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The Forum > Article Comments > Fact rather than fable in the Iraq debate > Comments

Fact rather than fable in the Iraq debate : Comments

By Ted Lapkin, published 31/10/2006

The study that claims there have been 655,000 civilian Iraqi deaths is the deployment of pseudo-science in a bald-faced campaign to sway America’s choice of leadership.

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Not quite the attempt to reconcile all Australians i had hoped for Dave, compelling as your post may appear to me and similar minded individuals.

Lets remember that Australia also has as citizens people who might actually agree with the likes of Easytimes and Mr Tan and your undeniably accurate statements will only be taken by such people as highbrow pacifist crap and further cement their already set minds into a position of opposition and hatred of you and the principles you espouse, thus ensuring civil strife and disagreement on what should be a very clear issue to all.

I was making an attempt to draw Aussies closer together, not further divide them, so that each may truly understand where they are coming from and why they feel the way they do in order to achieve consensus and rationality instead of emotionality and blind opposition simply because someone sees something differtently to someone else.

I find it absolutely amazing that in a country such as ours this forum displays such hatred of peaceful ideals and an utter incapability of reaching agreement or even seeking commonality in our Australian natures. Rather we prefer to fight against ourselves without concern for understanding and appreciating the intelligence and human rights of those who oppose our beliefs.

Or at least a vocal minority do.
Posted by BrainDrain, Monday, 13 November 2006 1:28:25 PM
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David,

U wrote: "According to Tan... stockpiles of WMD's..."
Sorry, those are your words, not mine.

The fact is, the turn of pre-war events was such that A DECISION had to be made, WITHIN A LIMITED TIME. ( I mentioned UN resolutions only as an example. Whether WMDs, chemical weapons, Sadam's atrocity or link with Al Queda is irrelevant to my argument.)

The point is, the only possible decisions are: Do something (War) or Do nothing. No such thing as a third option.

World leaders do not made decisions based on 100% truth and facts. Decisions are often based on analysis on a shade of grey and CALCULATED RISKS. You should know this.

On balance, the decision was to attack Sadam. Do not forget it was widely supported then.

I support the decision because I saw a very good outcome which was a real possibility... until the situation become dire, NOT because the decision to attack Sadam was wrong, but because:

(1) people constantly tie the hands of those at war.
(2) notwithstanding suicide bombing, terrorism, people only point their fingers one way - the faults of US.

In other words, Bush failed partly because too many consciously or inadvertently SIDED WITH TERRORISTS.

Many people, are "guilty" as charged.

What I said about importance of American life versus that of Iraqi's is a FACT !!
You'd be hypocritical and politically-correct to pretend otherwise.

The fact that Japan and Nazis were the agressors in WW2 is irrelevant. What is right about your country being "occupied", irregardless?

What was there to stop Japanese/Germans to turn to suicide bombings to expell US "occupations" even though they were wrong in starting wars in the first place?

Truths are:

(1) If all Muslims value their life as much as American or Japanese/ Germans do, there would be NO death due to suicide bombing or terrorist kidnapping in Iraq, NOT ONE!!

(2) If all Muslims value their lives, Iraq is already building a vibrant democracy today!!

(3) If Bush is successful, you would be singing praises of him today.
Posted by GZ Tan, Monday, 13 November 2006 5:08:51 PM
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I think you erred in your reasoning as you under-estimated the influence of Islam.

As to your emotional (nonetheless naive) appeal: "Our greatest weapons against terrorism are the principles of humanity, justice and democracy....", I say:

--> Western powers will one day deal with Iran USING MILITARY FORCE.

Because:
(1) your noble principles do not work with an Islamic Iran
(2) just like Iraq, a decision to war (rightly or wrongly) will have to be made.

Mark my words !!

BrainDrain,
I don't think we are ready just yet...
Posted by GZ Tan, Monday, 13 November 2006 5:14:51 PM
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Sorry - my eyes have just been opened wider.

Forget what I wrote earlier. Dick heads like Tan should NEVER be allowed to live in Australia.

One Iraqi life is not worth as much as one American's life??

War or do nothing is the only choice ? - MORON!

Now where is my Gun?? I'm hunting me some Tan! War is officially declared - it's my only choice, apparently?
Posted by BrainDrain, Monday, 13 November 2006 6:36:20 PM
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BrainDrain,

You asked: "One Iraqi life is not worth as much...??"

That wasn't what I wrote, neither have I make such a value judgement on life.

My point was essentially, what matters is how Iraqi Muslims THEMSELVES value THEIR own life.

The fact is - Iraqi's are murdering even themselves, everyday.

I rightly lay the blame on Islam. Unless/Until all Muslims THEMSELVES regard the sanctity of life same way as Americans/Japanese/Germans do, there will inevitably be terrorism, murders in Iraq... and that's NOT the fault of US/Bush.

You paraphrased: "War or do nothing....only choice ?"

In fact my statements were only referring to the Iraq scenario. I can see my statements were poorly phrased. I do apologise.

The Iraq pre-war situation came down to this:
(1) Saddam to stay, thanks to UN inaction
(2) No more Saddam, due to US-led action

I do maintain that option (1) was a proven "Do Nothing" option. Because "Iraq was Saddam", "Saddam was Iraq". As long as Saddam is in power, nothing would have been done/achieved. UN was proven to be a useless bureaucracy on Saddam. If the UN ever appeared to be doing something, it was because US was pushing it in the first place.

There was indeed no third option. UN sanctions? Been there, tried that.
Arab States could not, would not handle Saddam. Neither would USSR or China get their hands dirty.

Therefore I believe I was correct in the context of Saddam's Iraq and I merely reflected on events that have transpired.

You wrote: "Dick heads like Tan..."

There are all sorts in Australia, including Islamists who regard some women as uncovered meat. Hopefully you will do something about those too.

I can understand your wrathful outburst, due to the misunderstanding.

But I do insist - It is not only people who are anti-war that have an "automatic" and un-questionable claim to a moral high ground.

Enough from me on OLO...GOOD BYE, ALL
Posted by GZ Tan, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 6:53:35 PM
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Response to Brain Drain:
Please avoid using directly insulting words against another participant. It does you no credit.

A final word:
In a society which has been fractured by many years of dictatorship, war and occupation, a very large number of people will have died unreported. The sampling method attempts to estimate the total number of deaths, when it is not possible to directly make count of them. This number is compared against death rates prior to the invasion and will include violent death through criminal activity.

The arguments presented in this article provide no reason to doubt the validity of this estimate within the margin of error.

It would be reasonable to check that the researchers applied the methodology correctly, however if we are to accept the scientific method, the result can and should be confirmed by a separate research team using a similar technique.

It is not valid to compare with the UK during World War II, or any other war. Certainly some wars have generated millions of casualties.

655,000 is an entirely plausable, albeit horrific number.

For further information about casualities in Iraq:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003
Posted by David Latimer, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 8:34:25 PM
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