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The Forum > Article Comments > Reconcile or count the cost > Comments

Reconcile or count the cost : Comments

By Ted Lapkin, published 18/7/2006

Israel has a moral right to defend itself against brutal jihadists.

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Thanks Ted for a voice of reason in a sea of left-wing peacenik insanity
Posted by jeremy29, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 9:20:38 AM
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When two parties both believe that the other is a fault then there is little hope for peace. The way the world peace rolls off this Author tongue indicates he not ready to give up on the methods of the last 50 years that have not led to peace. Israel has done another to support secular democratic parties in the states around them in fact the opposite so it is no wonder that the people flock to radical parties, it's a easy message to get across.
The IDF could not get rid of the groups and it shouldn't hold the new Lebanese gov and people to collective punishment for not being able to.
Work brings peace.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 9:23:22 AM
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Ted, good try, but as long as you believe in god and have a holy land, you will always have the most violent wars. Isn't it a bit strange that your most holy place on the earth is the most violent, I don't see any atheists or communists promoting this continuous act of barbarism between all god factions.

Its irrelevant as to who has the right to be there, the factual truth is, your all despotic and destructive to the end. Considering you all come from the same family, only reinforces the dismal veracity of your claims to the ethical high ground. All monotheists are the problem, your so unevolved and Neanderthal in your understanding, we can expect nothing else. If monotheists aren't abusing kids, their killing them then demand their flock produce more kids for cannon fodder.

Your god sure has a weird sense of love, considering 100% of his holy land is at war and 100% of gods own country, (USA) is at war with the rest of the world economically and physically. Nor can we escape the facts that it has never been any different.

Ted I only feel sorry for all the children not yet indoctrinated to monotheistic violence who are about to be touched by the loving hand of god in the form of violence and death. A most loving god you have, always come to the aid of the oppressed and saves them from the despots. Or is it, god always deceives the oppressed, then hands them over to its current ruling despots.
Posted by The alchemist, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 9:32:51 AM
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speaking of left-wing peacenik insanity
Posted by Alan Grey, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 9:32:52 AM
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Those night-time pyrotechnics are evocative of Baghdad. Why?

Would someone be so kind as to find out if the IDF are using depleted uranium ordnance?

- because if they are, all moral equivalence goes out the window.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 10:33:50 AM
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Typical Ted Israel can do no wrong,dont matter about anything stealing land ,ect Israel and do no wrong,as long as the US agrees
Posted by j5o6hn, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 10:45:09 AM
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Chris, very little need for depleted uranium in aerial bombardment. However, if it becomes necessary for Israel to go in on the ground, there APFSDS rounds are the same as those used by the USA, which they would be given that Merkeva MkII uses the same German made cannon. These rounds probably won't be necessary unless Syria becomes involved, but I suggest in that scenario, depleted uranium will be the least of their worries, as its non-depleted brother will be flying about.

For the others, finally an author willing to talk about the actual laws of armed conflict. Proportionality is insane in war, it only extends the conflict, leading to excessive casualties on both sides. Anyway what is proportionality, should Israel limit itself to precisely the same quantity of unguided missiles per day as the opposition fires? Israel has tried restraint, and had no reply from either HAMAS or Hizbollah, now as a democracy when the majority of the people say to act to prevent the shelling, the government and thus the army have no choice but to do so.

Israel is attacking the infrastructure in order to ensure that their enemy cannot get away (lets face it they do run away awful quick), and also to ensure that no further major ammunition supplies can be provided (also reinforcements). However, aerial / artillery bombardment is incapable of fixing the current issue, that will require a ground assault, only infantry can actually seize ground and hold it, thereby denying it to the enemy. This fight has only just started, although I would not think that it is necessary for Israel to stay in either Lebanon or Gaza for any extended period (& I would be suprised if they wanted to).

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 10:50:01 AM
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Ted,
Does this mean that North Korea has the right to defend herself against the holder of the majority of the world's nuclear weapons of mass destruction, and has been the only country in history to actually use them?
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 11:30:11 AM
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"Israel has a right to defend itself against brutal jihadists"

Okay. Fine

"Jihadists have a right to defend themselves against brutal Israel."

Sure, why not. There's another take.

"Israel has a right to bomb civilian locations in the hope of getting jihadists"

Okey dokey.

"Brutal jihadists have a right to bomb shopping malls in retaliation for Israeli attacks"

Fair enough..... wait... no it isn't. None of it is.

Violence is violence. Just depends where you're sitting.

I honestly think the best 'terrorist' act anybody could do would be to destroy all the religious sites in the middle east - I've visited the wailing wall, and seen the dome of the rock that lies just beyond. We'd be better off without both.

I know that is harsh, and we'd lose plenty of valuable history, but it's not worth valuable lives. If both sides are going to act childish, their toys should be taken away from them.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 11:47:42 AM
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Ted get real. All this killing, supposedly, over two or three soldiers who signed up to do battle. Willing combatants. But then again what else can you expect when Jews like Rabbi Yaacov Perrin say things like “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish Finger Nail.” (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6)

Apparently, to the right wing Israeli government the Lebanese, mostly Catholic, population are not thought very highly of either. Mind you I don’t doubt for a second that given the wherewithal Hezbollah would do the same.

We also need to keep in mind here the Israelis who are opposing the war. One Israeli person protesting the war held a sign up which read: “Stop the madness”. Agreed.

In Vietnam two million civilians were slaughtered. One million soldiers were killed fighting for god knows what. (Stay with me). Most of the soldiers from both sides were forced or coerced into fighting. I haven’t a clue how many actually made a free, democratic, un-coerced, properly-informed decision to die for their country. None of them should have been put in that position in the first place. War itself is wrong.

The news coverage of Vietnam was constant. Hours of analysis and coommentary.

Just after the withdrawal, Pol Pot started his “final solution”. The three major US networks devoted a total of 29 minutes to this event in which millions died. The newsworthiness is self-evident; the reason for the neglect is open to conjecture.
I think, it is because, for the USA rulers, one million Cambodians dying at the hands of a supposed communist was just too good a propaganda opportunity.

Given that Israel is populated by a lot of repatriated USA citizens, who are allowed dual citizenship for Israel’s people (and not for Germans), I tend to think that Israel is more American than Judaist, more Zionist than Judaist, and too powerful and right wing; and thus contribute to a greater extent to the dysfunctional, callous and inhumane behaviour in the area. Like the US , it has no real concern for humans, for the blood and bone.

cont
Posted by rancitas, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 12:42:26 PM
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Last night on SBS I watched the footage of the air strike on a Hezbollah rocket launcher. Three times they played the same footage. Israel the great defender that doesn’t kill innocents seemed to be the spin.

Then the ABC had their report. On the ground amongst all the dead civilians (150), destroyed homes and infrastructure, the reporter pleading to get them out of there. Non combatants dead because their lives weren’t as important as Israel’s need to terrorise the Lebanese people into falling into line.

Then there is the cruel absurdity of dropping leaflets telling people that they should leave their homes and then bombing all the roads, airports out of the city. Is that some sort of Israeli rulers’ joke or is some sort of fetish telling people they are doomed? Part of the terror? All to save two willing fighters. Ted Lapkin you encourage the madness. I agree with the Israeli peace activist : “Stop the madness.”

Paddy’s Lament (tradtional Irish)

Hear ye boys,
now take my advice.
To America I'll have you
not be coming.
There is nothing here but war
where the murdering cannons roar
and I wish I was at home
In dear old Dublin.

Well meself and a hundred more
To america sailed o'er
Our fortunes to be makin',
we were thinkin'.
When we got to yankee land
They put guns into our hand,
saying "Paddy, you must go
and fight for Lincoln."

Hear ye boys,
Now take my advice,
To America (Israel) I'll have you
not be coming.
There is nothing here but war
where the murdering cannons roar
And I wish I was at home
in dear old Boston.

end

Taken their factories off shore and now their batttle fields.

Nothings changed Paddy. You guys can parody this ya’self.
Posted by rancitas, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 12:46:42 PM
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Down with America and Jews. Long live peaceful Hezbollah.
Posted by EnerGee, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 1:08:02 PM
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Ted's views are predictable.

Two main comments:

1. The phrase "collateral casualties" (he used) is an unfortunate military/industrial excuse for excessive and inhuman killing by conventional forces.

The "righteousness" of using conventional forces (particularly aerial bombing) has become a morally lazy assumption of Western countries (including Israel). In contrast bombs delivered on the ground (by hand or body) are considered inherently immoral.

Admittedly Hizbullah's missiles are confusing this asymmetric dichotomy.

2. The scale of Israeli attacks in Lebanon suggests a wider purpose of escalating the war to draw Syria and Iran into it.

Israel is claiming that Hizbullah and some alleged Iranian agents (which Israel dramitically labels "Revolutionary Guards") are fighting an Iranian proxy war against Israel. The claim can then be made that if Hizbullah in future receives Iranian nuclear weapons, nuclear war with Israel will result – with catastrophic implications for US/Western interests in the Middle East (including oil shortages).

Iran's fiery words alone have been seen internationally as insufficient to justify the bombing of Iran’s nuclear facilities. However if Iran can be seen as a participant/instigator of a "war on Israel" then the long anticipated Israeli/US bombing of Iran might be seen as a justified act to "preempt possible Iranian nuclear aggression".

For some US centrist comments on an Aussie blog article see http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Plantagenet
aka Spooky Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 1:27:55 PM
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It's rather foolish to believe that anybody here supports the so called terror groups but many of us don't support what Israel is doing either. Those with a blinded one eyed view of the world will call us supporters of terror because they are the ends justify the means. the only way we will win the war on terror is to do two things.
1. Up hold the rule of law without fear or favour.
2. Don't use terror ourselves.

I'll give you a hint a child being killed by a bomb strapped to a person on a bus or bomb from a war plane ends the same way and is just as bad. In WW2 both side carpet bombed cities yet some believe the other side used terror and they didn't.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 1:28:26 PM
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It always comes as a shock to the likes of Ted but it was not Hezbollah or Hamas who sent 6 million Jewish refugees to the gas chambers yet it is muslims all around who pay the price of the west in that holocaust.

I presume Ted agrees that Iraq has the right to defend herself against the invaders from the US, UK and Australia? Or Afghanistan the right to protect herself from the 32 nations with soldiers on the ground? What about the West Papuans against the Indonesian army murdering thugs?

Come off it Ted, Israel is not about the poor down trodden Jews who survived the holocaust anymore - most of the Israelis have come from all over the world to deliberately steal Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian lands for their "settlements".

Does that sound unreasonably harsh? Contrary to David Boaz's claims I am not politically naive and never have been.

Murdering children and their parents as they flee the Israeli army is not protecting Israel anymore than Australia locking up refugees from Saddam Hussein or the Taliban protected the borders.

After all the people only got to the outreach islands and were then flown to Australia on nice big jumbo jets at the behest of the Australian government.

Perhaps Israel might try living up to the 100 or so resolutions passed by the UN about going back to the 1967 borders.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 1:44:03 PM
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Big Ted:
The more Israel runs wild in Palestine, Lebanon and elsewhere, the more you waffle on about Rwanda, Srebrenica, Nazis etc. Is this because you know what we all know - that Israel is chalking up yet another crime against humanity - and your job is to deflect/obfuscate/confuse and otherwise blunt that understanding? But that's OK, that's what AIJAC pays you for. We understand that.
And all that waffle about self-defence, jihadists and Qassams, that's gotta go in to somehow justify Israel's mad rampage in Palestine, Lebanon and who knows where else next, hasn't it? Again, that's your bread and butter, and a guy's gotta make a crust, right? But please, please, spare us the hypocrisy of "Despite the best efforts of the Israeli army to hit only their armed antagonists...those innocent deaths are a tragedy..." yadda, yadda, yadda. Every time the Israelis unleash their shock and awe on the Palestinians and the Lebanese in the absolute certainty that innocent civilians will be slaughtered (when are we going to pass the 200 mark?) their crimes are indistinguishable from those of the terrorists they claim to be defending themselves against. I can take lies, misrepresentations, propaganda (much of it quite amusing in its labyrinthine ingenuity), but, Big Ted, it's the hypocrisy that gets me every time. Have mercy!
Posted by Strewth, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 1:58:24 PM
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What a motley bunch of miserable ranters. None are so blind as those who cannot see.
Posted by jeremy29, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 2:05:20 PM
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Dear Marilyn....

regrettably, you are.

Here is the evidence. In short 'lack of analysis'....

Points.

You mention 'Iraq' defending 'it'self from 'Invaders'....

At the risk of repeating myself "Who".....is "Iraq" ?

Which.... ones do you mean ?

a) Sunni minority who lost (and are trying to regain) their privileged positions based on Sadaams brutality agains Kurd and Shia ?

b) Kurds, .. are they fighting the 'invading' Coalition ?

c) Shia... the formerly oppressed minority ? Yep...some of them are fighting, possibly for the following reasons:

i) They are being egged on by Iran for 'Greater Iran/Shia Empire' reasons

ii) They are hoping to consolidate a 'Shia' dominance over all others.

iii) They are just plain stupid and bite the hand which saved them. (maybe they now believe the US is intent on STEALING all their oil)

d) The Assyrian Christians ? who, by the way are so few due to KURDISH genocide against them, among other genocidal groups such as the Sunni Arabs.

So.. there it is. You are either seeking to mislead or you don't have much of a clue. You speak in sweeeeeeeping generalities which insult our own ability to gather facts.
None of the above is to deny that the US has serious oil interests at stake. I just get weary of your shallow sweeping statements.

My short term solution now is as follows: Basically the Israeli one.

1/ Buffer zone free of Hizbollah
2/ International community assisting Lebanese Army to disarm Hizbollah
3/ Lebanese Army deployed in Buffer zone.
4/ I add deport all Palestinians from the Camps to north of the buffer zone to start new lives.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 2:07:10 PM
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Its all a pretext for the impending invasion, er, l mean liberation of Iran.

Kill them a-rabs... they got our oil.
Posted by trade215, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 2:30:12 PM
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"My brother works at a Lebanese restaurant. 75% of the employees are Lebanese; all are Maronite Christians. They express an overwhelmingly positive reaction to Israel's bombings and report that Israeli bombing is confined to predominantly Muslim areas of Beirut. According to these people, the East of the city and other predominately Christian cities, like Zahle, have not been touched by the Israeli attacks. Though they acknowledge the negative short-term (a few years) impact on the economy, a majority of the Christians believe this will have a positive impact on the future of Lebanon since the influence of Hezbollah has had such a terrible effect on the country."
http://spengler.atimes.net/viewtopic.php?t=235

"Moderate states led by the region's political and economic heavyweight Saudi Arabia lashed out at Hezbollah for starting the recent fight, while hard-liner Syria defended its ally.

These acts will pull the whole region back ... and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal told his counterparts, according to delegates who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the meeting.

Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, including the capture of two Israeli soldiers Wednesday and rocket barrages, were "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts," one delegate said.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, he said."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4049315.html

Does anyone seriously dispute that if Iran backed Hezbollah gave up their vicious doctrine of Jihad there would be peace?

Ayatollah Khomeini "Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Islam says:Kill al the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! …… Islam says kill them put them to the sword and scatter [their armies] . . . Islam says whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword. The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other Quranic psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. "
Quoted in Amir Tahiri 'Holy Terror, Inside the World of Islamic Terrorism' 1987
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 2:30:53 PM
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martin,

Finally someone championing the cause of the real 'peaceful' majority of the Lebanese Community, which given their support of Hizbollah does not contain the Shiite (biggest minority does not equal majority) minority.I personally believe that the other parts of the Lebanese community must step up now, or in the near future, to push the Shiite minority into line, or into Syria, their choice. Perhaps the Maronite/Druze minorities could do so, provided with some serious artillery & Aerial support. Their neighbour to the south, has consistently shown it's willingness to attack Hizbollah, and with the exodus from Beirut of the Shia into the Beka'a, a small coordinated push now would see them race into the safe, benevolent embrace of Damascus. God help them if they pick a fight with the Syrian army once they are there, we all know how Syria has treated dissidents.

Perhaps this is the only option that would prevent the otherwise inevitable spiral of the current situation into another civil war, which would suit Syria, who would then come in and pick up the pieces. At least then the international force being trumpeted could safeguard the border between Syria and Lebanon, without the Shia, Lebanon has little to fear from Israel.

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 2:59:21 PM
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Let's get real, people. Hizbollah launched an unprovoked, premeditated assault across a clearly demarcated internationally recognized border into sovereign Israeli territory. After killing several Israeli soldiers and capturing two more, they initiated an intensive rocket bombardment throughout the Galilee region to cover their retreat.

By any objective standard of law and morality, this was a clear act of war by Hizbollah, which has two ministers in the Lebanese government. Lebanon can’t have its cake and eat it too. It can’t complain that its sovereignty is being violated by Israel, while at the same time refusing to exert its authority in the South, which has been turned by Hizbollah into an extra-territorial terror enclave. If Beirut can't act to prevent its territory from being used as a launch pad for attacks, then Israel has no choice but to do the job. That is what any sovereign nation would do under similar circumstances – Australia included.

Marilyn:

US, UK and Australian soldiers are in Iraq at the behest of the duly elected government of Iraq. Of course, you will dismiss the courage of 8 million people who braved jihadist threats to implement their right of franchise in the first democratic election that Iraq has ever seen. That much is predictable. And the President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, wants more international forces in his country to fight the Taliban, not fewer. So I guess that you consider Karzai to be a Western puppet as well. Perhaps you would prefer that Mullah Omar remained in power? I wonder what the women of Afghanistan would say about that? You are making even less sense than usual... which for you is really saying something.

Plantagenet:

The C-802 anti-ship missile that Hizbullah used to attack an Israeli naval vessel is a sophisticated weapons system designed in China and manufactured in Iran. Similarly the 13,000 rockets of various types being used by Hizbollah to bombard northern Israel were provided by Iran as well. There is no doubt about Iran's involvement in this. Teheran is in it up to its eyebrows and beyond.
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 3:35:57 PM
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Frankly, the thing which always amazes me is the *restraint* Israel shows. Those guys have got one of the most skilled, best equipped armies in the world. They could raze the entire middle east tomorrow if they needed too, without even touching their nuclear arsenal. They put up with heaps and heaps of provocation - would any other nation on the planet accept daily rocket attacks without responding?

The Jihadists talk big. They're always talking it up about how big and tough they are, until they begin getting their arses kicked.

For me, the bottom line is simple. I believe that if the Arabic side of this conflict just stopped attacking and antagonising Israel, there would be peace. I do not believe that Israel is picking the fights here - the Israelis are just not going to sit around and get sand kicked in their faces.
Posted by Anth, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 4:02:48 PM
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I would just like to mention one thing, there has been a lot of debate on this forum about who is the true victim here.

Israel has suffered from the rocket attacks against their civilian populations, I understand that.

But those rocket attacks have come from a population that is under occupation, not a sovereign state with clearly defined borders, but a population that is under occupation and has lost its self-determination.

Before all the armchair warriors who,from the comfort of their homes, that they own, condone Israels response they should try and imagine what it is like to have no control over your own country.
Posted by Carl, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 4:19:55 PM
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Please note I was referring to the rockets that have been fired from Gaza, not southern Lebanon, which is basically what started this whole thing off anyway.
Posted by Carl, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 4:30:55 PM
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It's a fair bet that if Bush and the US supported the Arabs, the left would be sobbing over Israel instead of poor dear Lebanon whose only crime has been to harbour the Hezbollah terrorists. So predictable. The hatred for America extends to Israel.

I am not a Jew, nor do I have any particular brief for Jews but, like Anth, I am amazed at the restraint of Israel. Just how much longer can that country be expected tolerate the constant danger, threats of danger and the lunatic promises to wipe if off the face of the earth?
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 4:42:23 PM
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But Carl, that's the whole point. Israel pulled back from Gaza. And how did the Palestinians celebrate? By firing rockets.

Losers.
Posted by Anth, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 4:56:13 PM
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Martin

'Does anyone seriously dispute that if Iran backed Hezbollah gave up their vicious doctrine of Jihad there would be peace?'

While the Israeli's continue to try to steal areas of the West Bank then sadly I'd continue to have dispute there would be a fair peace.

In any democracy the majority rules. Unity is the key. The government governs and represents all groups in that democracy. You seem to think it ok to divide communities with in democracies. That's unreasonable.

2bob

A senario that includes another civil war in Lebanon...suits the Israelis more than anyone else.

Ted

'Hizbollah launched an unprovoked, premeditated assault across a clearly demarcated internationally recognized border into sovereign Israeli territory...'

Not quite accurate Ted.

The Israeli attack was, according to Israeli propaganda, provoked by the attack on one of it's military units which resulted in the deaths of 4 and the capture of two Israeli soldiers. That action took place, not in soverign Israeli territory but in a disputed part of SOUTHERN LEBANON. But the Israeli's wouldn't say that.

And Ted I think if groups of Israeli's settled in Ausrtalia, created 'Settlements' and then claimed their land belonged to Israel ... how would you react? I know how most fair dinkum Aussies would react.

And if Iran is up to it's eyebrows then why doesn't Israel bomb Iran instead of innocent democratic citizens in Lebanon? That would of course lead to a wider conflict and one Israel would lose in an even bigger way than the way it is currently losing to the Palestinians
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 5:09:04 PM
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Carl,

I agree we should not forget their predicament. The Palestinians have had an extreemly raw deal from the rest of the world over the last 60 or so years and there will be no permanent peace in the middle east unless that is addressed.

Unfortunately, in the here and now, there's just no getting around the fact that the Palestinians elected Hamas to represent them (by a landslide), and Hamas has behaved as they presumably expected.

Prior to the election of Hamas, the world could always put the terrorist actions, however popularly supported, down to rogue elements, but with the kidnapping of Shalit by the armed wing of Hamas, that pretext is gone. The Palestinians, through their elected representatives, have committed an act of war against their neighbour. That their effort was militarily pathetic and Israel is better armed and equiped, just makes Hamas's action all the more idiotic. It doesn't make it any less an act of war.

Can Israel realistically be expected to endure endless rocket attacks, etc, with no end in sight?
Posted by Kalin, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 5:15:35 PM
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Funny, you could apply this justification for Israeli violent action to actions of the "insurgents" in Iraq. Want to try that, Ted?
Posted by mhar, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 5:27:55 PM
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Israel has just announced it has refused an Australian government request for a ceasefire.

Australia wants to evacuate its citizens from Lebanon.

A few questions for those who are not known to have ever publicly criticised Israel ...

a) Is Australia's request a reasonable one?

b) Is Israel's refusal reasonable?

c) Would you support Israeli attacks on Lebanon if these resulted in the deaths of innocent Australian citizens?
Posted by Irfan, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 5:56:45 PM
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Furphan,

I have publicly criticized Israel but still I am offended by the implication that you represent reason while those who disagree are prejudiced.

I suggest you answer your own rhetorical questions. I mean this with great respect – I think it will be a salutary exercise for you.

"It is not prejudiced to see where a person is wrong, it is prejudiced to not see where they think they're right" GK Chesterton

If you can do this publicly I will hazard an answer to your questions.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 6:41:15 PM
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Nice article Ted,

I understand that the majority of rockets used by Hezbollah are made in Syria. The C-802 anti-maritime missile was either constructed by China or copied in Iran. Apparently it was operated and launched by members of the Revolutionary Guard.

If Hamas and Hezbollah hide like cowardly curs in amongst civilians, and target woman and children from 40 km's away, then they show the true light of their dog prophet. If there were a man amongst them, they would fight honourably instead of cowering beneath petty-skirts.
Posted by Narcissist, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 7:34:01 PM
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There are some tenuous connections being made here.

Every man and his dog has been implicated, somehow or other.

OK, in the spirit of dubiously specious strings... lets not forget which country exports a lot of uranium and every other metal complicit in this symphony of death and destruction. Yeah, yeah, its a degree of seperation... whatever to semantics.

It really does leave me speechless when folks seemingly condone war and denigrate peace. Notwithstanding the brutal side of the human animal and how it manifests such ugly realities, it thoroughly baffles to observe the latently hostile masses cheering from the sidelines.

The mid east has been set back prolly 2 decades in the last 5 or 6 yrs. Its a bloody mess.

We dont help matters the way we carry on about carrying on.
Posted by trade215, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 8:14:33 PM
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Israel must use more force and drag Syria, Iran and if possible the US into a real jihad, blow the Islamists back to the stone age where they want to be.

Perhaps now our very own Lebbo brothers of Cronulla fame may feel a little more grateful to thier gracious hosts.

Paybacks (jihad) a bitch aint it.
Posted by SCOTTY, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 8:38:40 PM
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Irfan,

a)Australia’s request is naďve

b)Israel’s refusal is reasonable in view of the fact that it is defending itself

c)Many of the Australian citizens in Lebanon have dual citizenship and are quite happy to call themselves Lebanese when living in Australia. Now that they are in trouble, they really, really want to be Aussies. As for the rest, the Australian Government always has cautions regarding travel to Lebanon. The ongoing situation in the region is always volatile.

Israel will take what action it deems to be in its best interests as long as Lebanon harbours terrorists, irrespective of whose citizens are holidaying there. It is underhanded of you to suggest that Australians having a different view from yours would “support Israeli attacks on Lebanon if these resulted in the deaths of innocent Australian citizens.” - by posing a question designed to make people believe that that is what they would be doing.

Israel’s current defensive action has nothing whatsoever to do with what Australians think. If Australian citizens choose to go into dangerous areas, they must expect some risk.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 8:38:49 PM
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You can bomb people to pieces but you can't bomb them to peace.

Decades of hatred need to be healed. How? I have absolutely no idea but it is the only answer. Unless genocide is contemplated.
Posted by Steve Madden, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 8:48:03 PM
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Well Steve for starters the religion of peace can start by removing phrases of death and destruction to all infidels from the good book.
ONLY 1 religion preaches violence and there in lays the whole problem in the Middle East. The fundamentalist followers of this religion are going to go on provoking the EAST the WEST the NORTH and probably the penguins in Antarctica until they get what they want, or they end up in thier own fiery hell. Which may happen yet....

Long Live Israel. INSHALLAH
Posted by SCOTTY, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 9:09:25 PM
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Marilyn Shepherd

You still insist that the Israelis have stolen the land. You also insist that they are all Holocaust survivors.

I say once again and again and again but no-one wants to listen because it spoils their arguement.

A large percentage of Jewish Israelis are from Arab countries. They are there because of persecution from Muslims. Christians were equally persecuted.

The numbers of Jews displaced from Arab lands roughly equals the number of Palestinians who left Israel. In addition all through the 19th century Jews emigrated and purchased land LEGALLY. THEY DID NOT STEAL.

There are also Muslims and Christians in Israel. ALL HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. There is no mass disatisfaction there. The same cannot be said for Christians and Jews in most Arab held lands.

Carl

Most Muslims in any Arab country have no control over their lives. That is why so many have emigrated to Australia Britain France and everywhere else. Why else do you think they live their oil rich homelands where they should be able to live well?

Israel is far from being a saint but we must accept the reality of the Muslim world. Few Israelis are religious so their reaction has nothing at all to do with their religion.
Posted by logic, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 10:06:18 PM
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Leigh,

Great to see you are happy to see Australian blood spilt so cheaply. I guess you are suggesting it's OK to kill people if they are duel citizens. I'm so glad Andrew Robb is our Citizenship minister and not you.

Yes, Israel has a right to defend herself against terrorists. Israel has in the past shown an ability to pinpoint and kill individual leaders. Why not just go in and assassinate select Hezbollah operatives? Why burn innocent people alive, even if it does provide some entertainment to some people on these forums?
Posted by Irfan, Tuesday, 18 July 2006 10:38:42 PM
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Ted I am very, very tired of people telling me what I will or won't dismiss about our involvement in Iraq. OK, 8 million people went out to vote but just what the hell have they gained for their troubles?

A useless PM, a worse President and more and more sectarian violence is what they got.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear Ted. I have been and anti-war campaigner since 1966 so I am not particularly new to this - I cut my teeth on our other great adventure with the morons in the US, remember that little sortie called Vietnam?

No-one, but no-one has the right to set off a bomb, to capture or kidnap another human being, to kill another human being, to blow up another human being or even punch another human being.

It is a crime. There fore I will not take sides unless my own ridiculous government is involved in misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan or are pretending to be the deputy in the Pacific while at the same time trying to pass vile laws to keep out the genuine refugees who flee the very regimes we think are rotten.

Having a vote Ted has proved nothing in Afghanistan or Iraq - and being a democracy doesn't prove anything either because it was three major democracies who decided to blow up Iraq without even the fig leaf of captured soldiers.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 1:11:54 AM
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This is the big picture.

The Zionists are leading America to war with Iran.

The reason that the people of Lebanon are being used in this slow, cruel, but very deliberate way is that they are all simply hostages.

They are hostages. We are hostages to the drivel. We will be hostage to the act because we swallow the drivel.

There is NO god. There is only power and money and old men who can't take it with them and young men who aspire...

- one of nature's more cruel experiments.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 1:40:02 AM
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* WARNING * “CRITICISM” of ISRAEL

CARL “under occupation?”

-mate.. you have a ‘half-point’. I would prefer to describe the events you refer to as ‘compulsory acquisition’ of private land for government purposes.
But remember the Arabs who attacked Israel would not give the Jews ‘other land’ if they had won.

Now, ‘compensation and resettlement’ must be addressed. But..’where’ ?

I’ll refer to this in my continued evolving outline of ‘SOLUTIONS’ below.

Ok.. now to criticize Israel.

I believe they have not ‘grasped the nettle’. They have tried too hard to please too many conflicting interests. What is needed is a ‘final’ solution which is sweeping in scope and permanent in nature.

SOLUTION (evolving)

1/ Lost Land Register of claims.

For all those who have not already been compensated with market value for their land lost due to Israeli rule.

They should provide Title information if available or testimony of reliable witnesses.

2/ New Land Allocation.

If the real issue is “we lost land” then this should be solvable by providing alternative land, just as it is when a government acquires our own land in Australia for a freeway. (they provide monetary compensation)

Hezbollah supporters to be exiled to Syria and Iran (similar to how Pakistanis and Bengalis were able to migrate to England during the conflict. )

I suggest re-locating all internally displaced Muslim Arabs in Gaza and WB to regions in South Lebanon, around Sidon, Tyre and Ez Zahrani.

Palestinians who took Christian lands after their genocide against them in Damour to be re-located south, to the regions listed above. Damour Land returned to Christian owners.
International community to invest in:
a) Infrastructure
b) Industrial/Economic initiatives
c) Residential housing in the areas listed.

Land to be allocated on the basis of the “Register” mentioned above. (size and value)

But I honestly believe the root of the problem is not ‘land’ per se, . (to the Muslim mind) it’s that “Jews” took it
They remember how the Jews were exiled from the Arabian Peninsula by Mohammed, they resent the tables being turned by their former victims.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 6:04:55 AM
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Chris Shaw said: 'The Zionists are leading America to war with Iran.'

That's pretty much it.

Here's part of an interview with leading Neo-Con (he calls himself that) William (Bill) Kristol from about 2 and a half months ago:

http://www.thinkprogress.org/colbert-42806

COLBERT: Is the military option on the table in Iran?

KRISTOL: Absolutely, absolutely. And in Sudan.
Posted by Ev, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 7:17:09 AM
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Why does anybody take any notice of what Marilyn Shepherd says or writes? According to her own profile at http://www.blogger.com/profile/13599104 she lists her occupation as "State Sponsored Angry Lunatic". Enough said, really.
Posted by EnerGee, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 11:42:10 AM
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Energee

In answer to your question, because Marilyn presents a humane approach to many of the issues presented at OLO as opposed to the blood thirsty, war-at-all-costs approach by the intellectually challenged OLO poster.

As for her self description - she reveals a sense of humour that assists her with the constant abuse she receives at OLO. Posters who disagree with her, apparently don't have the requisite wit to pose an convincing counter argument and wind up attacking her personally instead.

Capisce?
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 12:02:54 PM
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Big Ted: More hypocrisy! You say "Hizb. launched an unprovoked, premeditated assault across a clearly demarcated internationally recognised border..."
You mean just like Israel in Lebanon in 82, in Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 67, and routinely in the Palestinian territories from 1967-2006?
Arik Diamant, IDF reservist and head of the Israeli Courage to Refuse organization has written eloquently on ynetnews.com in 'Look who's been kidnapped! (5/7/06)', describing an Israeli-style kidnapping in Nablus "about 10 years ago":
"No one wrote about it in the paper. European diplomats were not called to help him. After all there was nothing out of the ordinary about the kidnapping of this Palestinian kid. Over the 40 years of occupation we have kidnapped thousands of people, exactly like Gilad Shalit was captured: Threatened by a gun, beaten mercilessly, with no judge or jury, or eyewitnesses, and without providing the family with any information about the captive. When the Palestinians [or Hizbollah] do this, we call it 'terror'. When we do it, we work overtime to whitewash the atrocity."

Are you getting double time for your efforts, Big Ted?
Posted by Strewth, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 12:13:49 PM
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Well said Scout,

Some may not agree with every single thing Marilyn says but we should respect her right to say it, free from personal abuse.

I for one admire her relentless compassion for her fellow man in the face of bigotry and hostility.

Any politician or radio shock-jock will tell you that -

1. If you don't have the facts on your side, argue the Law.
2. If you don't have the Law on your side, argue the facts.
3. If you don't have the Law or the facts on your side, call the other person names.

It's much like what's happening in the Middle East at the moment.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 1:28:00 PM
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Strewth,

Where did you learn your history? The PLO?

It's one thing to be anti what Israel is doing in Lebanon and to the Palestinians, but just blatantly making stuff up undermines your credibility.
Posted by Kalin, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 1:48:18 PM
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Does anyone remember the 1960's peace song "the universal soldier" personally I think we should reverse the UN's 1947 resolution to create Israel. War solves nothing, the only good that comes from war is economic, profit for ammunision and weapons factories.

My father who was a forward scout in WW11 told me many times "if politicians had to face the horrors of war themselves, there would be no war."

Killing innocent people is never correct, Iraq is already Australia's Vietnam, now Bush has Iran and North Korea lined up, how much longer until he ceates WW111?

This is not about "terrorism" it is about oil, as we approach "peak oil" surely the blind can see that fact.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 2:45:58 PM
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Dear Kalin.....

I rest my case :) (re Strewth)

Is there any point in discussing with him? well.. there is one positive.... he demonstrates exactly WHY it is impossible to negotiate with that side of the situation.

He does indeed rightly point out that Israel is not without 'spot or blemish' when seen through purely human eyes.

What he fails dismally to see though, is the bigggggGGG picture, and how this relates to world stability.

He is either an apologist for the Islamo/Facist Militant radicals or is one of them himself.

He seems better informed that the typical Greeny or Lefty, who only learn enough to make a public fuss about things and suck in the ignorant through emotive shallow slogans...

But we need the Strewths and Marilyns in one case to display the stiff necked bias of Islamo facists and in the other the uninformed political naivity we should all avoid like the plague.

In the case of Israel, in spite of David Ben Gurions noble but overly optimistic cry of:

"The State of Israel will not be tried by its riches, army or techniques, but by its moral image and human values."

COMMENT: Dream on David, I prefer to see Jews calling for repentance and obedience to the Law of Moses and the covenant to which they were called by God.
At least "That" has a promise associated with it.

Menachim Begin said: "The Jewish people have unchallengeable, eternal, historic right to the Land of Israel, the inheritance of their forefathers"
COMMENT Yes Menachim...when they HONOUR G-D.Not when they are carnal.

Hayam Nachman Bialik "No power in the world will dislodge us from our place in the Land of Israel"

COMMENT Hayam.. you are RIGHT...no power in this world..... but G-D exiled unfaithful Jews in the past.....HE might do it again.
Remember Deuteronomy ? Covenant....Blessings "IF" and Curses "IF NOT"

Jesus said "I am the Vine, and you are the Branches... if a man remains in me, and I in Him, he will bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing" John 15:5
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 3:15:34 PM
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Kalin,
Stewth's only problem may be that he looks too far back in the past to make his point.

All he needed to do was mention the 1996 massacres at Qana and "Operations Grapes of Wrath" to
illustrate Israel's true sentiment toward it's neighbours.

The biiggggg picture is simply one about oil and the ongoing Middle East instability that the USA
needs to perpetuate.

You don't have to be an Islamo Fascist to see this, you just have to open your eyes.

The manufactured myth of Israel being the perennial persecuted victim has worn very thin indeed.

Getting your opinions from the mainstream media or Hollywood is as dodgy as trawling all the loony web-sites
for information.

It's one-eyed bias like that that simply perpetuates the situation, which is exactly what is
intended to happen.
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 3:56:54 PM
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Has Bamboozle developed Parkinson's?
Posted by Strewth, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 4:52:03 PM
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Re the current pressure on the Australian Government to save dual nationals.

Are these the same charmers who recently held Sydney to ransom, bashed passersby and destroyed property, all the while proudly proclaiming that they were lebanese, not Australian?

If so, they should stay at home and protect their country. Far be it from the power imputed to the Australian GOvernment to remove these people from the defence of their true national affiliate. I do not believe that $1 should be expended by the Government to remove these darlings from their current, self-imposed, situation. Especially given that so many are only Australian Nationals because they could not return to Lebanon because of fear they would be harmed. As they did not fear to return, their citizenship should be revoked as having been procured under false pretences.

Additionally, any of the new proud Australian's with outstanding criminal warrants, especially which are outstanding only by reason of their flight to Lebanon, should be left on the docks. They don't accept the restrictions imposed by law, they cannot invoke it's protection.

Inshallah

2 bob
Posted by 2bob, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 5:12:54 PM
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Personally, I'd go further than 2bob and suggest that it isn't the job of the Australian embassy in any country to "get people out" in situations like this.

The tourists/visitors/returning dual-nationalists went there of their own free will, knowing that the region is occasionally politically unstable. Why should we, the taxpayers of Australia, pay for them to be ferried out of the danger zone that they entered willingly?

It is akin to the ransom concept. Once you say yes to one situation, it becomes difficult to say no to the next. Natural disasters should fall into the same basket - it is sad, it is unfortunate, but it is not our collective responsibility to rush off every time someone twists their ankle and has to be rescued.

And before anyone cries "oh, the humanity", remember the outpouring of public opinion when Isabelle Autissier had to be rescued from the ocean? We resented every dollar spent to save her life, didn't we? The talkback jocks, to a man, took the line "she got herself into strife, let her get herself out of it."

But of course, she was a foreigner, wasn't she.

Unfortunately it is yet another aspect of how we have come to rely on the nanny state to protect us from harm every time we step out of doors.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 5:33:20 PM
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Thanks 2Bob and Pericles for reminding me of the nobility and humanity of the punters in this forum.

I do wonder why Ted Lapkin, as spokesmodel for the AIJAC isn't putting his efforts into lobbying Israel for passage of Australian citizens, rather than moralising to us in Rupert's paper. It seems the AIJAC is much more interested in I(srael) than A(ustralia). One would hate to think that the AIJAC was just a mouthpiece for Israeli PR...
Posted by Johnj, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 7:48:32 PM
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For variety here's a perspective yesterday from Larry Johnson, formerly of the CIA and specialising in counterterrorism:

"Israel and its most stalwart US allies are still spouting the bullsh-t that they can get things under control with simple use of airplanes, drones, and bombs.

Oh yeah. Let's make a list of wars that have been one exclusively through the use of airpower. (CRICKETS CHIRPING) That's right. NONE. ZERO. ZIP.

Israel has every right to insist that it not serve as the drop zone for Hezbollah missiles. But, they will not be able to bomb their way out of this problem. That can only be done with troops on the ground. I'm betting they won't be able to resist the temptation. [its happening]

If Israel takes Iran's bait, then Israel will find itself battling an Iraq-style insurgency and Tehran can sit back and enjoy the spectacle of watching the United States try to salvage a democracy in Lebanon while supporting Israel, who is destroying its democratic neighbor to the north, and rally a distracted international community to punish Iran who is busy consolidating its control over the militia, police, and intelligence service in Iraq. Got it?"

from "No Quarter" http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/here_we_go_agai.html#more

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/

c
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 9:26:49 PM
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Tell me where, oh where have all the Christians gone?
WHERE ARE THE CHRISTIANS?

“When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.” Quote from
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=4534

I have read the post and comments and found none.
Posted by ELIDA, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 9:38:17 PM
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I assume the opinions above about not helping citizens travelling overseas would include those Aussies who recklessly got themselves involved in the Bali or London bombings and those others who were caught in the Tsunami.

Maybe they should have chosen to relax at Bondi or Cronulla beach instead of spending their money on overseas trips to exotic and potentially dangerous locations.

Maybe we shouldn't waste our tax dollars on travel warnings either because hey, it's their own fault for being there.

Or maybe their choice of who is entitled to assistance is more "selective".
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 11:30:02 PM
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Go Ted!
A few weeks ago Iranian Thug-in-Chief Ahmadinejad called on the Islamic world to mobilize and wipe out Israel. Less than a week later we see the results of this conference.
Ahmadinejad may see this as his big chance to unite Muslims behind Iran, positioning the Shi'ite mullahocracy as the best candidate to lead the jihad against Infidels. Did he set Hezbollah loose on Israel in recent weeks in order to provoke Israeli attacks against civilian targets -- which jihadists have always done -- launching attacks from heavily populated areas (the great heroes of Islam always hide amongst women and children)? Perhaps he was hoping to unleash the full force of the world's dhimmi/leftist media against Israel, and to shame Europe, if not America, into refusing to lift a finger in Israel's defense -- and/or to provoke Europe's Muslims into full-bore jihad against the dhimmi non-Muslim Europeans.
This is all part of a larger war. The war has gone on since the beginning of Islam. It is the war of Believers against Infidels. It can, but need not, proceed through qital (combat). Other weapons -- the money weapon and pen, speech, propaganda and now the demographic weapon, are all available.
The war continues within lands controlled by Muslims whenever and wherever possible. Muslims control Bangladesh, but they still persecute, still drive out, still murder Hindus. Muslims control Indonesia, but they make war on Christians in the Moluccas, in Sulawesi. They make war, when they can, on Hindus, having driven Hinduism back to its sole redoubt of Bali. They make war in Egypt on the sole remaining Egyptians who have remained true to their pre-Islamic heritage (Copts). They make war on Buddhists, Animists, Atheists, you name it, if they're not Muslims, they attack 'em, everywhere where Muslims are prevalent. CONTINUED
Posted by Skid Marx, Thursday, 20 July 2006 1:12:55 AM
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The war in Kashmir is not a war over Kashmir. Kashmir is only the current demand. In the end, it is a war to recapture India for Islam. India, like Spain, Sicily, the Balkans etc, must be recaptured and re-incorporated into Dar al-Islam. The war in Israel is likewise not a war over Israel. It is all part of the same overall effort, to recapture what belongs by right to the Dar al-Islam.
What constitutes a "reasonable" response by Israel to the rockets lobbed into Tiberias, Safed, Haifa, everywhere? The "reasonable" response that would be given by France we know -- Chirac tells us he'll nuke 'em! The "reasonable" response of Russia -- the total destruction of Chechnya. We know what Great Britain and the United States would do. China.....? Let's not have any nonsense about "disproportionate" force.
Israel should be encouraged and cheered. And after that, every effort should be made to encourage them, as well, to come to their senses about the nature of the war against them, the need not merely to be more powerful than the enemy, but to be obviously so, in order that the Arab and Muslim leaders may invoke Darura -- that doctrine of necessity. That is the only way, in the end, to keep the peace between the Infidel state of Israel, and all those who are commanded to forever wage war on Infidels in order to spread Islam and to ensure that the conditions for the imposition of Sharia are attained, and Muslims rule everywhere.
As for all those 'peace activists' bleating about civilian casualties -- GET OVER IT! War is hell, and it's going to get worse -- everywhere!
Peace would be lovely, but we are facing an enemy whose concept of peace (Pax Islamica) involves death or subjugation of non-believers.
Posted by Skid Marx, Thursday, 20 July 2006 1:14:44 AM
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Everyone of my grandparents were dual citizens - of Germany, England, Wales, Ireland, France and Scotland. Some joined the army to fight for Australia with the English against the Germans on the other side of the family.

Should the Australian government have left them to be bombed to bits? I notice no-one has suggested that dual citizen and mercenary Doug Wood should have been left in Iraq.

I found Lapkin on Lateline to be very cold and disturbing actually, maybe it is the former soldier in him but he fails to see humanity.

There was a well published picture of a beautiful young Israeli girl writing "with love from Danielle" on a bomb to be fired at Lebanon and in Tyre there is a terrible description of 55 dead children in one day alone with others being utterly vaporised as they tried to escape.

Is Israel trying for another master race? Lapkin claims that some of the Israelis are Arabs but seems to think that those Arabs are good while the others are bad.

Is Ted a dual citizen? Ted if you are caught in a war zone should we leave you there? Are the children of Lebanon really members of Hezbollah?

Is the might of the US backed Israeil warmachine really matched by a few rockets? What about those 10,000 rockets - they sound suspiciously like all the bombs and rockets Iraq was supposed to have had.

How many of those rockets would survive one nuclear weapon from the 250 nuclear warheads in Israel and why is the US giving the Israelis another week of killing?

Come on Ted and others, engage and answer some damn questions instead of telling a story as if it is a fact. I am not now and nor have I ever been politically naive - I am far too cynical.

But we are all equal and therefore dual citizen Lebanese have the same right to rescue as those who are not.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 20 July 2006 2:11:25 AM
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Marilyn:

I know you cut your teeth during the wild and wooly 60s, but you really need to stop seeing everything through the prism of the Vietnam war.

Doug Wood was a civilian contractor who was helping to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure. He was hardly a "mercenary," as you contend.

The Israeli government is working closely with the Australian government to try and effect the safe repatriation of Aussies in Lebanon. But it is unreasonable to expect Israel to implement a cease fire because Hizbollah would use such respite to resupply and rearm its forces. The end result of such a cease fire would be more missiles raining down on northern Israel.

Strewthie:

I really shouldn't have to administer these history lessons, but someone has to correct your distortion of the record. So here goes:

Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon (in which I personally participated) came after 12 years during which the PLO established an autonomous 'state within a state' enclave in southern Lebanon that it used to launch terror attacks against Israeli civilians. Do you notice any similarities to the current situation here? As long the Lebanese government can not/will not extend its authority to all corners of the country; and as long as the Lebanese government fails to prevent its territory being used as a base for attacks against neighbouring nations, then those neighbours have every right to take action needed to protect their citizens from foreign violence.

As for 1967, that was a clear act of self-defence against Arab annihilationist belligerence that manifested itself in, to mention just a few issues:

* Egypt's blockade of an international waterway to Israeli shipping (clearly an act of war in international law);

* the expulsion of a UN peace keeping force and the transfer of the bulk of the Egyptian army into close proximity with the Israeli border;

* belligerent Arab rhetoric about the upcoming battle to wipe Israel off the map

So your silly attempt to equate Hizbollah's unprovoked violation of Israel's sovereignty with past Israeli acts of self-defence falls flat on its face
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Thursday, 20 July 2006 7:02:51 AM
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Dear Ted....

and by now I hope you realize the futility of arguing fact and history with the likes of Strewth and Marilyn.
You can repeat and repeat....but it won't change their thinking.

Marilyn is addicted to protest, seldom rational but aggresively compassionate.. sadly, she just sees 'the victims' rather than the causes.

Strewth is an as yet unknown quantity... he may well be a Palestinian, or Muslim, or a John Pilger clone, but one thing is certain, he does not see any acceptable out come other than reversing the tide of History.. his often mentioned 'right of return' is the clearest evidence of his real 'destroy Israel' agenda, as they are one and the same.

If you have had experience personally in the War there, and know the situation first hand.. surely you have that little voice inside which recognizes that as long as the Muslim Arabs are close by, they and their children and their childrens children will be hurling increasintly sophisticated Kassams at Israel..for crying out loud, I can design a guidance system myself, not that hard to hitch it up to a gps signal and improve the accuracy.. a guidance chip costs about $50 and are available in Sydney.

I refer you to my other posts about 'Final Solution'.

I'm sure you know "friendly Muslims"...but do you actually believe that those in the Camps will ever stop trying to regain their lost land ? (with better and better, more destructive weapons)

The best 'fence/security barrier' is to not have any of those nearby who it is separating you from. Give them new lives elsewhere.

By your own words re South Lebanon:

1/ PLO produced a 'state within a state' (same with Hamas)
2/ Hezbollah did the same.

yes.... time for that 'final' ....solution.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 20 July 2006 9:52:24 AM
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What do you say to a land developer whose deed and title is a 3000 year old pawn ticket, signed by a deity which has yet to manifest itself?

No matter what is built on Temple Mount, it will in effect, be an asylum for the insane.

These pictures show what happens when you heap weapons on the insane:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14069.htm

"Never again" my mother said. I'm glad she can't be here to see her wise and heartfelt sentiments so abused.

Maybe we should give the non-Hebrew occupants of Greater Israel a new homeland in Madagascar.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Thursday, 20 July 2006 10:56:55 AM
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Thanks for the historical revisionism, Ted. I guess you'll expect us to believe that Israel is "a land without people for a people without a land".
Posted by Irfan, Thursday, 20 July 2006 11:55:18 AM
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Ted, haven't you paused to wonder about the implications of your "history lesson"? Israel must accept some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs in Lebanon, given its long-term occupation. Please spare us the crocodile tears about "those innocent deaths are a tragedy". You don't make an omlette without breaking eggs; likewise you don't fight a war without killing people. Israel's policy-makers obviously believe innocent Lebanese are worth less than innocent Israelis.

It seems, IMHO that Israel is run by IDF. Policy is made by the hawks and defended by thoughtful caring ex-soldiers like Mr Lapkin. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 20 July 2006 11:59:46 AM
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SHONGA “Does this mean that North Korea has the right to defend herself against the holder of the majority of the world's nuclear weapons of mass destruction, and has been the only country in history to actually use them?”

I see no US missiles being fired at North Korea.

However, I do see Hezbollah and North Korea firing missiles.

Oh and I see democratically elected governments in USA and Israel, none in North Korea and whilst Hezbollah has representatives in the Lebanese government, I do not see them as having been authorised by the Lebanese government to fire missiles onto Israel.

It is annoying when some choose to twist circumstances to suit the banality of their argument.

"Collateral damage" is a metaphor for civilian deaths and injuries. Some degree of "collateral Damage is unavoidable in a conflict environment.

I wonder if Marilyn Shepherd has bothered to count how many Israelis and Lebenese have been killed by Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists?

Oh and it is not "an eye for an eye", it is - "Israel has the right to defend itself".

So all those salivating and foaming over how Hezbollah and Hamas have maintained a war of attrition against Israel, despite the Israeli withdraw from much of the Palestinian territories which it captured in previous attempts by Arabs to push the Israeli nation into the sea, should we be faced with similar threat, I want the ADF to be as resourceful and determined as the IDF.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 20 July 2006 12:03:06 PM
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Irf, marilyn, etc.

Get a grip. If you as a dual national choose to prefer one of your nationalities over the other to the extent that you are willing to hold the other citizens of one of them to ransom, by acts of wanton damage, destruction and assault, you must be prepared for those citizens you offend, to take such an opportunity with both hands. Funny thing is, so many maronites, who don't use their religion to keep our societies norm;s in the background, are itching to return to Lebanon, whilst those that do use their religion as a tool, and who are apparently disgusted by us 'skippies', now want to be saved, by guess who? Not us, surely.

Quite frankly, descendant's of refugee's & refugee's themselves who have felt capable of returning to the country from which they sought refuge, are self evidently, and demonstrably, holders of Australian citizenship for no apparent reason, they are certainly not entitled to refugee status. I suggest their citizenship should be immediately revoked, and they should go to the back of the line.

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Thursday, 20 July 2006 2:29:26 PM
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Dual citizens are Australians of convenience. I read today that some of them actually live full time in Lebanon with the intention of using Australia as a bolthole when necessary.

Their scheme may have come undone in a big way this time.

Still, as they also retain Lebanese citizenship, they should go to the Lebanese government, not the Australian government.

Our pansy Government has to do something about these people who blatantly use Australian citizenship without giving any loyalty to the country. No Australian citizenship without renunciation of other countries!

The point someone made about the possiblity of some Lebanese going back to the country they 'needed' asylum from is a very interesting one, too.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 20 July 2006 8:34:44 PM
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2Bob, perhaps you might point out which Australians of dual nationality have been "willing to hold the other citizens of one of them to ransom, by acts of wanton damage, destruction and assault"? Names please, and from a reputable source.

I find it a bit sad that some on this thread are so keen to denegrate and demonise people, on the basis of their country of origin. Why exactly is dual citizenship such a badge of shame?

Perhaps you might reflect on the large group of foreign nationals who haven't even bothered to take out Australian citizenship. They vote, can take their Australian pensions overseas and many travel in and out of the country on their foreign passports. Who are these disloyal traitors? Yes that's right, they are the pre-1984 British immigrants. They have all the same rights as citizens, but have never sworn allegience in Australia. Shame, shame, shame.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 20 July 2006 10:08:14 PM
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No leigh,let them keep their dual citizenship,make it a necessity for all immigrants over ten years.When immigrants are then convicted of a crime,they then can be expelled to from whence they came.

It won't cost the tax payer $60,000.00 pa per head for criminal incarseration in our gaols,and you won't have to pay high insurance premiums to cover the theft in your neighbourhood.

As for Israel,I have no affinity for any religion,however the Lunatic Muslims need to brought to heel.The Lebanese Govt didn't have the courage to suppress Hezbollah and are thus paying the price now.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 20 July 2006 10:10:10 PM
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Short term memory loss playing up again JJ?

You might remember, only a couple of months ago, that lebanese gangs, where travelling through Sydney in packs to destroy cars, bash and stab passersby?

eg. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3962

I seem to recall that they were proud of their lebanese heritage, preferring it to their Aussie heritage? Guess now they have picked a fight they can't win, they are willing be aussies again.

Not sure however, that I, and many other Australians, will have them back. If they wish to return to the place they were granted asylum from, they are obviously not frightened of going there? Thus they are here under false pretences, and no longer need asylum.

Inshallah

2bob

PS how many of the overseas dual nationals are responsible for the current situation by voting for Hizbollah? Given that so many of them reside in the South of Lebanon (its stronghold) I would suggest many. If they supported the actions of Hizbollah, why should they not suffer the consequences of them?
Posted by 2bob, Friday, 21 July 2006 4:59:07 AM
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Johnj

I dont know where you get your facts from but in regard to the pre 1984 British immigrants they had to undergo naturalisation in order to get and keep an Aust PassPort and thereby did swear allegiance. Many of of us were even called up for National Service, and were prepared to serve over seas, well before 1984. Allegiance was taken as read, which given the orgins is pretty self evident. The reason we were asked to undergo naturalisation was because of an International Law legal opinion, that deemed us to be mercenaries for serving in the armed services of a country we did not hold a pass port for.

The pre 1984 Brits are not a problem at all, and never have been, but I dont know about the seemingly very large numbers of Lebanese who seem to have dual citizen ship and live in Lebanon, and presumably have voted for the Hezbellah parliamentarians, and tolerate the role of Hezbellah as a terrorist organisation in Lebanon. I hope ASIO is doing its checks.
Posted by bigmal, Friday, 21 July 2006 9:32:06 AM
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Johnj said "Thanks 2Bob and Pericles for reminding me of the nobility and humanity of the punters in this forum", and wobbles added "I assume the opinions above about not helping citizens travelling overseas would include those Aussies who recklessly got themselves involved in the Bali or London bombings and those others who were caught in the Tsunami."

Humanitarian aid is not the topic here. It is whether it is the automatic responsibility of the government to spend as much of our money as they feel like, rescuing citizens from any and every adverse situation in which they find themselves.

We had absolutely no say in whether they went there or not, and even if we (I'm talking about the taxpayer here) had said "don't go", we would have been ignored.

I think it is utter selfishness to assume that wherever you might be in the world, and into whatever danger you have placed yourself, you have the right to run sobbing to the nearest embassy and demand assistance.

Of course people help people in distress. Of course human nature will always guide us to help those less fortunate than ourselves, whatever the circumstances. What gets my goat is the whingeing and moaning that the government doesn't drop everything else that it might be doing to charter a plane for anyone who, through the independent exercise of their own free will, finds themselves in discomfort.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 21 July 2006 9:42:14 AM
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Big Ted,

"Correcting my distortions"? You crack me up.

1)"Israel's 82 invasion of Lebanon (in which I personally participated)..." Geez, BT, I wouldn't admit to being part of that crime against humanity, if I were you, but the ultimate irony from your angle is that YOU helped create Hizbollah with that monumental stuff-up! Talk about own goals! Let's review 82 (& yes I do indeed see "similarities to the current situation"): Abu Nidal, enemy of Arafat, wounds Israeli ambassador in London. Begin exploits shooting to execute plan to finish off PLO in Lebanon despite PLO ceasefire and only 1 Israeli death in the 12 months before invasion. Sharon charges all way to Beirut, killing & wounding 14,000 people in 1st month, destroying vital infrastructure & imposing blockade, eventually invading West Beirut and organising Sabra/Shatila massacre after PLO departure. In come Americans, up springs Islamic Resistance to American presence and Israeli occupation, crystallizing in - voila - Hizbollah. Good work, BT.

2) The 1967 Israeli aggression was not a war of self-defence as the following Israeli leaders have attested:
Rabin: "Nasser didn't want war. The 2 divisions he sent to Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. he knew it and we knew it." (Le Monde, 28/2/68)
Eshkol: "The Egyptian layout in Sinai and the general buildup there testified to a militarily defensive Egyptian setup south of Israel." (Yediot Ahronot, 16/10/67)
Begin: "In June 67 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (New York Times, 21/9/82)

So your silly attempt to suggest that Israel is NOT into the same old biffo it's always been into falls flat on its face.
Posted by Strewth, Friday, 21 July 2006 10:14:37 AM
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Strewthie:

Sigh - are you still trotting out that old argument even though I blew its (and your) credibility out of the water during a previous exchange between us? You never learn, do you?

Here is the text of my prior refutation of your case:

"Ah, STREWTHIE,

You never let an opportunity pass to recycle an erronious assertion from a dubious lefty website. Rabin never made the comment that you attribute to him because it simply doesn't convey the true facts. You are regurgitating an anti-Israel urban myth. Why am I not surprised?

Allow me to present an accurate account of the stituation immediately prior to the commencement of the Six Day War:

After evicting the UN force, Nasser sent 5 divisions into the Sinai to reinforce the 30,000 Egyptian troops already there and the 10,000 strong Palestine Liberation Army division stationed in Gaza. The units dispatched from Egypt into the Sinai on 15-16 May 1967 included: the 5th, 2nd and 7th Infantry Divisions and the 6th and 4th Armoured Divisions, as well as several independent brigades that collectively amounted to the strength of another division. Each division was composed of about 15,000 men, and bringing the total Egyptian troop strength in Sinai to over 100,000. And they brought with them over 900 tanks, hundreds of artillery pieces of various calibres and vast ammounts of ammunition.

The Egyptian order of battle is openly available from a variety of sources on the 1967 war. Michael Oren's "Six Days of War," and Eric Hammel's "Six Days in June" are just a couple of books on the subject.

You might want to do a little reading from reputable sources before you embarass yourself further.

Posted by Ted Lapkin, Friday, 28 April 2006 8:06:02 PM"

By contrast, you cite radical anti-Zionist sociologist (not historian) Baruch Kimmerling, whose credibility has been eviscerated by scholar Efraim Karsh. You cite secondary sources coming from far-left polemicists with no academic expertise in the field. But then, why let truth get in the way of your anti-Israel invective?
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Friday, 21 July 2006 11:51:18 AM
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Riddle Me This, Ted - Part 1

Ted Lapkin, now that we have dutifully had our morality based arguments, can we turn to the underlying corporate and geopolitical reasons for the present strategies?

During the invasion of Iraq and the fall of Baghdad, a window of candour and refreshing honesty briefly opened to reveal the following:

*

Guardian 2003:

Israel's finance minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, predicted yesterday that the British-era oil pipeline from Iraq's northern oilfields through Jordan to the Israeli port city of Haifa would be reopened.

"It won't be long when you will see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa," Mr Netanyahu told a group of British investors in London. "It is just a matter of time until the pipeline is reconstituted and Iraqi oil will flow to the Mediterranean."

The pipeline was closed during the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 and has never been used since. Its rehabilitation would dramatically enhance regional economic co-operation after decades of war and mutual suspicion.

But the project is unlikely to become reality before a permanent settlement between Israel and the Palestinians.

*

Again, The Guardian 2003:

The revival of the pipeline was first discussed openly by the Israeli Minister for National Infrastructures, Joseph Paritzky, according to the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz .

The paper quotes Paritzky as saying that the pipeline would cut Israel's energy bill drastically - probably by more than 25 per cent - since the country is currently largely dependent on expensive imports from Russia.

US intelligence sources confirmed to The Observer that the project has been discussed. One former senior CIA official said: 'It has long been a dream of a powerful section of the people now driving this administration [of President George W. Bush] and the war in Iraq to safeguard Israel's energy supply as well as that of the United States.

*
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Friday, 21 July 2006 12:36:56 PM
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Riddle Me This, Ted - Part 2.

World Net Daily, 2003:

The National Infrastructure Ministry has recently conducted research indicating that construction of a 42-inch diameter pipeline between Kirkuk and Haifa would cost about $400,000 per kilometer. The old Mosul-Haifa pipeline was only 8 inches in diameter.

*

Asia Times, 2003:

Hence, unless the pipeline were redirected through Jordan, another country bordering Israel and Iraq with normalized relations with Israel, the pipeline project will require a different regime in Syria. In other words, regime change in both Iraq and Syria is the prerequisite for the project. As Paritzky did not mention a redirecting option, it is safe to suggest that the Israelis are also optimistic about a regime change in Syria in the near future.

Oil pipelines are a highly vulnerable means of exporting oil, requiring a predictable long-term reliability of the countries through which they pass. Knowing this, the Israelis can only begin their technical assessment of the pipeline once they are convinced that the existing political barriers can be overcome. This requires new regimes in Baghdad and Damascus.

*

Now Ted, as a loyal footsoldier of The Lobby, you will doubtless be aware that Turkey will get the guernsey unless Israel puts a spurt on. Mate, it's time to get those big Caterpillar D9s cracking and carve a groove straight from A to B. At 400 thou per K, with the US dollar looking shaky, there's not a minute to lose.

Leaving out god, ancient history and morality, will you now address this subject?

Over to you -
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Friday, 21 July 2006 12:38:06 PM
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Bigmal, between 1949 and 1984 British subjects were naturalised only if they elected to take out citizenship http://www.naa.gov.au/fSheets/fs68.html . My argument is that many British subjects (some estimates suggest up to 1 million) did not elect to take out citizenship, yet had the same rights (and responsibilities) as Australian citizens. I take your point on National Service, but from 1967 onwards non-naturalised non-British subjects were also eligible for National Service. According to this document http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/viet_app.htm "no national serviceman would serve overseas before having the opportunity of becoming an Australian citizen." Doesn't sound like it was compulsory.

Pericles, I don't see exactly what your point is. The UK, USA, France, Canada, Russia, India, Armenia etc etc (do a Google news search) are evacuating citizens. One of DFAT's roles is to "assist Australian travellers and Australians overseas" http://www.dfat.gov.au/dept/whatwedo.html . So are they there to help, or not? If not, sounds like we might as well close down all those expensive embassies.

2bob, "how many of the overseas dual nationals are responsible for the current situation by voting for Hezbollah. Given that so many of them reside in the South of Lebanon...I would suggest many". Feel free to suggest that 2bob. Perhaps you might even get back to us if you can find any evidence....
Posted by Johnj, Friday, 21 July 2006 1:33:29 PM
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JohnJ

OK, I stand corrected as to the detail.

I dont remember it as being optional but that might be the way it was put to me. Not that it mattered one jot anyway.

We were proud to be of service to a fantastic country. Lets hope we can keep it that way, and to do that we need to be aware of whats going on around us. The antics of the Islamicists from anywhere is frankly, a big concern.
Posted by bigmal, Friday, 21 July 2006 2:43:37 PM
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Ted the problem with dismissing the lessons that were not learnt in Vietnam is that we keep doing them.

In those days it was the dreaded reds under the beds coming to cut all of our throats and so they had to be eliminated. Well they never came in spite of about 3 million Vietnamese being slaughtered did they? Do we now demonise China as a "communist threat"? No we don't because they are so big and rich now.

Islamic fanatics are the new reds under the beds yet there are so few of them. In fact the only reason we notice them more these days is due to the same demonising as the communists during the Vietnam days yet to this day not one muslim has launched one attack on Australia in spite of a good deal of foaming at the mouth by the so-called leaders.

Now Ted. It was Israel who invaded and illegally settled part of Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights and not the Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians who invaded and occupied Israel.

The Israelis have had about 100 UN resolutions ordering them back to the 1967 borders and instead take more and more or when they are finally forced to withdraw pretend that they didn't cause chaos and misery for decades before that.

There are always two sides or even three sides to a story Ted, you just refuse to take off the blinkers and simply want to relive the glory of past battles.

Guess what Ted? No battle is glorious and when innocent children are slaughtered for the fights of others that is inglorious and a war crime.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 21 July 2006 4:46:48 PM
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I just can't believe how we have willingly imported all these religious and racial hatreds into Australia under the banner of tolerance.Will the cheap labour be worth it?

They have been fighting for centuries in the Middle East over their imagined dieties,and nothing has changed.

It does make you wonder if our pathetic humanity really does deserve a future.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 21 July 2006 9:38:42 PM
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Ted was asked on Lateline whether he and his organisation could use its influence to have Israel agree to a ceasefire to enable Australia to evacuate its citizens.

Ted didn't answer the question.

I'd like to ask Ted that question here. Ted, will your organisation use its influence in Israel to encourage the Israelis to stop shooting while Australia evacuates its citizens?
Posted by Irfan, Friday, 21 July 2006 10:17:45 PM
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Marilyn,
By the Chinese, do you refer to Pig Iron Bob's "yellow peril?" Yes it's a little bit funny isn't it. Lunatic Right Johnny "Bondai" wanting to trade with the yellow peril. Was it Lennon who said, "we will sell the west the rope, with which they will hang themselves?"
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 22 July 2006 1:52:34 AM
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Marilyn & Irfan,

Please take the time to have a close look at this site:

http://10452lccc.com/

These people are Lebanese who have been exiled because of their views. They do not blame Israel for the current situation, instead they blame Hizbollah.

It is very difficult to post the links to the articles on this site, so I will simply provide the home page address. Will you at least demonstrate the courtesy necessary to simply read their articles, with regard to the current situation where the Lebanese people having finally gotten rid of Syria and the Syrian Army have had foisted upon them a pro-Syrian President, whose actions in supporting Hizbollah have left Israel with no choice whatever.

Quite frankly, the current position for the majority of Lebanese (at least in Canada, but also from my own enquiries, in Australia as well) is that a Syrian backed organization has essentially co-opted the political process with the aid of the President, in order to prolong Lebanon’s pain. Some 1,000’s of people have therefore hijacked the political process and have, contrary to the express wishes of the majority of the 6 million Lebanese, sought to start an unwinnable war with Israel. This is why they, along with Syria and Iran are wholly blamed for the current situation.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

Unfortunately, the use of media manipulation by the terrorists and their supporter’s has clouded this issue, with the result that many well meaning, but intentionally ill informed, people are caused to support these organizations against the legitimate aims of the Lebanese people.

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060720lebanon

Please examine your own sources, do they mention this massive disinformation campaign, do they actually repeat it uncritically, and do they simply seek to prolong the status quo, without offering any way forward?

However, please understand me, I do not seek to stifle your comments. I simply seek to allow you to get the information you need in order to determine where the truth lies, but always remember this is the levant, and little if anything is easily understood.

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Saturday, 22 July 2006 10:55:12 AM
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Big Ted: You've got a fertile imagination - which is as it should be for a propagandist.

1) If Rabin "never made the comment" as you allege, your problem is with Le Monde & Baruch Kimmerling, not me.

2) I assume you find the other two quotes kosher then? In which case YOUR credibility (!) is eviscerated by Eshkol & Begin (guys with more "expertise in the field" than you), and I rest MY case.

3) Re the Egyptian troop deployment in the Sinai, typically you've left out the context - Nasser's need to show solidarity with the Syrians following Israel's shooting down of a Syrian plane and an earlier attack on Jordan. And if Nasser's move was really a threat to Israel, why did Israel reject the stationing of the same UNEF forces ("expelled" by Egypt)on its side of the border or take up U Thant's proposal to reactivate the Egypt-Israeli Mixed Armistace Commission (accepted by Nasser)? Why, if Nasser was bent on war, did he agree to negotiate a solution with the Americans, Israel attacking Egypt 2 days BEFORE the Egyptian vice-prez was due to arrive in Washington?

Like its current Lebanon rampage, Israel in 67 was spoiling for a blue.
Posted by Strewth, Saturday, 22 July 2006 8:47:10 PM
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I'll tell you what, Irfan.

I'll use whatever influence I might have to advocate for an Israeli cease fire when the Lebanese Muslim Association agrees to lobby Hizbollah to abide by UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which calls for it to disarm. Perhaps you can convince Kaysar Trad, et al, to stop denouncing Israel and start working the phones to Beirut.

Deal?
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Saturday, 22 July 2006 11:28:10 PM
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Ted Lapkin,

I have been to Israel once, and saw the Mars-like landscape around Masada, the Dead Sea, etc.. I saw Jericho and it's bullet-ridden walls, and to the west on the border with Jordan I remember seeing 3 rows of electrified razor-wire with minefields in between them. On the other side of the road there were numerous artillery batteries, etc. facing Jordan.

Ted I was raised in the Protestant tradition, where the Old testament holds a lots of significance. I have read much of the Old Testament, as I'm sure you had to when you were a kid.

Ted do you believe that the Hebrews are God's chosen people? Do you think many people in Israel hold that belief? I remember many passages in the Old Testament where it describes how God supposedly destroyed the Israelites' enemies and gave them their enemies' land.

Do you feel that the battles taking place thousands of years ago over the same pieces of turf are still in a way being re-enacted today?
Posted by Ev, Sunday, 23 July 2006 6:02:31 AM
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Ted,

1. I'm not an LMA member. I'm not of Lebanese background, so am ineligible for membership and voting rights. The LMA practises the same apartheid with membership as Israel does with citizenship.

2. Hezbollah are a Shia Muslim organisation. As far as I'm aware, the LMA is a Sunni organisation.

3. You should be directing your inquiries to the Shia Muslim al-Zahra Muslim Association in Sydney. Woops, just remembered. al-Zahra are closer to Amal, not Hezbollah. And Amal would have had some influence had Israel not joined Colonel Gaddafi in assassinating its leadership.

4. KT and thousands of other Lebanese have family members in Lebanon trying to flee the Israeli bombardment killing civilians you support.

5. What moral authority do you have to demand Hezbollah to abide by UN Resolutions? When was the last time you called upon Israel to abide by a UN Resolution, or you publicly criticised Israel for its incessant flouting of scores of UN Resolutions?

6. Your attitude of "I'll do this if you get the LMA to do that" shows utter contempt for innocent Australians endangered in Lebanon and for their families in Australia. Perhaps you subscribe to the view of the Israeli's former Chief Rabbbi who once said "The blood of a thousand Arabs is not worth a single Jewish fingernail."

7. I'm not aware of a single Lebanese or Muslim organisation in Australia which supports Hezbollah, has any influence over Hezbollah or has links with the armed wing of Hezbollah. I'm also unaware of any Australian organisation which has defended Hezbollah's disregard for civilian lives in the way or to the extent you have justified Israel's disregard for civilian lives.

8. I tell you what. I'll convey your offer to the LMA. I'll refer the LMA Prez to your comments here. I'll also write to the Muslim Community Reference Group to apply pressure on Hezbollah after getting the all-clear from the Attorney General that contacting Hezbollah's armed wing won't land them into trouble under anti-terror laws.
Posted by Irfan, Sunday, 23 July 2006 6:36:25 AM
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Ev
nice question. "Is Israel Gods chosen people"?

Not seeking to answer on behalf of Ted, (I'm also interested in his answers) I would like to point out a few very important aspects of the issue of Israel's status as 'God's chosen people'......

But, when you say 'God's chosen people'.. we need to ask "Chosen...for what"?

You need to tie down more tightly exactly what you mean by 'chosen'.

If I may, I'd like to outline the Biblical concept of Israel's chosen-ness. (quite apart from any answer Ted might offer)

1/ They were not 'chosen' for any special righteousness that they had but because of the covenant God made with Abraham which was "that all the world might be blessed" (Gen 12:1-3) Not that 'Israel alone' might be blessed. God also says in Exodus "You shall be a holy nation, a kingdom of Priests".. a nation of priests to introduce mankind to God.

Isaiah says "I will give you as a light to the nations that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth." Ch 49:6

The modern Judaistic view that they 'don't seek converts' is not only Unbiblical, it is a betrayal of Gods calling. If Jews were to be true to their calling, they would be calling ALL mankind to honour God. Unfortunately, they have missed the Messianic boat, as Christ has already come, and will come again...possibly sooner than we think.

But..that aside, while Jews retain the mindset that Christ is not the 'Messiah' they still have a solemn responsibility to seek to share God and the covenant relationship with Him to the whole world.

The concept of the Land of Israel, promised to Abraham. "I give this land to you and your descendants forever" Gen 13.15)

"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36

So, one of my proposed 'solutions' was that Arabs and Jews come to know Christ and it would end the strife tomorrow. :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 23 July 2006 8:07:12 AM
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Well, Irf:

You haven't been getting out much. Note, for example, the following pictures of a largely Muslim demonstration that was held in Sydney on Saturday.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21710_Thousands_of_Terror_Supporters_in_Sydney&only

Note the photos equating the Star of David with the swastika, and the one featuring Hilali beneath a banner accusing Israel of committing Nazi-like crimes.

But, of course, never is heard a discouraging word to Hizbullah about the death and destruction it is inflicting on Israeli civilians.

Let's remember how all this began - with an unprovoked attack across a clearly demarcated and recognised international border into Israeli territory. If Hizbullah truly cared a whit about the people of Lebanon, A) they wouldn't have picked this fight in the first place; B) they wouldn't deliberately shield their military equipment behind the skirts of their own civilian population.

Israel has a moral and legal right to defend itself against external aggression - and that's a fair definition of what Hizbollah has been doing. And, rather than "disproportionate," Israel's actions have been fully in compliance with the laws of war. If you bother to consult the controlling international treaty on the subject, the Hague Convention on the Laws and Customs of War on Land (1907), you will see that this is true.

And one more thing: This whole business clearly has Iran's fingerprints all over it. It has proved a useful means for Teheran to distract world attention from the fact that is is looking down the barrel of UN sanctions over its nuclear program.

P.S. I await the outcome of your overtures to the LMA.
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Sunday, 23 July 2006 10:25:21 AM
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Ted, you have connections. Maybe you can help me with this.

I am seeing pictures which suggest the use of something other than the usual H E ordnance:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24885&hd=0&size=1&l=e

I am reminded of Fallujiah. I am reminded of the Highway of Death. The doctors report bodies burning within intact clothing. They tell of mutilated limbs, with no shrapnel tears. They tell of swollen corpses with no bleeding.

I suppose this could just be the result of being caught within the blast radius (it's beyond my personal experience) - but the doctors insist that it is unusual. They must have seen heaps of trauma before. It goes with the territory I suppose.

Can you help explain this please Ted? It bothers me.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Sunday, 23 July 2006 11:42:59 AM
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Ted, your attempts at painting all supporters of Lebanon and Palestine as being like Hilaly are as offensive as your claims to represent all Jewish opinion in Australia.

I am confident (and my confidence is borne out of my discussions with Aussie Jews) that many if not most Jews are embarrassed by the antics of you and your organisation, by your insistence in trying to drag Jews into defending Israel at all costs.

The reality, Ted, is that you have no concern for Australians at risk in Lebanon. You refuse to use your influence in Israel for a ceasefire because you support Israel's brutal jihad of incinerating of Lebanese families. You enjoy the spectacle of civilian casualties, just as you perhaps did when you served in the IDF in Lebanon in 1982.

If you had even one ounce of love for Australia, you would use whatever powers of persuasion you have to bring about a ceasefire long enough to enable Australia to evacuate its citizens.

Let me tell you, Ted, that if a single Australian in Israel couldn't be evacuated safely because of Hezbollah rockets, I would be the first to drive down to Arncliffe Mosque and the Imam Hussein Centre and ask them to apply pressure to anyone they knew who could reach Hezbollah commanders.

I refuse to support Hezbollah's actions in breaching Israel's sovereign borders. I also refuse to support Israel's actions in incinerating Lebanese families and destroying Lebanon's infrastructure.
Posted by Irfan, Sunday, 23 July 2006 12:09:39 PM
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Chris,

re: 'Information from Occupied Iraq' @ uruknet.

Sir,

In response to your query, every single one of the 'burned' bodies, shown in situ, in this article was associated with a burning vehicle. Petrol can and is ignited by HE, and when it burns it creates a large zone wherein bodies are effectively cooked (Convection, same as in an oven). This would account for the semi-intact clothing (does a oven mit burn when you take a roast out?), the dismemberment (HE causes shrapnel) & the burned/discoloured skin/flesh (and the lack of bleeding).

I appreciate the innuendo regarding the usage of banned weapons, particularly the 'secret laser death ray', but am hard pressed to understand how a death ray would cause the dismemberment described, or the widespread burning, as lasers are by their very nature focussed light. As to chemical weapons, I do not believe, based upon my reading, that they cause spontanrous combustion of vehicles, whereas napalm & white phosphorous would of course burn the clothing and effects of the casualties, as well as their bodies, and as it contains no shrapnel causing explosive, and rarely causes dismemberment (of the type described).

I hope this answers your concerns.

PS In the interest of a fair and frank exchange of views, please visit the following:

http://10452lccc.com/
http://10452lccc.com/english06/officer21.7.06.htm
http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060720lebanon
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

This is the middle east, there are more than 2 sides to this story

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Sunday, 23 July 2006 12:28:49 PM
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News Alert!

“Downing Street said the prime minister would stand by Mr Howell's (Foreign Office minister for Blair government) comments, adding the British government had "always urged restraint on Israel".

Meanwhile thousands of people across the UK have joined demonstrations against Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Speaking in Beirut, Mr Howells said: "I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon.

Meanwhile thousands of people across the UK have joined demonstrations against Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Speaking in Beirut, Mr Howells said: "I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon. “

Read on at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5205658.stm

Israel is looking very lonely. Be interesting to hear what Bush has to say now that the Blair government has displayed some common sense and rightly condemned the invasion of Lebanon by Israel.
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 23 July 2006 12:54:47 PM
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“The reality, Ted, is that you have no concern for Australians at risk in Lebanon.”
Well said, Ifran. My question is, why are you wasting your time and energies in
Trying to change Ted Lapkin’s point of view, or change of heart. He has no heart!
I doubt he has any empathy or compassion for any one else bar himself.
I was curious about Zionists and Jewish and what the connection, or difference by
the old ‘copy/paste method and found
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ web or blog, which is self explanatory. I am still spewing
Over the Israeli Bull Dozer driving straight over poor Rachael Corrie! They have killed
off a few more innocence since & continue on & on..
Posted by ELIDA, Sunday, 23 July 2006 2:00:08 PM
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Ted

Even Bush's loyal allies are beginning to waver over Israel's liberal attempt to strangle a country that (Yes) does contain an active terrorist group.

In support of Scout's Alert (I earlier mentioned this major development as a comment on Antony's excellent current OLO article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4706 ;-)

Around 12 hours ago:

"Britain last night dramatically broke ranks with George Bush over the Lebanon crisis, publicly criticising Israel's military tactics and urging the Americans to 'understand' the price being paid by ordinary Lebanese civilians.

The remarks, made in Beirut by the Foreign Office Minister, Kim Howells, were the first public criticism by Britain of Israel's military campaign, and placed it at odds with Washington's strong support.

The Observer can ALSO REVEAL that Tony Blair voiced deep concern about the escalating violence during a private telephone conversation with the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, last week. ."

see http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1826969,00.html?gusrc=rss

Hopefully the rightwingers, Zionists and congenital anti Muslims in this string have been caught wrongfooted ;-)

Pet
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 23 July 2006 5:45:08 PM
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Tony Blair needs the votes of a large Muslim community in the UK to retain his position, George Bush does not.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 23 July 2006 9:31:31 PM
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"The right to self-defence is the crux of the Middle East crisis. It has been almost a year since Israel removed its troops and citizens from Gaza. And what have the Palestinians done with their new-found liberty? Rather than focus on the construction of their own society, the Palestinians elected a Hamas Government that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel."

You are obviously a 'Whore of Israel'. You know, those people who would bendover to be royally screwed...but only if it's kosher sausage right?

Jew/American policy is doing nothing but making living conditions worse. Israel is doing everything possible to make life hard for non-Jews with ordinary jews shooting Palestinian children for a sport.

Do you believe that destroying a whole nation is a reasonable offensive, then you, the writer, hold ideals that only feeds Terrorism. This terrorism is feeding in these nations, not ours so don't take a higher point of view.

This kidnapping of 'Israeli Soldiers' does NOT equal the extermination of a people.

Israel is today's Nazi State.
Posted by Spider, Monday, 24 July 2006 4:25:16 PM
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Allowing a religious fanatic and his militia to 'guard' the border with Israel demonstrates Lebanon's willingness to start a war with Israel. That being so, they deserve whatever comes. If the voters of Lebanon seek to return such a government then it will happen again and again, ad nauseum.

Unity, determination and superior firepower is always going to win.

The old Veitnamese trick utilised so well by Hizbollah, being guerilla warfare, only works when the person you seek to bleed is in a country where the population does not support them as an occupier. Israel has already pulled out of Lebanon and Gaza, which means that they can strike hard, fast and without remorse every single time they are attacked.

The Israeli army has no real wish to invade Lebanon, just to make sure the Lebanese (& Palestinians) see no way to profit from hitting them. Punitive raids have long succeeded in the Middle East, Israel has tried to be civilised, it is seen as weakness, and causes their enemies to attack them. Back to the old ways, hit my village, I will destroy yours.

Don't like it, what a shock.

Inshallah

2bob
Posted by 2bob, Monday, 24 July 2006 5:31:09 PM
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Today they aimed at Tel-Aviv. and Lebanon will be no more
Posted by Anil, Friday, 4 August 2006 4:05:02 PM
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