN large. Israel has not signed the NPT has WMD’s, as with Saddam supplied by the West, no worries! They are a democracy, one with a two calss system.

Secondly Zionist aspirations for a homeland are pre Balfour. The land was assumed, as was Australia, to be empty or perhaps inhabited by a few savages, again like Australia.

Thirdly reading the diary of Israeli second prime minister Moshe Sharett 1954-55 shows that being the put upon party in the Arab Israeli dispute was a propaganda ploy added when necessary like German invasion of Poland by provocation and deception Camp David were grounded in perceived threatsto Israeli security.

Fourthly right at the start the West, America in particular threw their weight behind Israel which would not have survived otherwise, maybe part of the dispute with Russia but only part the support had political ramifications at home and still does.

May I make one more point finding I have 100 words left?

The consequences of mistreatment are major and have a long history an idea considered by Johnson in “Blowback”. Palestinians do remember a psychological hurdle to resolution including reparation for lost land and its potential production as well as wealth represented by home
Posted by untutored mind, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 9:15:37 AM
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To bust optimism right definitions might be used to: both the Jews and non-Jews of Palestine are PALESTINIANS.

Therefore, segregating the Arabs of Palestine from the Jews is not so new idea at all.

Recent world provides a significant amount of info on similar attempts of segregation and appartheid in the Balkans, Sudan, Rwanda and modern multicultural Australia definitely.
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 14 November 2006 11:55:58 AM
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Dear Chad
we can argue Ibn Ishaq another time... quite busy right now.
I'll just make one point though, his work is used as a basis for some Islamic law no ? (In Sunni tradition) He is also the earliest work.
There are plenty more. If you say he contradictst he Quran..I ask "Where" ? (2 simple examples will suffice)

I have a theory about the Palestinian problem and lets see if you confirm it :)

1/ If the Palestinians were offered Land.. of equal value and productivity as that which they lost, but not in Israel, (but perhaps nearby) Lets say Jordan for example only.

2/ They were not offered any concession on Jerusalem, which will from that point on be forever regarded as Jewish/Israeli land and posession....

How would the Palestinians react and why ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 1:42:40 PM
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Philip Mendes makes many assertions.

1. He asserts anti-zionism is a preserve of the left. I'm not a leftie and I oppose Israel's zionist expansion. Some Jewish people also express opposition to such policy.

2. He eronoeusly lays the blame for the failure of the Camp David 2000 and Taba summit at the feet of the Palestinians. He ignores Arafat's rejection of some of the Israeli proposals and that Israel's final proposal was never presented because Barak lost the election and his final proposal never had the opportunity to be presented.

3. He disingenously insuinates the Camp David 2000 and Taba summits drew boundaries at 'roughly the pre-1967 Green Line borders'. They were not, not in any Israeli proposal or intended proposals ... then or since.

4. He ignores the peace proposal from the Arab League when he says 'the Palestinians seemed unable to separate their justifiable demand for a state from their ideological demand for the return of 1948 refugees to the Jewish state' and 'Palestinian demands for a right of return'. He then lists this as a Palestinian barrier to peace. One they seemingly have overcome.

5. He talks only of
i. 'roughly the pre-1967 Green Line borders',
ii. 'proposals ... went far closer to meeting minimum Palestinian aspirations for a contiguous and sovereign state.'
iii. 'proposals went a long way towards defining the parameters of a reasonable two-state solution.'
He never ever ackniowledges all the occupied territories need to be returned.

6. He asserts 'a Palestinian state may be a prerequisite for peace'. He ignores the fact it is seen as essential in all Palestinian claims and UN resolutions.

7. Finally he ignores the fact the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas and it's election manifesto omitted the demand for the destruction of Israel.

8. Finally he throws in the furphy about Islamic influence of Palestine ... yet ignores the influence of the fundamentalist religion of most Israelis.

There are others, but I think you'll get the drift of the intent of the article.

This article and it's unsupported assertions require much more in-depth work.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 1:52:04 PM
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Chad

What about the 700,000 or so Jews who escaped from ill treatment in Arab lands? Many of these ancient Jewish communities predated Islam and the Arab invasions by hundreds of years. (eg Egypt). Have they no rights?

My statement about the Middle Eastern origins of almost half the Jewish population of Israel is always overlooked or denied by the Israel haters because it damages their preconceptions. It also focuses on Islamic Arab nationalism.

eet

What laws has Israel implemented openly discriminating against Arab Israelis based on race and religion? A nice attack but how is it true?

You make comparisons with Germany. I have to tell you that Sir John Monash, an Australian was a Zionist but was the most significant of all generals in the battle against Germany. Jewish soldiers gave their lives in the defence of Australia in both wars. The Jews in Israel supported the allies during the war often with their lives. How dare you suggest that Israelis are not like us.

And to all of you.

When did a pair of Jewish evangelists last knock on your door trying to convert you or a Rabbi last make a statement in a foreign language criticising the behaviour or dress of other Australians?

Are you aware that the mobile phone and the Pentium chip owe mush of their development to Israelis?

And if you want to adopt the Jewish faith discuss it with a friendly Rabbi. You can but you would be expected to make an effort there are no instant conversions. DNA analysis shows clearly that it is by no means an exclusive club. The point is that Judaism teaches that all good people can receive divine blessing regardless of your faith.

Many of you are judging Judaism from too many Hollywood films.
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 5:13:50 PM
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keith

You make a lot of good points but one I do not understand.

"Finally he throws in the furphy about Islamic influence of Palestine ... yet ignores the influence of the fundamentalist religion of most Israelis."

Most Israelis are not religious. There are a few conservatives and the Israeli propòrtional representation system lets minorities have the balance of power, but as I say these are minorities. A major irritation yes but a majority, no way.

Anyone in Israel is entirely free in law to change their religion to anything they want as often as they want or to have no religion at all. This applies equaly to Jews, Muslims, Christians, Seventh Day Adventists exactly as in Australia.

What the Israelis do want is a state where the majority are of Jewish thinking in the same way as in Australia the majority are of Christian thinking. This gives them some security for their ways. Just like us they do not want control by fundamentalists of any kind.

Like Australia, Thailand, Philipines and Europe they do not want Islam to dominate, and gven the 20th century track record of many governments which claim (no doubt falsely) to be Islamic would you blame them?
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 8:51:39 PM
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Maybe, I had already somewhere on these pages mentioned a difference between Australia and Israel, Logic: Terra Nullious assumption is a good excuse for at the time annihilating an indigenous population of a strange foreign land while creating own political Christian entity, as Palestine is a historic place of the Jewish nation having nurtured the Bible stories of Christ as the Arabs never ever had got an own state there during all the history recorded.
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 14 November 2006 11:55:20 PM
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Boaz,

Your suggestion to the Palestinians isn't that ethnic cleansing?
Is this another "Jesus teaching" that only you know about?

Your suggestion is a mirror image of the Iranian president suggesting jews to relocate to Germany or the US.

Professional help and 'true Orthodox Christian' counselling is the answer to your problems.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 10:02:25 AM
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A talk of a physical volume of a land for the Arabs of Palestine is just distraction from a core issue which is annihilating ALL differenet-the Jews, other outside folks, own Arabic Christians.

That is how it works, BOAZ and Co.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 15 November 2006 12:10:03 PM
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BOAZ_David
Where in the Quran? You made allegations, find out the facts.
As for your theory; if you were offered an equal value of land but not in Australia (but perhaps nearby) let’s say Indonesia for example only.
How would the YOU react and why?

Logic
Egyptian religion was based on polytheism. A 2006 bioanthropological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians by Prof. Joel Irish shows dental traits characteristic of indigenous North Africans and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian populations.

According to the earliest report of Palestine, the British census of 1914 counted 791,000 in Palestine, comprising 731,000 Arabs and 60,000 Jews.
During the war of 1948; the formation of the State of Israel, the UN (UNRWA) estimates that 711,000 Palestinians fled the country.
In 2000 the UN reported there were 3,737,494 Palestinian Refugees, 1,211,480 are living in Refugee Camps.
ref. http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html
Posted by Chad, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 3:49:51 PM
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Chad

Jews were already in Egypt during the Roman Empire and probably a long time earlier. At the time Islam did not exist and the Arabs had not yet arrived.

I am not disputing the numbers who left Israel but roughly equal numbers of Jews left discrimination in Islamic nations where they had often lived for centuries before Islam. The departing Jews are no longer refugees but have developed new lives in other countries including Israel and some have become good Australian citizens.

Questions

Why have the Palestinians not achieved the same? Every other post war refugee group - the Germans from Poland and the Sudeten Lands, etc. etc. the Hindus from Pakistan have all succeeded.

Why are Jews criticized for settling in Israel while the armies of Mahomet are not.

Why have Israeli critics failed to acknowledge the difference in treatment between Christians and Muslims in Israel who have legal rights, votes and parliamentary representation while Christians and Jews in the Islamic Middle Eastern nations have not?
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 6:50:56 PM
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logic

Here is a history of Jewish immigration to Israel

First Aliyah (1882-1903)
Between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine, the majority belonging to the Hibbat Zion and Bilu movements came from Eastern Europe.

Second Aliyah (1904-1914)
Between 1904 and 1914, 40,000 Jews immigrated mainly from Russia to Palestine following pogroms and outbreaks of anti-semitism in that country.

Third Aliyah (1919-1923)
Between 1919 and 1923, 40,000 Jews, mainly from Eastern Europe arrived in the wake of: The First World War; the British conquest of Palestine; the establishment of the Mandate; and the Balfour Declaration.

Fourth Aliyah (1924-1929)
First Aliyah: Biluim wearing traditional Arab headdress, the keffiyeh.
Between 1924 and 1929, 82,000 Jews arrived, many as a result of anti-semitism in Poland and Hungary. The immigration quotas of the United States kept Jews out.

Fifth Aliyah (1929-1939)
Between 1929 and 1939, with the rise of Nazism in Germany, a new wave of 250,000 immigrants arrived, the majority of these, 174,000, arrived between 1933-1936, after which increasing restrictions on immigration by the British made immigration clandestine and illegal, called Aliyah Bet. The Fifth Aliyah was again driven mostly from Eastern Europe as well as professionals, doctors, lawyers and professors, from Germany.

Before the Zionist Movement both Arabs & Jews were living peacefully in Palestine.

To answer your question as to why Palestinians (Arabs) haven’t succeeded I refer you to the Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 16, 1916. Then I ask you is it a coincidence that most Middle Eastern Nations have oppressive regimes and are underdeveloped?
Posted by Chad, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 7:33:31 PM
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logic,
"How dare you suggest that Israelis are not like us."

We don't kill children.

"A total of 52 Palestinian children were killed in 2005. Overall, 819 children have been killed since the beginning of the second intifada in 2000, according to UNICEF statistics."

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=55922&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=OPT
Posted by eet, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 8:28:38 PM
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Chad

You still ignore the Jews who left Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Iran etc etc. Perhaps you prefer to forget them as they pose a problem to the Arab view of the world. Fact is still that roughly half of the Jewish population of Israel is of middle eastern descent.

While Jews were often living peacefully with the Muslims they were given inferior legal and political rights. In Israel by contrast there is no legal impediment to a Muslim Arab citizen becoming Prime Minister or President or Chief Justice but in practice they would need to gain the confidence and support of a majority. It may not be possible for an Arab to achieve this status in the present climate but it is at least possible in law and this is important. It makes it possible in the future.

In how many other Middle Eastern countries is it legally possible for a non Muslim to achieve the highest office?

Regarding the Sykes-Picot Agreement this was in 1916. What was the Arab world doing during the 17th 18th and 19th centuries? And leaving this aside why did it not follow the tigers in Asia - India, Thailand, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan after the decline of colonial power. Do you blame Israel or the US for that?

Eet

Were Israeli children not killed by suicide bombs and missiles aimed deliberately at civilian populations? And when Hezbollah hid amongst civilian populations when they fired their missiles did they not consider that some of there own children might be killed as the Israelis justifiably tried to stop them? (Refer HRW reports and the UN Aid Chief).
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 9:19:55 PM
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Chad, perhaps your info has been extracted from appropriate notebooks published in Ramallah, because in other places folks know that the Arabs killed the Jews and vice versa in THEIR districts during all the history recorded, and “before the Zionist Movement both Arabs & Jews were living peacefully in Palestine” is a wish only.

One must not be involved in special diplomatic studies to find it out in popular books on Jerusalem and Middle East, written by envoys and travelers upon last couple of centuries at least.

The Arabs of Palestine have been segregated and kept apart from local brothers and sisters around the Middle East due to sly Islamist politics to create and manipulate an agree force of ready-for-everything hungry lumpen, a delusive image of a world Jew – bloodsucker of Muslim kids – is a very target to kill instantly.

Shockingly, most of the Arabs and Muslims have never ever a live Jew seen in their lives also TV and Internet help visualize anti-Semitic propaganda well even in a “civilized first class world”.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 16 November 2006 8:50:42 PM
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I have said enough.
The facts are evident in state of the world today, particularly in the Middle East.
I recommend you read THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION.
Posted by Chad, Thursday, 16 November 2006 9:05:52 PM
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Chad

Are you aware of the history behind THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION?

It's as a total fake made up by the Russion secret police and based on a satirical pamphlet written about Napoleon III. The original didn't even mention Jews.

Do a Google and read some reputable discussions of the protocols. There was no such thing as the Elders of Zion let alone the protocols. Stop being so gullible.
Posted by logic, Thursday, 16 November 2006 9:43:47 PM
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I can regret myself only that this country represents believers in “Protocols of the Zion Minders” predominantly.

"Main Kamph" is not less powerfull and eventually definitely appreciated by Nazis from all over the world and their well established offspring locally.
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 17 November 2006 12:34:31 PM
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Chad: I hope you are joking. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is probably one of the most vile racist documents ever published, and has been reasonably labelled "A Warrant for Genocide" given it directly inspired a number of the key perpetrators of the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry.

So please reassure me you are kidding.

Philip
Posted by radical phil, Friday, 17 November 2006 4:24:13 PM
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I feel you are joking, Philip: racist anti-Semitic attitudes in Australia are unknown for only those non-Jews really convinced that Protocols are forgery.
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 19 November 2006 12:45:47 AM
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MichaelK

I did not fully understand your last post but the evidence against the Protocols is massive. Line by line comparisons show them to be an altered plagiarism of an antisemitic German novel which was itself a plagiarism of a document by the Frenchman Joli which in the original was a satire on Napolean and nothing whatever to do with Jews. It disappeared after learned research showed it to be a complete FAKE. The research was largely done by scholars who are not Jewish.

It was released (and probably written) by the Czar's secret police and regurgitated by such fine institutions as the Klu Klax Klan and later the SS. In more recent years some extreme Islamic inststutions from the middle east have re-released it along with the medieval ritual blood libel and Nazi anti-semitic cartoons. These groups are so incompetent that they are even not capable of inventing their own lies.

Look up Wikopaedia for a start and follow their links.

As a descendent of 19th century Jewish imigrants I am able to tell you that anti-semitism in this country is largely a post war import and not from the British Isles. Read some books on Australian Jewish history. It started with the First Fleet.
Posted by logic, Sunday, 19 November 2006 10:04:01 AM
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Actually, I comprehend your message as politely informing some native speakers with the UK natural links about a lasted centuries originally anti-Semitic provocative opus known as “The Protocols”.

It seems, there was already an international investigation into this “work” and results were already embedding the very lie of this “historical essay”.

Mere anti-Semitism, that is a core issue of both initially denying qualifications at local universities for mainstream professional activities in a number of areas and rejecting already established worldwide acclaimed professionals from Jewish background especially by local “equial opportunities” employers on factual merits of “Australian multiculturalism” might only be leveled with institutional xenophobia underlying all walks of life in Australia.

I am not wondering at your attempt of washing upon this very founding issue as even Iranian Jews are very supporters of Iranian president and his nuke activities according to their MP-Jew airing of such a support and approval in any place on a globe he visited.

Therefore, I do understand an essence of this particular "After Lebanon..." developments.
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 19 November 2006 11:50:12 PM
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MichaelK

I think we may be at cross purposes here, you have much of interest to say but I am often having difficulties in getting your point.

I am surprised that you mention the Iranian Jews as supporters of their President. According to the Jewish Virtual Library they have limited freedoms and are unable to emigrate.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

"Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community."

"At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel."

I hardly think that they would come out in opposition to the government.

In this country the success of Jewish Australians puts the lie to any suggestions of restrictions. The only limitations I can think of are positions like Catholic Priests or Vicars or Immans.
Posted by logic, Monday, 20 November 2006 11:28:11 AM
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It is of no surprise that you, Logic, is short of realities of Jewish Diaspora on broad merits, Australia inclusively. And <“According to the Jewish Virtual Library they have limited freedoms and are unable to emigrate.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html” > just testimony to your confusion as inability go abroad is not synonymous to supporting a national government as advertised officially by Iranian Jewish PM. There are synagogues and Jewish cultural stuff in Iran as well.

Your “In this country the success of Jewish Australians puts the lie to any suggestions of restrictions” is a mere propaganda migration to Australia in order becoming a paid-in-hand chip labour locally – and that is the most lucky those being employed in “a local community”.

Should I wonder on hatred demonstrated by young Australian Arabs towards co-citizens if not belonging to Anglo-tribe makes anyone automatically inferior in Australia?
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 20 November 2006 12:01:19 PM
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MichaelK

I am hardly short of diaspora experience. After 65 years since my birth in Australia I have also lived for several years in London and Zurich all of the time in equal contact with the Jewish and general communities.

I would say that the threat of the death penalty as applied to some Iranian Jews would be a distinct damper to criticism of the government.

Regarding Jews in Australia I would hardly imagine that Sir John Monash, Sir Isaac Isaacs and Sir Zelman Cowan would have considered themselves paid-in-hand chip labour. Have you any idea how many Jewish Doctors, Surgeons, Cardiologists, Dentists Pharmacists, QC's and Professors there are in this country? Are you aware that in colonial Sydney Town over half the publicans were Jewish? Or that the old Aussie expression "to put the Moz on someone" comes from Yiddish? Even the term cobber may possibly have Yiddish origins according to ANU linguistics department.

This sounds like successful integration to me, yet they have all retained a distinct Jewish flavour to their Australian life.

When my niece married a boy of Irish Catholic background all the guests joined in both sraeli circle dancing amd Irish jigs. Guiness was drunk by both sides. And they all loved it. And all have equal chance of being Prime Minister.
Posted by logic, Monday, 20 November 2006 4:52:40 PM
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Logic, I am sick and tyred of tales surrounding “Australian multiculturalism” and so-called Jewish achievements in Australia: Jews are marginated humiliated hatred and not being employed in general fields such as engineering etc much more extensively than others non-Anglo-Saxes, non-Christians.

“When my niece married a boy of Irish Catholic background all the guests joined in both sraeli circle dancing amd Irish jigs. Guiness was drunk by both sides. And they all loved it. And all have equal chance of being Prime Minister.“ – so, will nephew’s kids be Jewish even formally? Assimilate or perish is not only Aussie way -The Myers is a classical stuff- of a Jewish existence.

Since Monash and half-ancient Nossak-any mainstream Jewish achievement upon last minimum thirty years could be mentioned locally? Lawyers and doctors on service of own community? And some exported to the USA or leaving for good to Israel – is it not example of waste opportunities in Australia? Although Thrope is from Greek background, he is the latest example of. With all his astonishing Olympic triumphs.

Leaving in your world of the White Australia priorities of the fifties hardly heard of the next – to – date latest achievement of an Australian democracy when parliamentarians have rejected a government proposal to raid houses and seize possessions of government subsidies recipients that is 2 million families.
So, police is overbusy with anti-terror activities and Centrelink case managers could not be prepared in short time – that is a reason only for!

But the most interesting is how some SBS ETHNIC radio programs provided this information where instead explaining that EVERYONE on hand-outs list can de facto be arbitrary placed into a suspect, raided and striped of goods those who “not sincerely looking for jobs ” were mentioned.

Both you and me live in different countries, while going to the same pool boxes on Saturday. Even we do, and what about Wong, Ivan, Abu or some other less white Australia's co-inhabitants?

How dare one judge prospective in the Middle East if consuming info from opposites only?

Maybe, www.arabsforisrael.com is of some reasonable interest
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 23 November 2006 11:27:42 AM
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MichaelK

I hardly know here you are coming from or where you are going but you harbour a bitterness and I don't know why or by whom.

"Jews are marginated humiliated hatred and not being employed in general fields such as engineering etc much more extensively than others non-Anglo-Saxes, non-Christians."

I certainly don't feel marginalised or humiliated, and I am in fact an engineer. The culture of my ancestors certainly has not affected my career.

The many Jewish Doctors and Lawyers and some Judges are by no means ministering only to other Jews. Probably you don't recognise most Jews when you see them. A Doctor has no reason to anounce their religion to their patients. And contrary to some popular public opinion there is no such thing as looking Jewish. Did you know that Peter Sellers, Harold Pinter, Richard Rogers, Arthur Miller and Johann Strauss were Jewish?

There is some emigration of Australians to Israel but there is also professional movement the other way. It may well be that it is Israel which suffers the brain drain. Has anyone seriously studied it?

Excuse me for following up a sideline to the issue but you started this direction.
Posted by logic, Friday, 24 November 2006 9:01:59 PM
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Not “a culture of my ancestors certainly has not affected my career” but my very biological background, of which appearance hardly contradicts you suggesting “no reason to anounce their religion to”, is an obstacle the most.

Speaking of a last war in Lebanon, Muslims would like to live worldwide not being treated like Jews in Australia –and this place is not Malaysia or Indonesia anyway, which helps me a little anyway.

So this conversation is hardly outside off topic.
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 27 November 2006 11:59:06 AM
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"Muslims would like to live worldwide not being treated like Jews in Australia".

What do you mean?
How do you think Jews in Australia are treated?
Posted by logic, Monday, 27 November 2006 9:54:42 PM
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Philip Mendes, though I might quibble with a few of the details, I largely concur with your analysis of the situation.

To your list of "Israeli negotiators and moderates", you can add the clearly stated views of former President Clinton, a number of his aides (most notably Dennis Ross), and even -- though it requires some reading between the lines -- some of the Palestinian negotiators. All understood that the plans put forward by Israel and the United States were serious and far-reaching, and that Arafat's refusal to negotiate or even to provide a counteroffer would have tragic consequences for years, and perhaps decades, to come.

I’m not going to comment on most of the deeply bigoted, anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, anti-Israel, anti-Arab junk here. (Did Chad really recommend “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”? Is Leigh’s solution really the elimination of Islam? Did Eet really say “Israelis are dangerous because they like to portray themselves as just like us. They're not”??)

Just a few remarks:

Eet, Israel never tried to be “racially pure”. Thank God we’re not “just like” you. And BTW, you do kill children.

Bazz, et al., the problem is not “unsolvable” but any solution is necessarily imperfect and requires compromise on all sides.

Jan_Sydney, the American and Israeli proposal, rejected by the Palestinians, included a $30 billion fund for compensation, repatriation, resettlement, and rehabilitation of Palestinian refugees, who would have a right of return to their own state.

Yes, Keith, the borders proposed at Camp David were close to those of 1967; those proposed at Taba, even closer. See http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm

No, Chad, Arabs & Jews were not living peacefully in Palestine before the Zionist movement. And to the extent that they were, this so-called “peaceful” era (under the thumb of Turkish colonial rule) could also be termed “before the Palestinian Arab nationalist movement”.
Posted by sganot, Monday, 27 November 2006 11:32:03 PM
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If you, logic, still ask me of my opinion regarding a treatment of non-Christians, non-Anglo-Celts in Australia the Jews are significantly among them, more substantial geopolitical issues might surely avoid your grasp.

Surely, sganot, Israel is not “racially pure”-I’ve found the following in Internet, any comment?

http://cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/1_boy.htm -A Menashe (Indian repatriates)Kid
http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/2_gir.htm -A Beautiful Jewish Girl
http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/7_russ.htm
-Russians Jews Arrive
http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/10_usa.htm
-American paratroopers
http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/12.htm -Many Jews-Good and Various etc etc et
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 28 November 2006 6:31:14 PM
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MichaelK,

Your English is not native, and I'm afraid many of your messages are difficult to understand. You may likewise be misunderstanding what I and others have written.

I wrote that "Israel never tried to be 'racially pure'." Thus, when you say that Israel "is not 'racially pure' ", we seem to be in agreement. This "racial purity" business is a foreign concept, with no objective meaning, value, or interest to us.

And by the way, Palestinian Arabs are likewise not "racially pure" and have little interest in the concept. They too came here from various continents, including some who arrived from Africa in the 19th and early 20th century as slaves and soldiers (see http://members.tripod.com/~yajaffar/african.html ). And today, like with the Jews, there is a substantial Palestinian Arab diaspora. Yes, there is some racism in both Jewish and Arab societies, but hopefully this is limited to the fringes.

The pictures you sent illustrate some of the "racial variation" of Jews who are being repatriated to their homeland.

A few comments:

1) http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/10_usa.htm does not show "American paratroopers" but Americans landing (i.e., immigrating to Israel).

2) Where http://www.cursorinfo.co.il/photo/2006/11/21/alya/ (to which you did not link) says "children to Menashe of the profit"[?], the intended meaning seems to be "descendents of the prophet Menashe", (i.e., "proroka", not "profit"). This is also not accurate, since Menashe (Manasseh) was not a prophet, but nevermind...
Posted by sganot, Tuesday, 28 November 2006 10:38:30 PM
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I need no your speculations of my English because at least of reality which is my scientific engineering works / articles on, for instance, political issues written by me and published by respectable US/UK and others sources, even in Australia, in English particularly.
Eventually, these opuses are understandable round the globe by willing to understand, sganot. And be sure, sganot, I do practically understand xenophobic racist Australia much better than the in-mere-colonial-stupidity-grown-up factual slaves of English feodals well established in Down Under.

There is no such thing as “Palestinians” but the Arabs of Palestine of whom overseas relatives worldwide are blood-linked Arabs simply. Quite clear, Arabs might live in any Muslim Arabic state where local sheikh or any other princeling allows them an entry in.

If Arabs of Palestine are not welcome in the Arab world last sixty years denying them and generations of their offspring citizenships and assimilation, factually pushing them to kill the Jews, fight Israel and terrorise law obedient citizens round the globe, the Jewish State is in no more charge for accommodating these people than Muslim states are for both them and restitutions over expelling millions Jews stripped from possessions surely.

Pictures were accompanied with translations from URLs provided, that is why American alliya photo was titled “American Paratroopers”.

Allowing Menashe in Israel was a presidential decision initiated controversy among orthodoxy in Israel as understood from media.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 29 November 2006 11:30:23 AM
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MichaelK,

You said:

“There is no such thing as “Palestinians” but the Arabs of Palestine of whom overseas relatives worldwide are blood-linked Arabs simply”

This is where your version of history is opposite of the rest of the world. The country partitioned in 1948 was “Palestine”. Palestine was occupied by Palestinians who were arabs (Muslims, Christians), non arabs (assyrians, etc..) and Jews. In fact, Jews of Palestine were less than 5% of the whole population up to 1910).
The migration of European Jews and the push to create a separate Jewish state to avoid increasing friction between the armed refugees and the existing residents of the land.
Palestinians have an identity, a country and a home and most of them refuse to leave their homes despite the efforts to drive them out. They are not ‘arabs’ of Palestine. Even Arabs of Palestine lived their before European Jews.

The 1948 partition created a room for a new state “Israel” on the land of Palestine with the majority of the land to remain as Palestine for the Palestinians.

I think the 'one state' philosophy either by Palestinians or Israelis is a thing of the past. Reality is there should be a 2 states solutions.

Peace,

T
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 29 November 2006 2:38:09 PM
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Fellow_Human

"The migration of European Jews and the push to create a separate Jewish state ..."

How many times do I have to tell you guys that there was also migration of Jews from Islamic middle eastern states into Israel. In fact around half of the Jews in Israel are descended from these middle eastern Jews. The communities in Egypt, Iran and Iraq in fact started long before Mahommet's birth, long before the Caliphate.

The Jews in Egypt were denied passports and in all these countries given inferior citizenship rights. The total number of displaced middle eastern Jews roughly equals the number of displaced Palestinian Arabs.

This does damage your argument a little, sorry.
Posted by logic, Wednesday, 29 November 2006 4:53:02 PM
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As understood,a two-state solution is gradually winning understanding of even the most intolerant to this idea from its very start-although,for different reasons, Fellow_Human,I share your opinion reflecting on this issue from the time this idea was “anti-Israeli”.

A deliberation of a problem is understandably common on different walks of Internet, and I had been informed that my avoidance of expression “Palestinians” as an ambiguous vogue definition (yourself, you told of Palestine as a place shared by the Arabs and Jews, so Israelis are Palestinians rightfully) is historically correct even from viewpoint of international legislative wording: the UN resolution on re-instatement of Israel and creating an Arab state in Palestine referred to the folks as “the Jews” and “the Arabs of Palestine”.

Personally, I like this information because it has once again proved that not-so-sophisticated English is not an obstacle for making right conclusions, which substantially contradicts pan-Australian opinion on inferiority of speaking the different accents.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 29 November 2006 11:47:03 PM
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MichaelK, my comments about your English were not meant as an insult. The fact is, I sometimes find it difficult to understand. As for Australian attitudes toward non-English speakers, I have no knowledge of or part in this. I’m not Australian.

I disagree with your dismissal of Palestinian Arab identity. More importantly, the people about whom you write disagree. Cultural/ethnic/national identity isn’t a science, and there is no “right answer” somehow objectively determined by history or other factors.

I realize that “American paratroopers” was an attempt to translate the caption, but it was a mistranslation.

As far as I know, the president of Israel was not involved in any decision to permit, encourage, or assist the immigration of Bnei Menashe. Also, I am Orthodox and haven’t heard of any “controversy among orthodoxy” about the community or its immigration to Israel.

Of course every government decision and public policy generates some opposition, but there seems little reason why Orthodox Judaism would not embrace the Bnei Menashe: Orthodox rabbis and organizations were instrumental in encouraging ties between the Bnei Menashe community and Israel; one of the Orthodox Chief Rabbis of Israel recognized the community’s claim of historic ties to Judaism; most members of Bnei Menashe are undergoing formal Orthodox conversion to Judaism, either in India or Israel; and most Bnei Menashe who have immigrated to Israel have settled in Orthodox communities.
Posted by sganot, Friday, 1 December 2006 2:56:28 PM
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It is fine people from round a globe participate in this Australian forum.

Few hours ago I was once again racially abused in Melbourne bus-by a driver. I would say that this not-so-white fellow is not exceptional abuser on this particular service in a country where MATESHIP rules. Maybe, it is funny to hear but as I noticed abuses in local buses usually occur initiated by drivers only and in this case their identity is completely irrelevant – passengers’ appearances are the most, although in my case I am not an Orthodox Jew or any other expressing faith openly.

I understand that meaning of messages sometimes does not reflect simply reader’s mentality that is why the same info comprehended sometimes differently if even provided by professionals worldwide.

What I try to explain, definitions of tasks and issues are extremely important not in the math only, and “Palestinians” to me are people leaving in Palestine of which the Jews are rightful co-inhabitants and the Jewish state constituents.

What is utterly clear and from your post, info reflects sometimes reality very specifically in Internet uniting same-speaking people from the same upbringing from different countries recently, sharing different news from their different countries re-translated in multilingual sites originating even from Israeli as it was a case with URL mentioning “American Paratroopers” not in English.

No offence, but humor is last thing different readers could catch.

SGANOT, I read different info from different sites in different languages from round a glob, and info on Menashem was provided on non-Hebrew Israeli site. Moreover, there are Hasidim in New York very much involved in Indian case, and their organization “The King David Foundation” was at the time-at least 10 years ago- registered NGO.
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 1 December 2006 10:04:46 PM
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MichaelK, this time I barely understood any of your post. Again, that's not mean as an insult, it's just a fact.

Not-so-white fellow?
Mateship?
Reader’s mentality?
Rightful co-inhabitants?
Uniting same-speaking people from the same upbringing from different countries recently?
URL mentioning “American Paratroopers” not in English?
Humor is last thing different readers could catch?

Also, I am not aware of any New York Hasidic "King David Foundation", or any American Hasidic group active in support of or opposition to the immigration of Bnei Menashe to Israel.
Posted by sganot, Sunday, 3 December 2006 7:05:17 AM
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Well, you, SGANOT, once again highlighted a substantial problem grounded with different mentalities and by itself grounding much miscommunication and hatred in the Middle East particularly: different people understand the same issues differently.

If “mateship” is out of common use somewhere, could you, please, try “Australian Dinkum Dictionary”, and URL mentioned was an address of a non-English-language-written-Israeli-site if opened, from which “American Paratroopers” had been translated. More explanations?

In any case, willingness to understand is a personal problem of the willing to understand, and being in your messages omitted addressing xenophobia as a real core issue underlying too many problems round a globe is probably your, SGANOT, position as understood from context of your posts, shich is the most substantial for this discussion.

"The King David Foundadtion" was established by Indian Jews in NY more than 10 years ago, and since than I have no clue of further substantial develpments of this NGO of which a very goal was helping the Indian Jewry.
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 4 December 2006 11:57:45 AM
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MichaelK,

1) "American paratroopers" was your mistranslation of "Americansky desant". Paratrooper=desantnik. If you still don't get it, never mind. It isn't important.

2) I don't understand your third paragraph at all. Yes, xenophobia is a real issue, and underlies many problems aound the globe.

3) First you seemed to indicate that the immigration of Bnei Menashe was opposed by, or at least controversial to, Orthodox Jews. When I said that I'm Orthodox, never heard about such a controversy, and it doesn't make sense, you responded that "there are Hasidim in New York very much involved in Indian case" through their "King David Foundation".

Now it turns out to be an organization of Indian Jews (of which I still see no evidence or Internet presense), almost certainly not Hassidic (are there more than a handful of Indian Hassidim in all the world?), and apparently active in support of the Bnei Menashe, who also come from India.

So who are the Orthodox Jews for whom the Bnei Menashe are supposedly "controversial"?

Maybe we should wrap up this discussion, which after all has nothing to do with the "After Lebanon" article.
Posted by sganot, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 12:12:27 AM
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Hi Logic,

Thanks for the correction re Jewish migrants from the middle east. I wasn't aware they made 50% of the population.
Don't worry about 'weakening my argument', facts are facts and I believe we are all seeking truth and justice no matter where it sits.

MichaelK,

The point I was trying to make is the sense of identity around 'citizenship by will'. If Palestinians want to restore their country rather than becoming 'arabs of Israel' then its their choice and we must respect that and help them achieve it. Its hypocricy to say that 'Jews of Palestine' have the right to re-instate Israel but deny the same right to the others.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 2:13:32 PM
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Fellow_Human, cc: Logic, MichaelK

~73% of Israelis are native-born. Most, whether native or immigrant, are of MidEastern descent. ~32% of Israelis are of European-American origin; the rest are from Israel, other parts of Asia, and Africa –mainly from the MidEast.

Why does this matter? It sounds like denial, dismissal, and delegitimization of the presence of European-American Jews – in general, the Ashkenazim. Jews from Casablanca (4000 km from Jerusalem) and Algiers (2984 km) are OK, but from Bucharest (1606 km) and Odessa (1678 km) are not? If your ancestors came from Iran in 1980, you're OK, but if from Lithuania in 1780, you're not?

Those who protest European Jewish immigration tend to posit a close biological/genetic tie between Arabs and Sefardim, which Ashkenazim supposedly lack. It’s a false argument. As I wrote in another thread, overwhelming evidence shows that both Ashkenazim and Sefardim are closely related to Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, etc. One study indicates that Sefardim are more closely related to Europeans than are Ashkenazim, and concludes that "Ashkenazim are not closely related to their Central and Eastern European neighbors or to any group outside the Middle East or Near East." There is also evidence that Ashkenazim are more closely related to Palestinian Arabs and other MidEasterners than are Sefardim, though the two Jewish groups are closest to each other, and both are closer to other MidEasterners and Mediterraneans than to Northern/Eastern Europeans.

Re “citizenship of will”, the main problem is the opposite of what you describe.

Since the 1930s, most Jews have supported partition – a compromise that would allow both sides to fulfill their aspirations for statehood on part of their homeland, rather than forcing one to live as a minority under the other’s rule. Most Palestinian Arabs have rejected partition. This pattern repeated itself from the 1936 Peel Commission to the 1947 UN Partition Plan to the 2000/2001 Camp David/Taba negotiations. Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was another step designed to encourage coexistence. The Palestinian response was to elect a Muslim-fundamentalist government that seeks to continue “armed struggle” until all of Israel is “liberated”, i.e., destroyed.
Posted by sganot, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 11:53:15 PM
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Sganot,

No English dictionary provide a word “desantnik” as an English word-and translating it directly into “Special Marine Force” sounds to me much more stupid and rude –in general context, than “paratrooper”. It makes me wondering why you have omitted an article from the same Israeli site in the same language provided where a story of Menashem and controversy them surrounding have been provided?
If you were able to read this in origin, I am once more wondering why do you try to explain that there are “Indian Jews” but not Hasidim from India? To further broaden your knowledge of a topic I would like to inform that this New York NGO was headed by a Rabbi of India, as he called himself, he had come from India and those who I knew from this UN-registered NGO were Hasidim-American and Indian-born. So, no point to continue, but to read something more close to a topic:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881816798&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And I do not catch this math: “~73% of Israelis are native-born. Most, whether native or immigrant, are of MidEastern descent. ~32% of Israelis are of European-American origin”

Fellow Human,

I do support establishment of a state of the Arabs of Palestine, but I try understanding your playing with wording of “Palestinians want to restore their country rather than becoming 'arabs of Israel'”: there are the Israeli Arabs and they are free citizens of a free democratic country which is Israel.Such, they can migrate wherever they want-as they and their fellow Jewish co-citizens do recently, in the US or Palestinian Authority, if they pretend not knowing that they are hatred there little less than other Israelis…
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:18:27 AM
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MichaelK,

I don’t know how to represent Cyrillic characters here, so I transliterated the caption “Americansky desant”. It is my understanding that “paratrooper” is actually “desantnik” (again, transliterated into Latin characters). If I am wrong, I apologize. No, I don’t speak Russian.

Special Marine Force? I don’t know where you came up with that. Maybe you think it's "stupid and rude", but it isn't anything I said.

...

I’ve simply never heard of Hassidim from India. Rabbis? Of course! But not Hassidic rabbis. Modern Hassidut is basically a European, Ashkenazi phenomenon. Certainly, individual Jews of Indian origin may have joined one of the Hassidic groups since coming into contact with them. Today, there are individual Chabadniks from Addis Ababa, Breslovers from Yemen, and no doubt some Jews from Moscow who follow Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, so why not a handful of Hassidim from India, too? I've just never heard of any. Well, if such a group exists, thanks for telling me about them :)

Are you sure, though, that you are not confusing Orthodox or religious or traditional or whatever with "Hassidic"?

Re the math, I derived the numbers from the Statistical Abstract of Israel 2006:

~73% of Israelis are native-born: First, I assume that all or nearly all of the 1,358,700 Arab Israelis (see http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st02_01.pdf ) are native born. To these, I add the 3,672,000 Israel-born “Jews and others” (i.e., Jews plus non-Arab Christians and those not classified by religion) (see http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st02_24.pdf ). Altogether, 5,030,700 out of a total population of 6,930,100 (72.6%) are native born.

~32% of Israelis are of European-American origin: First, I assume that no Arab Israelis are of European-American origin. This isn’t quite accurate, but close enough. From http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st02_24.pdf, 2,215,300 “Jews and others” (i.e., 32% of Israel’s total population) are of European-American origin. By the way, this includes 805,500 who are Israel-born Israelis whose fathers were born in Europe-America, plus another 1,409,800 who were themselves born abroad.
Posted by sganot, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 1:57:56 AM
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I think further deliberation of philological meanings as well as whose tsatses are more holy are out of this topic, sganot.

To me, Your clarification of Israeli ethnic statistics testifies significantly to big tasks ahead on a way to a homogenious Israeli society where establishing the outer Arabic state in Palestine is a step in a right direction.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 6 December 2006 5:21:07 PM
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hmmm

I was just giving an opinion I wasn't aware it turning into a
analysts debate on Israeli demography:)
All I am saying be fair to your fellow citizens whether arabs or Jews. I can't see it in Australia that people are living in fancy houses and keeping the remaining part in tents living under a dollar a day.
Its just not human. I lost nterest in the details of how and who did what but 50 years later this scenario is still there.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 8 December 2006 11:45:58 AM
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MichaelK,

1. My description of Chassidut as a European phenomenon generally not found among Indian Jews not a value judgment about anyone’s holiness. I don't regard Chassidim as "holier" than non-Chassidim.

2. I doubt if many Israelis wish for a homogenous society; I certainly don’t. Establishing an Arab state of Palestine is probably a good idea, but not because it will make Israel more homogenous; it won’t.

Fellow_Human,

“Be fair to your fellow citizens” – of course, I agree. But no, this isn't all you said. You said much more, some of which I agree with, and some of which I don’t.

No one in Israel is kept in tents or living on $1 a day. Yes, we have poverty and income gaps, but our situation isn’t so different from yours. While in general, analogies comparing Arab Israelis to the indigenous peoples of colonized lands are inappropriate and unhelpful, here it may be somewhat enlightening.

Among both Aboriginal Australians and Arab Israelis, ~50% live under their countries’ respective poverty lines. In both communities, the poverty rate is ~3X that of the majority population. In both cases, by various measures, average incomes are ~50-67% of the national average. The median income of Aboriginal families is 68% of that of other Australian families. The average salary of Arab Israelis is 71% of that of Jewish Israelis.

In some important ways, Arab Israelis are significantly better off than Aboriginal Australians. For example, the unemployment rate of Aboriginal Australians is ~3X the national rate; that of Arab Israelis is ~1.5X the national rate. I could find no hard data about Aboriginal literacy, but I gather that it’s quite low. The literacy rate among Israeli Arabs is 95% -- about the same as for Israeli Jews. Life expectancy of Aboriginal Australians is ~62 years (17 less than the rest of the population); life expectancy of Arab Israelis is ~77 years (4 less than the rest of the population). Infant mortality among Aboriginal Australians is 13.1 per 1000 births (2.62X the national average); among Arab Israelis, it is 8.5 per 1000 births (1.55X the national average).
Posted by sganot, Friday, 8 December 2006 5:33:48 PM
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Where are you looking at, Fellow Human:
“I can't see it in Australia that people are living in fancy houses and keeping the remaining part in tents living under a dollar a day.”? In Abo’s reservations? Or other similar places round green-all-years park in the cities round Australia?

And who keep whom in Israel in a tent? You mean, forcibly evicted from their houses left in Gaza strip? Or you refer to Arab countries keeping their fellows ascending from Palestine-we discussed it already?

Well, sganot, it one wish having Sganot secure “Establishing an Arab state of Palestine is probably a good idea, but not because it will make Israel more homogenous; it won’t” -it will surely do...
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 8 December 2006 8:41:12 PM
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Sganot,

Thanks for your comment it was informative.
I support the two states solutions and was wondering what do you see as its pros and cons.

Michaelk,

The point I made is to clarify Israeli Plaestinians views on each other since the conflict started between the Arabs and Jewish residents of Palestine. Involving other arab states is not relevant to the discussion in my opinion as it is a secondary role.

Peace,

T
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 11 December 2006 12:16:32 PM
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It is a funny comment, Fellow_Human,"The point I made is to clarify Israeli Plaestinians views on each other since the conflict started between the Arabs and Jewish residents of Palestine", because conflict between the Arabs and the Jews had started from the time biblical and "other [Arab -only?] states" cannot be omitted in this context definitely.
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 12 December 2006 8:39:25 AM
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