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The Forum > Article Comments > American decline and the Australian predicament > Comments

American decline and the Australian predicament : Comments

By Reg Little, published 9/10/2006

Ignored in the rhetoric about the 'clash of civilisations' is the rise of East Asian cultures

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Reg,
An old mate of mine who is with the Assembly of God tells me that it states in the bible that North America, more precisely U.S.A. and Britian will rule the world. So we see our futures before us, Australian Parliament, what Australian Parliament, we shall follow your lead Bud!
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 9 October 2006 11:04:57 AM
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GW Bush has not made a good fist of things and that’s for sure. The shock of 9/11 revealed a fat, rich and lazy USA that was convinced its hegemony was enough to make any terrorist think twice.

The reason the USA economy might look sick is the flight of capital from the USA to China and other emerging Asian countries. I don’t agree with that notion the waking Asian Tigers have repristinated the ancient glamour of Confucian-Daoist thought and turned it into a marketing mantra. Surely ancient texts would have rejected any foreign involvement. It would appear that the local populations are not the only ones riding on the backs of the Asian Tigers. Let’s hope that as these economies grow the wealth might reach the locals. Maybe a few foreign words might enter the Asian lexicon, words like ‘trade union’ and ‘superannuation’ and ‘workers compensation’ and others. I wonder if their rise would be so quick?

As Western culture recedes should China be this century’s cultural exemplar when juxtaposed with the quaint Chinese practice of allowing prisoners to work for the grand sum of a bowl of rice and a boot up the arse daily. Would Chinese and Indian officials warmly welcome Amnesty International and other NGOs lecturing them about the percentage of GDP which must be allocated to foreign aid? As Chinese culture leads the world into this new century will it still censor the internet?

Interesting times ahead. Please observe the ‘seat-belt’ warning sign.
Posted by Sage, Monday, 9 October 2006 12:04:18 PM
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What year was this piece written in? The very same article could have been written in 1988 would have had tons of adherents. East Asian cultures have many positive and laudable attributes most notably their discipline and willingness to work hard. But the great genius of the West is its creativity and near worship of innovation. The Eastern cultures lack this. When writers like this one were singing the praises of Japan and the Confucian cultures 15 years ago, something called the internet came along and it didn't come out of Asia.
Posted by rogindon, Monday, 9 October 2006 2:52:36 PM
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rogindon,
Very true, but they were not killing yanks at that particular time, not in large numbers anyway. The western world seems to think that terrorism began on the 11th of November 2001. Aparently yanks are more precious than the rest of us, which is why the world dislikes them with a passion. Have they found those WMD yet? The reason ol' George started this war, how people don't vote against a lunatic like him I will never know, a born again Christian A.O.G. once described by our Queensland National party Senator as the lunatic right, thou shalt not kill? They are hypocrits, and so is our rodent and public opinion is finally coming around to common sense in Australia it seems with opinion polls reflecting opposition at last.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 9 October 2006 4:42:27 PM
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Economic power doesn't neccessarily translate into world dominance and sustained superpowerdom. In the last 300 years super power status has shifted along the France, Uk, US axis. Along the way there have been many challenges such as from Russia/Soviet Union, Germany and Japan. While they may have been dominant or challenging for a generation in terms of economics, lack of internal reforms meant that they could not compete at the highest level.

Imho China has gone through a spectacular industrial transformation, perhaps a bit like the SU in the 30's but unless their economic success is followed by internal reforms and social justice I think it will collapse on itself. The American and Australian dream, that is if you work hard you can own your own house and provide for your family, is a powerful motivator that works again and again for every generation. Working hard for the survival or pride of the nation only works for a single generation after that everyone just drops out.
Posted by gusi, Monday, 9 October 2006 5:32:39 PM
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This article is extremely important, it identifies a real problem, but points to the wrong root causes.

First..Shonga.. that friend of yours is espousing "British Israelism" please do a search and find out about this. It is a cultish heresy. I'm not aware of it being a widespread view among AOG's but will keep my ears open.

ROOT CAUSES for Anglo/American decline.

Its quite simple really. Have look at the early pioneering pictures of the 'bullockies' clearing land here in Victoria. The incredible hard work, stamina and read of the times in great Poems like Clancy of the Overflow, Man from Snowy river etc. We did have a great work ethic, and so did the yanks.

Contrast that with today, especially since the 60s. Abandonment of our Christian values, which include HARD WORK (Parable of the talents) and embracing of the me me meeeeeeeeeeeee world view, the swallowing hook line and sinker of the opiate of the masses, i.e. Pornography and sexual permissiveness, the pulling up of the spiritual anchor which gave us meaning, direction and a basis for enduring values. No society has ever survived it's own decadence.

But the article points falsely to the idea that China and Korea and Japan did it by 'noble confucian and daoist' philosophical ideas.
No.. it was as follows:

a)Copy the existing technology of the West (Anglo/American)
b)Use VERY cheap labor to make VERY cheap copies.
c)Market these cheap copies in the places of their origin and force the inventors/manufacturers to go bust.
d)Keep labor costs down by threat of military detention (China)
e)Don't give a damn about any social safety net nor pollution of the environment

That....is how its happening. I suppose, following the authors logic this is Confucianism and Daoism ?
Well, whether it is or isn't I reject it. I know where I stand, and it is in Christ. If the nation chooses to go on the slippery dip to economic, social and spiritual hell, I won't be on it.

and now.... N.Korea has the BOMB.

The ONLY thing now between us and oblivion is the Anglo American alliance.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 9 October 2006 7:02:53 PM
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BOAZ... mate... I usually enjoy your comments, a little kooky to my way of thinking but still containing a few shreds of thought that make them worth reading. Your last comment is a classic example of an actually insightful contribution , but stuffing it up by your mania about "Christian values".

The decline of the 'Anglo-American' West has little to do with changes in our values. You are right - the Asia countries have moved forward because they did your points A and B. By copying our technology they have reduced what the West's prime advantage - its technological advantage over other cultures.

Without our technological advantage, we now compete on a more equal footing against societies that have certain cultural advantages - not just the Confucian work ethic, but also a tradition of government that (despite its lack of respect of human rights) has proven to be remarkably effective in taking advantage of opportunities that arise.

I believe that the West's hope lies in learning the positive cultural lessons of Asia (and avoiding their many negatives) by doing what we have done throughout history - assimilating these lessons into our own continually evolving culture. In short, our saving grace will be our adaptability due to our tradition of democracy.

Being scared and turning inwards, only looking at and considering our own rich political and cultural history (including Christian viewpoints such as yours) engaging in what the author describes as an "intellectual apartheid", will only further the decline of the West.
Posted by Ben G, Monday, 9 October 2006 11:07:08 PM
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Huntington's "Class of Civilizations" leans heavily on Carroll Quigley (1961), wherein in is proposed that civilizations follow patterns (I think Toynbee might have written on thos too). Anyway, Western civilization played with decline three times but pulled-up. Historically, the centre state of the Western civilization has been Britian in the latest version, perhaps starting with the defeat of the Spanish Amarda in 1588 and progressively ending the emergence of the national state and England at the locus of the Gold stardand (c. 1933) and Brenton Wood (1944) the US as a centre state, exists in what civilizationists refer to as an Interegum (usually 100 to 200 years), wherein the West could regain traction or an other civilization takes over.

China as the centre state of Confucian civilization is problematic, because those driving change are possibily the Shang (entrepreneurs, artisans, merchants), not the Confucians. There is possibility for much tension here. Will the merchant classes become Marfia's like in Russia? Could be. If so, how will the Communist Party act? Yet to be played out.

One thing more easy forecast is that trade with China create problems with Western trade balances. When China traded with the Classical Civilization, Rome, this happened. the Opium Wars were a result trade inbalance with England, and this problem has occur in dynastic China too. Maybe, a new trade systems (1933, 1944, 1973) or a war would save the West
Posted by Oliver, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:57:17 AM
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Nice article, and a good post there by Ben.

The world I envision in 30 years time has the US receding quickly in economic power, being eclipsed by China and India, though their cultural supremacy will take much longer to decay.
Children throughout the world - even in cultures very different to the US - have been affected by Americo/Western values. This won't just go away any time soon.
This is a more powerful foothold than some might think, though the change in economic status will trigger a recession and the value of the greenback will plummet.
Once this occurs, the multinationals that have made the US their roosting place will be relocating their headquarters to new locations. They certainly won't go down with the ship, even though it isn't technically sinking, rather, taking on a little water and bobbing unpleasantly.

This of course, is a largely economic forecast, which doesn't take into account political manouevring, though I rather suspect that there won't be much the US can do. Especially if it maintains this shotgun approach to economic and political responsibility.

Australia should be doing okay - our resources will last a while longer, and we'll be an invaluable trading partner for the new emerging economies. There will be lobbying from many quarters over the next decade to up the migration of skilled and low skilled workers, especially from asia. As their economies rise in stature, it will be the asian powers that have the skills adn workers we need to maintain our ability to export resources in ever increasing amounts. Hopefully we'll be able to diversify beyond this a little more, but hey. I guess we'll see.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 3:27:53 PM
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Our biggest problem will be keeping keeping crime and corruption under control as we lower wages to compete with Asia and thus our greatest challenge will be maintaining our democracy.

I have visions of all our banking and IT workers standing outside of the dole office with placards saying,"We've been Globalised".

The power of big corporations I think is out of control.Too much money via the share market is being concentrated in fewer hands and our Govts just tax the living day lights out of the middle and working classes since they are easy targets.

We have the lunatic socialists on one hand who want total control,and large corporates who want total power.Surely we can find a balance of power that benefits all of us.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 6:04:27 PM
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Arjay,
Come with the democratic socialists mate, we won't let you down
Regards, Shaun

The only other alternative is to vote for the other conservative party the ALP.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 9:19:41 PM
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Shaun ,that would be a difficult pill for me to swallow.I believe in small Govt and the right of the individual to find their own destiny.This Globalised World is moving us all closer to the totalitarian state.You just look at NSW at the moment and the manner in which the laws and regulations of our Councils and State Govt bodies are implemented are akin to the Starlinist regiemes of the old Soviet USSR.

Our so called Capitalist system his becoming like the Soviet Totalitarian State that the Bush administration professes to abhorr.
At every turn in NSW we have more taxes and regulation aimed at destroying the autonomy of the individual.This is a result of unaccountable,bloated big Govt.I hate the word Socialism because it conjures up images of huge bureaucracies screwing the individual just like the big corporates,only for a result of far less wealth for all.

In other words,I'd rather be screwed buy a Capitalist rather than a non productive Communist,since the wealth from a Capitalist has some trickle down effect.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:35:41 PM
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Arjay,
Fair enough mate, that wealth didn't trickle down very far in my life, I can assure you, however, you do raise an interesting point. We DS's don't have any of that nasty Stalinist B/S to us, like Sweeden for the previous 25 years until recently, we believe in humanitarianism, elegatarianism, and a decent standard of living for ALL.

Something that could not be said of our current regieme, we are moving closer to the U.S.A. every day in some small way, I believe we have lost our true Australianism, by being so far up GW's bum. We seem to be a different type of people these days inflenced by U.S.A. consumerism, so much so that our personal overseas debt has hit a trillion, for on 20 million people, eventually it will all come crashing down, and people will say "we weren't warned"

Then old Pete "have one for the country mate" Costello will have the smirk on the other side of his face, if he does not manage to get out of Treasury before the collapse. The yanks have a huge budget deficeit, which Australians are told is bad, must depend on who you are I guess. If I'm still alive in the morning, please shoot me.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:51:58 PM
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Onya Ben -so now I'm a kook and a maniac ? :) I'll add those to Ifry's list of names for me.

I feel our Western decline should be further explained.
-Economic decline
-Social decline

Economic, is based on the points I raised, with the emergence of the Asian tigers, though Malaysia and Singapore and Korea are hardly competitive these days on labor rates. The main problem is China and India, with Indonesia straggling along in the rear.

Our Economic decline should be segmented.
-'Manufacturing/Value added'
-'Agricultural'.

The current situation is that our government is couching the vested interests of the mining/resource/agricultural sector in terms of 'National Interest' when in reality its 'vested' interest.
They are blatantly sacrificing our industrial/manufacturing to this interest. Given that 'our' resources are being shipped out, and value added goods shipped back, being the price of getting access to markets for the mining/resource/agricultural it wreaks of 'raw power' at work rather than national interest.

Our social decline (as I see it) is where we have drifted from "Father knows best" to "DINK" Dual income no kids or a couple of inconvenient ones and 2 stressed out people who are mostly interested in personal existential fulfillment than true family life.

I accept the tag 'mania' re Christian values. I am indeed passionate about their value. There are 2. Love God, Love your neighbour. Most will accept the second, but not the first. I simply say that without the first the 2nd degenerates to 'love of convenience & opportunity'.

"Only one life, twill soon be past, I better start living hard and fast" ?

Humanism in my view is misguided sentimentality with no real foundation other than opinion.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 11 October 2006 6:16:29 AM
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Reg,

Interesting article but as noted above, why assume Confucianism to be at the locus of entrepreneuralism? The Shang (merchants) historically were outside the Examination/Agrianian system, which was buttressed by Confucianism. Poplar books on Conficianism, Guangxi and the 36 Strategies, side-step many historical realities, relating the nature (including the deceptive nature)of the Chinese merchant classes. Corrupt businessman could prove to be a major problem for the Chinese Communist Party, where regional developers, pronvincial mayors and the like create internal economic communities outside the centralised system. Your comment?
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 11 October 2006 11:16:50 AM
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"Maybe, a new trade system (1933, 1944, 1973, now ?) or a war would save the West". By war, I don't mean the West with China. China is likely to watch Western/Islamic events, before it would set its eyes on Taiwan or Viet-nam. Historically, China wanted deference, rather dominance, except for near territories. I think Oz can readily be good friends with China and remain allies with the US/Eurpore (our civilization).

On the other hand, Diaspora countries, like Singapore, might try to ruin relationships with divisive comments about the West, while staying in the Commonwealth and under the Five Power Defence Pact.

However, economically, China needs to be only one-fifth as productive as the US to achieve the same GDP. This situation needs to managed towards mutual benefit.

China needs to self-generate innovation and be self-productive; else the US needs to retain its economic dominance. A large unproductive, non-innovative China and a failing US economy would be destabling: That new World order [c. 2030] might not be very nice.

In history, it is not unkown for the more advanced society to loose out to the less developed invader [military or economic].
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 11 October 2006 5:39:21 PM
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Reg,

Your further comment on the above might stimulate this forum.

Also, note that Chinese "technology" tended not to be theory-based and pulse upwards mainly during periods of unification (Jin). Ancient China turned its back on the Mohists and the Greeks.

Needham's inventory catelogues technical achievement and scientific progress. While China did not go through a Dark Ages similar to the West, it didn't have a civilizational/progressive equivalent to applying Greek thought to practice.
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 12 October 2006 11:34:47 AM
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I found this most interesting and will go and buy the book A Confucian Daoist Millennium. Where do I get a copy. Can Reg or someone refer me to a website.
Thanks
Sion
Posted by fred sion, Friday, 13 October 2006 1:17:04 AM
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Ben,
David Boaz is no manic, he is Christian Right, he is merely expressing an opinion, which is what we are all here for, I am Christian Left, and often disagree with David, but one thing I can tell you is he knows what he's talking about. David and I don't have to agree all the time, and I lean more your way, however David does make some good points.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 13 October 2006 2:23:07 AM
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Oliver


Sorry for the delay. Still learning the ropes.

I found your comments instructive and challenging in areas where your knowledge is superior to mine.

My judgements are based as much on experience in Japan and elsewhere in Asia, as on experience in China. Despite their nominal capitalism and communism respectively I consider Japan and China today have very similar governments, systems and values, Confucian-Daoist for want of a better name. On the basis of this evaluation I argued, very much against the otherwise consensus view, in the Australian Embassy in Beijing in 1976/77 that China would emulate Japan. In The Confucian Renaissance in 1989 this projection was repeated and again mocked by many.

Communism and capitalism are Western, not Asian, hang-ups, very much a secular product of the Christian messianic tradition. I think that recent history shows the contemporary Confucian bureaucratic strategist is an even more formidable adversary than the Shang.

One also needs to remember, despite inhibitions encouraged by Anglo-American intellectual apartheid, that, apart from the past 200 years, Chinese technological achievements generally overshadowed those of the West. I am coming to the conclusion that the non-theory character of Chinese science and technology was and is a major strength. East Asians can handle theory (note contemporary patent numbers) but both the Daodejing and the Yijing effectively scorn theory as the West knows it. The dismissal of the Yi Jing by Needham, despite his long, passionate dedication to Chinese science, is instructive.

Much more on this, including many lingering questions, can be found in A Confucian-Daoist Millennium?

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Friday, 13 October 2006 8:09:21 AM
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Reg,

"Communism and capitalism are Western, not Asian, hang-ups, very much a secular product of the Christian messianic tradition."

Fully agree. Lucian Pye notes that in the 1920s, Mao didn't really operate like your typical Western-Orthodox Communist. Perhaps, several Asian leaders studied Communism and Fabianism, because these ideologies were instructive with respect to organizing people. Capitalism is a moderation of merchantilism, which which was out-growth of Elizabethan monopolies (c.1600)... very Western (colonialism, dominance).

Civilizationalists (e.g., Quigley, Toynbee) note, there was a split in the Sinic civilization c. 400 , leading to Chinese society and Japanese society. There is a common thread through both. Neither society; I suggest, and you allude to, are particularly theocentric. Chinese famililism (Redding, Silin) links to ancestor workship; Japanese workship links in part to animism. The Judeo-Christian approach is more to do with dominion over the environment. Historically, Confucianism is cosmocentric and seeks "world affirmation" not "world abnegation": i.e., "adaption to the world" (harmony), not "mastery of the world" (control) (Chen). Just the same, in China, there is a penchant insider "Chineseness", vis-a-vis, outsiders, going back two thousand plus years. Maybe, Japanese nationalism is not quite the same, but, both appear to be ethnocentric and self-isolating?
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 13 October 2006 2:53:44 PM
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"Chinese technological achievements generally overshadowed those of the West. I am coming to the conclusion that the non-theory character of Chinese science and technology was and is a major strength."

In dynastic times, Chinese technological advances tended to gain strength in unification periods (Jin, at China U. in HK. I have discussed with him). Also, Chinese technolgies tended to buttress the State, including significant capital works.

On the other hand, the West may have lost contact with the better Greek teachings, because Rome spoke Latin in its decline. The remnants, from which the West grew, could have been better.

Over centuries, China progressed slowly, but consistently, except during periods of disunity. The West really jumped ahead c. 1760.

If true, China's reported containment of a fusion reaction is also instructive. This would be primary innovation.

Japanese technologies seem to be integrative and transformational: e.g., solid state TV, walkman. Whene Japan entered Meiji Restoration, China's Qing [last] Dynasty was in decline. Nonetheless, some pretty cultural antecedents have been carried forward to this century. If China, is to grow its own global companies I feel it must be more horizontally integrative to outsiders, elsewise Kin Altruism will drive it more towards Korean chaebol style operations, than Japanese keiretsu [which may now be a thing of the past?]. My own experience with Chinese SME owners [Singapore, Hong Kong SAR]going IPO, that some entrepreneurs inappropriately carry-forward business and accounting practices, perhaps not appropriate to a public company.
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 13 October 2006 5:16:47 PM
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Oliver

Many thanks for the extra comments.

My impression is that we are beginning to talk at cross purposes, although I still find it most instructive. The issue seems to me to be that you are working within an English language conceptual framework, while I have now spent about forty years trying to figure out what is wrong with that.

The first lines of the Daodejing (after 20 years or so of pondering)proved very helpful to me:

The Dao that can be explained is not the everlasting Dao.
The name that can be named is not the everlasting name.

To me this now signifies that words, concepts, rational structures and scientific theories are just useful props for the human mind but need to be continually checked by the direct perceptions of a disciplined intuition.

Both the Daodejing and the Yi Jing (as well as Chan and Zen Buddhism) work to assist this but there is little in the Western tradition.

John Hobson's The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization is the source I trust most on the achievements of Chinese innovation.

China's progress in developing IPv6 for possible release during the 2008 Olympics and its recently revealed apparent capacity to close down American satelites suggests to me we are close to being confronted with a number of scientific and technological breakthougha and surprises. At the same time, I believe both Japan and China have been much more cautious than the West in seeking to conquer nature and trigger the problems we encounter today with environmental sustainability, ecological balance and human well-being.

For Fred Sion(and yourself if interested), A Confucian-Daoist Millennium? can be purchased through the publisher at www.connorcourt.com.au/little.pdf or a google search for the title will also guide you to The Asia Bookroom in Canberra and China Books in Sydney.

Best regards

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Friday, 13 October 2006 6:52:03 PM
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Hello Reg,

Thank you. Interesting follow-up.

“The Dao that can be explained is not the everlasting Dao. The name that can be named is not the everlasting name”.

Everyday, contemporary Western society would to seem downplay holistic perspectives and gestalts. Agreed. Nonetheless, perhaps, similar notions are known to Western philosophy and quantum physics.

Immanuel Kant mentions the influence of noumena on phenomena, where space and time belong only to intuition as a state of mind. For Kant, “space and time are intuitions of our minds which in order that we may have experiences of the appearance of objects and events” (Baggott). For example, we perceive spatial relationships, but these are not noumena, rather “sensible intuitions” of phenomena. Michael Polanyi, maintains we make commitments to a reality that the will be confirmed at some “indeterminate” future. Polanyi knew Einstein. Herein, in conversation, Einstein said to Polanyi intuition preceded his discoveries.

Underlying the concept of superposition in physics is the idea of the knowledge of the observation of a wave (only) or a particle (only). Herein, the observed conditions are mere complementarities of reality, not reality itself.

Maybe, the success of classical mechanics and the industrial revolution has made the Western person in-the-street too limited in contemplations of, what is so? If Einstein was Indian, would he have found Heisenberg more tolerable?

In sum, I think Eastern ideas present themselves in Western thought, but have been assigned esoteric or as impractical. The East can draw on the same in their everyday lives. In a post-Newtonian era, this wider perspective could prove to the East’s advantage.

Thanks for the book details.

Cheers,

O.
Posted by Oliver, Saturday, 14 October 2006 3:15:01 PM
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Oliver

I think you have captured the essence of the problem very well. The challenge is to transform the increasingly mechanical character of Western daily life to make it more productivve and competitive. Mae-Wah Ho of www.i-sis.org.uk explores the comtemporary practical challenges of this very well

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Saturday, 14 October 2006 5:30:44 PM
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"This eternally dualistic subject-oject way of approaching the mototcycle sounds right to us because we are used to it. But that's not right. It's always been an articifial interpretation superimposed on reality, It is never reality. When this duality is completely accepted a certain nondivided relationship between the mechanic and motor cycle, a craftsman feeling for work, is destroyed. When traditional rationality divides the world into subjects and objects it shuts out Quality, and when you're really stuck, its Quality and not subjects and objects that tells you where you ought to be." - Pirsig (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance)
Posted by Oliver, Sunday, 15 October 2006 12:18:47 PM
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Oliver

Sadly,if one looks back over recent decades little has been learnt or applied in the West from such writings, whether the field is politics. commerce, finance, science, medicine, food or simple human health. As a consequence we have 'American Decline and the Australian Predicament'

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Sunday, 15 October 2006 5:46:37 PM
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"argued, very much against the otherwise consensus view, in the Australian Embassy in Beijing in 1976/77 that China would emulate Japan."

I agree with you.

The success of Japan in the 1970-80s, was very a result of the Cold War politics of the 1950s-1960s. Japan was built as a stalwart against Soviet and Communism. If the US was not a the sole nuclear power, the Soviets would have probably pushed harder for Japan to be divided like Germany [Russia had issues with Japan going bak to the turn of the nineteenth century]. The West needed Japan to counter-balance Mao. The occupying forces were unable to break the power of the Zaibatsu [or the rice farmers], which led to the Keiretsu. The Mitsu coal mine strikes of the 1950s led the "salaryman" philosophy and a job for life. The US open its markets to Japan but allowed Japan to protect its own markets. The Keiretsu, were able to place high margins on domestic products and use profitable product lines [also cheap products to third world countries] to fund Western market entry [often using loose brick segmentation]. The relationship between M.I.T.I. and industry was also very close. Low interest loans from Keiretsu banks also helped. Transformalist engineer entrenpreneurs developed new product types: e.g., solid state TV. None of thes matters are common to China.

I think your colleagues are seeing are a Meiji Restoration Mk II, because of West-East technolgy transfer and China's opening.

Not so:

As a GM of pharmaceutal groups once said to me, when I was writing a case, "Asia is not the same". Sure, there are some kernel underlying Asian antecedents, but there is also condierable heterogeneity.

.. More
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 16 October 2006 12:23:23 PM
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... /cont.

China comes a tradition of being the Middle Kingdom with vassal states. Albeit, only self-ruled for only 250 years [?], the Chinese bureaucracy usually stayed in place. Capital works in Ancient China tended to break China into disparate familial farming groups and dialect groups. That is, as Redding states [and supported by history going back to the Shang dynasty], Chinese think terms of a series concentric circles moving out from the centre [the family, village, dialect group, country, foreigners].

In contrast, Japan is much more nationalistic, as has been said, like granite, not pebbles [China]. Japan is Japan. Japanese are Japan (spiritually animist). The Chinese are familes (spiritually ancestor worshippers.) China's emergence will not emulate, Japan's.

Historically, if memory serves, Veblen saw more commonality between Japan and Germany
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 16 October 2006 12:27:16 PM
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Oliver

I have no argument with your historical facts. In the West also there are many distinctions to be drawn, not least between Britain and America. The central point remains that only in Confucian-Daoist East Asia have a succession of states all succeeded in outplaying the West (and particularly the Anglo-American world) in the global marketplace and in using the American fixation on Communism to great advantage. Even the Chinese managed this apparent oxymoron.

The details and mechanics of Japanese, Korean or Chinese success are much less important than the fact that they could all find policies to produce more or less the same highly successful outcome.

The problem today is that the Anglo-American world is like a rabbit caught in the headlights of a rapidly approaching vehicle and squanders the little remaining time on defendinng or legitimising causes that are already lost.

Strangely, even at this time most Anglo-Americans could learn much of value to strengthen their cause by a little humble study of the Chinese classics, while always searching for their contemporary applications

Best regards

Reg.
Posted by Reginald, Monday, 16 October 2006 4:57:22 PM
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Hello Reg.,

I believe I understand from where you are come. I too can see the need to think outside of the mechanical model, including studying the literary works of non-Western societies. My comment about Japan and China was to put it to you, that even in the 1970s, it should have been possible to argue Japan and China are not the same on historical and society grounds alone. Your thesis could rightfully be added.

As we alluded, Western culture has been entrapped within Newton models, reductionism and positivism; at the loss of explanation, gestalts and relationships [perhaps, broader than Chinese classics?]. This case posited applies to US, UK , Oz and Western countries generally.

Moreover, if we turn our specifically attention to the US, as a centre state [Huntington,] and then ask; what makes America, America? I think we can take guidance in the “Manifest Destiny” [O’Sullivan].

The ideal of the Manifest Destiny was/is to force the expansion of democracy based on Anglo-Saxon theoretical justifications. Initially, this politico-social ideology was applied to the Western expansion of the US and to the annexation of Texas. Today, the US, as a superpower, has globalised the Manifest Destiny, as a missionary enterprise. In US eyes, they feel just, fair and accurate: Other ideologies don’t achieve a look-in. Herein, Islam is the new Communism.

Given the above-related frame, I see the Western powers [except France?, with the US and the wheel, unlikely to consider alternative ideological or methodological approaches], even alternative democratic processes. Confucianism and Daoism will be approached by the West with a langsyne attachment to Anglo-Saxon ethnocentric ways.

For a civilization, I guess the bottom-line is to keep on expanding, be productive and don’t rest on one’s laurels.

At present, the West is in a stage of conflict and facing possible decline, whilst North East Asia seems to be expanding. In 1760 ,the apt model was to apply theory to practice, 1860, to industrialise and educate the people, and, from 1960, to look towards your Confucian-Daoist recommendation. That said, “superior” models tend to be tentative. 2060?

Kind regards,

Oliver
Posted by Oliver, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 3:48:55 PM
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Oliver

Again, I appreciate your insights. I suppose the title of my book, A Confucian-Daoist Millennium?, suggests that I am inclined to think 2060, 2160 and beyond already may be taken care of and Manifest Destiny served the Christian tradition in both its Capitalist and Scientific forms well for a period, but that now it has become like other forms of faith that cease to serve their followers.

I was reading a piece by an American today under the title of 'The I Ching is my Bible' and it claimed this was not an uncommon attitude in American amongst those who felt let down by more mainstream forms of morality and spirituality.

My concern, however, is more with Western political leaders who see themselves as following a course of real politik long after they have become strategic dupes.

By the way, you know a little about me, but I know nothing of your background. Could you let me have a thumbnail sketch of the experiences that have informed your reading?

With warm regards

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 4:25:35 PM
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Reg.,

I worked with Westpac (National manager, Deposit Products) until 1992 and moved into education. I have taught at UTS and UWS. In Singapore, I was a Visting Lecturer at Ngee Ann Polytechnic and Director of Studies of a unicentre (1,200 students). In Hong Kong (base) and China, I was Academic Director of another unicentre (2,000 students). I have taken time off to complete a mature age PhD (about 6-9 months away), where I am studing the influence of cultural axioms on knowledge discovery in new product development. I have lived in Asia for nine years.

I have written curricula and TV series (OTEN/SBS) on Asia Pacific Marketing.

My research compares Chinese and Western societies. Post-doc, I plan to globalise my current model, which looks at vertical power ethos (secrecy, control, patrimonalism), horizontal altruism (non-kin altruism, product mutualism, exchange altruism) and conventional orthodoxy langsyne attachment, a priori validation, conformity. Hoping for ARC funding.

Recently, returned from Chicago where I called into the US-China Chamber of Commerce regarding data collection fpr my thesis.

Soon, I may return to Oz or end up at a US university.

Will address your comments soon.

Regards and best wishes,

Peter (a.k.a. Oliver
Posted by Oliver, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:15:13 PM
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Bushbred Part One

Not intended for this communique, but partly on the same line.

With North Korea, the West led by GWB, is aiming at a target really nothing to do with the prey they have had their sights on for the last five years - except that going by GWB’s reckoning NK belongs to his Axis of Evil.

The North Korean problem in origin really belongs to the early Cold War era. It was an era in which America after WW2, using lessons from the mistakes of Post WW1 Versailles, initiated the wonderfully beneficial Marshall Plan resurrecting our former enemies Germany and Japan as well as other war-torn countries, really proving what the early Christian doctrine of forgiviness can achieve.

Further, with the rising presence of the Soviet Union , we backed America all the way, American movies of US wartime exploits, remaining immensely popular. A new more deadly fear of nuclear war with the Soviet Union and of it getting ahead in the space race and a quickness of matching the US with exploding a hydrogen bomb, only increased our feelings for our need of dependence on America.

Apart from the present NK problem, which most social scientists might say, is largely the cause of unchanged thought-patterns still dominating NK reasoning, as well as partly with China, considering her still suppling 3/4s of NK’s domestic supply besides the possible upkeep of one million men under arms.

Not that we should totally condemn China, even with a former Soviet high-ranker like Putin possibly going China’s way a little, as well as possibly also formerly non-aligned countries like India.

Non-alignment is an interesting term because in today’s problems, which besides North Korea, are mostly to do with the Middle East with Afghanistan only just to the north east - countries like China and indeed a revitalised Russia still with a Cold War nuclear stockpile, certainly could be termed non-aligned and not truly pro-America.

Japan and South Korea, of course, are virtually trusted allies of America, their post-WW2 US engineered constitutions making sure of it.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:16:54 PM
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Bushbred Part Two

Today’s White House problem can certainly be certified by using GWB’s term - if you are not with us you are against us. Much like the worn-out bull-roar of the British imperialist army sergeant-major - yours is not to reason why?

There are so many of our former allied military commanders critical of all the decisions that have been made since 9/11, which really only killed around the same number of people who die in the average large passenger aircraft crash.

Cerainly we are still shocked and sorry, while still deeply wishing that the attack was better to be by us on a Middle-East Islamic mosque killing three thousand rather than three hundred.

Though maybe we are now getting too-much negative feed-back about American mistakes right back to our defeat in the Vietnam War, which Daniel Ellsberg was so vocal about with Tony Jones on Lateline, as Ellsberg was also caustic about, not only the present mess in Iraq, but the futility of ever trying to change Iran. We give reminder also about our East Timor commander, since retired, Major General Peter Cosgrove now having severe doubts about us having joined the US and Britain in the attack on Iraq.

Possibly the most foolish thing ever done in the Middle East by the US, was to allow Israel to go nuclear, which in Realpolitik logic means that we now need Iran to go nuclear to create a much needed power balance, as happened between India and Pakistan

Should suit GWB’s school of thought as a Texan, seeing that in the Texan gunslinger days with the Martins and McCoys, it was safer to keep each evenly armed rather than disarm either one.

The sorry part about it, is that not once have we heard about our PM saying a cross-word to his apparent bosom friend the US President. There is a saying he has the political knack but not the historical knounce. Does this mean that future historians who write on a global scale may not treat Mr Howard as well as those more Aussie bound?
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 5:51:06 PM
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Oliver

Many thanks for the background, which I found to be most interesting.

My phone number is 07 3254 1687, generally any time after 5 pm or weekends. I would call you if you preferred and are prepared to give me your number.

I am intrigued by the difference in our approaches to similar issues. My formative influences are studies in literature and language and then work in diplomacy. I tend to shy away from what I take to be your more analytical and academic disciplines.

I wonder what you would make of my somewhat intuitive ponderings in A Confucian-Daoist Millennium? I wou;ld also be intrigued to hear your apploication of the influence of cultural axioms on knowledge discovery in new product development as applied to Mae-Wan Ho's work and writings on the I-SIS website.

Best regards

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Tuesday, 17 October 2006 6:48:57 PM
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Hello Reg,

You were one post in front of me. I would like to establish a more permanent contact. Busy this evening, but will phone soon. I will give you some notice, via this site.

My recognition of the value of your insights into the Chinese classics comes in part from noting how 19th & 20th century science has become limited in its vision.

I look forward to our talk.

Welcome bushbred,

You have made quite a few points.

With regards the Marshall Plan, some might hold the US was trying to increase the potential market demand for its products. Germany suffered under WWI reparations and the West did not forgive the debt in the 1930s. I think Germany may have even had to borrow to meet its instalments. Thus, creating a debt spiral, until it stopped paying.

Marshall aid was offered to the Eastern Bloc, but was refused, for fear of Western/US hegemony.

In the 1950s, we were much closer to England. England entered the Common Market. This event influenced our relationship with England. Albeit, England was for a period of time was in the bad books of the US over the Suez Canal. Hence, we, and not the US helped the UK with its nuclear programme. (Remember, Sir Mark Oliphant headed up a Los Alamos team.)

In the 1919-1960 period, colonisation was also an important issue. Rooseveldt was opposed to colonisation. He died in Office. Truman, who replaced him, didn't want upset the French. Obviously, having implications for Vietnam. The true issue here may have been Nationalism, rather than Communism.

I agree with Reginald, in that, we can learn plenty from China. With our focus on scientic method (which is good), we have gone overboard (which is bad) in avoiding non-positivist approaches altogether. Thus, pretty much throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 18 October 2006 5:48:00 PM
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Oliver

I will look forward to hearing from you

Best regards

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Thursday, 19 October 2006 6:04:38 AM
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Many thanks for your enlightening comments, Oliver. Would say that in my Post, did over emphasise the change of feelings many of us oldies have experienced about the US since the Marshal Plan. But I guess you agree I did it for a reason.

Still get a kick out of watching MASH, so before my own Last Post, wish we could together and fathom it all out. Reckon most of the trouble now in the world, is greed getting in the way of wisdom and understanding - or maybe just plain commonsense?

Cheers, George C, WA.
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 19 October 2006 1:46:10 PM
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Reg,

Warm greetings. I will call you, today, 5.30-6.30 pm, Canberra time. Doesn't matter if you are out, I will try again.

Best wishes.

bushbred,

Haven't seen MASH for a while, as I live in Hong Kong. Great show.

With respect to ethics, it has been noted the Chinese ethics has its own spin on the golden rule, "Do not unto others, as you would not have them do unto you". [Christian] Western culture maintains; do good things; Chinese culture maintains, don't do bad things. There is a subtle East/West difference.

With respect the mashall Plan, maybe its exchange altruism. I do good by you; you do good by me. China might look through the lenses of hierarchary, the five relationships and deference: Vassals you recognise me and I will be conscious of your needs. The difference is, the West-Other encounter the main arrows go both ways. With China-Other, that the "Other" must define itself in relation to the Middle Kingdom.

Civizational oligarchies [West, China, Orthodox, Islam...] have been acting like tectonic plates for centuries. Along the way, all have competed for ascendancy. Meanwhile, there have been ideological, societal and technological transfers. Anthopologists maintain [common sense], ideology is the hardest to transform, next social factors next hardest, and technology, the easiest.

Reginald's position that the West can learn of classic Chinese writings would seem to confront Western fixation of scientic methodology [only]. Herein, supposedly, we do reap rewards from our mega-knowledge, but we become narrowed with respect to the type of knowledge. [Hope that is a fair representation?] Albeit, there might be "some" early Western insights in quantum mechanics and the philosophy of science [e.g., the role of purpose in epistemology].


Kind regards.
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 20 October 2006 12:17:03 PM
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BB1
It seems much is being hidden about the real state of things in Iraq, especially as certain branches of the Coptic-style Christian churches who have been getting on with the Muslims have been forced to leave. Social and political philosophers are really beginning to wonder.

Below is a brief on a deep look at America by Dr Denis Kenny, former tutor at Harvard and Fordham universities

The United States of America has long been regarded as the most generously endowed piece of real estate on the face of this planet. It has inherited from Mother Nature, and appopriated from the Indian nations, an immense wealth of natural resources. It is the first nation in history, moreover, officially to promise its citizens a basic right to the pursuit of happiness, a promise unprecedented in the annals of previous social orders.

Why, then, since the close of the 19th century, and the closing decades of the 20th century, has the US killed and continued to kill men, women and children, and to hunger for, and plunder the resources of nearly every peoples on this planet? Why, as many US patriots have asked over the last two hundred years, have not US governments remained contentedly within their borders and not endlessly wrangled with the less endowed nations of this world?

(Maybe colonial Pax Britannica could have been accused of the same thing, Anglophonic Americana having only inherited from the Brits?)

According to Dr Kenny, perhaps more than any other culture or nation, the US is a product of a complex, but identifiable configuration of memetic influences - and it is interesting to list the most important of these and the role they have played in the shifting sagas of US foreign policy.

The Puritans of New England were the first to encase within a political framework not only a deep commitment to success in this world, but that such an achievement was an assurance of religous salvation.

Further, unlike the secularising tendencies of European culture, the Americans have periodically engaged in religous revivals to maintain the religous spirit of the first settlers.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 20 October 2006 5:53:59 PM
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BB2

Dr Kenny has two other memes, which contribute to the complex configuration of US culture and consciousness. The second and probably the most significant - Rational Enlightenment. The main early actors - Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Benjamin Franklin. All were not Puritans, but Unitarians, Deists, and outright agnostics or atheists.

The third consists of the frontier meme, but as adventurers and pirates et al, were and are still common to Western advancement, we might suggest that in the US they could have evolved from both of the main US historical personas.

Further, as regards the above two main US memes, we might suggest we now have similar in Australia. John Howard and Peter Costello’s published interests regarding the Hillsong Church - which does imply that different to the teachings of the early Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount, for many modern Australians Christian success in business and politics could be an assurance for a ticket to Heaven.

Us Australians having had so much regard for America as explained in a previous Post, one wonders strongly? While some blame America’s overdone role in Vietnam, and over-reach in the Middle-East, others blame the atomic arming of Israel in the 1970s, and the subsequent great increase in Arab suicide bombing. Also as social philosophers point out, suicide bombing is not only related to the Islamic psyche. The Tamil Tigers hold the record by far, well over 400 cases, in fact.

Finally, as seemingly open-minded students do we need to discuss Dr Kenny’s rather discreet though obvious targetting of a US Christianity which obviously favours more the Old Testament - any means to a good end - doctrine which unfortunately is all too similar to the Lutheran bishop in Nazi Germany who suggested to certain members of his desperately worried clergy, that if you do really believe in the Spirit, despite what is happening in our society, your Spirit will be cleansed after death.

The whole makes one glad that he has learnt to temper some of these worrying new Christian beliefs with Socratic Reasoning.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 20 October 2006 6:07:19 PM
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Greetings bushbred,

I could put that civilizations sustain themselves through expansion and unification. Retaining economic and military power and internal cohesion are at the centre. Not also civilizations have attempted to achieve the goals in the same. Albeit, War would seem to standout. In the Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilizations Royal marriages were important, after conquest. Alexander the Great married of his sister (?) to the family of Darius II. A child (assassinated) between Julius Caesar and Cleopatra was once seen as a probable vehicle for the unification of Egypt (itself two kingdoms) and Rome. In more modern times, we have seen monarchies over both England and France. In the 1800s and 1900s, relationship was diluted to become alliances. Victoria, in this regard, is said, to be the mother of Europe.

Addressing this thread initiated by Reginald, we need to include China:

Over two thousand years ago, China went through feudal and waring states periods, but latter periods of unification and disunification. With the exception of the early (c.1400) Ming period (1368-1644), China has attempted to sustain its Union of (Lots of Abraham Lincolns in Chinese history).

The goal was to build a harmonious state built on Confucianism and to a lesser extent Daoism. The former focusing of hierarchies and obliged relationships. The latter, the antithesis of atomism, examined complementarity and fields (forces/flows). The upshot being that suppression, even sadistic punishments (skinning people alive), was applied/directed internally to maintain unity and merit; whilst the emperor still held his Mandate of the Son of Heaven in the Middle Kingdom. The arrows point inwards.

In the case on America, we had the US civil war. An economic war for the South (agricultural); and, a War of preservation of the Union for the North (industrialised). Slavery and exploited Northern free labour were on the sidebar.

Like Ancient to Modern China, the nineteen States needed to consolidate unification. The right to leave the Union, the right to secede, would have been seen as just by French Enlightenment Thinkers only one century before. The arrows point inward.

cont./*
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 25 October 2006 3:35:25 PM
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*/cont.

In the nineteenth century, the US expanded under the Manifest Destiny: The US fought England, France, the Canadian colonies, Texas (a country in 1949), Mexico and many indigenous clans. This represented claims and conquest: From the perspective of the original thirteen colonies, the Manifest Destiny represented expansion. The arrows point outwards from the first colonies' centre.

During the time of American economic and territory expansion, England’s military might perhaps reached its peak, but turned-downwards suddenly in the twentieth century. Colonisation was on the way out. Market economies were on the way in.

After WWI, Germany forced to scuttle many ships. Even England, needed to reduce its fleet the size of the US fleet. So, c. 1910-1950, there was a shift from England being THE military power and the US being AN economic power. The role of Centre State of West was passed to the US SUPERPOWER, giving rise to your (bushbred's) perception of a Pax America: The US as THE military power and THE Economic power.

Relating Reginald's thread; China and America, I suggest, stand at different poles on several dimensions: The US fears external threats. US arrows point outwards global domination. The US fears incoming arrows: e.g., terrorists and illegal aliens.

China, by way of contrast, fears internal disharmony, challenges to governance and collapse. It’s (unification) arrows point inwards. China fears arrows, from within, threatening central power of the Communist Party: e.g., economic mafias, counter philosophies and internal economic disparities leading to civil disharmonies.

Globally, societies meet... Developing on Reginald’s points: Daoism might have a chance at building cross-cultural bridges. That is, The West’s capacity to use science and to innovate, PLUS THE COMPLEMENT, the East’s ability to apply holism to think non-scientifically to improve existing technologies. In SUM, Daoism could prove mutually beneficial.

However, to achieve effect partnership, the East must accept the value of (non-Kin) Horizontal Altruism and the West must accept Holism to be as valid as is Reductionism. The rub is; "there cannot be two suns in the sky" (Chinese proverb).

cont./Tomorrow
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 25 October 2006 4:26:01 PM
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I think we need a new foriegn policy, let's get the rodent on the phone to Connie Rice so that she can tell him what it will be.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 25 October 2006 4:57:58 PM
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Bushbred

Dr Kenny's three memes are interesting and not too far from the mythologies of the three cities I identify in 'A Confucian-Daoist Millennium?' as central to the Anglo-American tradition -= Jerusalem (faith, dogma and false prophets), Athens (narrow and limiting rationalism) and Rome (source of the frontier plundering corporate spirit). This may stretch things a little but I think we are seeking to identify something similar in the contemporary West.

Oliver, I am not sure what it achieves to highlight specific atrocities as all peoples commit them. It is interesting, nevertheless, that China has made great sacrifices in recent times to achieve unity and it might even be possible to argue that it demands more of its own than of others. It would, however, be unwise to count on that.

My overriding interest is not to argue which tradition is more virtuous (although the Twelve Civil Offensives illustrate the dangers of lack of virtue) but rather to explore the forces apparently transforming and shaping our near future. In this I suspect we may be approaching a discovery that will seriously compromise our pride in Western science and its greed for endless frontier conquest.

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Wednesday, 25 October 2006 6:47:39 PM
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Reg and bushbreed,

In no way was it my intention to malign Chinese society. Before 1700 in the West, it was dangerous to have an accurate understanding of celestial mechanics and understanding of Humankind’s place in the universe. I think it was Marx (?), who said, “the difference between the Catholics and the Protestants was how long they roasted their victims”.

In writing about torture, my mind turned to a particular case, from the Qing Dynasty (cited in Francis Hsu), where a daughter stuck her mother-in-law. As a consequence of this minor breach Filial Piety in a Patrimonial State, the daughter and many relatives were tortured (especially males) and the village education official exiled. In fact, my comments were highly diluted, against the sad fate many people. The point of post was the Chinese extreme response turned was inwards towards (suppression) maintenance of internal conformity. Don’t deviate, or else!

CONT./
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 26 October 2006 4:02:28 PM
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Oliver

The point is well made and is important. I am not sure, however that aberrations of enforced conformity are widely spread. The West is certainly not lacking in them, although often in the name of the State rather than social order.

Reg
Posted by Reginald, Thursday, 26 October 2006 4:52:33 PM
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/CONT.

Bushbred, responding to your contribution, I was contrasting the above in relation to the US (West) in Viet-nam, where there appears to a difference between American ideals (French, Enlightenment Thinkers Founding Fathers)and its actions abroad. External dominance.

Hence, with historical China, we have “internal” suppression of themselves, and, with the West “external” domination of others. Different loci:

The Chinese state is controlling, inhibited by instilling extreme cohesiveness. Anglo-Western states (including Oz and the US), as Reginald states, need look beyond basing all society on science, because we all can learn from Holism, which includes, but is not limited to, elements of the Chinese classics.

Globally, we do have the “magic formula”; but, we, BOTH (East/West), must drop cherished beliefs, and, be willing fuse ideas and systems. We Westerners don’t need to be Chinese. Chinese don’t to be Westerners. Not cross-over, rather fusion/melding of the best qualities. Gather the best; disregard the worse.

The Old West morphed in the New West. This is the first [global] transition. The second (next) transition is for the East [read primary China] to morph into the New East. A third (future) transition would a fusion a future neo-West and a neo-East.

Herein, modernity is not just technical; rather; technical, sociological and ideological. A pipe dream? Most likely. But a pipe dream realisable only over the next 50-150 years, during currect civilisational interregnum. Elsewise, by c. 2200-2250, the chance will be lost, if either, the West or the East, gains ascendency, before “civilizational” unification.

Metaphorically, neither Westerners nor Easterners need to change horses, we need to invent the car. Actually, improve own horses, then share the car.

Confucius was once said “one cannot see the face of the mountain from the inside”. Good advice, methinks. Bushbred, its more than American hypocrisy; Reginald, its more than the West understanding Chinese classics; Oliver [i.e., me], it is China’s heavy handed suppression of cultural descent. It is about taking a bird’s eye view of civilizations and cherry-pecking, wisely.

Peter
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 26 October 2006 5:05:22 PM
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"Confucius was once said “one cannot see the face of the mountain from the inside”. Good advice, methinks. Bushbred, IT IS MORE THAN American hypocrisy; Reginald, IT IS MORE THAN the West understanding Chinese classics; Oliver [i.e., me], IT MORE THAN China’s heavy handed suppression of cultural descent. It is about taking a bird’s eye view of civilizations and cherry-pecking, wisely." --- Oliver

Changing sides solves little. We will have the same opinions but different people.

With China/West in globalisation I put it. that Daoism has greater potential than Confucianism, as the Daoism accepts complementary positions. Perhaps, for sociological reasons, the West would need to be/or play, Ying, female, even if it isn't. To China a being Yang, the masculine, here, The Middle Kingdom. In personal human relations, when there was a thin crescent Moon, it took the Moon and nine concubines to balance the Son of Heavens, Yang. [Full Moon, the Empress and the Moon]
Posted by Oliver, Sunday, 29 October 2006 4:18:35 PM
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Pt2.

There is a Chinese saying, "there cannot be two suns in the sky. However, there is another saying, "There is only one sun in the sky and it is a Western sun". A tough one ? Howver, Daoism might just meld the seemly unrconcilable.

But China and the US need to change:

China needs to dilute, vertical deference and extend "open" horizontal altruism to other other countries. China is too controlled and secretive for its own good.

US: Nationalism is dangerous in the age of the ideological civilization: e.g., Germany fought the greater West.

The US must apprecaite it does not a stand-alone civilization, with subordinate satelitte's in coalition; it is merely the most recent centre state of Western civilization.

The US recently was the only contry in the World to vote in the UN against small arms exports. IS the States on a power-trip, and, acting like a nineteenth century state even. toward its allies
and toward seriously advanced First World countries. Acting as only the captain of the West and not whole team?

China and the US, for your own good, please get of your high horses. China please learn the advantage of sharing and openness. America you are not the only player: You have lost site of your founding [Emlightened French] ideals.

The above is meant as helpful advice not criticism. Having been to China and the States, I have geat affection of both nations. Sadly, politics and pride stand in the way of collective progress.

Come on guys; Humanity is bigger than both of you.

O.
Posted by Oliver, Sunday, 29 October 2006 4:21:37 PM
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Reg and Bushy,

cLATIFICATION: "Come on guys; Humanity is bigger than both of you." -Oliver. Guess "guys" should READ "gails". I think countries, ships and mountains (?) are feminine. Major storms are can now be male.

- China is too inward looking (bad) and is holistic (good).

- The West is outward looking (good) and is good at initiating
science (good)and pretty much ignores holism (bad)

- China expects deference (off-putting to others)

- The US wants be a state outside of the West (potentially dangerous)

>>>The US needs to centre itself with a West cognizant of holism,
while maintaining scientific method. China needs to establish itself as an "open" superpower, be less secretive and engage the world and forget Middle Kingdom bit.

No US hegemony, nor Chinese supremacy... Holism and scientific method... A pipe dream? If so, please don't wake me up. :-) "

O.
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 30 October 2006 4:41:07 PM
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