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The Forum > Article Comments > Bland, politically correct values > Comments

Bland, politically correct values : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 12/9/2006

Values education is a poor thing, a weak attempt at social engineering aimed at making us better.

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I agree mate, I think the basic Christian stories should be taught to Gen Y. We don't have to believe them but we should at least know what they are.

I don't know if this is necessarily the state's fault though. To be honest, whereas 2 generations ago, most kids would go to Sunday School, now we derive much of our moral compass from TV. The responsibility is left to the church to provide RE in schools (not to indoctrinate but inform), to hold meaningful events that engage with youth culture in the churches, and above all else, to live the life of Christian discipleship, free of the yucky hold of religion, that is so attractive to young people (i.e. people were attracted to Jesus because of who He is, let them be attracted to Christians because of who Jesus is inside them, not because of religosity).

I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing, but that the government is stepping against churches providing RE and trying to teach kids morals without teaching them why. I agree with you, its not the state's job to do this. But I think the church is to blame for not teaching kids (including outside of schools) as much as is society for becoming more hedonistic and the state for becoming more intrusive.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 8:40:15 AM
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From what I have observed of the young, once they reach level 9 of their secondary education, trying to teach them anything is in vain. Although I am not a believer (just subjected to the Judeo-Christian ethic until I was old enough to decide for myself)I think I agree with Peter Sellick.

Sadly though, I don't think it will make much difference what we try to teach, or on what that teaching is based. Several generations now have had it 'too easy'. It's a nice way to live, but there are fewer and fewer people left who actually fought and worked hard to get us the good living conditions; and more and more people who don't remember and don't care. The 'hard knocks' segment of real education is not long there.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 9:10:04 AM
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Light bulb...

Leigh, if we have it too easy, perhaps we should be exposed to what not having it easy looks like.

A lot of students go on exchanges or have gap years. Lets increase the number of exchanges to poorer countries. Let's make it financially easier for students to go on humanitarian trips in their holidays. It should be a part of growing up. The more we see how others have it, the more we learn about human beings outside of our own back yard AND the more we appreciate how easy our own country has it.

Money being pumped into this would be one governmental and/or religious venture I wouldn't be opposed to.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 9:15:12 AM
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I think that until the system acknowledges that it is not what you teach students but how you treat them that has the most significant impact and makes the most difference then nothing will change.

HOw about a values statement for the Department of Education? Take a look at how they have valued my children and family and how they have dealt with serious allegations of systemic bullying, victimisation and misconduct made about them http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/

Children learn by example. Telling them do as I say but not as I do isn't going to work.

The system has to start valuing and protecting our children as individuals first. Our children will then learn by the example.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 2:15:00 PM
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I read your blog jolanda but was very vague. what exactly happened to your children, namecalling? exclusion? That s the nature of the playground I am afraid. Kids will be kids afterall.
Posted by hells angel, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 2:47:30 PM
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hells angel I appreciate it is confusing but whilst there have been problems in the playground for the younger one, the issues that my family have with the Department involve the older three and our allegations are of systemic bias, neglect, victimisation, vilification, bullying and discrimination by the adults in the Department of Education. WE allege a conspiracy to cover the matter up.

What happened was that I made some public complaints back in the Year 2000 about the neglect of the education of gifted children and from that moment the system turned on my family and tried to discredit and defame us. My children, who are identified very highly gifted even by the DET were denied access to Opportunity Class and Selective Schools, some teachers and/or principals took it upon themselves to discredit them and me by marking them down, putting them down and publicly humiliating them.

After a number of things happened to my children and we were advised of test results that were just so low that my children said that it was impossible and that they would have to see the tests to believe them we requested documents under the FOI Act and the amount of evidence of bias, manipulation, changing of scores, presentation of incorrect scores, omissions, deletions, inconstancies and errors is alarming. There is obvious evidence of bias and misconduct.

The DET have since then allowed those responsible to deal with the complaints and applications to do with my family and as a result my children have continued to be targeted. The Selective Schools Unit have presented a tale based on lies to anybody who asked and they have just accepted the lies on face value and this is despite the fact that the evidence clearly shows that the Department is not telling the truth.

They have been manipulating my children’s test marks and documents and targeting my children in order to ruin their reputation and to deny them opportunities and in order to deny them the education that they are not only identified as needing but that they deserved.

It’s culpable neglect.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:05:44 PM
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agree or not, we Australians are losing democracy,losing the plot,
Australians are allowing the government & churches to make the rules, most not our wishes .
we elect people to run our country,not our lives ,our home, our values, our family.
I 've reared my family,now watch as they rear theirs, am proud that they , live & teach the values they were taught.
Australians are falling into the trap, being fooled by propagander from leaders,other nations, & are too quick to follow.
We must SAY STOP, "our family" , and our own values

School is where our kids are educated , basic skills the 3 r.s, life skills, communication.acceptance
we cannot expect nor want any teacher to pass on "his/ her" values.
Religion, should be a family,personal choice.In personal time.
its a parents role not, any one else's. with decent basic schooling, kids learn, respect, communication , life skills , they should already be equipped enough to guide them through life.

Taking more from family, is creating a nation of people who are being lead maliciously, by dictators, we are allowing dictatorship to sneak in the door.

some Australians don,t take responsiblity, but they still are a minority .
Decent Australia, wake up, lets not completely give it all away,we have choices,choose your leaders wisely, walk with those that prove trust, don,t lose your identity,your right to think, choose and act.
leadership of our country,must be our choice,trust, not manipulated
we must take responsibility ,stand up be strong & say I/we are capable of decision.We all have a faith, believe, I can do,
I will do.
Giving others control, we lose our choice
We can guide, help( walk the walk) not push or drag.
STOP BLAMING OTHERS, there will always be obstacles.
however those with skills,will share their experise .STOP blaming working hours, single parenting etc.In war years people got on with life, seperated from family.
we've had depressions, families survived.
Australian,you are giving wrong people control, how will we and our off spring learn to live if you don't first learn to SURVIVE,
SURVIVE IS to THRIVE
Posted by grandkiddies, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:54:35 PM
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People are losing their concience, giving in, doing this in all that makes us a society, look at the consequences for your county's sake, cos thats where you and your family live.
Faith, Trust, Conscience & Consequences.Australians need to open their eyes.
Look around you, look at other countries, we are a good country, that is fastly losing its identity, and our real good aussie values, families, are being either tricked, misled by " the grass is greener in the other paddock.
If that is so, why are all these people coming here to live and work, if things were better where they came from.
Australians take a goood look. at what you are allowing and condoning.
Dicatorship, politically and religeously.
People come her to live,to work, to have thie families, because we are a place everyone wants and choses to be.
If we bury our heads, we will be like the others soon, running away, but think quickly , where will we run to.
We are one of the luckiest lovliest countries, that still has a chance.
Australia its up to the every day people, the me and you.
Me, my kids my 13 grandkiddies, and yours.
We 're fast losing our democracy, and so many of you are
giving it away.
I won,t give my life away or my families i will fight it to the day I die. and I hope I have the majority standing by me, those same people will stand and be counted and be responsible, will take the initiative to keep our Australia, from dictators and religious bullies.
I am a christain, have faith, don,t go to church every sunday, but I am not a hypocrit either.
I do as I say, but not as others say I must do, I have a choice.
Posted by grandkiddies, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 4:01:22 PM
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The best people to teach kids "values" are parents that's what their job is. If kids are not being tuaght "values" blame parents. I don't want your world view and you might not want my views. So that is why parent's should teach their kids. The only values that schools should teach as very general ones ant that's what they do.

Ps Hoplessness is a man who believes his god has foresaken him not a man who never believe in one in the first place.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 4:43:17 PM
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And I suppose you want your voice and "values" in the public square before all others, Sells. Well I don't. As far as I'm concerned you bear false witness.

I agree that this waffle about Australian "values" is a load of garbage, but the hypocracy of so-called Christians is not going to be any better.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 9:03:56 PM
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YngNLuvnIt suggests that "perhaps we should be exposed to what not having it easy looks like". This is an EXCELLENT idea. I believe that all students should be forced to read blog posts by Leigh, YngNLuvnIt. Jolanda and Grandkiddies. Then they'll know what SUFFERING is all about.
Posted by Johnj, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 11:47:10 PM
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I think Sellick raises a very sound argument against government imposed social engineering, but as Kenny took the words right out of my mouth - values, traditions, morality, right and wrong - IS the PRIMARY responsibility of parents - NOT schools or government!

Sadly, so many kids are learning from their parents - drunkeness, debauchery, cheating, pilfering, drugs, immorality, foul language and so on! They nearly ALL learn from their parents - it's just the quality of the teaching! Yes, train a child up in the way they should go, and though they grow old, they shall not depart from it - one way or the other!

The parents are the ones who need teaching - I am appalled at the lack of discipline (correction and training) of many parents today - and the state must share some of the blame here - parents being too scared to give their kids a smack, whilst truly abusive parents just seem to get away with it. Poor fella our country !
Posted by Flezzey, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 11:49:51 PM
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Values in Action : Faith in Action

The Values Education Study included 50 case studies involving 69 schools. Three acknowledged Service–Learning. Not much has changed with the National Framework document.

Service–Learning addresses the lack of connectedness in education and the failure to prepare students for lifelong learning and participation. Service–Learning is specifically designed to counter the isolation of learning from experience and the artificial divisions of subject matter that generates “inert knowledge”. Service–Learning challenges hierarchical pedagogy, being told what to think and do, by generating discussion about how to think and do through reflecting upon their social world and its complexities.

One of the best ways in which students nurture the link between head and heart is through community service and those who have a high level of commitment to serving others are heeding a spiritual imperative. Service helps young people experience a sense of purpose in a changing and diverse world through the experience of caring for others and taking responsibility for helping to solve social problems. Students are better able to stay in touch with their moral feelings and beliefs because caring for others helps them recognize and experience the connection between intellectual and moral beliefs and the reality of acting on those values in a real life moral situation.

A 2004 joint project of ANGLICARE Sydney, NCLS Research, Edith Cowan University and Deakin University, titled A Wellbeing and Security Study in Australia, found that the decline in the significance of the churches and changing patterns of spirituality among different age groups raised some important questions. The results showed that those who are active religiously record higher levels of wellbeing in some areas, particularly in terms of a sense of purpose in life and involvement in caring activities. The authors of the study question whether the decline in religious life in Australia contributes to a loss of the fabric of individual and community wellbeing that has supported us well in times past.

This is an excerpt of the complete article that appears in the Spring 2006 issue of EQ Australia

Visit http://www.service-learning.com.au for more information.
Posted by SLA, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 6:26:06 AM
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Why should values be taught only by the church? of course SOME values must be taught ONLY by churches, that is, religion and spirituality, government has no place there.

But what about justice? Justice is what we expect our government to enforce, justice is a virtue of political institutions. Governemnt also has to be democratic. Democracy is also a virtue of institutions. We also expect our governemnt to treat all individuals with equal respect.

These are political values, not values which pertain strictly to the private lives of individuals. These are values all citizens need to endorse if our political institutions are to flourish AS just, democratic institutions which respect all humans.

So WHY on earth should the values of justice, democracy and respect for humanity not be taught to children in our public schools? why should the church alone teach that? they can teach it, too, they are most welcome, but why should governemnt not do it, too? Indeed, would they not be failing their duty if they did not?

I don't want governemnt to tell my kids how they should live their lives, their religion, their sexuality, their morality, but for what concerns the public life of our countries, for what concerns the POLITICAL values of our society I expect government to teach kids to want justice, to protect democracy and respect humanity. Why should it not? I want my kids to be taught to be good citizens.

And if things like justice, feedom and respect for our fellow humans cannot put a fire in the belly of our kids, if we cannot teach them to see the importance and beauty of these values then we have to be concerned, very concerned at the way we teach these kids. There is nothing bland about these virtues, they are powerful and beautiful ideals which have motivated people all over the world, to the point of giving up their lives for them.

We do not need religion for that, these are values that we should all passionately support regardless of what religion, if any, we practice.
Posted by Schmuck, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 8:10:55 AM
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Dear Shmuky
the values taught be the Bible ARE "Justice".. that is the absolute epitomy of Biblical teaching. I emphasise that point, because you made a distinction between the government and the church, and you made that issue "justice" something kind of separating them.

Better to say "Committment to Christ" is for the Church, committment to the Nation is for government, but both would support Justice.

We need the 'Church' because in many ways it is a prophet calling the community away from darkness and into light, from evil to good.
Do governments based on 'make it up as u go' tend naturally toward good or evil ?

LABOR
"freedom, democracy and gender equality a condition of entering the country has caused OUTRAGE within the Labor Party."

Robert Ray went further, referring to promoting Australian Values to migrants and vistors.

Quote: "was not workable and undermined the party's values."

Let me see if I understand this correctly....

The leader of Labor wants:

1/ Freedom
2/ Democracy
3/ Gender equality

The party flunkies are saying this 'undermines Labors values' ...!

WHAT ? ERRR.. so what ARE Labors 'values' ? If they are not freedom democracy and gender equality, I'd love to know what they are.

And they wonder why they don't win elections.....duh
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 8:44:15 AM
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Schmuck.
My point is that values cannot be taught. Well, they can but the person remains unchanged. Descartes has infected us with the idea that thinking produces being. But being taught about justice does nothing to change the person’s problem with envy or pride or avarice. As Paul says:

“But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.” (Rom 7:17-19 NRSV)

It is this torn nature of the self that secular thinkers do not understand. They think that all we need to do is to teach our children what values they need to have and good behaviour will be the result. This is the heresy of Pelagianism, the idea that we can reform our character without any outside help.

Sure the values of the church coincide with secular values, where do you think they came from? But the way to embed those values in society is different. The secular way will only produce totalitarianism, the PC state. Law will prevail. It is the genius of the church to see through this façade and point to the real problem, ie that we are beset all around by principalities and powers that determine our lives. We may think we are free but everywhere we are in chains. With the loss of the church we have lost the deep understanding of the condition of humanity and all we can do is make these futile attempts to use our common sense to make things better.
Posted by Sells, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 10:11:31 AM
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From my experience as an ordained minister (now thankfully retired)over the past 15 years, JUSTICE and EQUALITY are about the LAST thing that most so-called pentecostal churches and their religious right proponents want. They openly decry democracy as being of teh devil and promote Theocracy as the only way to go. And, of course, the senior minister sits at the right hand of God and everything must go past him. Even the most humble questioning of any issue that matters is interpreted as REBELLION and the poor miscreant is given a lecture or book or video to study on the subject of SEDITION.

Yes I am talking about men and women of "compassion" leading our "fastest growing" churches. Same can be said of our politicians today - question is who is influencing who? Or, are we getting the government, politicians and church leaders we subconsciously crave? Or, the leaders we subconsciously believe we deserve?

USA and UK look much the same. Is it the "dumbing down" of our education systems to produce deaf, dumb and blind mutes (serfs?): people who don't know better? Is it our Audio-visual generation, why don't more people stand up against this crap
Posted by Flezzey, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 11:19:37 AM
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The problem here is not nearly so complex.

Shoving another politically correct values subject into public schools isn't going to help the situation. Schools have been subjected to too much of this already, crowding out the important core subjects, which now receive less attention to make way.

The issues of values lie squarely with parents. You can't keep passing the buck to teachers. They are there to teach children, not to rear them.

Though it's easier to pass it to teachers, when parents aren't fulfilling their responsibilities.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 12:12:58 PM
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Flezzey, I have no time for fundamentalists, but do they really “openly decry democracy as being of the devil”. If it is indeed “open”, perhaps you can supply evidence.

Sells, I agree with your main point, that values education cut off from an underlying narrative is unlikely to take root or transform behaviour. But you may be too quick to dismiss secular culture’s capacity to embed its values in narratives. This is surely what the history wars and current debate about Australian values are all about. Controversy about the selection and presentation of the central Australian historical myths – Gallipoli and the Eureka stockade, the first fleet and terra nullius, the light on the hill and Ned Kelly, the rejection of conscription and England’s perfidy during and after the fall of Singapore – is in essence a battleground about current values, not past events.

Whether these are wholesome or satisfactory narratives is another question.
Posted by Rhian, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 3:51:52 PM
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JohnJ... random... why the person dislike?
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 5:33:39 PM
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I meant personal... sigh there go my two posts for this forum today.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 5:34:04 PM
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Rhian,
Good point. I do not think I have underestimated how well secular narratives become embedded. That is my point about the secular narrative of consumption, the emphasis on experience, the culture that is essentially to do with the avoidance of suffering and death etc. But these are narratives without a narrative if you will, more like ideologies than narratives derived from historical event. The reason the church gives presence to the narratives of Israel and of Jesus is that these are seen as accurately describing the human dilemma apart from ideology or religion. Of course those narratives that adhere to the nation Australia you mentioned must be important. And yet, if these narratives are interpreted to produce nationalism then we have problems. During its long history Israel realised that nationalistic narratives leads to idolatry and disaster. The nation replaces YHWH and nationalistic triumphalism then eventuates. This is certainly the situation in America, let us not follow!
Posted by Sells, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 6:11:27 PM
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Sells

Who sees the narratives of Israel and of Jesus as accurately describing the human dilemma apart from ideology or religion? Must be you and your fellow theological “scientists”.

And another gem:

“That is my point about the secular narrative of consumption, the emphasis on experience, the culture that is essentially to do with the avoidance of suffering and death etc”

And there I was thinking Jesus went around healing the sick, bringing the dead back to life. And of course people don’t pray to God for an end to their suffering, a better life.

And no doubt you would tell your flock that they have to open their hearts to Jesus in order to “experience” his love.

And of course the obvious contradiction here is that you are trying to position your beliefs as pseudo-secular narrative i.e “apart from ideology or religion”, and yet you criticise “secular narrative”.

You are a very confused and conflicted man Sells.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 13 September 2006 10:47:44 PM
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YngNLuvnIt, my apologies if you took my jibe personally, it was just meant as a joke.

I think the idea of involving youth in aid projects is a good one, but I'm suspicious of the notion that the "young people of today" have things too easy. You can trace a refrain about the decay of moral fibre in youth back to ancient Greece. To me it is just one more media-driven moral panic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Young people lack experience in the world, because they're YOUNG. One of the few advantages of getting older is having more experience to draw from. Just as well, with hair and teeth falling out, arthritis etc, there's got to be something good about getting older.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 14 September 2006 10:21:30 AM
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With the "National Framework for Values Education in Australian Schools" we just see the principles in this document are recommended guidelines for providing improved values education in schools ........ mostly integrated into subject planning and lesson development. Hardly anything extraordinary here. Of importance though, is an environment which protects the emotional, psychological and physical well-being of students because education is about developmental learning, thinking, exploring. Note that values education is not about being told morally irresponsible lies where all these religious infected types love the idea of 'miracles' and are very credulous about supernaturalist stories along with evangelical myth-making. It's a chilling fact that 99% of all private schools are religious based and as such highly value sheer superstition. ......... which renders their following easy prey for the cash-extracting stage.

On a positive note, I suspect that we humans share many unconscious yearnings and that the freedom to follow our intellectual curiosities is one of the greatest. My thoughts are that a unique spirit develops and grows as an integral aspect of each living being, is a physical process, not a miracle nor some break in the fabric of causation. This spirit implies intelligence, consciousness and sentience. There needs to be a correctness. If we consider that we live in co-evolution with what our brains produce then our greatest potential lies in better learning how to learn where the true diversity is diversity of thought, of perspective and of creativity. Rather than assuming that our minds are like savings banks that we or someone else, just make bland deposits to, we need to actively find true diversity which includes an ability to adopt a framework of perspectives that can be inquiring, analytical, critical and evaluative.

Whilst we may be able to describe values we should speak of roles rather than goals.
Posted by Keiran, Thursday, 14 September 2006 2:55:20 PM
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RHIAN

Not published evidence my friend, but you can choose to believe what I say or not - I have heard it preached from pulpits across this country - I was a travelling ministry and have both spoken in and visited hundreds of churches many many times. Also comes up in private conversation and in Bible colleges, where I have also been both a student and a teacher.

Wait, the most recent time I heard it was a couple of weeks ago on Rhema - Derek Prince lecture. I further back up my statements with the heavy control mechanisms in most pente churches and, as I said previously, just try questioning a senior minister on ethical or theological issues - you will find out pretty quickly! Try talking about helping the poor, or bringing ex-convicts and prostitutes in to their churches. That's what my wife and I did for 15 years - these folk are not welcome in too many pente churches mate - heard too many Snr Pastors talk about the need to evangelise more middle class and rich people - for their tithes and offerings to help build the church.

Nowhere did Jesus say we were to do this - he said He would build His Church! Too many times for me mate, sorry to say. It's not what their website and Statement of Doctrine says - what they preach and more especially, how they practise their reeligion shouts so loud you cannot hear what they say! Pharisees my friend - there are as many today as in Jesus time - percentage wise!
Posted by Flezzey, Thursday, 14 September 2006 6:12:59 PM
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Flezzey, so sorry to hear the kind of response you got from pente "ministers". I honestly believe God will judge ministers who do the job for the sake of the job, wanting to line their pockets with cash without seeing God changes their lives and hearts. (You know how in 1 Corinthians, it talks about Christian's works being tested "with fire". Symbolically, some will have all their works burnt up. I think that includes those who spent their ministry ministering to themselves rather than to God's heart).

I assume these ministers have not read the bit in the NT where it says not to give preferential treatment to a person on the basis of their money. Or the section of Matthew, that says if you haven't fed the hungry, clothed the poor, visited the sick/in prison, you have not known Jesus. Or the bits where Jesus called people white-washed tombs for being religious and accepting man's praise on the outside, but not allowing God's laws to be written on their hearts (mercy and compassion, without leaving the other stuff undone).

Sometimes I think the biggest threat to the church is the church. But Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Let's face it, the church (collective noun for Christians around the world) is comprised of a bunch of people claiming to be disciplined followers of Christ. We're human and we stuff up. It's a wonder we do anything for God's glory considering our own human limitations sometimes. But I do think there is hope for the church . Probably the more the church is persecuted, the more it will grow to be like Christ. That's what happened in Acts anyway.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Thursday, 14 September 2006 10:33:29 PM
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No problems JohnJ. I myself am in this generation (I'm 19) so I can't really compare my experiences to the first-hand experience of any previous generation in Australia.
I went overseas for three months last year doing some humanitarian work and it totally changed my life. My desire to do it was born through compassion and faith, but now the personal experience has made my desire to see humanitarian change so much more important. I'm looking forward to pursuing a medical career that will take me with many NGOs into third world nations.
Considering the kind of effect it has had on me, I would welcome this kind of trip with almost anyone. It could be based on humanity or the environment- either way, its that experience of getting out of your comfort zone to care about someone else/something else above yourself for a while.
Posted by YngNLuvnIt, Thursday, 14 September 2006 10:33:51 PM
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I am rather puzzled about how to respond to this article. As a recently qualified teacher who is also an evangelical Christian, it seems to lack relevance or any measure of positivity. I know nothing of this author, so I went to his homepage and read some of his other articles. Is he being paid to produce this negative garbage? Has he a real relationship with Jesus Christ, or is he just a religious relic of Godless clericalism? To make issues of such trivia as what people name their babies. The almost incoherent story of the 'Manley' ferry experience, and then the scathing attempt at devaluing our Australia day honors awards. No wonder many are turned away from Christianity with such whinging Pharisees around!

Now for the debate on Values education. As a new teacher, I have been impressed by the attitude of my colleagues in this area. I know they are striving hard to make a difference in a decaying society. Sellick's crass belittling of those who endeavour to make a difference in the lives of Australia's teenagers is unwarranted. Christian and non-Christian teachers stand hand-to-hand on this and if he wants evidence, I could fill this forum with respondents. Waving the much-touted 'Judeo-Christian tradition' flag will not help. The best way that we can make a difference is to model and teach the values themselves. Isn't it better to express our Christianity by our practice - rather than preaching and proclaiming?

A good example of how values education works is the visit to Australian schools by Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, victim of the Columbine massacre. Visitors to this forum may wish to check out the website: http://www.rachelscott.com. Darrell didn't go on about Judeo-Christian tradition, or even about accepting Jesus Christ, he just left a message about a chain reaction of forgiveness that impacted the students' lives in a way that I have never seen before. I have been severe in this criticism and I expect to receive censure, but I am not an armchair Christian, I am out there where the rubber meets the road.
Posted by graceal0ne, Friday, 15 September 2006 11:54:24 PM
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graceal0ne

Thank you for your heart felt post.

Most of the Christian posters to OLO are very judgemental, having been so judged by these people, I found your remarks very refreshing and agree with all your sentiments.

Clearly religious and non-religious should work together for all our children.

Regards

PS I hope you continue to post here at OLO
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 16 September 2006 8:50:14 AM
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Yes gracealOne,

I too found your post different from most of the Christian posters and a bit of a breath of fresh air.

The problem for the author I think, is that he is a scientist and Christian, and the evidential requirements for each of those mind sets conflict, so he is forever trying to show how his religious faith (which by nature is a belief in something that can't be proven) is compatible with science (which by nature is disbelief until something is "proven" beyond reasonable doubt - which can then be revised).

What your post reveals is that it is not 'Judeo-Christian' or 'Australian' values that we should be teaching our children (and of course, living ourselves) but the best 'human' values. The problem however, is not with individuals or even groups within society, it is with a political and economic system which "values" profit over anything else. Any 'values' which conflict with such a system must, if that system is considered 'rational', be shown to be wrong.

Kids are not stupid. If we tell them one thing, while they see that the other thing is 'true' in real life, they can spot it a mile off.

The key is to bring our social, political and economic system into line with human needs and 'values'.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 16 September 2006 11:28:36 AM
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Thank you guys
I have to confess, I am not exactly the dyed-in-the-wool judgemental Christian although I was brought up to be such. In my view, being a little more lateral in my outlook is a lot more effective way of living my faith.

Today I had the opportunity to be involved in a 'School-Yard Blitz.' This involved 550 volunteers from the community, of whom 480 were from churches, getting out and getting our hands dirty together. Bikies, business people, teachers, parents, ministers, tradespeople and caterers - all with the same values of simply doing good.

Did it weaken the testimony of those of us who are Christians? I think not! Did it strengthen our community and provide an example for the youth of today to follow? I am sure! The aging dilapidated primary school is being totally refurbished. What a values message for those dear children when they return. On every face was a smile and on everyone's lips a kind greeting. I didn't see anyone there preaching, although I did see some signs that read something like, 'We give because so much has been given to us.'
Posted by graceal0ne, Saturday, 16 September 2006 2:00:49 PM
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Grace1 and Flezzy

good posts.

Flezzy, I'm glad you see those home truths about some Pente churches.
It is a by product of the 'pipeline to heaven' attitude that tends to prevail in many of them. Strict authoritarian discipline also appears to be a characteristic. Not all, but indeed a significant number.

Grace.. I hope you DO bring many of your teaching friends to this forum. I'm sure the exchange of ideas would be good for all of us.

Judgementalism is something we should avoid. I'm sorry you were raised to be that. There is a difference between speaking the truth in love, or.. even in anger, and 'judgementalism'. The pharisee who prayed 'with himself' .. "Oh God, I thank you that I am NOT like that evil tax collector over there" is indicative of 'judgementalism' whereas the tax collectors prayer "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner" was heard by God.

Paul spoke plainly to the Corinthians about their immorality and we also need to be vigilant (for our own sakes as much as anything). Our Lord spoke in a no-nonsense manner to the Laodicean church. So there is a place for criticism, but not 'judgementalism' in the manner of that Pharisee.....

Flezzy, fortunately, the presense of 'pharisees' does not mean that the Lord is not building His Church... remember the wheat and the weeds mate. Look to Him...not to a sad manifestation of 'The Church'.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 16 September 2006 7:18:07 PM
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1. Leigh needs to get outmore - I know countless kids who are supporting themselves through university -working two jobs - paying rent buying books the whole shebang - simialrly therea re kids who ahve just had 20% of there take home pay "disspaeared"by work choices -

2. As for values - this debate is a smoke screen -
Posted by INKEEMAGEE2, Sunday, 17 September 2006 2:19:16 PM
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After reading the last post, I am inspired to comment to both disagree with and support Leigh's statements. To state that, "Once the young reach level 9 of their secondary education, trying to teach them anything is in vain," indicates that his observations may be biased or limited. For generations, teachers have known that this is the common age when students actually start to be able to control their raging adolescent temperaments and settle down to learning again.

However, I support his comment that, "There are fewer and fewer people left who actually fought and worked hard to get us the good living conditions." In response to INKEEMAGEE2, I also supported myself completely through University for 5 years and graduated last year. Yes, I had to work as well, but that's life. I also think that many students who choose to move out of home have made a choice to financially support themselves and they have to deal with that.

Finally, INKEEMAGEE2, I do not want to appear too sarcastic, but I wonder about the quality of education you received. It appears it was a bit short on spelling, grammar and persuasive writing skills. Hopefully, they di teach you some values.
Posted by graceal0ne, Sunday, 17 September 2006 3:05:23 PM
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This Values Education in Australian Schools programme is designed to foster and support improved values education practice in Australian schools.... a federal initiative probably kicked off by Schnelson and now with twitty Bishop. Peter's article has had me reading up on this matter. There are vision statements, national goals, national frameworks, guiding principles, key elements, suggested approaches, glossaries and now some successful participating school clusters to try it out with funding.

Whilst the spin suggests these are about common values it does not draw distinctions on public concerns. In fact there is no mention of public anything in all that I have read. The measure of a society in anyone's value system would place significant emphasis on the core public institutions; public transport and infrastructure; public health; public schooling, education, museums, galleries, libraries; public places, spaces, parks, reserves, beaches, sporting fields, and so on. Then there are public procedures and processes important for maintaining and deepening public trust for ensuring active, participatory democracy that enrich our public life at the local, national and global levels.

In an age of aggressive spin doctoring, diminishing media independence and critique, citizens are often separated from the full story about public concerns. With the current crop of governments it seems that the word "public" is a dirty word. Underfunding and privatisation of vital public services are made behind closed doors in ways that are largely perceived to be undemocratic and herein lies the crux of the democracy deficit. Is Australia to become a value free nation of renters who live in gated communities? There are plenty of "champs" out there in Howard's Australia that would love this trophy life style .....but ..... The difference between champ and chump is U.
Posted by Keiran, Sunday, 17 September 2006 10:07:22 PM
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Good posting, Kieran.

I think for a more informed view on this issue, readers would be well served by looking at: http://studentwork.hss.uts.edu.au/oj1/swerve05/nelsoneducation/values.htm

Teachers in our State schools were incensed that the Prime Minister indicated that public schools do not teach traditional values. Howard criticised the state school system for being both "too politically correct" and "too values neutral". (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/01/19/1074360697635.html)

Goodness, where have I heard the former expression before? It becomes rather confusing when Sellick brands Nelson's document with the same weakness that Howard claims it seeks to address. It is a pity that the good teachers don't write policy instead of paper-shuffling bureaucrats, but I guess they are better off out there doing their job and being blamed for the obvious inadequacies of a politically-driven system.
Posted by graceal0ne, Sunday, 17 September 2006 10:44:55 PM
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Peter I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I agree the program is a waste of money.

One thing you should be corrected on.

Democracy has nothing to do with the cult of Christianity. Christianity was designed to justify warlords being crowned as kings. Throughout Christian domination politics was based on feudal dictatorships. The only political social organisation that Christianity gave rise to was early forms of communism.

Democracy occured only where pagan beliefs were deeply intrenched in local culture , such as was found in the British Isles.

I dont understand why you claim the National Framework for Values Education in Australian Schools is politically correct? The term political correctness has been so saturated with lies and myth by racist, religious and all sorts of self interest groups to attack so much of social justice that the term no longer holds meaning. Rather using it exposes a veiled attack.

It is rather obvious your agenda is to over ride social justice and push Christian values. I would ask you to consider that for many Australians who hold egalitarian values Christian Values are considered immoral as they are considered exclusionary ,bigoted , mysoginist and superstition based.

Although religious values may have a place in the privacy of ones home or shrine , it is immoral to push religious values onto the public. Especially onto school children.
Posted by West, Wednesday, 20 September 2006 12:52:46 PM
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West, I totally agree that, 'democracy has nothing to do with Christianity. However, I take strong exception to your reference to 'the cult of Christianity'. Firstly, I don’t believe that history tells us that it was 'designed', it just developed from an unassailable popular following of a man called Jesus. Centuries of attempts to wipe it out in so many times and cultures have resulted in a third of the world's population embracing Christianity. A world-wide cult? How many opinions within that 'cult'? According to Wikipedia, 'In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream.'

I also dispute that 'democracy occured only where pagan beliefs were deeply intrenched in local culture.' I am no student of political science, but I understand that the Britain you cite as an example began to accept democracy as a result of a process of change that began with the implementation of an oligarchic system from the time of the Magna Carta. I believe that Britain did not become a democracy in the true sense of the word until 1832. One might argue that religious influences such as the rule of the Puritan Cromwell would have just as much influence in developing a democratic culture.

For myself, I hold egalitarian values alongside Christian values and find them quite compatible. When you refer to 'exclusionary, bigoted, mysoginist and superstition based' values, I suggest that you refer to groups such as the gallivanting Exclusive Brethren, not the humble followers of the Good Samaritan.

Finally, you state that it is 'immoral to push religious values onto the public'. I agree, but I think these values should be taught. Having been in South East Asia recently, I was impressed by the understanding and demonstration of tolerance that Buddhists have. If tolerance is (hopefully) a value that is needed in our society, maybe understanding religious culture is a tangible way of helping children appreciate it.
Posted by graceal0ne, Wednesday, 20 September 2006 2:04:14 PM
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GracealOne a cult is a system of worship. By your definition somehow a cult is no longer a cult when it meets some range of critical mass. Even if that were true if you added all the people who have ever existed only a minority that have ever been existed were Christians , so even by your definition Christianity is still a cult.

As for designed , it is no secret Christianity was developed and manipulated to serve poltical power. I suggest you review the entire history of Christianity and indeed Hebrew history as well. Religion is designed by people to serve the interests of its designers. Christianity is not alone all religion is a product of this.

As far as Jesus is concerned. There is no evidence Jesus existed so the question of anything he did or stood for is irrelevant and any suggestion he did or was symbolic of anything is a product of imagination or conjecture.

As far as the values of Christianity. Christians (and according to the bible Christ) believe non-believers are not saved (on their terms) , this is exclusionary. Although many Christians deny it this affects how they judge and treat other people. The article is a good example of this. Somehow Christian ideology is more important than anybody elses views (this is bigotted) and children should be instructed to the beliefs of the religion even though many if not most are not Christian.

Can that be harmful to society? Yes it can. It is a form of ethnic cleansing to force a dominant religion on children. As a Christian would you want your Children instructed in the values of the Aztecs?
Posted by West, Wednesday, 20 September 2006 4:31:55 PM
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West, I really must respond to your poorly-contrived arguments before you are besieged by about 96% of the world's population (those who are not atheist). The definition of a cult is not my own but conforms to the main definition of the word by those who use a dictionary.

As for your conspiracy theory on religion, I find it fascinating.

"There is no evidence Jesus existed." Muslims and Jews would also contest this. Maybe you should do some reading before publishing unreferenced opinion.

As with any religion, I agree that Christians view their 'ideology' (for which I substitute 'theology) as correct, but for a 'bigotted' point of view, have a look at your own.

"Can that be harmful to society?" What position are you going to take? Atheism - a viewpoint of little more than 4% of the world's population? I believe that a holistic education would not avoid presenting values, whether they are branded as of a religious origin or not.
Posted by graceal0ne, Wednesday, 20 September 2006 5:09:20 PM
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gracealOne,

Where do you get your figures of 96% non-atheist and 4% atheist?

What about those who have been brought up in a religious or spiritual culture and have not been given alternative explanations for the world, or an opportunity to develop an atheistic world view? Where do they fit on the spectrum? What about agnosticism?

Does the fact that the majority of the world's people live in abject poverty with little ability to control their lives influence their propensity to believe in outside controller?

Does a majority of "non-atheists" mean that what they believe in is true?
Posted by tao, Saturday, 23 September 2006 2:55:08 PM
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gracealOne first of all I suggest you consult the Oxford dictionary for the definition of cult. Infact I suggest you simply look up the definition of cult on any reputable online dictionary.

As for 4% of the world being Atheist, I would like to know where you got that figure. May I remind you in some Muslim countries it is an offence for persons born into Islam to be atheist, or to convert to other religions and so those who do not hold Islamic beliefs, keep it to themselves. I have also met a multitude of Christians who will not admit others are Atheist.

As for evidence that Jesus existed there is no real evidence. As a product of myth Jesus remains elusive and vague.

I did not say I was Atheist but you attacked the poor Atheists anyway. This is bigotry against Atheists. This is exactly what I said in my earlier post. “As far as the values of Christianity. Christians (and according to the bible Christ) believe non-believers are not saved (on their terms) , this is exclusionary. Although many Christians deny it this affects how they judge and treat other people. The article is a good example of this. Somehow Christian ideology is more important than anybody else’s views (this is bigoted) and children should be instructed to the beliefs of the religion even though many if not most are not Christian.”

Again it is a form of ethnic cleansing to force a dominant religion on children. Even if you were right and a majority of people in Australia were Christian (where is your evidence?) it is still not right for Australian children to be subjected to Christian values in school. It protects children of Christian parents too because sooner or later another ideology will become dominant. What is important is that children are brought up to live in the real world and not a fantasy world based on myth.
Posted by West, Sunday, 24 September 2006 8:40:39 AM
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It appears that I was wrong. Let us then go with your opinion and abolish those values which are attributed to Christianity. Let's start with getting rid of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Maybe we could throw in a few more for good measure like acceptance, forgiveness, grace and justice.

Of course there is no evidence that Jesus existed - the history books are all wrong and thousands of people like myself have just had experiences that were pure imagination. And history must all be rewritten to prove that Jesus did not exist, nor did the Holocaust or the planes flying into the World Trade Centre.

As far as statistics are concerned, sites like www.adherents.com who provide statistics for the likes of Encyclopedia Brittanica are disbelievable also. And everybody knows that cults are all mainstream!

I realise that I am wasting my time on this thread, so goodbye and have fun proving me wrong, but please provide references in case you mislead anyone else.
Posted by graceal0ne, Sunday, 24 September 2006 4:56:29 PM
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Sorry gracealOne I feel I have to respond because of the dubious sources you are getting your information from. www.adherents.com is a Christian propaganda site and has no validity. It draws conclusions based on the inherent bigotry which believers hold. The purpose of that site is to reinforce beliefs not to inform.

History books based on reality do not support the existence of Jesus. There is no witness of Jesus by public records of the Roman or Judean governments or the neighbours of Judea at the time Jesus was supposed to have existed. Pilate presented no mention of Jesus in his reports to Rome. No contemporaries mentioned Jesus in stories, journals, inventories or letters. There are no artefacts of Jesus. The tale of Jesus by some great coincidence is the story of the Roman military deity of Chrisos. There is however a large industry of inventing history by Christian writers. Perhaps you are confused with religious publications as you confused www.adherents.com with a valid site.

As for those values you attribute to Christianity. Such values are empty words as an attempt to justify beliefs; they are not the core beliefs of Christianity. Such values are no more than product commercials such as work free stain removal. They are values of any caring person. However if we review the history of Christianity, the wars, the social divisions, persecution ,witch hunting, the ethnic cleansing of European pagans, the Americas , Africa , Australia and the Pacific. The integrity of most of the churches, the integrity of Christian based political parties, the actions of Christian politicians, the manipulation of history and information, even the exclusionism taught by Jesus in the Bible. None of the values you claim are present in Christianity. Of course individuals may hold those values you claim, but I argue they may hold those values in spite of Christian beliefs not because of them. When Christian values are taught what is taught is authoritarianism, exclusionism and paternalism.

Even so, even if there was one non-Christian child it would still be ethnic cleansing to push Christian values onto that child.
Posted by West, Monday, 25 September 2006 10:50:49 AM
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Well said West.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 10:40:24 PM
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I find it very refreshing that we live in a country and society where we can ALL place our opinions in the public forum. Whether this freedom was made possible by Christianity or Democracy or past leaders viewing religious control with a jaundiced eye and moving outside the control of the priests is irrelevant.

We must all make sure that no one group gets in control as happens in other less enlightened or well educated countries/societies.

Teaching our children life skills is everyone's job by example. The best way to do this is by public comunity service. Unfortunately our Government is making life very difficult for community service groups to function. Try being a Scout leader, chairman of the local church committee or other volunteer organization and see what onerous, legally binding responsibilities are placed on you.

One other excellent way to get children to develop morals, codes of ethics, tollerance and to appreciate this wonderful country is to show them what other places are like as discussed earlier in the comments.

Keep up the discussion
Posted by Guy V, Thursday, 15 February 2007 10:32:17 AM
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After putting up with Anglican school children and Catholic school Children fighting and abusing each other on public transport this afternoon I cant agree with you at all Guy V.

The reality is superstitious cults will divide into sects and competition to speak and think for gods and spirits in order to control a group creates tribalism.

Each group choses what it decides is an order of community which it deams below them a group to persecute. This is always justified by occult literature such as the bible.

This is the reason why the religious community are the most disrespectful people. Like one antagonist threatened to a member of of an opposing sect 'I am saved you will go to hell , who cares about you?'and I am certain he will sleep soundly self justified by the dogma of his superstition. The worst thing that disgusts me is now we have children fighting for their religions political agenda.
Posted by West, Thursday, 15 February 2007 5:36:30 PM
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