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The Forum > Article Comments > Lies as a pretext for war > Comments

Lies as a pretext for war : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 29/6/2006

How easy it is for lies and propaganda to be used as a pretext for war.

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The myth of dress codes for Jewish/Christian/Zoroastrian Iranians has been exposed but how many of us are aware that the Iranian president did NOT call for Israel to be "wiped off the the map"? This has been a dominant, demonizing myth for months, repeated ad nauseum by Zionist propagandists and their neocon allies in the world's media. The Guardian's Jonathon Steele, however, recently did some digging to find that what the Iranian president ACTUALLY said was: "The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." (Lost in Translation) In other words, far from signalling an intended nuclear attack on Israel, he was calling for regime change at some indefinite point in the future.
Posted by Strewth, Thursday, 29 June 2006 9:25:47 AM
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Iran doesn't need a PR machine to spell out it's hatred of Israel and anything to do with its poisonous existence.

The same goes for the US - it doesn't need to manufacture lies to attack or defend themselves from their enemies.

Let's be clear here that it was Islam that started the war on the US. Does 9/11 still rind a bell?

To compare Iran with Iraq is somehow pretentious. One is Shia the other Sunni. Different Islamic cultural enemies united only by their common hatred of America and Israel.

Islamic leadership of all different persuasions, language and heritage, can easily be compared to Nazism simply because they can gain and maintain power by quoting the verses of their holy book that clearly sets apart Jews and Christians as the enemy of their god Allah . Every Muslem in the Mid-east is breast-fed the Islamic "supreme race”ideology also called Ummah.

So dress code, ID cards, shaved heads or coloured arm bands will not change a true follower of Islam to NOT hate their Allah’s (god) designated enemies.

Watch this rally address from yet another self proclaimed Islamic dictator (leader), Moamar El-Kazzaffi of Libya

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1121wmv&ak=null
Posted by coach, Thursday, 29 June 2006 10:10:44 AM
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Coach says,
'The same goes for the US - it doesn't need to manufacture lies to attack or defend themselves from their enemies'

That is laughable coach, and yes I remember the horrible events of 9/11, but I don't remember seeing any concrete proof of who was behind it.
Posted by Carl, Thursday, 29 June 2006 10:29:39 AM
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A lie about things most Westerners don't give a damn about in no way reduces the threat Iran poses to the West and to Israel.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 29 June 2006 10:47:21 AM
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Carl... 'concrete proof'... have you been living in a hole in the ground each time the video of Bin Ladin discussing how 'we' did it was aired ?
Or..do you consider that his lips said other things than the audio, which of course was 'dubbed' by some 'Osama sounding' CIA dupe ?

C'mon mate.. get real. Debate things which are actually solid. All you showed with that 'no concrete proof' thing was that no matter HOW convincing the proof is, you will not believe it.

Pretexts for war have been found throughout history. By all sides.
Mohammed used an obscure attack by allies of the Quraysh in Mecca on allies of his to justify breaking the Treaty of Hudabiya, invading Mecca and killing key people ... so ? what else is new. (He would have found some reason to break it anyway, it was just a matter of timing)

Mohamed's flunky Kalid Bin al Waleed murdered the brother of Christian prince Ukaydir of Duma in northern Arabia and offered the Prince 'Islam (or death-by implication)' His 'pretext' was that the prince refused to be a TRAITOR to his Byznatine allies and become a turncoat and ally himself with Mohamed and the Muslims.

Mohamed wanted a buffer zone and some buffer canon fodder between him and the Byzantines, so he insisted that the northern tribes ally with him so THEY would be slaughtered first in the event of a Byzantine attack. Giving him breathing space to gather his forces.

The kidmapping of an Israeli soldier is not exactly a pretext, but the claim that Al Aksa brigade has chemical and biological
WMD capability sure is. If reports are accurate they justify complete all out war on all Palestinians. If they are just an Israeli beat up, it doesn't change the fact of Qassam rockets being an act of war, so.. same result.

I just don't understand why, a little rat, you would irritate an Elephant with big feet or a Cobra with chain guns. "A mystery indeed".
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 29 June 2006 11:13:30 AM
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Gday Boaz, if I was going to upset anyone with that last post, i'm glad it was you, you claim that no matter how much evidence there is against Bin Laden I would not beleive it, I think the same goes for you, and no matter how many fishy coincedences become known from that day, you will ignore them.

I do not claim to know exactly what happened on that day, Bin Laden probably was involved, but some visual evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon would be good, oh wait, the most secure building in the world seems to have misplaced its surveillance tapes that day, of course.

As I sit here with my tinfoil hat waiting for the roswell aliens to take me away, I look forward to your next post Boaz.
Posted by Carl, Thursday, 29 June 2006 11:36:38 AM
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There were only 3 relevant words in Bamboozled's post: "I don't understand."
Posted by Strewth, Thursday, 29 June 2006 12:04:29 PM
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BOAZY

On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”
Posted by Steve Madden, Thursday, 29 June 2006 1:35:49 PM
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Only the mentally ill can kill their fellow man with no passion. Everyone else needs to be worked up to it by lies and half truths.
Beware of the man.
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 29 June 2006 1:55:35 PM
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Steve, what you said was more a reflection of the administrative procedures of the US government/agencies, not about the fact of Bin Ladin's own admission.

Carl -Don't get me wrong, I won't portray Bush and co as spotless or whiter than snow, I am also a victim of the economic 'Right' and its attempt to influence the Australian government to 'tweak' our pharmeceutical benefits scheme to allow them to evergreen patents and charge us like wounded bulls for medicines we can get at generic rates.

I'm more coming from the 'Clash of Civilizations' angle. (though, to include Islam in that is playing very loose with terminology)

Strewthy, close but no cigar....again. (ridicule undermines your own credibility mate..such as remains of it.. very little I'd guess)

Here is why.

If you 'listen' and 'look' at such things as the London protests over the cartoons, you will observe that they refer to the SAME EVENTS as I do, but in their case they do it to try to terrorize us. Just one example:

"Remember the Jews of Khaibar" Now, who other than one who has studied Islamic history would make any sense out of that ? Yet...they make a sign and wave it in our faces in 2006 ! So, my references to that which to most is 'obscure and meaningless arab history' is rather -MOST up to date in terms of understanding the mindset of the most dangerous among the Islamic community.

While the average Muslim, or enlightened souls such as Irfan and Fellow Human are no danger, its not 'them' I worry about. They are hopefully not going to hack my email address, find my home address,hunt me down and slash the throats of my wife and children as happened to a coptic family in New Jersey who carried on similar 'on line' activities such as I do.

Misrepresentations of fact, or, even the manufacturing of incidents (Gulf of Tonkin/Vietnam... "Children overboard" (what an insult that was to our voting sense)) are common place in persuading the 'masses' to support War.
Pity the masses arn't as smart as us :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 29 June 2006 2:33:54 PM
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People inside the world trade centre thought it was a bomb.

apart from diverting our energies away from the issue, Iran is going to be taken over anyway as part of the US and Israels extreme makeover of the middle east.

Does not matter what, where, why or how, the propoganda machine has already began drip feeding us to build resentment and this is set to continue to the big day.

Good on you Irfan, i agree with you for a change.
Posted by Realist, Thursday, 29 June 2006 2:41:25 PM
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BOAZ,
I'm afraid that "famous" video of Bin Laden taking reponsibility for 911 has been widely discredited as a fake - conveniently discovered but badly done.

I'm more interested in why he was in Dubai Hospital for dialysis a few months before 911 and again in a military hospital in Pakistan for several days (in discussions with the CIA)- when he already on their "wanted list". That information was leaked by French intelligence in reponse to GWB's attacks on France before the Iraq war and has never been publicly discussed.

The US entry into the Spanish war, WW1, WW2, Vietnam and Granada were all based on staged events in which innocents died.
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 29 June 2006 3:44:00 PM
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Coach,

That MEMRI video clip of Gaddaffi is bizarre.

Just goes to show what the west is up against,irrespective of who is telling what Porkies, and for what reason.

Then again the Islamacists have made porky telling an art form. Taqqiya is it not.?

The threat to Europe that Gaddaffi talks about is real.

Not bad for a religion that has done bugger all for humanity.
Posted by bigmal, Thursday, 29 June 2006 4:07:29 PM
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Here there be fruitcakes - http://www.unitedpeoples.net/

"The destructive forces threatening the planet are not difficult to identify. All destructive power and viciousness is concentrated in the corporate US empire of evil. On top of the evil is the bunch of fascistic religious fanatics, nazionists, neocons and other rightwing extremists within the corporate ruling US circles. The religious ones are looking forward to receiving their exclusive premiums after the end of the world.

Their power bases - like those of Hitler and Bush - essentially are launching platforms for their deadly revenge for their evil childhood. The culture of sadistic child mistreatment among white, in particular Anglo-American, parents must stop now. From the point of view of Mother Earth, humiliation of a child is the absolutely worst of all crimes.

For 500 years it has been great fun and necessary for the sake of colonialism to torture the kids physically and mentally. But the sane part of human kind must now stop this luxurious sport, if the planet is to be saved.

The urgent cultural revolution must replace the 3000 years old unspeakably devastating set of 10 commandments ...

The cultural revolution will be grossly enhanced by the eradication of the cancer tumor of the planet which immediately will be followed by a recovery from the worldwide cultural setback and metastatic oppression imposed by the empire of terror.

Depopulation is a significant part of the evil empire policies ... Next after the general imperialist policies with billions of victims, AIDS by far is the most successful of the US-made genocides serving its depopulation schemes ...

The latest series of other US genocides include:

* September 11, 2001 ... as pretext for Afghanistan and Iraq
* SARS
* The Boxing Day tsunami
* Car (not suicide) bombing of Iraqi mosques and seemingly meaningless assassinations of Shiite alternating with Sunni clerics for the purpose of instigating the civil war that is the only possible remaining pretext for the colonialists to stay on top of the oil."

Anyone for joining them?? Ha, ha.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Thursday, 29 June 2006 4:33:32 PM
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savage

I have high dose methyl prenisolone to blame for my loopy comments. These Guys are fruit cakes.
Posted by Steve Madden, Thursday, 29 June 2006 5:02:15 PM
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Mr Irfan Yusuf, as a lawyer you should know that lies are so ubiquitous that truth has almost become extinct, and 'truth' was dealt many mortal blows by liberal censorship in its many disguises. “That’s offensive, or racist, or homophobic, or misogynistic etc etc.”
The truth is that muslims want to take over the world and the main advantage the non-muslims have is nuclear. Bush might be a thickhead but I prefer stupid American freedom over being ruled by mad mullahs. Religion is lies, politics is lies, advertising is lies, but take a look at a chunk of truth right here. http://www.ogrish.com/archives/russian_diplomats_executed_by_mujahedeen_shura_council_Jun_25_2006.html
Posted by citizen, Thursday, 29 June 2006 5:44:51 PM
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"it was Islam that started the war on the US . Does 9/11 still rind (sic) a bell?
There are at least 2 major flaws with this statement.

Firstly 9/11 was not the start of any conflict. This was just another episode in a conflict that has gone on for many years. Who started it, who is to blame? You could argue until the cows come home over this but the US certainly didn't have clean hands by the time of 9/11. And the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Secondly, while the apparent perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim, that doesn't make Islam as a religion culpable. This is like saying many Catholic priests are paedophiles, therefore the Catholic religion is responsible for paedophilia.

Of course lies and propoganda are used as a pretext for war - by all sides. Otherwise you would never get the people to support the carnage
Posted by rossco, Thursday, 29 June 2006 6:35:37 PM
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Careful, citizen. If I'm not mistaken, you are about to be accused by Irf of ‘hating all Muslims’.

< .. how did such an obvious lie find its way into reports of major newspapers and speeches of prime ministers>

Probably because it’s not difficult to believe, given the close and abiding connection between Nazism and Islam plus the anti-Semitism of Muslims in the Middle East.

In 2005, Iranians saw a television fiction series titled, ‘Zahra's Blue Eyes’ or ‘For You, Palestine’. The program follows the career of a fictional Israeli political candidate who supports the harvesting of the organs of Palestinian children by Israeli doctors. The fictional candidate is especially interested in obtaining seven-year old Zahra's eyes for his own son because her eyes remind him of his wife's. This series is mentioned in the US State Department's report on anti-Semitism around the world.

http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/2005-01/a-2005-01-25-2-1.cfm

From 1963 to 1979, Jews enjoyed cultural and religious autonomy under Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. This came to an end with the advent of the Islamic regime.

At an international conference on Palestine, held in Tehran in 2001, Ayatollah Khamene’i stated that there was 'evidence on hand that a large number of non-Jewish hooligans and thugs of Eastern Europe were forced to migrate to Palestine as Jews.'

The supposed purpose was 'to install in the heart of the Islamic world an anti-Islamic state under the guise of supporting the victims of racism' thus dividing the world of Islam.

Khamene’i added that historical documents demonstrated 'close collaboration of the Zionists with Nazi Germany' and that the 'exaggerated numbers' of Jews killed in the Holocaust, were 'fabricated to solicit the sympathy of world public opinion, lay the ground for the occupation of Palestine and justify the atrocities of the Zionists'. (IRNA, 24 April 2001).

So why is anyone surprised that people would believe the yellow star story?
Posted by dee, Thursday, 29 June 2006 6:51:08 PM
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Thanks for nothing Citizen, your post should be deleted. How dare you link to an over-18 site without at least warning us? Didn't the fact that the top sponsor's link was "Sexy Teens Dating" suggest to you maybe that this wasn't a legitimate news source? Do you really rely on this sort of site to inform yourself?

Savage Pencil thanks for the link to http://www.unitedpeoples.net : that colour scheme BY ITSELF constitutes a crime against humanity.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 29 June 2006 6:58:31 PM
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Talk about lies, Infan, just read an article in last week's Guardian called 'Another King called George". It tells how the British Georgian rulers accepted laws from Parliament then changed them to suit themselves.

Now Americana's Georgie Boy is up to the same tricks, said to have signed more than 750 Congressional laws since he took office, later redefining with his own spin, though possibly with Cheney and Rumsfeld looking over his shoulder.

Wonder whether George W's close buddy boy Johnnie Howard is up to the same tricks over here?
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 29 June 2006 7:39:31 PM
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Things are bad enough in Iran without fabricating stories to suit your neocon mates. There is increasing persecution of Baha'i's http://bahai.org/persecution/iran and it may be that this is partly a result of the USA's hawkish rhetoric on Iran. It doesn't help that the Baha'i World Centre is in Haifa, Israel, but Baha'i links to Haifa go back to 1868, long before Israel's establishment.

It seems that the Bush administration has learned nothing from the debacle in Iraq if they are seriously contemplating a military incursion in Iran. Even though they are a persecuted minority, none of my Australian Baha'i friends see a war as anything but an unmitigated disaster. Baha'i's are pacifists who don't believe that wars solve anything. I tend to agree.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 29 June 2006 8:52:10 PM
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Hmmm…looks like Realist really CAN be a realist at times. Mr Boaz is still off in La La Land though.

The lies and spin mentioned in this article remind me of the video made by some guy in Europe which was pieced together from a video game called Battlefield. It starts with a dubbed voice saying:

"I was just a boy when the infidels came to my village in Blackhawk helicopters..."

This line comes from Team America, the satirical movie from the creators of South Park. The Bush Administration and Murdoch’s News Corp. discovered it and ran with it, telling everyone that it was from a terrorist recruitment game! A classic example of how dumb the lies and propaganda of our current neo-conservative governments are.

…Oh but the interest rates!
Posted by Mr Man, Thursday, 29 June 2006 11:19:41 PM
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Johnj comment that "There is increasing persecution of Baha'i's ...iran and it may be that this is partly a result of the USA's hawkish rhetoric on Iran."

Sounds a bit like blaming the Nazi persecution of the Jews on Hitler's opponents.
The blame lies totally in Iran’s court and once more it’s been going on from generations.
The Parsi/Zoroastrsians minority suffered similarly, until they choose to leave Iran enmass.
It's a subset of the general intolerance/mistreatment of non-Muslim minorities found in most Islamic countries.
Posted by Horus, Friday, 30 June 2006 5:32:18 AM
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It's easy for lies and propaganda to be used as a pretext for war.

The Americans are experts. Remember the Alamo and the war of Guadaloupe. It was unconsitutional for the US to invade a country unless that country invaded the US first. But in 1810, they needed Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, Colorado, and Nevada, knowing that there was "gold in them hills". Desperate for war, they actually dressed US soldiers as Mexicans, ordered them to go to Mexico, and return to US territory with gunfire. It looked like the US was being invaded by Mexico. They declared war, and Mexico could do nothing but attempt to defend itself.

Japan was already at war with the Allies before Pearl Harbour WWII. The HMS Sydney was bombed by Japanese submarines, not the German Kormerant, as written in History. The Kormerant bombed the HMS Lucitania, so the HMAS Sydney Bombed the Kormorant. The Kormorant didn't have time to bomb the HMS Sydney back. The Chinese cooks on the Kormorant released their knowledge of Japanese subs bombing the Australian war ship. Why is this a big deal?

This was a few weeks before Pearl Harbour, and the news had to be silenced at all costs. Members of the Kormerant survived on the West Coast of WA, but no survivors of the HMS Sydney were found. HMS Sydney was closer to the coast. Documents were found suggesting that Australian military actually shot HMS Sydney Survivers to keep it a secret. This would steal the thunder of a great performance. Pearl Harbour had to be staged to shock the world.

There are now documents that prove that the CIA knew the exact schedule and plans of 9 /11, staging the performance for the highest possible fear factor. No surprise in the history of war.

Who started it? Who was the director of the performance? Who orchestrated the swift departure of the Bin Laden family after the scene of the crime?

We all know he knows oil, but speaks more Texan than Arabic.
Posted by saintfletcher, Friday, 30 June 2006 6:33:27 AM
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Great timing Irfan. Good to see how horribly wrong you can really be.
"Supporters of the war with Iraq told us the Iraqis were conspiring with al-Qaida and were hiding weapons of mass destruction. Subsequently, we all learned these alleged "facts" used to justify the invasion of Iraq were lies."

Both of these have now been vindicated. Over 500 Chemical shells have been found (although degraded they are still harmful) and there are proven links to Al Qaida. But even if these had not been proven, it does not show that these claims were lies.

"We were also told the Coalition of the Killing would establish order and restore resources to Iraqis. Yet in the five months since a Shiite Muslim shrine was destroyed, more than 25,000 Iraqis have died in sectarian violence."

"Coalition of the Killing"? I'm sorry Irfan, but this is laughable tripe. Can't you even try and pretend to not be a moonbat? No-one said that the rebuilding process would be swift or easy. Serious progress has been made, but obviously more progress is needed.

My real prediction is that you never supported the war in iraq. That it didn't matter to you whether there were ties to Al-qeada or WMD and banned weapons and programs. That it didn't matter to you how brutal Saddam was. All this talk of objecting to being mislead is just a smokescreen for your own moonbattery.

Lies and Propaganda? Have you been reading your own stuff again?
Posted by Alan Grey, Friday, 30 June 2006 9:54:18 AM
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For those with a teeny-weeny memory span:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13600653/site/newsweek

I am getting so tired of pointing out that the nameplate on the war machine says MADE IN THE USA.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Friday, 30 June 2006 11:05:58 AM
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Good article Irfan,

You touched on an interesting point of Saladin History.
Saladin philosophy of liberating Jerusalem was a secular non religious one. He basically defended residents of Palestine (Muslims, Jews and Christians) from the French mercenaries as he called them. Saladin never distinguished between people religions.

Alan Grey,

You talk about 'supporting the war' in Iraq as if its a soccer game!
There are many ways to overthrow a dictator but invasion of cities is not and should not be one of them.
Since the 1950's the US developed good expertise in supporting and overthrowing dictators in the Middle East. No one can argue that Saddam had to go but not at the price tag of destruction of the country and thousands of civilian casualties.

Only people who lack vision can see the world through the 'pro' and 'anti' blinkers.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 30 June 2006 11:24:06 AM
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Alan grey, you may think that myself and others are anti-american, knee-jerk anti-establishments types who need a hobby but you are wrong.

You have been seriously misled , and maybe its just easier for you to remain this way.

But I am young, and I am concerned for my future and the future of my country. I am worried about the implications of Australia (and especially the US) waking up one day and realising that they have been duped, that there blood has been sacrificed for imperial wars of agression.

America will wake up wondering how their government fell into the hands of a right-wing extremist group currently known as Project for the new American Century and they will rebel, and once again the lights will go out, not over Europe, but over the whole world.

But while ever people like you remain in their slumber nothing will change, the wheels will continue to turn towards totalitarinism, not in the traditional sense, but the freedoms we once cherished will be a dim memory.
Posted by Carl, Friday, 30 June 2006 11:30:24 AM
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@Carl You are right to fear that "the freedoms we once cherished will be a dim memory" but other the right-wing extremists are the religously insane muslims setting the agenda which is forcing all-concerned to jettison compassion and civility in what will become a global battle. Look at the videos of people having their heads hacked off with blunt knives and listen to the creeps chanting allah akbar, allah akbar, allah akbar in the background like they are having an evil orgasm. The fiction that there is just a small percentage of extremists is misleading because Islam is an all encompassing concept perfectly suited to the totalitarianism you seem to fear most. What you think, how and when you pray (sic), what you eat, what you wear, how long your beard is, and who you hate. Go and live in an islamic country for a while and you may wake up,to yourself.
Posted by citizen, Friday, 30 June 2006 2:02:21 PM
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Ah Carl....your line about 'imperial wars of agression [sic]' is a dead give away. More socialist propaganda probably passed onto you by leftist material.

I haven't been mislead. Unfortunately, you seem to simply ignore evidence that contradicts your somewhat slanted worldview. This is why you fail to realise the only end to a socialist leftist 'progressive' agenda is totalitarianism. But take comfort, that will never happen because your softheaded nonsense will allow others to take country of our nations well before that end.
Posted by Alan Grey, Friday, 30 June 2006 2:14:46 PM
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Citizen, I am not discriminatory, I despise Islamic extremist leaders who use religion to spread their message of hatred just as much as I despise so called christians who do the same.

But I beleive that you have missed a key point, Islamic fundamentalist leaders like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran have nowhere near the military or economic strength that the right-wing extremist leaders in America do. It is for this reason that I genuinely fear what will happen if the US continues on its destructive path. The ramifications of massive social upheaval in the US are likely to be severe, not for people in far off places, but for you and me.

Ah, but the Islamic countries could also pose a threat to us I hear you say. That is unlikely, yes they can disrupt our oil supply and hurt our economy but from a military standpoint they dont stand a chance.

Instead of fear mongering us with Islamaphobia you should look closer to home to identify the real threats
Posted by Carl, Friday, 30 June 2006 2:29:06 PM
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Carl - <Islamic fundamentalist leaders like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran have nowhere near the military or economic strength that the right-wing extremist leaders in America do>

True. But this is why Muslim extremists are attacking us within our own countries. Thats why they are intent on outbreeding the populations of European countries and attempting to enact sharia law in the West.

If large scale Muslim immigration transforms Europe into Eurabia, there will be no need to invade the West. It will be a fait accompli. 'Massive social upheaval' is already here.

< ..sacrificed for imperial wars of agression>.

Yes, you are young, I can tell by the language of lefty propaganga passed on by your teachers.
Posted by dee, Friday, 30 June 2006 4:12:43 PM
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@Carl Don't bother despising, just wake up to how dangerous the collision between fundamentalist jews, fundamentalist christians and fundamentalist muslims is becoming for everyone. They all yearn for armageddon. Religion is proof of just how stupid humans are but why should the rest of humanity suffer. Jihadis don't need sophisticated weapons systems because they have a billion morons at their disposal. Religion should be recognised for the mental illness that it is. Wake up, they hate everything you stand for.
Posted by citizen, Friday, 30 June 2006 5:56:59 PM
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Most of the posts on this topic are not more than propaganda, based in political / philosophical / religious bias.

There will never be a society where one political /philosophical / religion held by its leaders will please all citizens. Any society that wishes to make it so will have to kill off dissenters.

The only society that can survive is one who allows freedom for every individual political / philosophical / religious views; and accepts others right to hold them. What appears as lies to one is believed as fact to another.

The quality of that society is how one relates to another within, with a different political / philosophical / religious view. That is why it is important to view the laws, culture and actual criminalising practises occurring within that society on its own citizens and by its citizens before concluding what is best practise.
Posted by Philo, Friday, 30 June 2006 8:11:41 PM
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Since Dee and Alan know so much about the truth, maybe they could fill the world in on some questions that no other neocon has been able to explain:

1. Why are 7 of the 19 9/11 hijackers still alive and living normal lives?

2. Why was the world shown footage of Bin Laden conversing with his fellow terrorists about the 9/11 attacks faked?

- Bin Laden wearing a gold ring, forbidden by Islamic law
- Bin Laden writing with his right hand despite the FBIs website stating that he is left handed.
- Bin Laden not even looking anything like himself. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

3. Why is it that the only video footage of the Pentagon strike we get to see is a time-lapse video that doesn’t show a plane hitting it, yet the Pentagon is surrounded by video cameras? If there’s no truth to the conspiracy theories then why don’t they just show all the other footage that shows a plane hitting the only wall built for to withstand that sort of impact (a handy coincidence)?

4. Why is it that we still haven’t seen the footage from the cameras from the rooftops of all the hotels surrounding the Pentagon that the plane would have passed over? Not to mention the cameras on the highways that the plane would have flown strait over?

Why the need for all the secrecy?

If there is no truth in the conspiracy theories then why did Bush feel the need to address them?

If there is no truth in the conspiracy theories then why have they ignored most of them and misrepresented the rest of them at http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1 ?

It’s funny how the neocons are so sure of what the truth is yet they can’t find any answers to biggest inconsistencies of the whole 9/11 and Iraq war situation.
Posted by Jinx, Friday, 30 June 2006 10:25:31 PM
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Horus, perhaps I should have prefaced my remarks by denouncing the autocratic/theocratic regime that's now in charge in Iran. However I'd have thought (foolishly it appears) that my contempt for Iran's ruling junta was self-evident.

Saintfletcher, if you're going to peddle unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about the Sydney you should note that; a] It is HMAS (not HMS) Sydney, b] the German raider was the Kormoran (not Kormorant or Kormerant) and c) that the RMS Lusitania (not HMS Lucitania) was sunk in WW1 not WW2 (and definitely not by the Kormoran or Kormorant). As for the stuff on 9/11, what can I say.....

I find myself agreeing with Citizen and Philo. Surely no religion (or idealogy or point of view) is worth a single human life? If your beliefs say it is OK to kill someone else (self-defence excepted) then your beliefs- no matter how strongly held- are worthless. "Pre-emptive strike" is just propaganda excusing murder, which I guess brings us back to Irfan's original point.

In his book "Faces of the enemy" Sam Keen argues that the propaganda comes first. While he probably overstates his case, his introduction is worth repeating given all the hatreds expressed in this thread. "In the beginning we create the enemy. Before the weapon comes the image. We think others to death and then invent the battle-axe or the ballistic missiles with which to actually kill them. Propaganda precedes technology."
Posted by Johnj, Friday, 30 June 2006 10:54:34 PM
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I find myself agreeing with Philo for the first time.

I can forgive the conspiracy theories because they at least show that we are not all believing everything that we’re being told - Something that is needed for a healthy society. Especially in this case though, as there are some interesting questions that have been raised that don’t seem to have any other rational explanation (as of yet anyway).

But here we have Alan Grey, buying into every bit of crap that FOX News spoon-feeds him and raising the point of totalitarianism…BUT...only in the context extreme Leftist governments; all the while ignoring that extreme Rightwing governments would have the exact same result. After all: Extreme Rightwingism = Fascism = Totalitarianism.

The leftists are often accused of being “doomsdayers” when they raise the point of totalitarianism as the end result of extreme Rightwingism, yet it seems OK for Mr Grey over here to make the exact same claims about Leftwing governments.

It seems alright for our mainstream media to spew neo-conservative propaganda, but as soon as anyone raises questions about what we’re being told, then they’re suddenly a socialist.

Ahh…yes, the bias and hypocrisy is really starting to show now. And many thanks to Alan’s simple mind for making it obvious.
Posted by Mr Man, Saturday, 1 July 2006 12:37:55 AM
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The Bush military commissions are illegal, conspiracy is not a legitimate war crime - but does Howard or Bush say sorry? No way. The continue the tripe that David Hicks is a mass murderer, never mind that he has been charged with guarding a tank, has never fired a gun at anyone and the old bazooka story was a posed scam.

Iraq had nothing to do with September 11 but the US has been reaming millions, billions out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Iran for decades to get the oil.

Alan Grey - those "weapons" were useless sarin and mustard gas that ran out of puff 15 years ago. Get a grip man.

The people of Afghanistan had no role in the September 11 crime against humanity, yet tens of thousands of them have been slaughtered or are dying of starvation.

We locked up refugees who escaped the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, sometimes for years. We locked up the Iranians escaping the mad Mullahs even longer.

So much for terror regimes.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Saturday, 1 July 2006 2:49:36 AM
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Afghanistan, 2006, still under the Taliban.... Marily Shepherd is there as a 'peace activist' and suddenly a Taliban 'religious policeman' notices her ankle is exposed. He rushes over with a long cane and begins welting into her over and over..screaming "COVER UP that ankle you slutty ignorant infidel whore !"

Marilyn.. please stop with this 'we are the bad guys' mantra.... a bit of careful thought and reflection will help you here.

CITIZEN

"They all yearn for armageddon. Religion is proof of just how stupid humans are but why should the rest of humanity suffer"

If you read Matthew 24 and Luke 17 you might rephrase that from 'yearn' to 'fear'.

Christians yearn for the return of Christ, not Armageddon.

Enthusiastic Christians of a 'pre-millenial' Last Days persuasion feel that contributing to the restoration of Israel is important in preparing the way for Christs return. Let me say emphatically, that there is nothing 'we' can do to hasten or delay that coming. It will come 'as a thief in the night' when you least expect it.

The important point is, 'are we ready' to meet Him ? Are you ?

Jews yearn for the coming of their Messiah, (a political/military/Spiritual one, which is one reason many of them rejected Jesus.. too meek, but WAIT...there's more and we will see it at his second coming.)

Muslims yearn for their 70 virgins/huries.

The 'lies' etc used to justify war/invasion, which is the topic, come from a variety of sources. Its a bit difficult to quantify how much comes from which source. All I see is those who posters most despise being blamed.

I think we can be sure of one thing, most political lies come to the surface and return to bite those who perpetrate them in the bum.

Just out of curisosity, can you point to any regime of any political flavor of any time in all history, where such lies have not been used to promote the interests of that regime ? :)

"All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3.23
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 1 July 2006 8:15:46 AM
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So far on this thread we have the Iranian Government and Saddam being more honourable that the Bush /Blair /Howard joint war administration. The Taliban more honourable than John Howard and his lies. That 9/11 was the work of the CIA and not convicted muslim extremists. Who believes the lies and who is promoting propaganda? I suggest you live in those countries you believe have high and honourable motives before abusing democratic countries, with governments that will not please all the citizens.

Who is promoting death to dissidents citizens so one world peaceful view might reign supreme? They are certainly not democratic nations but totalitarian, whose dissents want to flee this promotion of peace. Totalitarian societies believe in death to intellectual citizens with a different view, and democratic societies will actively resist totalitarian Governments to protect the right of its citizens to life and individual thought. Those with totalitarian views that wish to threaten or undermine peaceful coexistence by creating fear, terror or harm in a democratic nation must be incarcerated.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 1 July 2006 9:41:17 AM
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Nay -

I have seen the enemy,

And he is us.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Saturday, 1 July 2006 9:44:05 AM
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Mr Boaz,

”… can you point to any regime of any political flavor of any time in all history, where such lies have not been used to promote the interests of that regime ?”

I couldn’t. Stalin, Hitler…you name it. They’ve all used lies and propaganda to push their agenda.

But I think the reason so many are crying-out-loud in this case is because it’s happening now and it affects us all. Not only that, but we are living amongst many who have bought into it all, but more importantly, our own Prime Minister is going along with it!

Philo,

” So far on this thread we have the Iranian Government and Saddam being more honourable that the Bush /Blair /Howard joint war administration…”

No one’s saying they’re more honourable (except maybe Chris). There’s just not as much point is stating the obvious. We already know how evil the Taliban, Saddam, etc. are, we just need to be vocal about our own governments too. Otherwise they’ll think they can get away with anything.

Marilyn,

”Alan Grey - those "weapons" were useless…etc.”

Yeah…Good point. But I wouldn’t worry too much about Grey. He treats anyone who has peripheral vision as “Moonbats” [SIC].

Here’s a nice little list of facts that his kind are conveniently ignoring:

1. Halliburton, the company that Dick Cheney is the former CEO of (what a coincidence) is an oil-drilling company. Their stocks have risen nearly $80,000,000 since the invasion of Iraq. Not to mention the numerous others who, together, have made billions-upon-billions of dollars from this war.

2. A regime change in Iraq had been planned in early 2001 by a neo-conservative think-tank involving Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Jeb Bush.

3. General Wesley Clark, a decorated, four-star general in the US army and supreme allied commander of NATO, was asked by the Bush administration to pin the 9/11 attacks on Saddam.

*But all of this is just a co-incidence. In reality, Bush and his cronies have blown nearly $250,000,000 to free those evil people who are capable of throwing their children overboard.

*Denotes sarcasm.
Posted by Mr Man, Saturday, 1 July 2006 10:15:24 AM
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Well, let me just to quote an ancient Greek philosopher's logic within Socrates principle. Who taught his students that pursuit of the truth can only begin, once they start question and analyse every belief (ever held dear). If a certain creed passes the scrutiny of evidence, deduction and logic, it should be kept.

Otherwise any such sly conviction, should not only be discarded but the thinker must also then question (since the big lie always leaves a trail of sleazy force of credibility) why he or she was led to swallow Jewanderthals fed concoctions in the first place?

Not surprisingly, this type of a commonsense teaching didn't sit well with earlier Judeo ruling elite of the ancient Greece. Equally ever since, elders-of-zion incubated world political leaders have always sought throughout the history to mislead their electoral constituents by hook or by crook. Yet Socrates himself was indicted and tried for purported youth corruption and vile regime subversion. Ultimately forced to take his own life, by drinking hemlock's poison.

So it's never easy to be an independent thinker. These days zionazi ruled global establishments (courtesy of a mass media miasma) don't kill our conscientious dissidents right away for pursuing the truth. They label blacklisted battlers as paranoid and extremist misfits. Invariably destroying thus good reputations and life's vital careers.

For some, such a fate being worse than drinking hemlock's poison. For others it's just realisation that life wasn't meant to be easy towards the adamant dissidents in breaking the tyranny of silence on globally plagued hegemony.
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 1 July 2006 10:27:27 AM
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Lol Mr Man. Regime change in Iraq was planned by Clinton's Administration, why wait for early 2001.

Those weapons were degraded, not useless. Less effective but still capable of great damage. Of course, I doubt you will care that Saddam didn't destroy the chemical weapons that he said he had. You opposition to the war wasn't based on whether or not saddam had such weapons (ironically, neither was my support for the war), but you want to continue to your fantasy world in order to try and label those like Bush and Howard as liars.

Your problem Mr Man is that you can't see past your own huge prejudices. Every move that pushes a country away from the socialist left is somehow a move towards totalitarianism to you. What a joke.
Posted by Alan Grey, Saturday, 1 July 2006 11:39:18 AM
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To all those of the "9/11 was a huge CIA conspiracy" etc.. mob...

-Has anyone explained the engine part retrieved from the Pentagon, such that it shows it was a missle ?
-Have any of the 'It was a missile' crowd done anything about the passenger manifest of flight 77 and shown the people on it are still alive ?
Here it is http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html
Video of the plane >http://judicialwatch.org/flight77.shtml

-The Osama tape has not been shown to be a fraud, it is 'widely criticized' as such by particular political interests.

SERIOUSLY. a question to all of us.....

If 'They' are actually 'us' (i.e. as Chris says 'we are the enemy')
do any of you really.. really.. honestly.. truly expect that we would have a more transparent, honest, dinky dye, faultless, blemishless, open government such as we had under Mr Whitless ? err.. with Lionel Murphy that paragon of virtue, and the Arab loans affairs, Al Grasby white anting our cultural/ethnic cohesian for base political gain, Theofanous taking immigration related bribes from ethnic interests.. etc etc...

So, my question is... 'to whom' or 'to what' do you all look for the real answer to the problems you raise ? Chairman Mao's little red book ? :) The Ananda Marga ? Elton John ? Marx ? The hollywood celebrities who know all the answers, the Tooth Fairy ?

Lets look at the USA.. Democrats gain power... they legalize the Mexican flag waving/Retake the lost territory/Immigrant rights/Lets make Spanish the national language/Now WE are a majority mob who then join forces with the Dems until they can conveniently discard them etc.....

I mean.. to be brutally honest, the potential to make an already screwed up mess even worse is horrendously on our doorstep.

By all means point out any vested interest such as possibly Halliburton etc.. but what are u offering as an alternative?

Crucify Howard,Blair,Bush ... and your viable,squeaky clean alternative is..... ?

Does it reallllly surprise anyone that I'm constantly harping on 'New people (not a different system) make good government' ? That I Bible bash, and point to Christ ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 1 July 2006 1:11:10 PM
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David you bible bash in your quaint little church because religion of all hues is the last and final refuge for scoundrels who refuse to think for themselves and comes just underneath that other refuge for scoundrels - you know the one David, the good folks of Cronulla who wrap themselves in the flag and call themselves "patriots".

1. Iraq has never done anything to Australia, has not killed any Australian's in Australia, or locked up our children in the desert or drowned hundreds of them or sent them to birdpoo islands, or stolen from them or bombed them or even shouted and screamed at them. Us that is.

2. I claim the above even though a beautiful, kind and generous young journalist I met was murdered in Kurdistan by a suicide bomber in March 2003, the first ever car bomb anywhere in Iraq it its history.

3. IF those regimes were and are so terrible why did we lock up the folks who escaped them, vilify them as baby chucking murderers not worthy of our help, call them hijackers on the TAMPA, turn them back into the sea to drown, even a new born baby girl - is this your christianity? Is it for this cruelty that you bash your bible?

4. If those regimes are still so terrible why did we drag a family of Afghans out of their beds at night and send them back to the wrong country without documents knowing they would be deported and could be killed? How about the 32 unaccompanied Afghan children we sent home not knowing if they had family left?

5. If Iraq was so terrible why did we sent refugees back into the warzone in 2003?

Come on mr christian, bible basher Boaz - what on earth did Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq ever bloody do to us?

And that is not a rhetorical question - I demand an answer.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Saturday, 1 July 2006 1:23:25 PM
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Marilyn Shepherd,

Are you for real?? LOL

I think you are mistaking BOAZ_David Bible Bashing Department for Ruddock_Vanstone Department of Dislocation and Incarceration...

What has Christianity to do with emigration politics anyway?

Has it ever occur to you that some of the migrants could be Moslem militants sneaking through the system to enter their new Allah’ promised land?

I am not saying all were bad apples – but if one is found wanting shouldn’t we quarantine the whole boat? Surely you must put a tiny little blame on their compatriots for these confusions.

I too struggle with the inefficiencies of our incompetent government officials. But in all fairness this Islamists terrorism is something they haven’t bargained for when they enlisted on the million dollar a year political career.

If you could do a better job you better take advantage of our free democratic system before we become a theocracy of sort… otherwise use your vote wisely.

Cheers and thanks for the laugh.
Posted by coach, Saturday, 1 July 2006 1:57:37 PM
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coach, your simplistic view of Islamic politics is laughable.

9/11 was launched by Wahabis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabi), a Sunni sect very powerful in Saudi Arabia.

The Wahabi loathe the Shi'ites who run Iran. Think they are scum. The Shi'ite minority in Saudi Arabia are treated like dirt.

Saying they are working together is as silly as saying the IRA and the Unionist militias in Belfast are Christian allies.

The Shi'ites in Iran weren't totally unhappy when the USA got rid of the Sunni fascist Sadaam, either.

There seem to be plenty of Iranians challenging the priest-dictators already - see http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/

And for everybody who thinks the USA can't tolerate a south-west Asian Muslim country having nuclear weapons...ever heard of Pakistan? Even before 9/11, all the USA did was slap a few minor sanctions on.

Iran will develop nuclear weapons, they will _not_ use them against Israel, and the USA will accept that because it has no choice. The USA could not successfully attack Iran, and they know it.

Especially if this guess (by someone else) is correct, and the USA really has Saudi Arabia - home of the people who inspired 9/11 - in its sights instead - see http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/355519597011
Posted by David Jackmanson, Saturday, 1 July 2006 4:14:05 PM
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Good answer Coach. But it doesnt go far enough.

I suggest Ms Marilyn Shepherd do some more home work.

She would do well just to read the piece by John Stone to the Quadrant Mtg in Fridays Australian.Whether you are enamoured with the auther or not is irrelevent, what he has to say is a synposis of the main issue.

Perhaps then she would like to go on and read some books by say, Bat Ye'or, Robert Spencer or Ibn Warriq, then you might perceive that we might just have a problem here, and a serious one.
Posted by bigmal, Saturday, 1 July 2006 4:16:56 PM
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Philo - <The only society that can survive is one who allows freedom for every individual political / philosophical / religious views; and accepts others right to hold them>

Very idealistic – the society you describe would only work if all members were willing to abide by those precepts - what happens when one group decides that its own philosophy and beliefs should reign supreme and has no compunction about using violence to obtain its desires?

Jinx - <Since Dee and Alan know so much about the truth ..>

The ‘truth’ about what?

<maybe they could fill the world in on some questions that no other neocon has been able to explain:>

I didn’t mention 9/11 in my post, so perhaps you should direct your questions to those who did. And I am not a ‘neocon’ whatever that may be.
Posted by dee, Saturday, 1 July 2006 5:26:12 PM
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Boaz,

Have actually watched that footage that you linked to in your last post?

Now seriously, all conspiracy theories aside, that footage proves nothing. I am not suggesting a CIA conspiracy or anything of the sort because frankly, i'm confused about the whole matter, theres a lot of internet wackos out there, but i'm certain of one thing, there is no 150 foot long boeing 757 in that video. I must of watched it a hundred times and I just don't see it.

Seriously mate, put aside all your preconceptions for 5 seconds and watch that video objectively, if you can see a plane, well you've got better vision than me.
Posted by Carl, Saturday, 1 July 2006 10:15:13 PM
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Dee,
What is the weapon for opposing thoughts and ideas? You well know the phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword!" The only way to overthrow the lust for power and those that wish to inforce a particular thought / view on all society is by counter researched sound thinking presented passively and caringly. The emotion of power must be defused and the principle of cooperation in community must be realised as the prime principle of a democratic society, otherwise it is war.

Our Parliaments should be a stable place [sometimes questionable] where sound well reasoned debate ought to take place. Politicians whose emotions outweigh their reasons must be calmed otherwise anarchy will emerge as others enter the emotional fray. War is fueled by passion, lust and emotion; so to curb that emotion for reasoned argument is the key to peaceful coexistence. Christians have a saying in viewing opponents, "He is not the enemy he is a victim of the enemy." This means his ideas are opposing mine, but he is to be valued as a person.

The base natural behaviour of man is to destroy what we view as the enemy, and we witness this demonstration within Totalitarian politics. The principle Christ demonstrated is to forgive and love your enemy; demonstrated by him in prayer when they nailed him on the cross, "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." The principle Christ taught was that faith / belief was the sovereign domain of the individual and could not be enforced or violated of the individuals conscience.

How we view what is true will be coloured by our view of reality. i.e. "Did the British invade Australia? Did the British settle Australia?" I do not wish to discuss this subject but how we view it might determine what we believe as true about our heritage. To hold one position firmly over another, then those holding the opposite position we view as lies. To accuse of lieing most often is an emotional unsound argument to gain advantage and discredit another.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 2 July 2006 8:04:02 AM
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Hi Carl
yes I did see the video enough to realize that it is indeed difficult to identify the type of plane, agreed. But I did see a plane.

Second, did you note that the 'video' is in fact time lapse.. taking frames each .25 of a second or so. The car moves in jumps. So, the speed of the plane would make it most difficult to capture any really clear image, and I suspect that we experience optical distortion also.

Passenger manifest ? - err you have an explanation for all those now 'secretly hidden in the conspiracy protection program' ? :) all 58 of them plus the crew ?

You are right about many internet whackos out there. I think we need to see the incident in context of the big picture. We all saw the airliners crash into the WTC, the speculation surrounding this, and flight 77 simply confirm to me that 'There are none so blind as those who 'will' not see' as Jesus said.

Think about it mate... such a HUGE plan could never be entertained by even half reasonable men having an idea that soooooo many aspects could all be covered up etc...

I return to my challenge 'Alternative' ? "Every" government elected democratically in the Philippines is elected on the grounds of "The incumbants are grossly corrupt"...now think about that for a moment :)
'every'......

Could you please postulate a viable alternative than Bush and co which will NOT include simply the other side of the 'spin' or 'vested interest' coin, and will not involve people who want power for the sake of it....
Is there some ideology or master plan or political force you can point me to ?

....waits :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 2 July 2006 8:51:41 AM
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It is best to ignore any posting by Marilyn Sheperd, simply because she is wacky and obsesed. Even though her issues have been totally demolished she keeps on with the same spin.

By all means have a laugh but don't waste the time and energy replying.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:29:23 AM
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Banjo

Thank you for your stimulating input on this topic. Deriding another is no substitute for vigourous debate.
Posted by Steve Madden, Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:51:18 AM
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Steve Madden. Good luck, engage. Many others have tried and failed on this and other blogs.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 2 July 2006 12:22:14 PM
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Mr Boaz,

You make a good point when you say that all in power (or fighting for it) are corrupt and that there is no squeaky clean alternative (but Jesus). And for what it’s worth, I have always understood that that is the main reason for your Bible quotes (I suspect most others on this Forum don’t).

But the bone I have to pick with Bush and Co. isn’t about the 9/11 conspiracies or simply that the Republicans are a Rightwing party. Fundamentally, my issue with the Bush Administration is that fact that they messed with the heart of democracy: The electoral system.

This is NOT something that is disputed in the US nor is it conjured by 'spin' or 'vested interest'. You can read about it at the following links…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore#The_decision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election_controversy%2C_2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_election#Controversy_in_Florida

These three links alone provide 37 pages of full detail about the manipulation, rigging and blatant constitutional breaches over the last two presidential elections, about 5 of these pages are filled with links and references, most of which point to highly credible sources.

Now, occasionally, there have been some questionable circumstances in past elections throughout US history, but most were only claims and most of those claims were never proven - unlike now.

This (along with the unprecedented amount of constitutional breaches by the current Administration) makes your scenario above in regards to the Democrats gaining power (which mind you, are sensationalised and exaggerated) look rather petty. All this being said, I would prefer the Democrats over the Republicans any day.
Posted by Mr Man, Sunday, 2 July 2006 1:23:43 PM
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Alan Grey,

LOL to you too.

” Regime change in Iraq was planned by Clinton's Administration, why wait for early 2001.”

- Err…Yeah…I already knew that. It wasn’t worth pointing out because…

1. Clinton is gone and never actually carried through with it.

2. The main topic here is about the lies of current governments, not former governments.

”Those weapons were degraded, not useless. Less effective but still capable of great damage.”

- Hardly the full-blown WMD program they apparently had.

”You opposition to the war wasn't based on whether or not saddam had such weapons…”

- How do you know that?

My opposition to the war IS partly that, but also that fact that it was started to help make some of the world’s largest multi-national corporations even richer than they already are. Now soldiers who signed-up to defend their country are being sacrificed for the pursuit for profits.

”…but you want to continue to your fantasy world in order to try and label those like Bush and Howard as liars.”

- Fantasy world? Then prove me wrong on any of my claims! My arguments are backed with proof consisting of at least circumstantial evidence; yours are mostly backed with bias.

Considering you are incapable of seeing both sides of the coin, I’d argue that YOU are the one living in a fantasy world.

”Your problem Mr Man is that you can't see past your own huge prejudices.

- You’re hardly one to talk.

”Every move that pushes a country away from the socialist left is somehow a move towards totalitarianism to you. What a joke.”

- LOL! I didn’t even imply that you fool!

If you read that post again, you’ll see that what I said is that extreme Rightwingism will ALSO lead to totalitarianism…

”…extreme Rightwing governments would have the exact same result.” The operative words there being “same result”.

But just to make you happy… Extreme Leftwingism = Communism = Totalitarianism.

Happy?
Posted by Mr Man, Sunday, 2 July 2006 1:24:21 PM
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I still do not have a rational case for what Iraq ever did to us to deserve us persecuting, starving, locking up and bombing them over the past 15 years.

It is all very well to dismiss me as wacky as a way to avoid my questions but I have Iraqi friends who came here escaping Saddam Hussein who were then locked up in places worse than Guantanamo Bay for the "crime" of being refugees who ask me what did it have to do with us. Why did we bomb Iraqi people, why did AWB steal from them while the children died of hunger and so on.

Saddam was not Iraq just one component of Iraq who was being fed very well in deed by our own corrupted regime. Why did 27 million ordinary Iraqi people have to be tormented because of the one person put into power with the assistance of the US?

I asked several of them how many Sunni muslim supporters of Saddam there were and how they could be brought into the umbrella of a peaceful Iraq. They all told me that they would all have to be slaughtered because they would never be with the majority Shia's. That would be 4 million or so people who would have to be killed to bring "peace" to Iraq.

Go and talk to some Iraqis instead of simply deriding me because you don't like the truth.

Iraq and Iraqi people have never done one single thing to us but take a good look at what we have helped to do to them.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves falling for the lies and spin and bull from Bush and his lunatic pals.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Sunday, 2 July 2006 1:53:11 PM
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Philo – I agree with you, but how do we deal with those members of society who are of low intelligence or who refuse to listen to the voice of reason? What if they laugh at ‘sound thinking’? What if they regard all kindness as weakness to be exploited? Germany was regarded as one of the worlds most civilized nations until the advent of Nazism – German Jews counted themselves German first and Jewish second and could not bring themselves to believe that it would all change in a matter of years. The Nazis could never be reasoned with or out-debated, the only thing that could have defeated them was force. And it was superior force that defeated them in the end.

Hence the old adage ‘Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire’. Unfortunately, war is sometimes unavoidable. Surely even Jesus Christ would not have expected us to sit still and allow ourselves to be oppressed or slaughtered. ‘It is godly to fight the tyrant' is also a Biblical truth.

Re invasion of Australia – from the aboriginal point of view, it was certainly an invasion (if a somewhat fractured one) and resulted in the eventual destruction of their way of life. From the British point of view, here was a large unpopulated continent ripe for civilization. They regarded nomadic hunter-gatherers as being almost as low on the evolution scale as animals, although Cook himself was a humane man, well ahead of his time. An ‘invasion’? Hmm. Not quite, according to our definition. A classic ‘invasion’ would be defined as maybe the German invasion of Poland (an attack by enemy soldiers in full force) – but I’m sure the aboriginals did not split hairs on this point.

Its often possible for both points of view to be true and equally valid.
Posted by dee, Sunday, 2 July 2006 2:28:44 PM
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Comments as the following do not uphold a view of what is truth but are part of the emotional hatred that breeds misrepresentation in an endeavour to gain power over others.

"You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves falling for the lies and spin and bull from Bush and his lunatic pals."

In the accompanyment of a statement is the emotion by which it is put. Could such a person meet rationally in a room with opponents like John Howard and especially George Bush. Examine are these claims lies to those who support a position as held by JH and GB? Are they a statement of fact? This is the point! Opponents merely seeking power, use lies and misrepresentation to discredit an opponent. This is what war is fed on. When the anger cannot be contained it results in violence. What might be believed as true to one is lies to another.

Only reasoned unemotional debate will present facts with some clarity that might change a mind in the process. Hatred of persons is distinct from hatred of ideas; War is hatred of persons. A "just war" is one where action it taken to restrain an opponent who threaten with violence the cooperation of a good society. Our world today is a Global Village and we can travel anywhere in it in 24 hours, or send rockets anywhere in minutes.

If we are to coperate as friends we must employ the principles as expressed by Christ, "Forgive, feed, clothe and pray [wish the best] for our enemy" [an opponent]. More people die of violence each day than die in fields of war. Why? Because hatred of persons reigns. At least engagement in wars has some international codes of justice except for nations who are non signatories. [eg beheading unnarmed aid civillians because of their nationality].
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 2 July 2006 2:45:08 PM
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Marilyn

No one can answer your questions, because to do so would make them admit they were conned.

The USA has been at war with someone for at least the past 50 years, they need war, thier major corporations need war, thier economy needs war.

But we need the USA, if you include our claims on Antartica and our economic zone, Australia is one sixth of the world. How do we as 20 million Australians defend it?

Also how do we defend troops raping and killing Iraqis?
Posted by Steve Madden, Sunday, 2 July 2006 3:30:53 PM
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Further to coming across the unravelled thread, courtesy of Irfan Yusuf's canvassed topic, pertaining to macabre lies onslaught by the devious Zionists (veiled under revolving aliases cast on internet forums), I am compelled to comment as to the tip of an iceberg reflected a common denominator of the Jew dilemma. Concerning the utmost controversial issue in question on the planet of earth. Tough sought resolution of (for the humanity sake), to remain insurmountable without resolving the principal lingo essence as what kind of JEWS, we were talking about?

When deeper analysis of a macabre dilemma inspires to quote the principle, which is quite true in itself, that in the big lie there is always some sleazy force of machiavellian credibility. Naive populous has often fallen for, because gullible masses are always more easily swayed and corrupted in a deeper strata of their emotional nature (than consciously or voluntarily). Where in a primitive simplicity of their idle minds, they more readily fall victims to the big lies (than little fibs). As they themselves often tell small handy lies in little benefit matters but would be held back to resort to a large-scale falsehoods. Hence would never come into their dopey heads the realisation that the 'almighty chosen' supremacists fabricated colossal untruths.

No wonder sheepishly desensitised minds couldn't ever grasp consequently that ZOG run global establishments, courtesy of a cuckoo-nest incubated rulers as much as religiously cultivated preachers, could have had such a bloody chutzpah to distort truths so incredibly. When even clear-cut facts exposing heinous fraud perpetuation by Johnny Howard, Thick Bush and Teflon Tony to be brought clearly to the dill flock's attention, amazingly the careless sucker heads still to doubt, waver and continue to think that there may be some other explanation.
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 2 July 2006 3:39:10 PM
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Because so grossly impudent lie leaves always its smeared trace behind it (even after it has been nailed down already). This is the fact, which was known extremely well to Jewanderthal expert liars in this world. Who conspired together worldwide in their supremacist art of the impeccable lying. Perpetrated as a matter of fact throughout the millenniums, courtesy of devious charlatans ingenuity knack. Who knew only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes, then never ever to admit any wrong.

Synonymous with the racist ashke-Nazim, who have known better than any others on earth, how falsehood and calumny can be exploited. Isn't their very existence, was founded on one GREAT LIE? Namely that JEWS are a religious interbreed. When in reality, JEWS are a RACE. And what a unique race, preset since time immemorial to deal with any alternative ideologies notion (ever to rise from the grass roots of conscientious souls). Perpetually filling even the vacuum cells via adhered supremacist rule motto: "SHOULD ANYONE BE EVER ABSENT FROM US ... HE WILL BE THEN AGAINST US"!

Thus having aristocratic Jew echelon masters throughout the millenniums firmly to place their bets each way ... they always to score their steadfast incubated winners worldwide. Impersonating an exclusive tyrant entity breed of the limitless significance. Assuring thus global apartheid via fait accompli elimination regimes. Starting right from a kindergarten via compulsory schooling and cultivated universities buffers, which to yield an ample of disposable puppets.

Accompanied over the years with connived referees issued clandestine dossiers as norm. No wonder the imbeciles lot to be nurtured with a carte blanche, whilst incorruptible souls of the genuine mortals to endure devious wrath. Still, so many of ill informed minds failed even to realise what hit them indeed. Without expecting in the wildest dream to face such a nightmare of the utterly insidious act to be unleashed on us.
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 2 July 2006 3:39:48 PM
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"O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it."

Mark Twain, The War Prayer

The article doesn't take sides to illustrate how lies give life-support to war, yet so many postings here miss the point & quibble about who-did-what when & why in a never-ending spiral of polemics.

Someone once said "war is politics by another means" or some such. So much wishful thinking. War represents the failure of politics and the rise of nihilism, AND DON'T THE FANS LOVE IT!

The Vietnam war ended largely due to the belated change of public support once reality hit the TV and made the lies obvious. I'd be rapt to see footage of both Iraqi & American atrocities during prime-time; that would presage the end of public support, the only thing which allows a democratic government to kill legally.

Leo - English please! Your last post resembles a random word generator.
Posted by bennie, Sunday, 2 July 2006 4:18:43 PM
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Dear Marilyn

no need to 'demand' an answer, simply ask, and I'll do my best to accomodate. Sorry for not responding in my last post, only noticed ur question now.

Coach pointed out part of the answer, you appear to be confusing 'Christian' with 'Government'. Our policies are not based on 'Christianity' though our values as a whole do owe much to our Judao Christian heritage.

Now, as to "what did Afghanistan etc 'do to us'". That question pre-supposes we are trying to 'punish' them. I don't see that, I see liberation, with some vested interest mixed in. Thats the best you can ever expect, as it is a universal feature of international intervention since Adam was a lad.

Ridding the country of Sadaam has shown just how brutal he was, by the evil and unconcienable actions of the Sunni's who are not fighting a 'nationalistic' war, they are fighting a 'selfish loss of privileged position' war. Iraq comprises of Kurds, Shia Arabs and minority_Sunni Arabs. (The Sunni's persecuted and massacred the others, so clearly on the basis of compassion and reason, to remove Sadaam and the Sunnite power was a good thing.

Creative publishing licence with reasons which were designed to sway public opinion and get them behind the war are regrettable. The war of liberation itself is not. (humanly speaking)

The Romans, Alexdanda the Great, Cyrus the Persian, all created a peace after their conquests. The British Empire gave the world a language universal. Even the Chinese are learning it as fast as they can.

When people come here Marilyn, it must be understood that they come on our terms, not theirs, nor the UN's.

Shelter, Safety, Food and Medical is all they can expect. They get this -its called compassion.

Also, as to 'why' Dimia and their flunkies raid people at night, has it occurred to you that groups like yours create such an atmosphere ? *think* :)
If there was not so much opposition to our policies being carried out, perhaps things would be more peaceful.
Honestly, you are toooo close to all this. Think macro.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 2 July 2006 5:50:25 PM
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Leo, I think you need to add less acid to your Kool-Aid (or possibly more).

BOAZ_David, you might think that the Iraqi "war of liberation itself is not [regrettable]. (humanly speaking)", but don't expect me to agree with you. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't state it as a fact.

Australia was led into this war on false pretences and we're now mired in a conflict which shows no sign of a happy ending. I don't believe the world is a safer place because of this war and no amount of propaganda will change that.
Posted by Johnj, Sunday, 2 July 2006 6:48:37 PM
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Right Mr bible basher. We should shut up and let the government torture and torment people in their rotten immigration prisons?

Get stuffed. Actually refugees have the right to come to Australia without our permission first and claim protection under the refugee convention. We don't make people refugees they are refugees when they are forced outside of their countries and have to keep moving.

Go and read the reality some time and stop passing yourself off as a good christian boy if you want to support illegal invasions, rape and murder of civilians, the use of napalm, cluster bombs, daisy cutters, depleted uranium and other atrocities on innocent people.

Then support locking up those who escaped Saddam while the AWB was paying him to stay alive.

Give me some rational responses and not this drivel.

The invasion was illegal and is an absolute disaster for people who did us no harm, not ever.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Sunday, 2 July 2006 8:11:21 PM
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You think we look pretty good together. You think my shoes are made of leather. But I'm a substitute for another guy. I look pretty tall but my heels are high. The simple things you see are all complicated. I look pretty young, but I'm just back-dated, yeah. Indeed.

I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth. The north side of my town faced east, and the east was facing south. And now you dare to look me in the eye. Those crocodile tears are what you cry. It's a genuine problem, you won't try. To work it out at all you just pass it by, pass it by.

Substitute me for him. Substitute my coke for gin. Substitute you for my mum. At least I'll get my washing done.

How many miles must we march?

By order of the prophet, we ban that boogie sound. You just degenerate the faithful with that crazy casbah sound.

The king called up his jet fighters. He said you better earn your pay. Drop your bombs between the minarets - down the casbah way.

Pervez Musharraf don't like it. Rockin' the casbah. He thinks it's not kosher. And you know? He really, really hates it.

Your life is like a schedule ...
Posted by Savage Pencil, Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:44:54 PM
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Marilyn

BOAZ_David will not provide rational responses because as a Christian he believes in the irrational.

The propaganda he believes is essentially the same as propaganda that is always used to justify the privileged economic position of the minority – it is not based on fact or truth. Centuries ago the privileged position being protected was that of the clergy and the divine right of kings. Now it is the financial elite.

The rise of fundamentalist right wing religion in politics (Christian or other) is an expression of the crisis of the current economic and political order. The privileged few are forced to rely on, appeal to, promote and provoke the most backward irrational sentiments (including religion, racism, xenophobia) in order to divide the population, cover up and prop up the crumbling economic system.

I’m not suggesting BOAZ_David is one of the privileged few, he just believes their propaganda. Propaganda about God and the second coming of Christ is just as credible as me telling you there are fairies at the bottom of my garden. If you believe it then you can believe anything whether it is based on fact or not.

I doubt there is any point engaging with him because in the end he will just resort to fairytales.
Posted by tao, Monday, 3 July 2006 12:11:55 AM
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"Liberation" of Iraq?

How do you liberate a country from itself?

I suppose before the Allies liberated France from the Germans in WW2, the Germans first had to pre-liberate France from the French.

I thought the purpose of the war was "we don't want to get rid of Saddam, we just want to disarm him".

If the US claims it can read the time on Saddam's watch via satellite and send a missile down his chimney, why couldn't it confirm the existence of WMD before launching this phoney war?

Iraq wasn't attacked because it was a threat, it was attacked because it was weak. Saddam had a "beware of the dog" sign out to scare his neighbours but didn't have the dog to back it up.

War isn't a different form of politics - it is simply a failure of diplomacy.

The whole miserable saga, as well as the events surrounding the 911 "incident", is beginning to unravel.
Posted by rache, Monday, 3 July 2006 2:20:32 AM
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Dear Marilyn
can you please explain how providing:

Shelter
Safety
Food_Medicine
Educational opportunities.

...in detention centres where people who’s assylum claims are as yet indeterminate, is ‘torment’ or torture ? Strange how you define these words.

You see, I observe that most of the ‘torment’ is caused by the pressure groups and refugee advocates who clog up the system with challenges to the determination made by the legal authorities of Australia, and in turn cause long drawn out periods of detention.

Even the Baktiaries criticized the ‘lawyers’.

As I said, ur too close, to the point of obsession which clouds your vision.

Rache

You ‘liberate’ the majority of a population (Shia/Kurd) from an oppressive, brutal, merciless, mass murdering Saddam,just as we liberated France and Germany from Hitler.
Were the Shia and Kurds not liberated ? (its ‘yes’ or ‘no’ )

‘Irrational’ is when one looks at a small group who use firepower,Torture and brutality to force their privileged will on the rest and calls this a ‘nation’. I’m sorry, you are clearly incorrect here. (this is where you tell me “the USA ‘put’ him there” but analysis show this is incorrect. They did ‘support’ him during the Iran/Iraq war, -quite a different thing.)

Just remember, if you were in Iraq during Sadaams time, YOU might have been the next female who Uday chose to randomly rape and turn into a sex toy. (though I believe he liked 14 yr olds more )

My faith is not the determining factor in saying all this, its plain common sense.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with invading for the purpose of liberating, as long as it is not based on the theft of natural resources, or the establishment of an economic imperialism which excludes the locals. Sadly, I don’t know of such a thing actually happening.

TAO, I_live_in_a_shed :) 7mx 9m with_my_wife_and_3_kids

CHALLENGE.
can any of you who are ripping into my position, provide a viable ALTERNATIVE which is based on a sound ideology, a political system, which has not proven to be flawed due to human nature ? UN ? rofl.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 3 July 2006 9:14:10 AM
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Bosk is basing his defence on FACTS – let’s examine his logic

1. People are born homosexual or heterosexual.
2. Child molesters on the other hand are the product of child molesters in their past.
3. Conclusion: Anyone CANNOT TRUTHFULLY claim that they were born that way.
4. Only those for whom there is evidence which supports it.

SO Bosk and co.,

Is it possible that a child molester be also a same-sex enthusiast?

In your "book of life", how was the first child molester originated?

Is there a possibility that a child brought up in a gay environment could also become one as a matter of “accepted” choice and not simply based on genetics (as you put it)?

If there is a soupçon – even a vague link between molestation and same-sex; why should society trust same-sex existence while despising child molesters?

[i.e. No one wants to live next to a child molester – why should we live next to homos?]

As for biblical references they are aplenty - starting with Genesis 2:

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
20 … But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

And for the evolutionists - Where does homosexuality fit with your theory of survival of the fitest or even natural selection intra-species sexual attraction?
Posted by coach, Monday, 3 July 2006 11:16:11 AM
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Marilyn Shepherd - <They all told me that they would all have to be slaughtered because they would never be with the majority Shia's>

Interesting to note that you don’t appear to find anything wrong with this statement. So lets change the scenario - if a white Australian commented that ‘all aboriginals will have to be slaughtered to bring peace to Australia’, what would you say? From reading your posts, I think you would be completely outraged, then you would go on to use the comment as ‘evidence’ that all white Australians are hopeless barbarians and would-be murderers.

So why are you accepting such an outrageous and barbaric statement from Iraqis? Not one Iraqi, but several. Would you accept it if an American had said it?

Your unquestioning acceptance of such a statement – solely because it was made by your Iraqi friends - demonstrates a bit of hypocrisy and special pleading, wouldn’t you say?

<Leo - English please! Your last post resembles a random word generator.>

Who needs English? Rabid anti-Semites get their point across even with a word generator. Those JewNazis sure are busy ruling the world - but wouldnt you think Israel would get a better press, seeing that Jews control the media? And the staggering number of Jewish scientists on the Nobel list - guess thats all a ploy. They PRETEND to invent benefits to mankind, but all the time ..

Rache - <Iraq wasn't attacked because it was a threat, it was attacked because it was weak.>

The US needed a foothold in the ME in order to place its troops close to Iran and Saudi Arabia (and perhaps to protect Israel) - and maybe simply to throw a rock in the pond and change the variables of the region. Saddam was fool enough to give them an opening by thumbing his nose at the UN for 12 years and talking big about chemical warfare. I believe there were WMDs (what was used on the Kurds?) but many were inoperable or sent into Syria before the invasion. Thats my take, anyhow, could be wrong.
Posted by dee, Monday, 3 July 2006 12:23:34 PM
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BOAZ /dee,

The US (and the UK) definitely DID help put Saddam in power and the CIA even provided 600 names to add to the infamous death list that was implemented after his rise to power.

Yes, the West typically stood back and watched in horror while the Kurds were being killed.

Turkey was also trying to prevent a Kurdish uprising along their own border with Iraq. The USA later helped facilitate the killing of thousands of Iraqi Kurds by Turkey in the no-fly zone they implemented and enforced after the first war.

The previous Bush administration even helped keep Saddam in power when it became apparent that their preferred military coup option was not going to happen. They actively prevented the popular uprising that started after Desert Storm by helping the Republican Guard cut the rebels off from access to weapons.

We all knew about all the ongoing atrocities for years yet the USA chose to do nothing until it suited their own purposes so the claim that this war was a humanitarian action is somewhat feeble.

The WDM fiasco, like the mythical human-shredding machine and other preliminary lies, was just a vehicle to get troops into the country and consolidate an ongoing permanent military presence in the region. As late as February 2001, Colin Powell was still claiming that Saddam had no serious WDM capability. Rumsfeld was also actively a Saddam supporter (remember the infamous handshake video from 1998?)

For a more definitive explanation of the true motives behind this affair – as well as other events that are now unfolding - check information related to PNAC (“Project for the New American Century”) on the net.

This action was taken to prevent threats specifically to American Interests and it is not the grand humanitarian effort they like to portray.

Anyway, who is using “firepower, torture and brutality” now?
Posted by rache, Monday, 3 July 2006 12:32:36 PM
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Rache - we agree on some points, such as US inaction on the Kurds. One question:

You dont mention Saddam’s collusion with UN member countries such as France and Germany. The reports of millions of dollars paid to UN reps in money-for-oil scandals ensured that the UN would remain the same corrupt to the core organization whose workers trade food for sex in starving countries:

‘ .. the mounting evidence of scandal that has been uncovered in the U.N. Oil For Food program suggests that there was never a serious possibility of getting Security Council support for military action because influential people in Russia and France were getting paid off by Saddam’.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040321-101405-2593r.htm

‘A South Korean acting as a go-between with Boutros Boutros Ghali, the UN Secretary-General at the time, asked for $10 million from Iraq to “take care of some people” before the creation of the UN Oil-for-Food programme, a court in New York has been told.

Iraq set aside $15 million for the alleged bribery scheme and sent $3 million in cash to New York in the year that the UN’s largest humanitarian programme was set up, the court was told.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2251219,00.html

The UN bleets continually that world-policing should be left to them - God help any country relying on the ethics of this bunch.
Posted by dee, Monday, 3 July 2006 3:02:43 PM
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Dee you forgot a teensy little thing in your rant about the UN oil for food program being rorted didn't you. Just a tiny matter of our own AWB being the biggest thieves of all to the tune of $300 million. It is a wee bit impossible to hold a high moral ground in this case.

If you read Richard Baker's work in the AGE today you will note that Downer was out protecting the corrupted wheat trade 4 days after the invasion and warning off the US.

2 days after the invasion a beautiful young Australian journalist was blown to bits in the north of Iraq by the first ever car bomb in Iraq and Downer said virtually that his death was his own fault, he shouldn't have been there.

Contrast that to Kovco who shot himself in the head playing the fool who was given a full honours funeral with PM and co attending.

100,000 or so Iraqi men, women and children are dead on the backs of these lies by Bush, Blair and co and our government has not once said a word about them. Not one word of grief when the US soldiers stalk a young Iraqi mum for a week, rape her and then burn her body and murder three of her family.

Not a word about the massacre at Haditha, the murder of a crippled man and countless hundreds of other cold-blooded murders by US soldiers. Not a word because the ADF then copy them and shoot down the trade ministers guards in cold blood.

Come on someone, anyone, condone this filth and then tell me why not one member of our government mourns the death of Paul Moran or the Iraqis.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Monday, 3 July 2006 3:13:50 PM
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Dee, Are you saying that Saddam Hussein sent his WMD to SYRIA do you have any idea about Middle East recent history? A little enlightenment for you... Syria and Iraq were both ruled by the same philosophy as dictated by the secular Baath Party. Both countries and their leaders Hafez Al Assad and Saddam Hussein looked to influence and lead the Arab world as both countries were central to the Arab world at different times in Middle East history. Syria more recently as a front line state against Israel. They also hated and distrusted each other with a passion. During the Iraq/Iran war Syria broke with most Arab countries and the USA in backing Iran. Gulf War I saw Syria support the USA in its liberation of Kuwait and subsequent invasion of Iraq. Saddam Hussein would not have transferred his American supplied WMD to Syria he would rather destroy them first which he did through the UN supplied weapon inspectors. Where on earth do you think WMD could come from considering the USA had choked off all their weapon supplies and were instrumental with the UK in enforcing UN backed sanctions the most draconian regime ever imposed on a sovereign state where even powdered milk was not permitted into the country?
Posted by drooge, Monday, 3 July 2006 3:19:08 PM
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All religions have lies, violence and death as their most prominent partner. Again we see the inept reasoning put forward by the un-evolved religious. The reactions to this thread compared to threads involving our real future and not some trumped up religious reason to destroy everything in sight, is such a refreshing thing to see.

Lies and wars are a product of religion failing to convince people of their veracity, so they resort to violence, which equates to damnation, ridiculous statements, attempts to instil fear, and finally war, nothing else matters to the monotheist.

Israel, holier than thou, yet no different to the christian Nazis or muslim braindead, as they currently commit genocide in Gaza. Wipe them out, because we want what they have, is the religious motto. Australia headed by right-wing christians sent our troops to Iraq so we could sell them wheat, not for any threat to us or the world. This action was fully supported by all christian politicians and churches, more lies perpetrated by the despotically failed violent illusionists.

Bd, your faith determines all you say as does coaches, thats why most of your statements are so irrational and lacking substance, other than daily fantasy. Are you blind yet.

When someone says to me, their filled with the love of god, I know I'm looking at a threat to the sanity and all thats good in the world.

Coach, "In your "book of life", how was the first child molester originated?"

God created everything in his infinite wisdom, didn't he. Considering the vast majority of misfits, determine themselves as religious, you have your answer. I also note how much god cared for the little girl destroyed in Perth, the murderer's a christian, typical. Where was your god for that little girl and her deeply religious family. You'll always find him supporting the despotic perpetrators throughout the world, but not supporting the victims.
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 3 July 2006 4:37:17 PM
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Sorry - above post obviously in wrong thread.

__________

DavidJackmanson,

>>coach, your simplistic view of Islamic politics is laughable.<<

Islamic sects have one thing in common : A Qur’an - actual words of Allah; their shared source of inspiration for their struggle to conquer the world for Allah and his prophet.

Islamic politics IS pathetically simplistic. For them the world is divided into two sectors

1. Dar el-Harb (house of war) - where Islam is a minority – therefore Jihad has to strive until Islam gains total political power. (Europe, Australia,…)

2. Dar el-Islam (house of Islam) - non-Moslems are a minority – therefore Islamic law is applied and “peace” reigns. (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, …)

Islamic sects are always at war BUT united in their Jihad against the rest of the world.

As for your prophetic statement:
>>Iran will develop nuclear weapons, they will _not_ use them against Israel, ...<<

And pigs will fly.

___________
tao,

>>Propaganda about God and the second coming of Christ is just as credible as me telling you there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.<<

Can you denounce Christ first coming too while you’re at it?

___________

What we should all learn is to see beyond the immediate and the observable. I agree that propaganda (lies) is a ploy to justify war.

My argument here is why would the US resort to such a tactic to attack Afghanistan and then Iraq (and now Iran)?

1. The existence of WMD was very questionable
2. Bin laden and Saddam could have been removed “peacefully”
3. The Oil trade sanctions were already squeezing Iraq to breaking point.
4. Most allies were against such attacks.

May I suggest that the main reason for Bush to have used his mighty powers was to settle an old score with Saddam (1991) to re-establish the US credibility by destabilising that eastern region which was gaining Islamic momentum post the USSR fall...(hence Bin Laden…)

The eminent threat to Israel’s existence by it’s Islamic neighbours is central to the current tensions.
Posted by coach, Monday, 3 July 2006 4:39:46 PM
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Diligent Marilyn,

Shouldn't come as a complete surprise the horrors of the massacred Afghanis (jammed in shipping containers) as much as a double-crossed Iraqis, longed for liberation from Saddam, but instead to score megaton shock-n-owe annihilation. Not mentioning an entire infrastructure obliteration, modelled on the contemporary Zionist junta's ordeal in Gaza. Inflicted on 'untermensch' Palestinians in reflection on our Jew lesser brethren sustained holocaust ravages. According to Zionist refined proficiency during the Third Reich.

Earlier Zionists even brought Nazi Baron Von Mildenstein of the SS to Palestine for a six-month visit in support of the Zionism. This visit led to a twelve part report in Der Angriff (The Assault), courtesy of Hitler's Minister of Propaganda Dr Joseph Goebbels, praising Zionism in 1934. As Jew Dr Goebbels ordered a medallion to be struck with the Nazi Swastika on one side, and the Zionist Star of David on the other.

A very significant gesture for predominantly exclusive Jew elite officers cadre within the Nazi hierarchy. Who outperformed each other towards the final solution, according to Zionist recipe of the brutal coercion against the obstinate (to their roots), Jew lesser brethren of Europe (whose youngsters were prime candidates for Palestine deportation). Otherwise tainted with revolutionary Marxism ambitions, regarded as anti-Zionist enemy for their assimilationist tendencies. Not that Zionists minded Marxist ideology to propagate Israeli kibbutz movements.

No wonder in May 1935, Nazi Chief of the SS Reinhardt Heydrich wrote an article in which he separated Jews into two categories. Certainly aristocratic Jews he favoured were supremacist Zionists. "Our good wishes together with our official goodwill go with them"... concluded Jew Heydrich. Extraordinary in Sept 1935, after the Nuremberg anti-Jew lesser brethren Race Laws were enacted, the only two flags that were permitted for display within the Nazi Reich were Hitler's favourite swastika and the Zionist blue-n-white banner.

Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspapers in the widespread propaganda. As supremacist Zionists and their cultivated Nazi proxies had a common interest in making assimilationist Jew lesser brethren of Europe to depart to Palestine.
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 3 July 2006 5:36:35 PM
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Mind you that in 1937, the Zionist Socialist Labor Militia (founded by Jabotinsky, Haganah) executive hierarchy, sent an agent Feivel Polkes to the fascist Berlin as a head hunter, offering to spy on Jew lesser brethren for the Nazi SS in exchange for moreover of Nazi resources release towards the Zionist colonisation of Palestine.

Last but not least the infamous Adolf Eichmann was also invited to Palestine as a guest of the Haganah. Whilst Feivel Polkes informed Eichmann: "Jewish Nationalist circles are were very pleased with the radical Nazi policy. Since the strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would be by far increased thereby. That in the foreseeable future Jews could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs".

Obviously these testimonies are certainly open to challenge on this forum! A propos heinous acts perpetration via diabolical Zionist collaboration with their Nazi proxies in reflection on the present day systematically conducted genocide of Afghani, Iraqi and Palestinian peoples (to name a few). One must wonder moreover if the holocaust spun tragedy wasn't in a way the consequence of the Zionist barter in human merchandise? When old, assimilationist and obstinate (to the roots) Jews of Europe burdened Zionist enterprise.

Weren't thus Germany for its tenacious, so awesome people to be chosen precisely for the bloodbath, with its sons as executioners? Destined to be ravaged, debilitated and demoralised for generations to come! Yet aren't currently right now in the 21st century being conditioned likewise so massively impenetrable the American people in turn? Are they destined to face the reality after the fact? Are we to revisit moreover of bloody calamities, just to suss it out? So uniquely typical kind of the hereditary endowed zionazi savagery!
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 3 July 2006 5:37:33 PM
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Mr Boaz asked:

“Can any of you who are ripping into my position, provide a viable ALTERNATIVE which is based on a sound ideology, a political system, which has not proven to be flawed due to human nature?”

Mr Boaz,

You KNOW there is no political system that is not flawed by human nature and you KNOW there is no alternative with sound ideology. But I believe that in my original response (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#46235) to your similar question above (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#46213), now re-worded (possibly due to my response), that I had at least pointed to the lesser of the two evils. When the Democrats pull such an undemocratic and unconstitutional stunt as that (along with the countless other stunts the Republicans have pulled over the last 6 years such as the Patriot Act), I will agree that there is no reasonable alternative. But until then, it’s anyone but Bush as far as I’m concerned.

What was the worst thing Clinton did? He had an affair with an intern and lied to America about it. The Republicans on the other hand, pulled 200 FBI agents from their jobs and blew $50 Million to investigate the situation. Why? Because APPARENTLY, they were so staunchly opposed to the fact that the President could so blatantly lie to the American people.

Well…I guess the shoe’s on the other foot now. Who knows, if those 200 FBI agents hadn’t been pulled away from investigating more important issue problems, maybe they could have done more to prevent 9/11…we’ll never know.

Hmmmm…Is the fact that Bush & Co. are Christians, the only reason you support them? I only ask because I know of a fanatical member of the Christian-Right who, whenever I point out the wrong-doings of the Bush Administration, says: “But they’re a Christian Government!” Whenever he’s cornered in a debate, he relies on that one line.
Posted by Mr Man, Monday, 3 July 2006 9:06:02 PM
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The signs of a liar are:
1.They misrepresent and degrade their opponents with emotive hostility.
2.They exaggerate facts with emotion they believe benifit their political position.

Both these examples indicate lies in the guise of argument.

Examples of this can be seen in the posts that express hatred of their opponent rather than a balanced argument they have a warlike mind and are more prone to lie; they fail to intelligently present their case. A balanced argument should draw some agreement even from an opponent. An emotive attack on the person will draw the same response and rouse level of threat, unless they are self controlled.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 3 July 2006 10:32:44 PM
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coach,

I am not disputing Christ as an historical figure, or even that he was a charismatic, wise and/or revolutionary figure. However I dispute the propaganda/lies that he was something other than human like you or me, and that he had a father called God. Stories of him being anything other than human are, as I have said, just as credible as me telling you there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.

Your theories on the reasons for the invasion and occupation of Iraq miss the main point entirely. The US ruling class invaded, and continues to occupy, Iraq (and Afghanistan) in order to control the oil and prop up their own economic interests.

They couldn’t care less about the “score” with Saddam. If he had been willing to remain “their bastard”, they wouldn’t have invaded in 1991 or 2003. They also couldn’t care less about their “credibility” unless the lack of it undermines their ability to pursue their economic interests. They also couldn’t care less about Israel – the only reason they appear to do so is because they see it as in their economic interest (at the moment).

They idea that they do anything for any other reason than economic reasons is ludicrous. The underlying motivation of capitalist “democracy” is making profits and accumulating wealth – anything else they feed us is just obfuscation. Or perhaps fairytales.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 12:19:17 AM
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Dear Mr Man
I appreciate your honesty regarding the 'alternative' situation.
There are others who would quite brazenly suggest that there IS an alternative, and they would point to it as a system in which we can have undying faith. I guess that those with the most 'vitriol' against me and others would be in that category, (not yourself).

There are two ways of looking at the huge and obscene expenditure used on the 'get Clinton' exercise.

1/ It was just an outright base grab for power. The Republicans sensed a glass jaw and went in for the king hit.

2/ The Republicans saw the potential for an irreversable change to the political/cultural fabric of the USA based on the Democracts reliance on and pandering to the Hispanic vote, including its more sympathetic treatment of illegal immigrants, and thus decided that they must 'act now, and at any cost' to prevent it.

I suspect it was a combination of both.

So, in spite of your considered view 'Anyone but Bush' I have to respectfully disagree, on the basis of the 2nd point above. I would LOVE to see less influence of economic lobbyists, and less pandering to Biggggg economic interests by the Republicans, remember, I have pointed out on many occasions their attempt to influence our PBS to evergreen pharmeceutical patents at OUR expense.

The equally ridiculous feature of the Republican party is its contradictory stance on illegals. So much 'bigggg' economic activity depends on their low wages, so they are caught between protecting their socio/political/cultural status quo,(kick em out, lock the border) and their 'keep costs down/capitalism' (bring em in, work em hard)

But back to Iraq. Same thing, vested interest competes with or is combined with altruistic endevour. Only history will show to what degree each drove the agenda :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 5:58:36 AM
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Dee,

It’s a sad fact that the UN (like every other major institution in the world) has been tainted by corruption.

However, it may not be a problem for much longer.

In one of the PNAC submissions (PNAC mentioned earlier) called “Rebuilding America’s Defences”, the current US policy is to denigrate and usurp the powers of the United Nations with an “overwhelmingly powerful force” ( with a “coalition of the willing”perhaps?).

It also implies that this is necessary because the role of the UN should go beyond peacekeeping in order to meet America’s needs, something it’s not willing to do.

Unfortunately it fails to mention what will become of the humanitarian role the UN performs and its work in areas outside of direct US interests.

Despite the obvious shortcomings of the UN, I would still prefer it to a period of unrestrained “Pax Americana” around the world.

BOAZ_David,

This article summarises what some of us feel about the role of secularism in Western politics.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0819-22.htm

Sadly, the concepts described are not unique to the USA but are part of our everyday life too.
Posted by rache, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 11:01:38 AM
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Marilyn Shepherd – <you forgot a teensy little thing>

I ‘forgot’ nothing – I don't hold any ‘high moral ground’- I’ll leave such posturing to you. I simply stated facts. The sins of the AWB do not cancel out or excuse worldwide UN corruption.

Your rant about US soldiers raping and murdering Iraqis (but 'not a word' about the 2 marines who had their eyes gouged out, their penises cut off and were then beheaded) may be true but is yet to be proven. Just like the ADF soldiers you accused of ‘murder'. You had them tried and convicted before any facts were released, typical of your one-sidedness and tunnel vision concerning your fellow Australians.

Re Paul Moran – according to the SBS report, ‘His funeral in Adelaide … was a major event. Condolences, political figures, friends, work mates and relatives arriving in the southern capital from all over the world.’

Drooge – <Are you saying that Saddam Hussein sent his WMD to SYRIA ..>

I think most WMDs were destroyed within Iraq but it wouldn’t surprise me if some had made their way over the border. Perhaps there was personal rivalry and hatred between the two despots, but according to this interview with a former staff member of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee:

‘[W]hat we saw prior to the [First Gulf] war was that Syria was the number one violator of U.N. sanctions against Iraq and the number one source of illegal foreign exchange to the Saddam Hussein government’

‘The American government also denounced Syria's refusal to adhere to UN oil sanctions on Iraq after the first Gulf War, during which time Syrian officials continued to do business with Saddam Hussein’.

‘Syria was an outspoken critic when American forces launched a second attack against Saddam Hussein in 2003 and American officials have repeatedly accused Syria of allowing anti-American insurgents to cross the border between the two states.’

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/syria/us.html

If anti-American insurgents could cross the border at will, why not a few WMDs? Hatred changes to friendship (or rather, alliance) in a moment in the ME.
Posted by dee, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 1:15:17 PM
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Dee,

Rep. Sam Johnson (R-Texas)did much to promote that Syria was the recipient of Iraq's WMD. Speaking at a veterans' celebration at Suncreek United Methodist Church in Allen, Texas on February 19, 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Johnson where he is quoted as saying "...Syria is the problem. Syria is where those weapons of mass destruction are, in my view. You know, I can fly an F-15, put two nukes on 'em and I'll make one pass. We wouldn't have to worry about Syria."

Sam Johnson was a Korean and Vietnam war veteran where he was a fighter pilot and was using his expertise on the subject. He didn't think very deeply of what such action would do to the USA's enfant terrible Israel or other countries in the Middle East.

He went on to explain his theory to President Bush and Rep. Kay Granger (R-Texas) at a White House meeting, the former not requiring much proof that Syria was indeed the recipient of Iraqi WMD. Johnson caught some considerable flack for his views and 11 days later retracted his comments in a newspaper interview claiming he was only joking!

It is a fact that no one, the CIA included, have found one shred of evidence to sustain the claim that Syria had anything whatsoever to do with Iraq's WMD. And though it is well documented that Republicans need for proof is non existant, most thinking people require it before jumping to conclusions. And USA media continue printing the Bush administration's suppositions as if it were fact.
Posted by drooge, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 2:57:04 PM
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Drooge – I don’t pretend to have a deep knowledge of ME politics, and had not heard of Sam Johnson. The fact that WMDs did exist is undeniable, the Clinton government also referred to them many times and regarded them as a danger, so I think its reasonable to wonder what happened to them.

<It is a fact that no one, the CIA included, have found one shred of evidence ..>

It seems that evidence abounds, but its all very contradictory. Iraq had stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons in the early 1990s. According to the Washington Times, the CIA's chief weapons inspector said he could not rule out the possibility that Iraqi WMDs were secretly shipped to Syria before the 2003 invasion, and he cited 'sufficiently credible' evidence that WMDs may have been moved there.

The more you try to sort out the WMD scenario, the murkier it seems to become. Various ‘experts’ have completely different opinions although a lot of faith seems to have been (mis?)placed in George Sada’s word. Beats me.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050427-121915-1667r.htm
Posted by dee, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 5:08:53 PM
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Dee, Saddam's WMD's were supplied by the USA and Russia to be used against Iran, they consisted mostly of biological gas and nothing else. If you look at the relevant UN resolutions and replies by Saddam's regime, you may find that after the 1990's invasion, they were destroyed in return for aid.

The link you provide is full of hypocrisies, you can't have a secular state with a controlling government who are devoutly religious. You can only have a secular state when its controlled by a non religious government, other than that, its a religiously controlled state. And the religious are not secular.

People always think of religion as being associated with a belief in a omnipotent power, but religion acquaints to anything living in repetitious fantasy and denial, of the reality of the present future. Economics is a failed religion because it requires sacrifice of self, to attain unequal benefits for others.

You only have to look at any personal, sociological, religious or national situation to see, lies are a very important part of those wishing to be in control. We have a government who invaded a country because we wanted to keep our wheat deal. There was no threat to our country, but when we sided with the US, we became a target.

Most countries think of Australians as reasonable people whop accept everyone. Its the religious fools people vote for that puts us in the gun sights of the idiots of the world.

“The signs of a liar are:
1.They misrepresent and degrade their opponents with emotive hostility.
2.They exaggerate facts with emotion they believe benefit their political position.

Both these examples indicate lies in the guise of argument.”

Philo, I look forward to the day when you may see your statement relates to your monotheistic beliefs. The word is not wrong, but the interpretation and application are the opposite to the word. Until, the interpretations and the books disappear, few will understand the meaning and application.
Posted by The alchemist, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 5:58:49 PM
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The alchemist,
Stop trynig to change the meaning of terms secular does not mean the absense of God. It means pertaining to the natural as contrasted to the spiritual. Governments ought not to be involved in determining our thoughts and beliefs, but they ought to be involved in providing services for living in society. The American constitution is a secular constitution as it does not interfere in freedom of thought and belief.

We well know your obsession with atheism and your attempt to control everyone by your belief as you espouse dihonesty to anything of faith. Your misrepresentation and exaggerations are a deliberate attempt to lead astray or degrade those of faith.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 10:38:30 PM
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Philo

I don’t necessarily agree with everything the alchemist writes, however I must point out that by accusing him/her of attempting to “control everyone by your belief” you are engaging in the same “misrepresentation and exaggerations” you seem to detest.

It is always interesting to see that religious believers feel that they have the right to freely espouse their doctrines and beliefs, virtually shoving it down the throats of us heathens. Yet when those of us who reject their preachings and encourage them and others to question the (what appears to us irrational) basis for such beliefs, vehemently or otherwise, we are accused of controlling others, leading the faithful astray, and degrading those of faith.

Has it ever occurred to those of you with faith that we the unfaithful would actually prefer to go about our daily lives without having to hear your claptrap? But no, we are forced to live in its fetid backwardness whether we like it or not. And when we speak out about it we are accused of doing something wrong.

You accuse the alchemist of being obsessed with atheism, however you don’t see that atheists consider people like you to be obsessed with religious myth.

I think you ought to be a bit more honest with yourself Philo before making accusations about someone else.

What was that story about the removing the tree trunk out of your own eye before criticizing the splinter in your brother’s?
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 12:03:10 AM
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That's the trouble with faith-based conflicts - the first thing that goes out the window is the faith.

Just as one group uses their religious beliefs to justify killing, another will ignore it's religious beliefs to do the same thing.

In the end, they are two sides of the same coin.

The only real difference between them is marketing.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 12:49:36 AM
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tao,

You are nearly there re: the historical Jesus. A lot of people would even dispute the fact he even existed. What separates you from believers [in his deity] is more research. Many anti Christ warriors before you ended up believing after examining the overwhelming facts available.

I agree to a degree that the US/ allies are all a dollar greedy bunch. However this is a religious/political campaign above your (and my) humble comprehension.

Islam my friend is a mighty enemy of all that the “west” stands for (freedom of speech, separation of church /state, democracy,…). Islam is at odds with the rest of us.

1991 was Saddam’s attempt at increasing his territory – hence power – by raping Kuwait.

Israel is pivotal to the whole ME conflict. Israel is quite capable of standing alone (militarily) against her enemies. So although your “US – Israel” economic theory exists, it is not their main interest. The nation of Israel is.

On the subject of “faith” I will not push anything down your throat – it is just amazing to us believers that visibly intelligent thinking human beings like yourself could not believe in a creator.

How can you explain that you and I are spinning at 500 meters a second on a merry-go-round yet everything around us seems perfectly stable? Or how can a few inert molecules decide to organise themselves to become the incredibly complex “human” form?

It takes more faith NOT to believe than to believe. Your non-faith is remarkable.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 10:31:12 AM
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<.. your fatwas against Muslims are just xenaphobia and prejudice>

<.. it isn't against the law to harbour hatred for others. I just hope you never act on that hatred>

<I think the rest of us .. should be thankful the vast majority of Australians (indeed, the vast majority of human beings) aren't as inspired by such venom and hatred>

<I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here ..>

<I reckon you really hate Muslims..>

The above comments (and more) were directed at me – by Irf and others – in response to my posts about extremist Muslims and the dangers of large scale Islamic immigration. I was accused of wishing to act on my so called ‘hatred’ (by donning my KKK uniform and monstering the local mosque, no doubt). I was accused of hating *all* Muslims, although I asked reasonable questions and gave many examples of hatred directed at Australians by local Muslims such as Keysar Trad and his wife.

So I find it odd that our resident Jew-hater Leo Braun has been seemingly given a free pass to spout his bile (except for Johnj’s kool-aid reference). If his comments had been directed at Muslims, the screams of indignation and accusations of anti- Islamic bigotry would be deafening.

So why no condemnation of Leo’s psychotic hatred of Jews? Even if the translator renders Leos language into nonsense, the underlying venom is loud and clear.

‘ Jewanderthals fed concoctions’

‘ Judeo ruling elite of the ancient Greece’

‘ zionazi ruled global establishments’

‘ Jew lesser brethren’

‘ diabolical Zionist collaboration with their Nazi proxies’

‘ common denominator of the Jew dilemma’

‘ Jewanderthal expert liars’

‘ zionazi savagery’

Leo – have you overdosed on The Protocols of Zion? Are you related to Eva?

Irf – what would be your response if these tirades had been directed at Muslims? Considering your response to my mild-by-comparison criticisms of Islam, I’m surprised you have not responded to Leo with similar outrage or at least questioned the wisdom of OLO moderators for allowing his comments, as you did with mine.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 1:52:57 PM
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Coach,

Funny you should talk about Islam being the enemy of freedom of speech, separation of church/state, democracy etc. A few centuries ago, Christians were the enemy of those things too. In fact it took wars and revolutions to loosen the grip of the clergy from our lives. Indeed, many Christians are presently the enemies of those concepts and would like to see a return to fundamentalist Christian precepts as law – perhaps you are one of them. Christianity is no different to Islam.

It is also amusing that you would attempt to make your point using knowledge about the physical universe that we have in spite of your religion. How do you know the earth spins at 500m/s or that we are made of atoms and molecules? – your religion certainly didn’t teach you that. If it were up to you Christians we would still believe the earth was the centre of the universe. Centuries ago, people were persecuted by Christians for daring to suggesting that it wasn’t.

Ironically, it was Islam which carried scientific and philosophical knowledge through the dim dark ages of medieval Christianity.

Whether or not I can explain the wondrous phenomena of the universe does not mean that your explanation (that there is a Creator) has any credibility. It is just as credible for me to say that it was created from the dust from my fairy’s wand. Why? Because my fairy told me so. And I have faith.

In fact your attempt to slip Intelligent Design into the debate (as your ilk are attempting to do in our children’s science classes) is just another example of your hocus pocus being forced down our throats.

tbc....
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 8:14:36 PM
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Dee, I was very tempted to ignore Leo's idiotic ramblings. They are so obviously deluded that it felt a little unkind to draw attention to them. I prefer to engage with arguments that have some substance. In some ways it is a compliment to a well-thought-out post if someone disagrees with it.

Prejudiced rubbish like this has no place in a decent forum. I suspect most other posters hoped that by ignoring it Leo would go away.
Posted by Johnj, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 9:46:15 PM
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Dear Rache
I had a look at the web site you provided the link for.
I also share your concerns about the UN and the USA's aspirations to 'run' the show.

On that point, sadly, the UN as I've often said, has always been in existence on the basis of the winners of the last world war, and the security council is that place where they have a Veto power if they feel their interests are threatened. No amount of 'conventions' on this or that will change it.

So, the description of America seeking more influence on the dismally flawed and corrupt UN is not surprising, nor is it any different from the underlying reality anyway. If we think the UN exists outside the frame of reference of 'power' and that its conventions have any more real clout than that of those willing to enforce them, we kind of delude ourselves.

On the Web site content. I noted it was written by a Pastor, who rightly stated that the 'Church' should speak for the 'marginalized and poor etc'. I'd need to know more about 'which' marginalized and poor he means. If he means sexual deviates and illegal immigrants as the marginalized, I have no sympathy at all with what he said.

If he is referring to the economic bullying by large corporations and multinationals, then he has my full and total support.

The old Testament prophets cried out primarily at a nation straying from God. When the nation and its nobility departed from the Holy God of Israel, they filled the land with cult prostitutes of both sexes and child sacrifice and injustice against he poor became common.

ECONOMIC RATIONALISM CONDEMNED
Isaiah 5
8 Woe to you who add house to house
and join field to field
till no space is left.

VALUE INVERSION CONDEMNED (exchanged truth about God for a lie)

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter

We need the prophetic voice more than ever today.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 10:42:03 PM
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tao,
Honesty is presented by fair and balanced statements. I trust that you will not find me stating that all the worlds problems are the result of atheism; I think I can be fair. If you read Alchemist attitudes toward people of faith, according to him they are the total cause of all the world problems, which is not the case.

His whole obsession is negative bile toward all people of faith. To be fair you will recognise I define behaviour as either following the life and example of Christ, compared to people who claim a religion of Christianity but live lives totally foreign to the nature of the teachings and life of Christ.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 11:14:50 PM
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Philo, again you show your ignorance. I'm not an atheist, nor am I against people of faith, just against the lies, deceptions and barbarity of monotheism. A secular state is one where religion has no say in state affairs, thats not the case here, the USA, Britain or anywhere monotheism holds sway. When you consider the huge difference between what secular schools get in funding to religious schools from the christian federal government, the free ride religion gets on the tax payers back and their constant meddling in peoples personal affairs, you can see why we aren't secular.

I understand your inability to see beyond your delusions and accept there are billions of people of faith who aren't monotheists. Your belief system is based on lies, flawed and falsely interpreted history.

You don't even know how your christ led his life, anything written about him only refers to two very short periods of time, other than that, you have no idea. There is more anecdotal and historical evidence showing he was just a person who had discovered some truth whilst travelling, just like any evolving being not stuck in the past..

Followers of your belief lie about everything to do with their lives, you refuse to accept the reality of your monotheistic controlled governments constantly waging war on all and sundry based on lies.

How can you say you have a good belief when the only ones benefiting are the churches, leaders and elite followers. You don't see poor churches, just poor followers, leaders of your belief are fully provided for luxuriously, whilst their followers are constantly drained to prop up a failed belief.

Get a grip Philo, you and your ilk just grasp at straws in your attempt to categorise people, whilst non believers, only have to see the world example, to categorise monotheism as a violent and destructive lie.
Posted by The alchemist, Thursday, 6 July 2006 7:54:26 AM
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"English please! Your last post resembles a random word generator"... Mocked in lyrics mode Bennie. "Who needs English? Rabid anti-Semites get their point across even with a word generator"... interjected grumpy Dee. "I think you need to add less acid to your Kool-Aid (or possibly more)"... insinuated further John with a J. What certainly calls for the standing ovation, resounding in the circumstances of the lower-class Jew-lesser brethren dared intrusion into elitist Jew milieu, frequented by noble patricians of the heart wrenching aristocratic Jew gestures.

Now having said that, a very interesting would be to glance at the superior Zionists mentality. To see how they react, like a savage pack of the rabid dogs, when they sense that their connived interests being challenged. What was unveiled precisely via imperative exposé a propos Jew peace activists to receive hatemail from furious Zionist zealots. Reported in Guardian by Brian Whitaker ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1126294,00.html

Portraying conscientious Jew activists incessantly faced harassment and intimidation via email and internet forums. Due to actively voiced opposition by Jew-lesser brethren versus racist Zionism and its brute onslaught against the humanity. Where for example Deborah Fink, a Jewish singer and music teacher (living in London) to receive all-of-a-sudden deluge of the hateful email (more than 150 in space of a week).

One came from New York's rabbi to inform her: "Your soul, my dear, is petrified and lost"... Another menacingly said: "Hitler killed the wrong Jews"... Still another ostensibly from a Jew doctor of medicine in the US, elaborated on a holocaust theme: "Too bad Hitler didn't get your family", it said. "With six million Jews dieing [sic] 60 years [sic] ago, it's a shame scum like you somehow managed to survive".

So what exactly had Ms Fink done to deserve such a vitriol? A short answer is that she was planning to sing, as Ms Fink is a member of the Just Peace UK. A mainly but not exclusively Jewish group, opposing Israeli junta occupation, while seeking a viable and sovereign Palestinian state. Alongside safe and secure Israeli colony, with Jerusalem as a shared capital.
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 6 July 2006 1:51:32 PM
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tao,

>>Christianity is no different to Islam.<<

If that is your total perception of religious dogmas I don’t think I should try to explain the differences to you.

It also seems that you’ve made up your mind about the creator of the universe and are instead more comfortable with the fairies theory. Good luck. Let us know when you’ll lose your first tooth and when you’re ready for grownup school…then we’ll talk.

_____________
Hey Alc.,

>>I'm not an atheist, nor am I against people of faith, just against the lies, deceptions and barbarity of monotheism.<<

Perhaps you should give us your version of theism instead of repeating the same useless pathetic attacks on anything remotely religious.

>>A secular state is one where religion has no say in state affairs, thats not the case here, the USA, Britain or anywhere monotheism holds sway.<<

Do you have any proof to that effect or is it just rant and more conspiracy hypotheses to reinforce your anti-religious opinion. Maybe there are more Christians in this secular world than you care to accept.

When asked what was the greatest hindrance to Christianity in India? Mahatma Ghandi replied: “Christians”.

You can blame Christians for anything and everything you like but that will not alter the facts and the truths. Like it or not.

___________

On subject – congratulations Irfan on your double century; (two articles with over 100 posts).

Perhaps what hurts more than telling lies is accepting the TRUTH.

I admire your determined effort to embellish Islam and blame the rest of the world for its predicament. Maybe one day someone will believe you.
Posted by coach, Thursday, 6 July 2006 2:48:04 PM
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Leo, if you want your posts taken seriously you need to avoid using loaded cliche-ridden stuff like "lower-class Jew-lesser brethren dared intrusion into elitist Jew milieu". I can only presume that by this you mean that OLO is a Jewish-run forum and your posts have been derided as part of a Jewish conspiracy. I'm sorry, but your posts have been derided because they're rubbish.

There is, believe it or not, a difference between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and anti-Semitism. I find far too much anti-Muslim sentiment in this forum, but I dislike misinformed prejudice of all colours. If you really need to express these opinions I suggest you might try here http://www.stormfront.org or possibly here http://www.radioislam.org/ .
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 6 July 2006 7:34:44 PM
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Philo, as I said, I don’t necessarily agree with everything the alchemist writes. No doubt he does sound harsh to you because he is criticizing what you believe in. And, he probably makes some unjustified statements.

The point I was making was that by saying that he is attempting to “control people with his beliefs” is an unfounded accusation. How could the alchemist control people by expressing his beliefs on this forum? Perhaps you are attempting to control people by expressing your beliefs.

You said “The signs of a liar are:
1.They misrepresent and degrade their opponents with emotive hostility.
2.They exaggerate facts with emotion they believe benefit their political position.

Both these examples indicate lies in the guise of argument.”

Then you said “Your misrepresentation and exaggerations are a deliberate attempt to lead astray or degrade those of faith”. Perhaps the alchemist really believes what he says, therefore he is not misrepresenting or exaggerating at all. You assume he is lying just because you don’t see the world his way.

Your use of the term “deliberate attempt to lead astray or degrade those of faith” implies that only those of faith are right and those who openly disagree are evildoers. This rests on assumptions inherent in your world view, which are not present in the world view of others, but which colour the way you interpret everything.

You are allowing your beliefs, prejudices and emotions into the debate.

As I said, you had better get that tree trunk out of your eye before you take issue with the speck in others’ eyes.

Comparing what you perceive is your Christlike existence with what I presume you consider hypocrites is not very Christian. Judge not, lest ye be judged etc.

And remember that Jesus said not to pray in public where everyone can see you, but go into your room where only God can see you.

In other words, stop preaching and judging on this forum and go to your room Philo!
Posted by tao, Thursday, 6 July 2006 10:36:11 PM
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Coach,

Good to see you recognise Christianity as a religious dogma. Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

I haven’t made up my mind about the creator of the universe because there isn’t one – or at least there is no evidence of one.

Can’t you see that my fairy theory was an illustration – and I don’t really believe it? Oh that’s right there is as much evidence for the fairy theory as there is for your theory – so you would think I was as serious about mine as you are about yours.

You wrote to the alchemist: “Do you have any proof to that effect or is it just rant and more conspiracy hypotheses to reinforce your anti-religious opinion.”

So I ask you “do you have any proof” of your theory or is it just rant and mumbo jumbo to reinforce your religious belief? I doubt you’ll be able to answer in the affirmative, so will not even try.

Now back to earlier comments which I ran out of space to deal with.

You claim that the ME conflicts are a religious/political campaign which is above our “humble” comprehension. Speak for yourself. Just because you believe God moves in mysterious ways which we mere humans have no hope of comprehending, is no reason to assume that others have the same comprehension problems caused by the fog of religion. I don’t pretend to know everything about it, but the ME conflict is a man made conflict with a man made solution.

Your religiousity colours your view of the world. You are so obsessed (as Philo would say) with your religious myth, that you can’t imagine there are any more important issues at stake than a religious war. Perhaps you can’t see for the tree trunk in your eye.

With regard to your un-Christian anti-Islam comments generally I say – let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Christianity doesn’t exactly have a spotless history.
Posted by tao, Friday, 7 July 2006 1:16:02 AM
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Thanks Tao, your assumptions are right regarding monotheists.

Coachy, My version of theism's the same as monotheism, did you miss that over the last hundred posts or so.

Governments controlled by the followers of god, are non secular states. Those enslaved in illusion see only illusion, anything else is beyond their comprehension. Would one explain the theory of fusion energy to a one day old child and expect them to understand. So why explain reality to those of infantile, fearful minds.

Look at the insane direction those in power are taking the world and what their beliefs are, thats reality. You'll find few politicians in this country not believing in god. Monotheism is at war within all its factions, its logical political monotheists would also be at war, as they're one and the same. They're waging war against the people, just as their religious brethren are doing around the world culturally. They feel they're superior and only they count, typical monotheism. Name a current war or conflict not involving monotheists as perpetrators.

Your problem is you've no idea what I believe, nor where my experience or understanding comes from. You face the problem of finding a way to block out the reality of the expression and application of those following your god provide, as the evidence continues to grow around you. How do you think these politicians get there, your kind blindly vote for them, all factions.

I'm against monotheism because its destroying the world, as it's been since its sordid inception. It's steeped in violent despotic barbarities against all living things on the planet. Your belief system is based on lies, as a pretext to wage war on everything, destroying it as you go. You have no other alternative but to attack people personally, no other option but violence, its the backbone of your entire life. None of your factions can live in peace, even fighting each other of the same faction, you call that sanity, I call that a despotic mental addiction. But god loves you, doesn't he?
Posted by The alchemist, Friday, 7 July 2006 7:22:17 AM
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It is easier to continually destroy others arguments rather than put a positive case together for your own position, especially when you do not have a position of worth. So by continually misrepresenting others position with lies and blatent infantile bashing in an attempt to create fear and hostility in the listening public is a precurser to war - North Korea is an example.
Posted by Philo, Friday, 7 July 2006 11:38:23 PM
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But Philo, you haven’t put forward a positive case for your own position (i.e. that there is a God) because you can’t. That is what is being criticized (by me anyway). There is no evidence to support your beliefs so your argument rests on thin air, brainwashing and old wives tales.

I agree with you that the alchemist is a bit over the top. And I disagree with his claim that it is religion that *causes* war etc. Economics cause war, religion is used as the cover and the justification, and as an opiate of the masses. However religious leaders do have a vested interest in what is going on and politic for their own interests. You can’t deny that. Political leaders also use religion for their own interests.

And the fact that religion is not based on any evidence means that followers must have “faith” in what they are being told. This leaves them wide open to being manipulated.

It also means that people are not learning how to think rationally, logically, scientifically and critically. As a result they are prone to believing anything they are told without questioning it sufficiently.

Have you ever questioned your religious leader about fundamental tenets of your faith? What happens when the questions get too hard? I bet that in the end you are just told that you must have faith, and that God moves in mysterious ways, all will be revealed etc.

That is the main problem with religion – it leads the natural inquisitiveness of the human mind into a tunnel of irrational and untrue answers which dulls peoples capacity for clear thinking. Once that is done, you are plasticine to be moulded by anyone - politicians, the media, your employer, Al Queda, David Koresh.

And religion itself creates fear – what is Hell if not something to be afraid of?
Posted by tao, Saturday, 8 July 2006 12:49:42 AM
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Philo, you destroy someones argument by putting forth a positive case for reality. It's monotheists who need to establish a “position of worth”.

“So by continually misrepresenting others position with lies and blatent infantile bashing in an attempt to create fear and hostility in the listening public is a precurser to war - North Korea is an example.”

This is how monotheists approach others, using fear and hostility. Iraq, Afghanistan, African countries, the America's, many in Asia, the pacific, all monotheistic controlled by invasion, either militarily or missionary.

We're in a precursor to war, another monotheistic one. You accuse Nth Korea of promoting war, but it'll be monotheists imposing sanctions, blockading and forcing them to defend themselves. I don't like Nth Korea's approach to life, they're only a problem because the followers of god are threatening them.

Its monotheists misrepresenting others positions, declaring them false because you can't understand the truthful pleasure of investigative evolution.

Tao, economics is a religion controlled by monotheists, an excuse to wage war upon the populace under the lies of improvement and growth. Economic growth is designed to disenfranchise the populace and enslave them, they can't do it by stealth and lies, (god). So they use another fallacy, economic rationalism and globalisation brings happiness, we all know thats another lie and illusion.

God and economic growth are lies in relation to the future, both give false hope and faith. Who promotes these lies, politicians, the rich, all following god. They use slave labour from the countries they've invaded to provide them with cheap resources, labour and increase profits.

Who owns the monopolies dumping tobacco and other destructive processed junk upon these fragile people, destroying their health in the name money. Missionaries set the scene for their enslavement, destroyed their way of life and environment, then handed them over to their elite worshipers to exploit.

Gods history is full of lies and deceit, as a pretext to wage war against people and the planet. Philo, name a historically verifiable positive contribution your god has made to the world.
Posted by The alchemist, Saturday, 8 July 2006 11:06:35 AM
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Part One

Here we might say that both corporate wheeler-dealerism and government spin has caught us up in the old controversy about freedom of choice - which in history as regards Christianity was finally partly solved by one of our most famous Christians as well as one of our greatest Western philosophers, St Thomas Aquinas.

It was Aquinas who accepted precepts of Ancient Greek philosophy introduced to the West by Islamic students. Apparently Aquinas had already decided that Christianity had to be lifted out of the doleful period we now know as the Dark Ages. Thus it came about that Christian faith became tempered with Aristotelian Reason, which not only greatly influenced the Rennaissance with thoughts more of earthly progress besides an afterlife, but which also gave great impetus to science and the Age of Reason followed by the the Age of Enlightenment-then into the exciting but problematic Democratic Age we are living in now - sensible reason, according to sociologists having become replaced once again with the crude animalistic doctrine of the survival of the fittest.

It was Darwin himself who died condemning former compatriots like Herbert Spencer and Walter Bagehot for helping to form what we now know as Darwinian Socialism, which not only gave more impetus to an already rampant colonialism later proven by the British invasion of South Africa and American imperial adventures into the Spanish possessions on both sides of the Pacific, as well as capturing Hawai.

Further, it was the so-called Darwinistic survival of the fittest concept which historians say not only helped begin WW1, but after Versaille, the angry revival of the Germanic Wermacht, giving sanction to Hitler to give command for all the horrendous Nazi Germanic atrocities of WW2.

How impressive it was for America and her victorious allies to forgive the German people for following the fanatical Hitler, gifting them with the Marshall Plan along with Japan. Also ridding the world of Soviet Stalinism placing the US by then in the global academy award status
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 8 July 2006 1:39:42 PM
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Part Two

Unfortunately, corporate greed and hegemon has now trapped the US like a huge fester, as it has trapped Britain, as well as Australia, and has really trapped us in Iraq. Like the blind leading the blind, our leaders have been too blind to see that corporatism is really nothing new, as proven by the East India Company which finally gained control of the whole of Ceylon.

Simply the economies of scale, as Adam Smith knew all about, play along carefully and you will have the lot. But it was Adam Smith who warned to remember you are dealing with people, who as a social philosopher thought also about the proletariat as part of his Wealth of Nations.

Maybe Bill Gates is another one who thinks about people, though some say he will get back more than he gives away - though he at least gives indication how with corporatism most of the wealth will rise to the top like junket does to milk.

But after thousands of years, as Darwin made clear before he died. For humans, we surely should have found a kinder and more compassionate way to live our lives different to the animals.

The point is, even through the ballot box, with economic rationalism and corporate power mesmerising both sides of government with lies or spin, we lower ranks have now lost the license to make the choice?
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 8 July 2006 1:47:55 PM
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Alchemist and Tao,

Yes you are both right - trying to explain God to you two is impossible not because He does not exist (plenty of evidence for those who care to look) but because it will be futile.

It takes FAITH.

If God could be explained in a test tube by His creation - that would defeat His work on the cross for humanity.

Since no one can honestly deny Jesus’ existence, death, and resurrection; and since everyone has access to the infallible word of God – that withstood centuries of criticism and attacks – there is no longer any excuse for anyone to discover all the proof needed to make a factual and logical decision to believe – unless they chose not to.

My “duty” as a Christian is not to convince you but to point you to the truth. I know that to you this is not credible because you feel “cleverer” than God; and that’s OK. God in His infinite wisdom accepts people as they are.

If it feels I am patronising – it’s definitely not my intent. But be assured that I speak from a position of perfect and intimate knowledge of the Supreme Being.

______________

Back to article – not withstanding the fact that leaders lie to advance their causes; I am interested in finding out what would be the secular plan in regard to the rising world Islamisation.

It is easy for you unreligious worldly people out there to criticise Christians for engaging the Islamic conflict and governments for implementing tactical corrections (wars) – but what would YOU suggest (apart from a full-on religious war) against this eminent aggressive Islamic threat?
Posted by coach, Sunday, 9 July 2006 11:20:05 PM
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coach,

If you analyze the situation in the Middle East you will find the injustice that the Arabs particularly Muslims have suffered from the "West" as a secular cause.

In the Palestinian/Israeli dispute: Israel flounts UN security resolutions as it continues its bloody campaign of occupation using the most advanced and deadly arms supplied by the USA. No one says a word to Israel and turns a blind eye to the carnage and havoc they rain down on unarmed and predominately Muslim civilians in Gaza.

Iraq was invaded, by the so called 'allies of the willing' for possession of WMD. Israel doesn't only have conventional WMD it also has nuclear weapons. Why the double standard? Why is Iraq invaded but not Israel? Why is it permissible for Israel to ignore the UN but not for Arab countries?

Today, Iran is facing the wrath of the USA and the UN for its development of nuclear weapons but it wasn't Iran that introduced them into the Middle East, it was Israel. Iran has every right for concern to defend itself as it has USA forces on its doorstep (who have already supported a war against Iran) and a belligerent Israel in its vicinity. Let Israel disarm its nuclear weapons and let the USA depart Iraq and Iran wouldn't need to develop any weapons.

Syria also on President Bush's list of the 'axis of evil' sees Israel, USA's erstwhile ally, recently 'buzzed' the President's palace with war planes as it publicly pronounces Syria's 'private plans to attack Israel, Israeli speak for a planned attack on Syria.

Just a few examples of the West's double standards and threatening attitude to Muslims who's lives are somehow more expendable.

I don't agree with what the jihadists are doing but they do have an argument which the West refuse to acknowledge.

Right the wrongs inflicted on the Arab world and the jihadists would have no argument that gives them such credibility among the down trodden and poor Arabs which are today a breeding ground for jihadist recruits.
Posted by drooge, Monday, 10 July 2006 11:14:35 AM
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Drooge - <Right the wrongs inflicted on the Arab world and the jihadists would have no argument that gives them such credibility among the down trodden and poor Arabs which are today a breeding ground for jihadist recruits.>

What 'wrongs' are we supposed to 'right' exactly? Most terrorists and their supporters are far from poor and downtrodden - how do you explain the posters featured in the Daily Telegraph report on Islamic internet hate sites? I have visited many of these sites and some are far worse then the example given.

These people have been given the chance of a new life in Australia - a country that has never imposed 'wrongs' on Arabs - yet they still carp and whine. I have asked this question many times - why the hell is Australia continuing to import these people?

Revealed: Sydney's web of hate

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,19736270-5001021,00.html
July 10, 2006

'MUSLIM extremists in Sydney are using the internet to gather support for making Australia an Islamic state.

The chat rooms also reveal a ground swell of support for notorious terrorists such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi among some young Muslims living in the suburbs.

Just a day after investigators in the US uncovered an internet-based plot to attack New York, The Daily Telegraph can reveal that Australian Muslim websites are awash with similar material.

The sinister forums are contained in innocent-looking websites posing as community discussion boards.

The Sydney Muslim Youth Forum, on which hundreds of young Muslims exchange views about Islam, devotes several threads to turning Australia an Islamic state.

"I reckon we stay and try our best to get to high positions in this country so it comes to the fold of Islam," wrote one member calling himself God's Slave 4 Life.

Another member called Wasalam also suggested imposing the Muslim way of life on Australian society from the inside and called on members to pray for Muslims waging war overseas.'

So much for 'poor and downtrodden'.
Posted by dee, Monday, 10 July 2006 12:26:07 PM
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Coach,

You completely contradict yourself: first you say there is plenty of evidence that God exists; then you say you have to have FAITH. Which is it? Is there evidence, or do you have to have faith? If there is evidence, show me.

I suppose this is it “Since no one can honestly deny Jesus’ existence, death, and resurrection; and since everyone has access to the infallible word of God – that withstood centuries of criticism and attacks – there is no longer any excuse for anyone to discover all the proof needed to make a factual and logical decision to believe – unless they chose not to.”

“Since no-one can honestly deny Jesus’ existence, death, and resurrection”. It seems possible that there was such a historical figure as Jesus Christ – although we don’t know for sure that there was. If he did exist then he most certainly died - nothing to deny there – a pretty human characteristic actually. That he was resurrected is the problem. The only “proof” you have is a book written by people with an agenda.

What is the “factual and logical decision” to be based on? The book of dubious origins? Give me a break. If that is all the evidence you have then you should limit yourself to talking about FAITH. Don’t embarrass yourself by talking about fact, evidence or proof. All it shows is that you don’t understand what you are talking about.

With regard to your comments about the secular solution to “rising Islamisation”, does that mean you condone a “religious war”? If so, you are no better than jihadists. Whatever happened to turning the other cheek? Or do you conveniently and hypocritically choose to ignore that lesson from your Saviour?

to be continued....
Posted by tao, Monday, 10 July 2006 6:51:51 PM
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Drooge, well said.

Dee, it should be said that if you choose to get your hysterical opinion from the Daily Telegraph then you have no hope of providing a reasoned and rational contribution to this forum. You are behaving in exactly the way the government and its media lackeys wants you to.

I have read through your past comments on other threads and, despite your protests, I consider you bigoted and xenophobic.

It is not Islamic terrorism you should fear, but your government.

Coach, the solution (simplistically due to word limits) is for average working class Christians, Muslims, Jews and members of all religions (and atheists) to recognize that they have more in common with each other than they do with their rulers and religious leaders, and that it is those leaders who are causing the wars, poverty and misery. They must then remove their leaders from power and reorganize society on the basis of human need, not profit.
Posted by tao, Monday, 10 July 2006 6:53:59 PM
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Tao – as you should know, if you had read my post, I said that there are several Islamic hate sites on the net. I don’t need to depend on the Daily Telegraph for information, those who take notice knew about these sites long ago.

<I consider you bigoted and xenophobic>

Your privilege. I consider you a blind fool. Fortunately, we live in a free country where we can express our opinions, which would not be the case if the idiots yammering on Islamic hate sites ever gained power.

BTW ‘xenophobia’ means 'hatred of foreigners' and is not applicable to Islam (which is a religion, not a race of people). And yes, I am certainly bigoted against people who have declared themselves enemies of Australia – in fact, its comical that you call me a bigot when these Muslim posters are perfect examples of bigotry. They are complete dummies, and highly unlikely to do any damage but that fact doesn’t make them any the less offensive.

I do fear the government. I fear that fools in authority will continue to import people who (by their own admission) have no place in Western society. If you wish to see the eventual effect of people like the Islamic hate-mongers, visit Europe. You will see the full catastrophe caused by unchecked Islamic immigration.

Instead of insulting people who rightly deplore the hateful blathering of ingrates, perhaps you should ask yourself why Muslims are the only group of migrants to ever behave in this fashion in Western countries. I dont see hate sites belonging to Christians, Buddhists or Jews, have you ever asked yourself why Muslim hate-mongers exist in such large numbers?

Have you ever asked yourself why they are so determined to force Islam upon the Western world? Or are you so busy being afraid of your own government that you haven't noticed?
Posted by dee, Monday, 10 July 2006 9:04:09 PM
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Tao says:
"They must then remove their leaders from power and reorganize society on the basis of human need, not profit."

Who or what determines what is needed
Posted by Horus, Monday, 10 July 2006 10:06:41 PM
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Dear Tao :)

"a book written by those with an agenda".....

I truly smile when I read this. Sure..they did have an agenda!
Do you know what it was ?

Have a think about that before you read on. See if your 'agenda' fits the facts.

All the Apostles except one (John) died horrible deaths. But long before that, they already died to this world
"For me, to live is Christ, to die is gain" (Philippians1:21) said Paul.
"I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"(Galatians 2:20)

"I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body," Phil1:20

And this:(Philippians 3)

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ.

YES indeed... they had an agenda. Paul talked the talk and walked the walk. Often in prison, persecuted, stoned and left for dead..... cursed. For what ? Paul 'had it all'..... and gave it up.....

.....*think*
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 6:15:48 AM
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drooge,

I sympathise with the Palestinians – who BTW are not all muslims – a great deal are Christians and even Jews. The frustration and inconvenience to be pushed aside and separated from their ancestral land is a terrible state.

A bit of history reading will reveal that the very land that these Palestinian once lived on was a birth right place donated by God to Abraham as a covenant to the “Jews”.

So before you start suggesting ‘righting the wrongs’ please accept the fact that the ME world was in relative peace before the insurgence of the invented religion of Islam.

Palestine was the birth place of Christianity in the God-donated land of Israel. The prophet Mohammad – an Arab from Mecca – had no claim to it. He raped and pillaged his way until Islam spread over Arabia when he died (632AD).

His followers continued the conquest and took North Africa up to Spain in Europe (west) and all the way to Indonesia (east) mostly by the power of the sword.

To claim a piece of the action, and to prove to the conquered world that Islam is to be respected as a new religion, a mosque (Al-Aqsa) was planted on the historical Jewish holiest temple.

Al-Aqsa, BTW means the ultimate or the furthest away from Mohammad’s place of origin. Mo had a dream or vision that he was transported to Jerusalem and landed on the temple site therefore had to claim it for Allah.

So when you start speaking about injustice, applied force, and birth/land rights please put it all in context. Who raped who? And who are the real bastards, heh?

Tao,

I am praying for your troubled soul.
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 8:38:04 AM
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Mr. Tao has religious sense much more than the religioners here, who lack the cheeks to give a chances of peace. If religions should exist today, it must fulfill the demand of justice, peace, human rights, and equality, the norms of today. Otherwise it would be the opium to delude the 'working class' for the next economic reconquista even by the name of Holy Roman Emperium.
Posted by Jelata, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 2:31:31 PM
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Dee,

You said “Fortunately,-we-live-in-a-free-country-where-we-can-express-our-opinions,-which-would-not-be-the-case-if-the-idiots-yammering-on-Islamic-hate-sites-ever-gained-power” and then “They-are-complete-dummies,-and-highly-unlikely-to-do-any-damage-but-that-fact-doesn’t-make-them-any-the-less-offensive.”

If they are such dummies, why are you so offended? If they are such dummies, surely you can be a bit more mature than them.

If they are highly unlikely to do any damage, what is your problem? Aren’t you over-reacting a little? Sticks and stones will break my bones etc.

For now we live in a relatively free country (which is in danger of becoming fascist thanks to our government). And if that is the case those dummies have every right to express themselves – just as you have a right to spew your ignorant prejudiced bile on this forum.

And then “I-don’t-see-hate-sites-belonging-to-Christians,-Buddhists-or-Jews,-have-you-ever-asked-yourself-why-Muslim-hate-mongers-exist-in-such-large-numbers?”

What exactly is the percentage of “extremist” Muslims within the Australian Muslim population? What is the percentage of “extremist” Muslims in the world Muslim population? I doubt you even know. I’d suggest that the media coverage is way out of proportion to the actual numbers. Perhaps you see all the hate sites because you are looking for them. I’m sure we have some Australian neo-Nazis and the like, with their own hate-sites too. On the other hand, what is the percentage of “extremist” war-mongers in our ruling class – pretty high I’d say.

Why should the majority of average everyday Muslims be discriminated against because there are a few “extremists”?

What right do you (presumably an immigrant or descendant of immigrants – uninvited by the original inhabitants of this country) have to decide that anyone should be barred from entry to this country on the basis of their religion? Is it that you are a better person than them? From your vitriol, I doubt it.

Horus – the people who do the work.

Jeleta – thank you, I think.

Boaz – Before telling me to *think*, I suggest you start thinking for yourself without relying on bible quotes.

Coach – I see you haven’t addressed any of my points or questions. I’ll assume you can’t.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 7:18:17 PM
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Tao,

1) “If they are such dummies, why are you so offended? … They are highly unlikely to do any damage, what is your problem”
The problem is Tao that a number of sub-cultures tend to be very insular. They read & think only their own side an issue. It’s easy for such insular environments to nurture terrorists- and you don’t need too many of them, to cause the rest of us as a lot of problems.

2) Who or what determines what is needed?
“The people who do the work “
Does that mean the unemployed, students, & leftist “academics” don’t get suffrage?
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 8:03:02 PM
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Horus,

1. What do you suggest we do Horus? Annihilate them? Exclude them? Drive them into poverty? Make them more insular and angry?

2. It will be up to the people to decide how their society will work, and it will be a lot more democratic and equal than it is now. I’d suggest that less people will be disenfranchised than are in the current system.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 10:43:09 PM
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Tao,

“What do you suggest we do Horus? Annihilate them? Exclude them? Drive them into poverty? Make them more insular and angry?”

No, but we don’t have to be as accommodating as we are either.

The Ayatollah Khomeini was given refuge in France but it didn’t make him any more well disposed towards the west.

It’s either the greatest example of “LOVE THY ENEMY” or the starkest example of CUCKOLDING that the west should:
-Give refuge to extremists
- Pay social welfare for their up keep
While all the while they talking us down , teaching their children to hate us,and conspire to murder us & disrupt our society.

[ and before you reach for your dictionary to find the spelling for words like ” xenophobia” “bigoted” etc –please note my qualification “extremists”
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 11 July 2006 11:44:11 PM
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< why are you so offended?>

I am offended because I don’t like ingrates, whatever their religion. Muslims were given the chance of a new life in Australia, yet too many wish to force their beliefs and way of life onto us. Perhaps these particular Muslims would be happier living under sharia law in one of the paradises their parents couldn’t wait to leave.

< have every right to express themselves>

And I have every right to voice my opposition to the 'ignorant bile' spewed by some Muslims.

<the percentage of “extremist” Muslims within the Australian Muslim population>

I doubt that many Muslims would admit to the 'extremist' description – but perhaps they could explain why literature expressing hate for Australia and the West is on sale in Islamic bookshops in Sydney. Perhaps they could explain why extremist clerics are invited to ‘preach’ jihad in mosques in Australia. If the number of Muslims who support terrorism is only 5% of the world population, we have a big problem. Judging by the number of Muslims on trial in almost every major city in the West for planning terrorist attacks against their host countries, Islamic extremists number far more than ‘a few’. Or were they all framed by those Western Fascist governments that terrify you so much?

Some never see the barbarians at the gates. I can only suggest that you visit Europe and ask the average European what he/she thinks about large scale Islamic immigration. European governments are reducing the entry of Muslims into their countries for very good reasons – soaring crime, rape (two thirds of rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim immigrants), hate crimes (like the threats against the Danish cartoonists and the murder of Theo van Gogh), extremists (who are only a fraction according to you) threatening anyone who raises a voice against them – like the charmer holding up the 'Behead anyone who disrespects Islam' banner in London. Guess that comes under 'free speech'.

Strange isnt it, that the West didnt have these problems before the arrival of millions of Islamic 'refugees' and immigrants.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 1:27:11 PM
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Dear, Dear, dee,

Did I ever say you didn’t have the right to express yourself? Although I now wish I had not commented on your hysterical opinions – it just gave you more opportunity to regurgitate your hateful ideas – yes hateful. At least Islamists have the decency to contain their rantings to their own sites. We have to put up with the likes of you, and the bible bashers, on this forum. Which is why this will be my last post regarding your uninformed nonsense.

You wrote “Strange isnt it, that the West didn’t have these problems before the arrival of millions of Islamic 'refugees' and immigrants.”

Which problems are you talking about? Terrorism? Haven’t you ever heard of the IRA?

Bombings? Haven’t you ever heard of Russell Street in Melbourne, or the Oklahoma City bombing?

Hateful propoganda? You can probably get Hitler's propoganda somewhere on the internet.

Is it only Islamic refugees and immigrants that engage in terrorism? I suggest you do some research on “Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organisation)” and “Fighters for Freedom of Israel”. Check out the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946.

Get a grip dee, and some perspective.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 8:51:34 PM
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Irfan, good article. I have a different perspective on Iraq but appreciate what you have to say.

coach makes the following comment early in the list of posts "Let's be clear here that it was Islam that started the war on the US. Does 9/11 still rind a bell?"

A point worth addressing. Something coach will not understand but others might get is that 9/11 was a step in a conflict that was already going on not the opening salvo. Numerous US owned targets had been attacked in the years and months leading up to that and I've seen reports of a failed rocket attack against Bin Ladden during Clinton's presidency. I'm sure many muslims could cite a litany of earlier incidents initiated by the US which they believe lead to 9/11. Attempts to simplify it down to 9/11 do not do the issue justice. Rather it is more like a hillbilly feud in which the incidents which started it are lost in history.

Who keeps it going? The extremists on both sides who believe that their own position will be strengthened by ongoing conflict.

- Muslim extremists who want to see an Islamic world (or at least the destruction of a number of special enemies).
- Christain extremists who don't like competition and who hope to leverage additional control over how others live by the introduction of more intrusive laws.

Add in some people who have believed the propaganda of the above two groups and have taken up the struggle because they think that it is necessary and all the other sides fault.

coach the above was not addressed to you - you appear to be so stuck in your muslim conspiracy theory that it would just be a waste of keystrokes to try and get you thinking about bigger issues.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 10:48:36 PM
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By the way dee, here is a list of terrorist organisations (including various religious terrorist groups): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_groups - but of course you “dont see hate sites belonging to Christians, Buddhists or Jews, have you ever asked yourself why Muslim hate-mongers exist in such large numbers?” Perhaps you’re not looking in the right place – too interested in promoting your own hate-mongering bias.

Yes, there are even Christian ones. Yes, in Western Countries. I thought this quote was interesting from the Army of God’s (a Christian anti-abortion Group) “Second Defensive Action Statement”:

• We the undersigned, declare the justice of taking all godly action necessary, including the use of force, to defend innocent human life (born and unborn). We proclaim that whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child.
• We declare and affirm that if in fact Paul Hill did kill or wound abortionist John Britton, and accomplices James Barrett and Mrs. Barrett, his actions are morally justified if they were necessary for the purpose of defending innocent human life. Under these conditions, Paul Hill should be acquitted of all charges against him.

Apparently Christian anti-abortionists think nothing of murdering or bombing people, or hate-mongering. A bit of a concern considering the numbers of Christians in the world - and of course we should judge them all by their “extremist” elements. Perhaps we should stop them immigrating, and better still, expel existing Christians from the country.

Of course you ought not to forget the Ku Klux Klan – in fact you might even consider joining it, I dare say it would suit you. In fact while talking about extremists taking over and large numbers, in 1924 the KKK had a membership of 6 million people, and in some regions as high as 40%. Apparently the "West" had problems after all.

I rest my case.

This really is my last post on your anti-Islamic rantings.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 10:51:39 PM
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It is evident from this thread that for public safety and social cohesion that two extreme positions cannot coexist. They both propogate lies and create mischief. One is the enemy of the other and will breed actions that result in civil violence. Therefore it is important that extremists of the minority group be removed from the society. They could be deported to the a country whose sympathy they have. Wars will always be the nature of extremists; so in Australian society because of the current views of sections of the Muslim community they must be incarsarated or deported. Two opposing extremist positions cannot coexist and retain social cohesion.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 12 July 2006 11:15:59 PM
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One problem philo - how would anyone differentiate let alone determine who or what constitute extremisism in that minority group.

Would you also get rid of the extremists sympathisers ?

What about those who would lie and swear allegiance to Australia when in fact they don’t have the slightest interest ?

What about those who are financing the extremists ?

Those who are educating them ?

Those who abide to the same barbaric teaching and find no real problem with it ?

Those who when pushed a little would gladly jump the fence and pick up arms ?

I say to put a stop to it all, it is imperative to deal with the problem head on. Open a public inquiry and scrutinize the core teachings and political agenda of that particular minority group.

We have dealt with previous political threats in our brief history. Let’s not dismiss this threat as a small hot headed fringe group of extremists. The ideologies that unite them spell disaster for the rest of the free world.
Posted by coach, Thursday, 13 July 2006 7:49:05 AM
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Tao – I am well aware of minority hate groups but to compare them with Islamic terror organizations is ludicrous. I’m not a bit worried about parts of my city being blown sky-high by the KKK, anti-abortionists or Irish nationalists but a group of Islamic would be terrorists in Sydney and Melbourne were recently planning to do just that – have you heard of Faheem Lodhi and his merry crew? Or the group in Canada?

<.. expel existing Christians from the country>

Is this meant to be logic? It has probably escaped your notice that Australia was founded by Christians and our laws are based on Christian tenets even if we don’t always live up to them.

Please don’t try to cloud the issue with stories of anti-abortionists etc. And to use KKK stats from 1924 as an example of some kind of moral equivalency is beyond lame. The 10 most wanted terrorists on the FBI list are all Muslims - http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm.

The riots, threats and head-chopping are being carried out by Muslims, not Christian anti-abortionists or the KKK. Do you really think a few attacks by fringe nutter groups compares with the thousands of attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists?

<my last post on your anti-Islamic rantings>

Glad to hear it. You have chosen to ignore relevent points such as the situation resulting from Muslim immigration in Europe - debating with an ostrich is a waste of time.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 13 July 2006 1:23:40 PM
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philo, "Therefore it is important that extremists of the minority group be removed from the society." - it would make more sense to deal with the larger group of extremists. Whilst your proposal might be useful to get a quick run on the board if we really must go down the track of removing extremists from society which you suggest we should start with the extremists in the larger of the two main groups of protagonists. As coach correctly points out we might then have to turn our attention to all those who sympathise with the extremists and that does raise some practical issues.

I don't personally like your idea but am willing to learn from the posts of those I disagree with.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 14 July 2006 12:37:00 PM
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Back on the topic to expose master-deceivers!

As a consequence of the rational Tao uttered challenge, followed-by-the-meticulous research on my part into ..."Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organisation)"... and so-called ..."Fighters for Freedom of Israel"... the bona-fide-history testimonies revealed that in 1940, an extremely lethal Stern-Gang, a splinter faction of the revisionist Irgun-Group, combined of the terrorist power-brokers (jostling to contest a place in the Zionist venture), went as far as to make an offer -- to join the WWII on the Nazi side. Towards the erection Zionist-Vatican upon the Haram-as-Sharif, on the national and totalitarian basis, bound by the treaty with the Nazi-Reich.

Due to the fact that supremacist Zionists and their cultivated Nazi proxies had-a-common interest to force assimilationalist Jew-lesser brethren of Europe to depart to Palestine. Exposing thus diabolical relationship, where aloof Zionists did not merely fail-to-lead towards any resistance or ever defend our Jew-lesser brethren survival, they in fact actively sabotaged all the efforts by the rival Jew groups. While plotting with the fascist counterparts towards the Third-Reich sponsorship ... not merely because it appeared powerful enough to impose Zionist colony in the Palestine, but because Nazi practices were consonant with the racist Zionist aspirations.

Though conveniently after-the-war the-victors concocted-a-myth as-a-norm to-devalue otherwise significant magnitude of the Zionist participation in crimes committed-against-the-humanity, by shifting focus of the inquiry entirely onto terrorist Stern-Gang, ran by Nathan Yalin-Mor and Israel Scheib (Eldad). The future Israeli Prime Ministers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir chose to join at the time (Avraham Stern's freedom-fighters for Israel).

These facts give-an-extra-edge of topicality to what-in-any-case has been already a highly controversial records study of the Zionism in-a-hey-day of escalated-fascism. When Zionists were already in-bed with what later became known as Axis-of-Evil. Combined of the fascist Benito-Mussolini's-Italy and Tojo-Hideki's-Japan. Mind you, that on March 29th, 1936, Zionists praised Jew-Duce and his fascist-regime at the opening of the Maritime-School, where black-Nazi-uniformed Zionist-Youth-Betar-Group (headed by Begin) trained young Jew sailors towards the Zionist savagery escapades. Funded by the Fascist Government of Civitavecchia.

As to the diminished democracy exposé down-under, please proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4625#47660
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 15 July 2006 12:07:11 PM
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Mind you that largely suppressed, shifty-history-of-Zionism is utterly sordid. To digest it, one ought to first-study authentic-testimonies, epitomised within the researched chapters by me. Where so incredibly, the founders of diabolical Zionism despaired in public on a difficulty in combating anti-Semitism, though paradoxically regarded themselves as anti-Semite's allies. For the reason of the shared desire to uproot our tenacious Jew-lesser brethren from the European countries of their ancestral habitation. As step-by-step Zionists assimilated values of hatred versus Jew-lesser brethren. Or wasn't it actually vice versa? As Zionists came to regard anti-Semites as their most reliable sponsors and protectors of an-ultimate-goal to get Jew-lesser brethren deported to the autonomous statelet. Carved by the blood drenching Zionists out of Palestine, to the detriment its natural inhabitants, who faced extermination.

No wonder Theodor-Herzl approached none other than Jew-Count Von-Plehve, the instigator of the worst terrorist-pogroms in Russia (Kishinev-bloodbath) with a sly proposition: "Help my people to reach Palestinian land sooner, and a revolt against the Tsarist rule will end". Von-Plehve agreed as he undertook to finance Zionist project. Although later he complained to Herzl: "These Jews have been joining revolutionary parties instead. We were sympathetic to your Zionist project, as-long-as it led towards Jews departure. You don't have to justify your Zionist ideology to me ... you are preaching to a convert".

At the time Herzl and Weizmann with the blood on their hands, furthermore offered their services to guarantee future Tsarist interests in Palestine. Linked as a package deal, to see eastern Europe's Jew-aristocracy getting rid-off an-obnoxious and subversive anarcho-Jew-bolsheviks. Equally such a sly embodied appeals were made simultaneously by the connived Zionists to: Sultan of Turkey, Kaiser of Germany, British and French imperialists in endless succession

Lest we forget to mention Ukrainian-Jew-fascist Simon-Petilura who personally directed his terrorist-pogroms that killed 28,000 Jew-lesser brethren in 897 separate terror-pogroms. No wonder Zionist-Jabotinsky negotiated an alliance with ... by proposing NMO (National Military Organisation) henchmen to accompany Petilura's bandits in their counter-revolutionary war-of-attrition against the Red-Army and Jew-bolshevik-revolutionaries. Encompassing bloodiest process, involving murder of peasants, workers and intellectual supporters of the-Jew-revolution.
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 15 July 2006 12:14:40 PM
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'Hateful ideas', 'hysterical comments', bigoted' etc etc

Isnt anyone going to apply these words to our resident anti-Semite Leo
Posted by dee, Saturday, 15 July 2006 1:07:37 PM
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My point was that to place extreme opponents in the same space is a recipe for conflict.e.g Cronulla. Extremists misrepresent the others position as evidenced from the above posts. Lies are the nature of extremists.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 15 July 2006 10:12:58 PM
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Further on the topic to expose master-deceivers!

Dee ..."I agree with you, but how do we deal with those members of society who are of low intelligence or who refuse to listen to the voice of reason"? A propos-surreptitious elders-of-zion utilisation movers-n-shakers over-the-years in attempt to score crucial sponsorship from European imperialists or an Ottoman empire's, as Zionist connivers sought-to-establish their significant foothold in Palestine. No wonder for instigated-arm-twisting of the recalcitrant Sultan of Turkey, to grant-Zionist-vagabonds an autonomous statelet in return for disinformation-tactics-emission, bent to discredit in a typical Zionist-chutzpah-style, otherwise mounting publicity, concerning Armenians genocide.

Now surely to the moral people, it would appear anomalous that-such-a-deliberate mass-scale-extermination by Turks to-be defended by Vladimir Jabotinsky (and other Zionist leaders). Not to the unyielding WZO, known to thrive over-dead-bodies. Adamant at the time to take-a-care of Ottoman Empire's escalating debts (due to high-interest-charges). Yet all the efforts ended-up in a-fiasco as Abdul Hamid a Jew himself, knew perfectly well that Zionist sought-autonomous-statelet in Palestine was merely an-overture towards the actual goal to embed Zionist destabilisation in a midst Ottoman's empire.

At the time faded also Zionist-trickle-migration as-a-first-wave by-hook or by-crook in enticed Jew-settlers to Palestine (around 1927) found an arid-n-stony dirt too-hard to-tackle within their futile exertion in-agriculture, an-occupation Jews hardly touched for-donkey-years. What halted volunteer-Jew-influx into land of the "milk and honey". Above all after the overwhelmingly reached conclusion by the would-be-pioneer-farmers. Who felt pretty-well assimilated in Europe. Hence, they didn't really wanted to swap their cultural way-of-life for the barren-wasteland-toil and utopian-Zionist-dreams.

Knowing that Germany's Jew-lesser brethren would never voluntarily leave their homeland, Zionist operatives looked elsewhere as they turned instead to the Tsarist court, to-seek needed support, facilitating-Jew-lesser brethren uprooting to Palestine. Apparently Russia tolerated at first Zionism as long as rascal-Jews-purging was underway (ensuing Zionist-sown-calamity). Moscow police-bureau-chief was known to develop his own strategy as he placed division between the Tsarist and Zionist opponents. Yet what an irony was for the oppressed Jew-lesser brethren, subjugated via twin-prong-oppression, to produce Russia's first socialist proletariat organisation Bund (General Jew Workers League).
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 17 July 2006 1:41:03 PM
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Although such-a-newly found Bund was clandestinely tackled via Zionist-mobilised-in-turn an-alternative Poalei-Zion (Workers-of-Zion) bandits. Created deliberately by belligerent Zionists to sabotage and smash-Jew-workers-movement. But as some-sane-elements within the Zionist ranks responded to the-repressive-tactics (that fuelled mass discontent) by concerning themselves with-Jew-worker's-rights in Russia ... as-a-penalty Jewish-Colonial-Trust sustained a fatal-blow (cutting proletariat's finance). As dilapidated Jew-bank-function became limited solely to the Jew-Tax absorption, intended-to-fund-deportations to Palestine. Yet as a situation deteriorated even-worse, moreover Jew workers joined revolutionary parties instead.

Insofar Russia's sympathy for the-Zionist-project remained intact as-long-as it produced rascal-Jew-uprooting to Palestine. Yet talks a propos Palestine migration receded as local cultural sense-of-ancestral-belonging sprang and evolved into-Jew-nationalism in Russia. So detrimentally to the imperialist-Russian-charter of support for the Zionist-autonomous-statelet in Palestine. Conditional to Jew revolutionaries ceased struggle against the Tsarist regime. However working-class Jew-proletariat not-to-call-off their struggle for the elementary-human-rights in return for-a-vague promise of the Zionist autonomous statelet in a distant Palestine.

So imperialist Russia's monarchical aristocracy within the 'rule-by-the-best', had a few choice words for Theodor Herzl. Who in some stage in l903, was so utterly desperate as to consider a surreal proposition from Britain. As a substitute for Palestine to accept an alternative Zionist colony in Kenyan Highlands. Yet a hard-core Russian-Zionists rejected such a bizarre to them notion, while threatening to ditch WZO, if Uganda was ever considered. In line with the megalomaniac Herzl's vision of himself as an-another Jew-Cecil-Rhodes. To whom hardly mattered where a future-Jew-colony to-be situated. But to most Russian-Zionists it meant an extension of biblical-heritage (to-culminate-in-erection Zionist-Vatican upon the Haram-as-Sharif).

Enraged Russian Zionists even tried to assassinate Herzl's lieutenant Max Nordau, and only Herzl's "premature-death" prevented WZO collapse. At the time when imperial Russia had not-a-slightest influence with Turk's ruling-class aristocracy, who saw Russia as their enemy. Thus with WZO without any army, the mighty mafia was gifted nonetheless with Chaim Weizmann's spun-intrigues in London, just as Vladimir Jabotinsky scored Tsarist accord in-lieu-of-a-volunteer Russian-Jew-Legion, to help Great-Britain in taking Palestine by force. As thousands-of-young Russian-Jew-dissidents (still-Russian-citizens) were threatened with deportation by Jew_Home_Secretary Herbert-Samuel, if they didn't volunteer to the British-Army.
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 17 July 2006 1:46:07 PM
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Dee

At the risk of giving you an excuse to carry on –

I personally haven’t said much about Leo – mainly because I can’t understand what he is rambling on about.

Leo – if you were a bit more clear and concise about what you are saying we might take you seriously.

Anyway, from what I can gather he is anti-Zionist, not necessarily anti-Semitic. And I think he might be Jewish. I could be wrong on both fronts. Please clarify Leo?

By the way dee, regarding your comment: “And to use KKK stats from 1924 as an example of some kind of moral equivalence is beyond lame”.

You miss the point again dee, I am not engaging in moral equivalency, my discussion of other terrorist organisations, including the KKK in 1924 was to refute your point that the “West” didn’t have problems prior to Muslim immigration. The “West” has had plenty of problems of its own making. It also could be argued that the current “war on terror” is also of its own making.

You can’t blame all of the problems we have on one ethnic or religious group – they do not exist in a vacuum – and are both affected by, and affect, objective events.

Nor should the rest of us discriminate against or persecute an ethnic or religious group because of your small minded prejudice.

There are more fundamental issues at play than religious belief and ideology.
Posted by tao, Monday, 17 July 2006 9:05:12 PM
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Tao - reread please:

'European governments are reducing the entry of Muslims into their countries for very good reasons – soaring crime, rape (two thirds of rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim immigrants), hate crimes (like the threats against the Danish cartoonists and the murder of Theo van Gogh), extremists (who are only a fraction according to you) threatening anyone who raises a voice against them – like the charmer holding up the 'Behead anyone who disrespects Islam' banner in London."

Of course the West has problems, no culture is perfect. However, until the Muslim invasion, we did not have these particular problems. Immigrants threatening to behead anyone who 'disrepects' their religion? Rioting and burning over a few lame cartoons? 'Honour' killings?

Before you say 'its only a minority' may I remind you of the old adage: 'bad drives out good'. The 'minority' you speak of is large enough to destabalise Western society. At the risk of repetition, go to Europe and see for yourself the disaster brought about by Muslim immigration.

"... more fundamental issues at play than religious belief and ideology."

For Islamic extremists, there are no other issues than:

1. their religion and their desire to force it onto others at all costs. Islam is a polity as well as a religion.

2. their pathological hatred of Israel.

A YouGov poll among Britain's Muslims immediately after the July 7 bombings (London's The Daily Telegraph, July 23) found 6% believed them fully justified. A further 24%, while not condoning the bombings, expressed sympathy with the feelings and motives of their perpetrators. Some 32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral" and "Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

But hey, its 'only a minority'.

You might also consider the fact that there is violence everywhere that Muslims live - almost every country in the world is now threatened by the actions of Islamic extremists. Perhaps you could tell us which country is the exception?

I dont need an excuse to 'carry on' - the facts are clear enough.

No need to reply to this post.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 2:00:46 PM
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• Tao!

Point taken with-a-sinking feeling just-to-realise that the role-model conscientious citizen's stance taken for the Jew-lesser brethren survival, contrary to the silver-tongued Zionists usurpation of an entire Jewish race, has been written-off simply "as virtually indecipherable form of a concept, except-for-being some sort of anti-Jewish-rant". Undoubtedly it sickens decent majority of OLO forum users to-listen over-n-over again to the fanatical Zionist slur emissions. Dispatched willy-nilly as-norm against the ordinary Jews, such as myself. Who has been viciously smeared as a "resident-Jew-hater" and utmost ludicrously as a "racist anti-Semite".

Having said that, inevitably at this point I became a prime-candidate to face their relentless ''Self-Hating Jew'' slur emissions. Utilised deliberately by the Zionist radicals to harass, humiliate and intimidate some of the sane-raised-Jews, within-an-attempt to deflect OLO forum debate from the real issues in question. Especially pertinent at the moment with the hijacked world destiny at the crossroads. Where people like the indoctrinated Zionists (veiled under revolved aliases cast on the internet forums) having a-real-stake in blurring disparity between the Jews.

How else they to utilise otherwise our Jew-lesser brethren embodiment (scapegoated as the human shield) to deflect focus from the actual plague. Synonymous with Solomonic blood aristocracy, an-almighty chosen to-rule the world, within the 'rule by the best'. Whereas to grasp the core essence of such a bizarre phenomenon, one ought to probe into the root of Jewanderthal species and their godlike will-imposition upon-humble Homosapiens, latest entrants on the planet earth, as proverbial Goyim and Shiksas. Who survived since time immemorial manifold millenniums span the malevolent psycho-primates breed savagery.

Just as a mercurial scourge via surreptitious metamorphosis emerged into Jewvoracious aristocracy by the monarchy rule, traversing isolationist psychopaths induced interbreeding (spare-a-though for the slain in their midst, our bellowed Jew princes Diana). To emanate into Roman empire's reign, as-a-mighty-evil transformed into anti-Christ Vatican to-subjugate plebeians and coerce payment of taxes. Ratified by cuckoo-nest incubated tyrant-regimes, as embryonic Christianity was hijacked by anti-Christ Vatican, presided ever-since by 266 Jew-Popes. Intertwined into competing mass of psychopaths used religious lies as a pretext for war between the blue-blooded rivalry-royals.
Posted by Leo Braun, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 4:00:28 PM
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Obviously such a ground-breaking revelations extent to-take some-time to-digest, in the meantime I might be accused with the simplistic analysis of a very-complex-issue. Not if we're going-to-explore in a meanwhile the correlative phenomenon, where cuckoo-nest incubated world rulers seem-to-toe the line obligated by the elders-of-zion. Whilst the majority of the population they-preside-over, being categorically opposed-to. For the simple reason, because our leaders are never chosen from the prevailing genome of the populous, they dare-to-allege to-represent.

However a vision-impaired dill-flock (within the blind-leading-blind guidelines) haven't got any-clue a propos Jew-rulers practiced any kind-of-religions (concocted by Jews anyway). Bearing in-mind that since time immemorial Jewish aristocracy within the rule 'by-the-best' impersonated myriad of ethnic-groups via its vastly incubated ari-stock-race sly look-a-likes.

Commonly termed as Western, Eastern, Asian, Oriental, Middle-Eastern, Dutch, Portuguese, French, English, German, American, Aussie, Italian, Irish, Iranian, Spanish, Polish, Czech, Russian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Indian, African, Afghani, Arab (add any omitted).

Within the kaleidoscope of religions to pose as Christians, Catholics, Chaldean Christians, Protestants, Anglicans, Lutherans, Evangelic (Hill-Song), Greek (Russian) Orthodox, Hindus, Muslims (and so forth) in a variety of faith wraps to suit application.

Take a deep-breath as difficulty is expected for novices while trying to associate the particular ethnic-group people's image with their rulers or preachers likeness. When not much in common was to-be found in transplanted reflections. Derived solely of the-Jew-cuckoo frequented nests. Prominently practised within the terrain of bloody conquests in the aftermath Roman/Spanish crusades. Where even remainder of the scorched-nests were-Jew-cuckoo cross-pollinated.

As-a-challenge for dedicated observer with propensity in deciphering facial depictions (once having sufficiently trained eye), may I suggest to employ an-acuity to-detect quite a unique kind-of-features. Not meant for any derogatory manners acrimony, under racist exploits. In fact our Jew characteristics are redeeming indeed, for devoted onlooker. Don't expect for it to occur overnight, but it eventually to-happen.

For starters, one to-commence observation of non-caucasian rulers or preachers, who amazingly to-be found quite distinct from the populous, they ought-to-represent. Then one to-progress into-scrutiny (obvious to-lesser extent) the caucasian rulers or preachers, embodying as-norm our Jew reflections.
Posted by Leo Braun, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 4:11:25 PM
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Thanks for your clarification Leo. But I am still having difficulty understanding you.

Well dee,

I trust Leo will now see an apology from you. Not only is he not anti-Semitic, but he is Jewish and opposes Zionism. Perhaps you should do some research on Zionism and Israel or just history in general. You might actually find out why some Palestinians, and Muslims in general, are so angry. Not that anything excuses terrorism, but there are definite political, social and economic reasons for any phenomenon, including Islamic extremism.

Perhaps you should also apologise to the rest of the posters on this thread who you accused and attacked for failing to weigh into your uninformed attack against someone you know nothing about.

Perhaps there is a lesson for you in this about jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about others based on the products of your own narrow intellectual ability.

Perhaps before shooting your mouth off next time you should learn from another famous xenophobic simpleton and ask first “please explain”.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 10:09:05 PM
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If you read the propaganda put foward by Muslims in Australia you would think the only persons suffering terror are those in Southern Lebanon.

Could I mention on the first day of the conflict Hizb'Allah fired 600 rockets into Northern Israel. Thousands of families are hiding in terror in bunkers. It is not just the Lebanese who are suffering, Israel has suffered long at the fanaticism of Hizb'Allah who believe it is the mission of Allah to wipe Israel off the face of the planet.

If you listen to talk back radio the only voices heard are the voices of dual citizen Lebanese who are terrified for their relatives in the war zone controlled by Hizb'Allah. I can say that Israel will not stop until Hizb'Allah are disarmed as the UN have ruled. All threat to Israel's security must be disarmed before they will negotiate with such a religion.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 19 July 2006 10:42:43 PM
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Leo Braun - please accept my profound apology for mistaking you for an ordinary anti-Semitic racist when you are in fact an anti-Semitic Jew. Or should that be 'anti-Zionist' Jew.

I realise that some Jews are anti-Israel and disagree with many actions of the Isareli government, but the language you use goes far beyond simple disagreement. Whether or not you intend it, your posts sound as if they are written by someone with a pathological hatred of Jews. Do you hate Zionism or do you hate everyone who believes in it - which would obviously be every Jew living in Israel and the majority of Jews living in other countries?

See? I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong - so anyone who feels 'offended' by my objection to cut and paste anti-Semitic diatribes and very offensive racial slurs (no matter who wrote them) - consider yourself apologised to.

When I am proven wrong about the negative effects of Islamic immigration, perhaps I will receive an apology also.

Tao - is a comparison to Pauline the worst insult you can think of? Sad. Although I dont agree with Pauline, at least she had the courage to stand up and voice her opinions in the face of some very determined efforts to deny her the right of free speech. BTW didnt anyone ever tell you that personal insults are verboten in a genuine debate? I will not be offended if you stick to your promise not to respond to my posts.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 20 July 2006 12:48:19 PM
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As a result of posting when I should have previewed, some of my post didn’t make it –

‘When I am proven wrong about the negative effects of Islamic immigration, perhaps I will receive an apology also’

Of course, this should have read:

‘When I am proven RIGHT about the negative effects of Islamic immigration, perhaps I will receive an apology also’

To continue:

Tao – If you wish to throw around phrases like ‘narrow intellectual ability’ I suggest you read your own posts. You have not addressed one single point – no response to the facts on Islamic immigration in Europe, no answer for why so many Muslims are impossible to integrate into Western society, no response to the presence of terrorist cells and their supporters in every major Western and Asian country, including Australia – your stock answer is ‘Its only a minority’.

Islamic leaders tell us every day that their agenda is to force their religion onto western countries, there are literally hundreds of quotes – I find it very strange that people (such as yourself) choose not to believe them.

‘Its only a minority’ has been your sole contribution to the discussion – plus name-calling. You have not managed to disprove one single thing I have stated, you have simply dodged the questions. ‘Narrow intellectual ability’? A classic case of projection maybe.

BTW – ‘xenophobia’ means ‘hatred of foreigners’ so this term is misapplied. Like Pauline, you do not understand the meaning of the word.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 20 July 2006 3:07:55 PM
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dee,

I have not dodged any issues, I just don’t have a one-sided, blinkered view as you do. I am also suspicious of the hype generated by the media, and the “facts” fed to us by the government and other vested interests.

As you are so concerned about genuine debate, let us begin:

“You~have~not~addressed~one~single~point~–~no~response~to~the~facts~on~Islamic~immigration~in~Europe,”

Which “facts” are you talking about? Where do you get your “facts” on Islamic immigration in Europe? Why should I respond when you don’t cite your sources? Not that I must necessarily dispute your “facts”, perhaps just the conclusions you draw from them.

“No~answer~for~why~so~many~Muslims~are~impossible~to~integrate~into~Western~society”

How do you define “impossible to integrate”? What do you mean by “so many”? Even if your sweeping statement were “true”, aren’t there many more Muslims who have no trouble integrating?

“no~response~to~the~presence~of~terrorist~cells~and~their~supporters~in~every~major~Western~and~Asian~country,~including~Australia”.

Again, which terrorist cells are you talking about? What evidence do you have aside from biased news reporting? Much of the relevant “evidence” in Australian Courts is restricted from even the alleged suspects for “national security” reasons.

“You~have~chosen~to~ignore~relevent~points~such~as~the~situation~resulting~from~Muslim~immigration~in~Europe~-~debating~with~an~ostrich~is~a~waste~of~time.”

I do not ignore the “situation resulting from Muslim immigration in Europe” - I am well aware of it (although not as obsessed by it as you) – I just don’t think it is a reason to discriminate against and persecute a whole group – as I have previously stated.

I am also aware of (all though by no means an expert on) the situations WHICH RESULT IN Muslim immigration and, let us not forget, Muslim refugees. I am also aware that there must be many factors (which I have no experience of) which contribute to someone going so far as to strap explosives to their body and blow themselves to smithereens taking others with them. You choose to ignore these factors.

to be continued
Posted by tao, Thursday, 20 July 2006 10:14:15 PM
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continued from above

At~the~risk~of~repetition,~go~to~Europe~and~see~for~yourself~the~disaster~brought~about~by~Muslim~immigration.”

Well, I’ve just come back from Europe and it doesn’t seem too “disastrous” to me. Just as it doesn’t seem too “disastrous” here. I suppose your unsubstantiated use of the emotive “disastrous” is a valid part of “genuine debate”.

“You~might~also~consider~the~fact~that~there~is~violence~everywhere~that~Muslims~live~-~almost~every~country~in~the~world~is~now~threatened~by~the~actions~of~Islamic~extremists.”

You, dee, might consider that everywhere the Western Christian white man goes on his imperialist crusades he uses violence to oppress the indigenous populations in order to exploit natural and human resources, the Middle East included. How many people in the world have been threatened, and in fact colonised by, Western Imperialsim? Perhaps you should consider the “disastrous” consequences of such actions on the indigenous population of this country. But these sorts of things are facts you conveniently dismiss in your “genuine debate”.

“These~people~have~been~given~the~chance~of~a~new~life~in~Australia~-~a~country~that~has~never~imposed~'wrongs'~on~Arabs~-~yet~they~still~carp~and~whine.”

How about an illegal “pre-emptive” strike on Iraq, the results of which have been “disastrous” ? No doubt you were, and are, fully behind the coalition of the willing’s violent and destructive invasion and occupation of a country, having swallowed the propaganda holus bolus. However, there are is large section of the Arab community, and indeed the Western community, who do not agree with you. Of course, no doubt you’ll just dismiss such objections because such “facts” are inconvenient to your “genuine debate”.

“Islamic leaders tell us every day that their agenda is to force their religion onto western countries, there are literally hundreds of quotes – I find it very strange that people (such as yourself) choose not to believe them.”

I’m sure they believe what they are saying, as do you. The point is, are they in a position to carry it out? I seriously doubt it. More concerning is the actions of the most powerful military machine in the world, which I might add, is the only nation to have used a nuclear weapon – on civilians no less, and its allies.

And BTW dee, the Collins English Dictionary’s definition of xenophobia is “hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture”. If the shoe fits……
Posted by tao, Thursday, 20 July 2006 10:16:35 PM
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"Firstly 9/11 was not the start of any conflict. This was just another episode in a conflict that has gone on for many years.

This was an escalation, a big escalation of previous how do you call them "episodes."

"Who started it, who is to blame"

Islamic extremists, that's who. Hello, anybody home upstairs inside your head?

"You could argue until the cows come home over this but the US certainly didn't have clean hands by the time of 9/11"

There is no argument. Islamic extremists-totally at fault. USA, the victim. Speaking of not having clean hands, you didn't exactly treat those aboriginals so lovely did ya??

" And the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11"

Nobody said it did.

"Secondly, while the apparent perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim, that doesn't make Islam as a religion culpable"

Nothing apparent about it, they WERE MUSLIMS. Islam as a religion is culpable because it instructs war against the infidels.

"This is like saying many Catholic priests are paedophiles, therefore the Catholic religion is responsible for paedophilia."

Actually, the Catholic religious leadership of the church IS responsible for covering for those pedophiles all these years
Posted by Kevin22, Thursday, 20 July 2006 11:33:00 PM
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Kevin22 that was a rather sad little piece.

Why is it so necessary to see the conflict as being entirely the fault of one side? That is not the real world.

I tend to be fairly pro US but that does not exclude the ability to see that their governments choices in international affairs have not always been fair to those impacted. 9/11 remains a horror in history but then those who carried out the attack did not have access to giant warships, cruise missiles, fleets of supersonic bombers and the like to carry out their work in a more civilised manner (some irony there in case you didn't notice it). We remain horrified by brutality that lead to the deaths of those the few thousand but mostly live with the collatoral damage resulting from fighting for what we believe is right. I was glad to see the overthrow of Sadam but wonder how many innocents died during "Shock and Awe".

In regard to holding all muslims to blame for the actions of extremists - would you blame a baptist for corruption in the Catholic Church because that is what you are doing when you blame all muslims for the actions of one portion of their faith. Feel free to blame their god for not intervening but not those who don't share the same views and who don't have any control over the actions of the perpetrators.

A belief that all of the other side is evil and that our side is righteous does not help us learn to do better in the future, it just leads to the kind of wrong thinking that motivated those who piloted those planes in their final moments.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 21 July 2006 7:55:32 AM
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Tao - '.. everywhere the Western Christian white man goes on his imperialist crusades ..'

'Imperialist crusades'; 'colonised by Western Imperialsim'

When a person uses this kind of language I know that further communication is a waste of time for us both. However:

" .. many factors .. which contribute to someone going so far as to strap explosives to their body and blow themselves to smithereens taking others with them.'

This action appears to be carried out solely by Muslims, encouraged by radical clerics using the koran as justification. Muslims are not the only 'oppressed' people in the world but they are the only ones carrying out suicide bombings.

"I’ve just come back from Europe and it doesn’t seem too “disastrous” to me."

I wonder if the people of Paris (two weeks of Muslims rioting and burning) and Denmark (Muslims rioting and burning over cartoons) or Holland (the murder of Theo van Gogh by a radical Muslim) would agree with you? All the Europeans I met, including my relatives, were worried about the situation. When I was in Antwerp, I witnessed an anti-Jewish riot carried out by Muslim immigrants, mostly Algerian. Guess it depends where you go.

" ..facts you conveniently dismiss in your “genuine debate”."

I didnt know we were discussing the effect of western civilisation on indigenous people. I thought we were discussing the dangers of large scale Islamic immigration on western civilisation. At least the Australian aboriginals need not worry - Sheik al-Hilaly has informed us that the ancient aboriginals were in fact Muslims. That should make us all feel better about the latest con - $8 million of taxpayers money for an 'Islamic institute'.

I am posting this in a hurry, if you want sources and stats for rape/violence/honour killing in Europe, I can provide them when I return.
Posted by dee, Friday, 21 July 2006 2:16:11 PM
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Thanks guys for your thoughtful replies, glad to join voices of reason frequented OLO forum, as within my prelude I am to share the encountered facts-of-life in reflection on the Jew-lesser brethren endured subjugation in the land of 'milk-n-honey'. Though I am new to this unique on-line-opinions site, I must admit that thus far, I like what I see, the participatory democracy in its making. As our live-vital topics are debated here fearlessly. So I am about to share from a first-person-perspective (beyond the glance at-the-tip of-an-iceberg).

I am not an-armchair scholar, who have been to the Middle-East long enough. Where my impressions have been formed from talking and interacting with Israelis and Palestinians alike. As-well-as such other subjugated minorities in the eretz Israel. I should add that although I was born and raised Jewish, I am not practising Jew, due to reasons impacted largely by witnessing what has been going-on in Judaism's name (Zionist collateral ravage fallout consequences).

Certainly like most white-suburban Jews, I was initially brainwashed, so it was very-hard to unshackle one's mind-n-soul subsequently, while coming to grips with the-horrific-reality. Don't expect for it to-occur overnight, but it eventually to-happen. As you wake-up one day to-realise that you've been-fed-nothing trustworthy, but diabolically concocted lies within-the-utter chutzpah-propaganda by the Zionist clutches. Who programmed you to-carry-on their hideous Zionist meme and spread it like-a-viral infection.

The truth began dawning on me after prolong stay-in-Israel. While there, I witnessed the impact that an-extreme-religious-right has in Israel. Essentially, capable to trigger an armageddon within the Middle-Eastern region. Where radically indoctrinated religious zealots indulging themselves in-shutting-down a whole-country via violent stand-offs, if they don't-get-their-way. It doesn't take much to-provoke-them just-an-aeroplane flying overhead or an-ambulance taking-a-shortcut via Hassidic neighbourhood on the Sabbath.

Yet moreover disturbing was to-witness-the-way-in-which the Falasha-Jews of Ethiopia were treated in Israel. Contrary to the multicultural fanfare spin in how the humanitarian-Israeli-junta was able to get them out of Ethiopia into-national Jewish-home. Then these very same Ethiopian-Jews were treated afterwards like-a-second-class-citizens (if not for Palestinian conflict's deflection, a civil war between ashke-Nazim and Sephardic Jews was imminent).
Posted by Leo Braun, Friday, 21 July 2006 2:37:42 PM
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Mind you, the radical Orthodox-Jews don't even consider Falasha-Jews of Ethiopia to-be true-Jews, since they've been cut-off from the mainstream-Judaism for-so-long. Though if anything, the way the Falashas practice Judaism, is actually closer to the original than-anyone-else. Yet that's conveniently being ignored by the domineering Orthodox-Jews, who hold all the reigns-of-power in the Israeli-junta-subjugated-nation.

Needless-to-mention that Falashas are black, what-only-fuels the racist flames, profoundly burning in the supremacist Israel. Where I've personally witnessed-a-group of Hasidic Jews throwing rocks at a group of Falashas. As these young Hasidic Jews were calling them "schwartzas" in yiddish for blacks, in-an-attempt to-drive them away from praying at the Western-Wall. Yet nearby Israeli-police-did-absolutely-nothing (this-is-more-typical there, than one might think).

Also, Falashas are relegated to-hold the jobs, no-one else wants. The lucky ones make some money at fixing cars, but most live-in-poverty. That's the other thing, divisions between the extremely rich and very poor in Israel, are profoundly wide. Lots of poor neighbourhoods in the big cities with-a-high crime-rate are just like in the corrupted US (stemming-to-black-panthers). Its no Jewish utopia in Israel, but a hell, where accommodation-rents are outrageously high and overall cost-of-living is skyrocketing.

Most-of-poor Israelis tend to-be either Falashas or Sephardic-Jews of Middle-Eastern or Nth-African descent. There is a definite-racist-bias, based on origins and the most crucially, skin-colour. As wealthy privileged Jews tend to be ashke-Nazim of European descent, besides their arrived counterparts from America. Who are living in a sheer opulence on settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.

In reflection on disenfranchised minorities way-of-life, rendered to survive in Israeli land of plenty, on a meagre subsistence. Where Druze mountain people (who have been living for centuries in the Golan Heights), became displaced by the various wars that have taken place. While their Druze counterparts living in Lebanon, who sided with and served Israelis during 80's onslaught, were double-crossed subsequently and left to-fend-for-themselves against the Hezbollah, Shiite Amal and Christian Phlangists alike. Who used Druze inhabitants as a cannon-fodder or for target practices.
Posted by Leo Braun, Friday, 21 July 2006 2:39:30 PM
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Dee

“'Imperialist~crusades';~'colonised~by~Western~Imperialsim'~

When~a~person~uses~this~kind~of~language~I~know~that~further~communication~is~a~waste~of~time~for~us~both.~“

What “kind of language” are you talking about. Do you not know what imperialism and colonisation are? Have you never heard of the British Empire? Do you not realise Australia was a British colony? Many Western nations engaged in imperialism and colonisation – the French, Germans, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese etc. Generally and simplistically, that means that they imposed their own religious, political and economic systems on other peoples against their will and by force in order to exploit human and natural resources and create markets for their own products. Do you deny such historical facts?

"~..facts~you~conveniently~dismiss~in~your~“genuine~debate”."

”I~didnt~know~we~were~discussing~the~effect~of~western~civilisation~on~indigenous~people.~I~thought~we~were~discussing~the~dangers~of~large~scale~Islamic~immigration~on~western~civilisation.”

Actually this thread is about lies and propaganda being used as a pretext for war, discussion about Islamic immigration is somewhat of a digression itself.

However, the point that I was making, which you seem to refuse to acknowledge, is that our so-called Western “freedom and democracy” is built on the oppression and destruction of foreign indigenous populations, not to mention the exploitation of its own “western” workers, through the use of violence, or threat of violence. Again, do you deny such historical facts? At the risk of being accused of “lame moral equivalency” it is a bit rich for Westerners to claim the moral high ground (as you appear to do) when our history is littered with the corpses of those individuals and communities that couldn’t withstand the onslaught. (Of course a distinction must be made between the average everyday person and the ruling elite, but that will have to wait for another time.} You say everywhere Muslims go there is violence, I say there already was. Do you dispute this?

"~..~many~factors~..~which~contribute~to~someone~going~so~far~as~to~strap~explosives~to~their~body~and~blow~themselves~to~smithereens~taking~others~with~them.'

This~action~appears~to~be~carried~out~solely~by~Muslims,~encouraged~by~radical~clerics~using~the~koran~as~justification.~Muslims~are~not~the~only~'oppressed'~people~in~the~world~but~they~are~the~only~ones~carrying~out~suicide~bombings.”

I do not dispute that fundamentalist Islam is a particularly reactionary ideology which is a huge contributing factor to suicide attacks. However from all accounts from moderate Muslims, it is a bastardization of Islam. We should also be asking ourselves what drives people to the point of embracing such an ideology in the first place – and the answers will be more complex than just “ideology”.

continued.....
Posted by tao, Saturday, 22 July 2006 11:01:47 AM
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.....continued from above

If someone you knew joined a cult, you would ask “why?” If someone you knew committed suicide, you would ask “why?” If someone you knew committed murder, you would ask “why?” Muslims are just as human as you and I, have the same basic needs and desires as you and I, and are just as capable of being “good” or “evil”.

I’m sure to you, your “facts” and statistics support your beliefs, however I fundamentally disagree with the conclusions you draw and the solution you propose. I certainly don’t condone terrorism, and I don’t agree with any religion, let alone extremist versions of them, however I defend any person’s fundamental rights to exist, find safe haven, obtain sufficient food, shelter, clothing, medical care and education for their children, freedom and free speech, regardless of their beliefs (and regardless of whether they misguidedly believe I should be denied such things) and in whatever “country” they choose. Should I support any regime (including our own government) that denies such fundamental rights to any individual, religious or ethnic group, it is a short road to that regime denying such things of me. I believe we are already on that road.

The history of the Middle East, and of Islam, is a part of human history i.e. your history, and it is up us as humans to understand and solve the problems, not just isolate our selves from what we label as “evil”. As humans we have the ability to do so. As I said to coach earlier in this thread “the solution (simplistically due to word limits) is for average working class Christians, Muslims, Jews and members of all religions (and atheists) to recognize that they have more in common with each other than they do with their rulers and religious leaders, and that it is those leaders who are causing the wars, poverty and misery. They must then remove their leaders from power and reorganize society on the basis of human need, not profit.”
Posted by tao, Saturday, 22 July 2006 11:05:34 AM
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Dee ... "Do you hate Zionism or do you hate everyone who believes in it - which would obviously be every Jew living in Israel and the majority of Jews living in other countries"? Sarcastically poised his devious question sly-dee, because being a Tzioni (zionist) meant in Hebrew to every Jew child as being a patriot! Due to-profound-ingenuity-knack in-the-linked ZIONIST IMPERIALISM with the-sly-coined word Tzioni = Patriot. Hebrew songs are virtually saturated with a 'Tzioni' lingo to indoctrinate every-Jew-child by the elders-of-zion dogma.

This is indisputable fact, which has been known to the sly-dee, bent-to-carrel gullible-suckers intellect. By someone who-claims to-speak on-behalf of ..."every Jew living in Israel and the majority of Jews living in other countries"... Yeah in a typical Zionist chutzpah style, behind his silver-tongued prowess and slight-of-hand intrigued machinations to-ambush-brutally our truthful Jew-lesser brethren. Culminating in the heinous murder of my besieged-father (Michal) Moszek Tenenbaum in Poland by-the-barbarous elders-of-zion, just for speaking my mind for the better Australia.

Not since-the-witness Nazi-bestiality, the majority moral-humans-worldwide are horrified to-face Zionist barbarism perpetuation as-norm for-39-years in the occupied Palestinian territories of the West-Bank and Gaza. Whilst-blood-drenched Zionist psychopaths continue their fanatical drive for-a-greater eretz-Israel. Utilising always a same-old pattern-of-lies as-a-pretext for-war. As-they indulged-in-plotting-further with US neocons against the Syria and Iran. Ensuing diabolical warmongers blitz on the sovereign Lebanon. In reflection on-decades-long Zionist skirmishes with Hezbollah, as-routinely was-shelled the-land in-a-few Druze villages.

Where petrified dwellers for years remained straddled in no-mans-land, within Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese borders region. Likewise the Bedouin tribes that roamed-a-more hospitable parts-of the-Sinai-desert for centuries, faced now equally awful treatment from Israelis and the Egyptians alike, while being harassed and intimidated by the border patrols. Ultimately as Bedouins in the-Israeli-outback, were forced-to-give-up their-nomadic-lifestyle, while being herded into-a-shabby Zionist-amelioration-projects.

Lastly, the Christian minorities in Israel, such as Syrian Orthodox, Greek, Armenian, Chaldean Christians and Coptics endured sporadically carried-out harsh escapades (especially Palestinian Christians). Who have shrines and churches in Jerusalem, which are subject to-random searches. This is all quite-a-routine there, though it doesn't make a 'Western-Press' to-take-notice-about. Then when it does, it's being buried between the articles (unless-being-scrapped-altogether).
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 22 July 2006 3:46:16 PM
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Dee ... "See? I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong - so anyone who feels 'offended' by my objection to cut and paste anti-Semitic diatribes and very offensive racial slurs (no matter who wrote them) - consider yourself apologised to"... declared despicable disinfo-blabbermouth (prone-to-shoot-himself in-a-foot). So why don't you make yourself-a-favour to Google: 'anti-Zionist Jews' or 'Jews against Zionism' (instead-of-cluttering-OLO-bandwidth).

At-the-time when-Jew-lesser brethren are deeply-troubled by Palestinians tragedy. As-a-result some-secular (non-zionst) Jews-in-Israel and abroad supported local and international peace-movements towards the creation-of-a-free and sovereign Palestine. Yet the radical Orthodox-Jews will-have none-of-it (recall who-killed Yitzhak-Rabin). They have an-iron-grip over the Israel's junta, besides agitating as-norm fundamentalist-settlers. Who having-strong-ties with the Zionist-Christian right in the US (totally-power-mad within the creed-of-creed hegemony).

Most-of-readers are-likely-already to-know that under such-a-fastidious religion-set-values Israel turned into-a-hotbed-of-corruption, unparalleled in the history-of-the-modern nation-states. Headed by the sacrosanct Israel as-a-centre for slave-trade, drugs, prostitution, investment-chicanery, banking rip-offs, money-laundering and blood-diamonds-trade. Coexistent via strong ties with Russian-Jews-Mafia, whose oligarch-affiliates take advantage of the Israel's sly-crafted Law-of-Return. Utilised "to-convert" expediently Russian-Jew-mobsters, to-Judaism.

What-a-hypocrisy? So that they can set-up-a-shop in Israel (which won't extradite them), whilst no Palestinian to-have any-right-of-return to their homeland. Where Israeli Mossad have-a-close-ties with expeditionary death-squads to-get our Jew-lesser brethren, unless hit-man being too busy in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Besides subjugated Africa, Central and Sth-America, to endure Zionist sown calamities. To culminate with-a-huge part-played in Iran-Contra plot (global-arms-market). This is not-a-religion or a mindset, that I want any part of. It sickens me to know that fanatical Zionists would label me as a "self-hating" Jew, for daring to question anything having to-do-with the Zionist crimes committed against the humanity.

Which-is-precisely why I am so emphatically opposed-to it. I cannot-abide-any of the above-mentioned atrocities taking-place in-my-name. Judaism, Zionism and Israel's junta-dogma are so-intertwined-now, that if you question one-aspect, you invariably wind-up in-having to-question the others. Paradoxically, so-much-idolised by Zionists their-highly-revered Albert-Einstein was extremely wary-of-Zionism. Adamantly opposed-to the Zionist creation of an-exclusively Jewish national-home, nonetheless-erected over-dead-bodies. Whilst the lingered for nearly 60 years Palestinian survivors-in-refugee camps reached three millions and double that number endured in the diaspora.
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 22 July 2006 3:47:46 PM
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Tao – When people mention ‘imperialism’ and ‘colonialism’ in the sole context of the West or the British Empire (when world history is replete with totalitarian empires) I assume that I’m in for a lecture on Evil Whitey and the harm we have caused.

There have been imperialist empires since the dawn of history – most were founded by non-Europeans. You say that Western civilization is built on violence but what civilisation is not? The empires of the Incas and Aztecs were despotic to a point we can scarcely imagine; Islamic invaders forced the defeated to convert at swordpoint and killed those who refused; the empires of Africa were unbelievably cruel – the image of King Gezo of Dahomey eating dinner in front of his death-house while watching victims being cut to pieces is a good example. For a civilization ‘built on violence and threat’ the Western world appears to be overwhelmingly attractive to Asians, Middle-Easterners etc, who are fleeing to the West in record numbers. Although we certainly have our faults, Western civilization is the best on offer.

'..whatever “country” they choose'

The obvious reason why they all choose the West is that our society can provide a superior way of life to the countries they have left. The West cannot accept a never-ending stream of refugees and immigrants – unless of course, we wish to obliterate ourselves. The problems of Middle Eastern countries (and others) will not be solved by exporting people wholesale to the West.

‘ from all accounts from moderate Muslims’

'Moderate Muslims' solve nothing, they have no power against the extremists. In Bankstown Town Hall in April this year, Islamist speakers claimed the “overriding commitment of a Muslim” was not to Australia but “Allah and Allah alone” – that attitude seems to me to be the prevalent one. Vile people such as Trad and al-Hilaly are in positions of leadership in the Muslim community; hate literature is on sale in Islamic bookshops; 'clerics' preach jihad and hatred in Sydney mosques - when are these famed 'moderate Muslims' going to protest?
Posted by dee, Saturday, 22 July 2006 8:38:03 PM
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Dee,

“Tao-–-When-people-mention-‘imperialism’-and-‘colonialism’-in-the-sole-context-of-the-West-or-the-British-Empire-(when-world-history-is-replete-with-totalitarian-empires)-I-assume-that-I’m-in-for-a-lecture-on-Evil-Whitey-and-the-harm-we-have-caused.”

Yet you appear to be entirely comfortable with giving lectures on the Evil Muslim and the harm they have caused. What you attempt to do is present the phenomenon out of context. Not only is this incorrect, but also you have double standards. You want to put the West’s imperialism in the context of history, but you don’t allow Muslim extremism to be viewed in the same context.

“The-obvious-reason-why-they-all-choose-the-West-is-that-our-society-can-provide-a-superior-way-of-life-to-the-countries-they-have-left.” Yes, fortunately for us at present we do have a superior way of life, built on the direct or indirect exploitation and oppression and of those peoples who are now fleeing.

“The-West-cannot-accept-a-never-ending-stream-of-refugees-and-immigrants-–-unless-of-course,-we-wish-to-obliterate-ourselves.” Then perhaps those people should not be forced to accept the never-ending stream of Western capitalists and opportunists and war-mongers coming in to extract wealth from them, leaving them little in return.

“The-problems-of-Middle-Eastern-countries-(and-others)-will-not-be-solved-by-exporting-people-wholesale-to-the-West.” I did not say they would.

If in, this age of globalization, capital is free to move without restriction across national boundaries, and the US and the other major capitalist countries are now not required to respect “National Sovereignty” in for example the Baltic States, Afghanistan and Iraq (and of course currently US backed Israel in Lebanon), or obey “International Law”, why should people be restricted in their movements?

You talk about vile hate-preaching Muslim leadership. I consider John Howard, George Bush et al to be vile and hate-preaching, and no different from Osama Bin Laden, except that they have the power and authority of the “state” and the world’s financial elite behind them. They send their foot soldiers to do their dirty work, just as OBL sends his foot soldiers to carry out suicide attacks.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 23 July 2006 1:09:14 PM
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Leo,

I too thought dee’s apology was a little half-hearted to say the least. In fact, the “profound” apology turned into a slap in the face. Devious and sly were apt descriptions on your part. Despite her claim to be admitting when she is wrong, she actually used it to reinforce and justify her own prejudices and behaviour. Obviously to dee, everyone who is anti-Zionist must be anti-Semitic. Just as everyone who is Muslim must be a hate-preaching, crime-committing, murdering, raping, terrorist ingrate.

Thanks for the google tip. It was interesting to see the amount of Jewish opposition to Israel – obviously even some orthodox Jews.

You might be interested in checking out this article http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/leba-j21.shtml, and indeed the whole website www.wsws.org for thorough news and analysis on the Middle East and everywhere.

Dee,

An interesting site I found after Leo’s suggested search was that of an American Jew, Eduardo Cohen, who traveled to Israel and Palestine to investigate human rights abuses http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/palestine/eduardoCohen.html

Some selected quotes for you:

“I-experienced-some-of-the-frustration-that-Palestinians-must-be-feeling-when-I-interviewed-numerous-Jewish-American-settlers-in-the-West-Bank-during-the-Persian-Gulf-War.-Many-of-those-I-spoke-with-were-from-New-York-and,-talking-about-Arabs,-spouted-some-of-the-most-hateful,-racist-diatribes-that-I-had-ever-heard.-I-was-reminded-of-the-racism-against-Black-Americans-that-I-witnessed-growing-up-in-the-American-South.“

“Clearly-there-are-virulently-racist-elements-within-the-greater-Palestinian-community...-but-I-found-a-real-difference-between-Israeli-racism-against-Arabs,-based-on-a-feeling-of-racial-superiority,-and-Palestinian-hatred-of-Jews-which-is-an-understandable-Palestinian-response-to-the-policies-of-the-Jewish-government-of-Israel-and-a-continuing-Jewish-occupation.”

“I-still-remember-the-amazement-of-Palestinians-there-when-they-learned-that-I-was-a-Jew-investigating-human-rights-abuses-by-the-Israeli-military-and-I-was-moved-by-how-quickly-I-was-invited-into-their-homes-to-share-tea-with-them.-And-I-will-never-forget-the-tears-of-appreciation-streaming-down-the-cheeks-of-so-many-Palestinians-who-were-so-genuinely-happy-to-meet-a-Jew-who-simply-saw-them-as-human-beings-and-as-equals-and-who-was-willing-to-acknowledge-their-suffering-and-listen-to-their-side-of-the-conflict.-The-only-Jews-they-had-ever-seen-in-their-villages-were-soldiers-there-to-assert-Israeli-control."

"Far-away-from-any-Israeli-protection,-in-the-heart-of-areas-controlled-by-Hamas,-I-felt-no-danger-whatsoever.-It-was-difficult-to-return-to-Tel-Aviv-and-talk-to-Jews-who-would-never-allow-an-Arab-to-set-foot-in-their-homes,-except-perhaps-to-clean-them,-and-who-would-explain-to-me-with-no-doubt-in-their-minds-that-it-was-impossible-to-reason-with-Arabs-because-they-didn't-share-the-same-faculties-of-thought-and-reason-that-"civilized-human-beings"-possess.-I-left-with-the-sharp-impression-that-anti-Arab-racism-in-Israeli-society-was-the-much-greater-obstacle-to-peace.-And-the-evidence-indicates-that,-ten-years-later,-it-hasn't-changed.“

So it appears that Islamic people aren’t the only people spreading hate and using violence, and it appears that Palestinians and Muslims are human after all.

Here also is a list of US action in the Middle East: http://www.zmag.org/shalomhate.htm entitled" Why do "They" hate us?
Posted by tao, Sunday, 23 July 2006 1:20:58 PM
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• Dee ..."I find it odd that our resident-Jew-hater Leo Braun has been seemingly given a free-pass to spout his bile"..."So why no condemnation of Leo's psychotic hatred of Jews? Even if the translator renders Leo's language into-nonsense, the underlying venom is loud-n-clear"... Declared malicious-disinfo-blabbermouth without having elementary decency to-divulge about the aristocratic Jew-ruling-class exploits across the history to-the detriment Jew-lesser brethren.

When a deeper analysis of the macabre dilemma to attest that it's wrong to lump all the Jews together with the evil fanaticism, that supremacist Zionism has come to represent. Masqueraded via almighty chosen elite of the high morality virtues, versus long history of the born to rule Jew tyrants. Eager always to dispense Jew violence as the only tradition they ever had. In reflection on the merciless Zionist-Kapo crimes and frankenstein monstrosity perpetrated by the Nazi veiled Judeo Medicos in diabolical concentration camps. Outperformed solely by their Nazi proxies within WWII committed crimes against the humanity.

Where instead of Zionism being hope of the Jews, collateral blood of the Jew-lesser brethren became the political salvation of diabolical Zionism. Depicted by the world Jewry acclaimed witnesses to Auschwitz atrocities and Buchenwald horrors. In reflection on the tribal Jew bestiality within the evilly spiced and many millenniums old, the internecine Jew violence. Which afflicted Jew-race splinter group, when even children of our patriarchs quarrelled so incessantly. Was it merely an accident that Cain and Abel, the first two brothers of the Bible were murderer and victim?

Pondered Elie Wiesel as he wrote that his ability to deny supremacist Zionists evil unleashed against the Jew-lesser brethren ended with the Altalena incident. As it never occurred to him to know that Zionist perpetrators might be capable of spilling Jew blood. More so waging a war by the supremacist Zionist renegades on the ordinary Jews, and surely not on Jews, who refused to fight back. Such was a case of Altalena, so incomprehensible tragedy of the ship loaded with nearing a thousand of WWII refugees. So many ghetto survivors on board Altalena, which approached Tel Aviv shore under the rival Zionist-Irgun command.
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 23 July 2006 4:24:43 PM
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Whilst the infant Israeli Hagana junta containing young Zionist officers included a shy as he was, yet staunch Yitzhak Rabin. Who surely carried out Ben-Gurion orders to fire on ghetto survivors, so utterly defenceless men, women and children. Sinking thus Altalena with a massive loss of the innocent Jew-lives. Just because of a ship to carry also some arms, donated by French ruling Jewry to Zionist Irgun terrorists. Thus rendering an utterly diabolical, Zionist bestiality act, compounded immensely by the prolonged agony. Unleashed on the Jew-lesser brethren, who had a glimpse of an ultimate hope to face some joy of life in a highly acclaimed safe haven of the colonised eretz Israel.

Instead their pulsing with a hope of life bodies were mercilessly reduced into lifeless, fragmented remains. Just of bones and torn flesh consequences. Perpetrated in a cold blood by dehumanised Zionists on those to survive demonic WWII horrors. So where reigns Zionist fascism (which not stopped), it cannot evaporate but to grow. Perpetually filling even the vacuum cells via professed supremacist rule motto: Should Anyone Be Ever Absent From Us ... He Will Be Then Against Us! Thus having aristocratic elders-of-zion echelon-masters throughout the millenniums firmly to place their bets each way, they always to score the cuckoo-nest incubated Jew winners world-wide. Impersonating an exclusive tyrant entity breed of the limitless significance. Assuring thus global apartheid via fait-accompli elimination regimes.

Starting right from a kindergarten via compulsory schooling and cultivated universities buffers, it to yield an ample of disposable Zionist puppets. Accompanied over the years with connived referees issued clandestine dossiers as norm. No wonder the imbeciles lot to be nurtured with a carte blanche, whilst incorruptible souls of the moral citizens to endure devious wrath. Still so many of ill informed minds failed even to realise what hit them indeed. Without expecting in the wildest dream to face such a nightmare of the utterly insidious act to be unleashed on us!
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 23 July 2006 4:32:12 PM
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Leo Braun re ‘half-hearted apology’. My words:

‘I realise that some Jews are anti-Israel and disagree with many actions of the Israeli government, but the language you use goes far beyond simple disagreement.’

If you had read this reply, you wouldn’t accuse me of confusing anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. You can be as anti-Zionist as you like (it’s a free country) and I am well aware that many Jews worldwide disagree with the actions of Israel. My objection was the actual language you used – ‘JewNazi’ etc. which I find quite offensive. The fact that these terms are used about Jews by a Jewish person does not lessen the fact that this kind of language is very distasteful.

‘there-are-virulently-racist-elements-within-the-greater-Palestinian-community...’

I believe that you heard many hateful diatribes from Israelis but it would be hard to beat the Palestinians for sheer virulent hatred. The custom of teaching small children bloodthirsty hate-songs and poems (which also happens in Saudi Arabia) is not carried out in Israeli schools (so far as I know) – there was a particularly revolting video from Egyptian national television recently featuring a ‘religious teacher’ interviewing children about their attitude to Jews and coaching them to give hateful responses – I’m sure even you would have been repulsed.

I find it difficult to muster much sympathy for a culture where a song called ‘I Hate Israel’ is the top of the hit parade.
Posted by dee, Sunday, 23 July 2006 8:44:20 PM
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Tao – “ I consider John Howard, George Bush …no different from Osama Bin Laden’

I really don’t know how to respond to a comparison between elected leaders of the Western world and a cave-dwelling head-chopper and arch hypocrite (this devout Muslim used to drink and chase cheap blondes, as I’m sure you know). Since we live in a democracy, its your privilege to compare our PM with Islamic terrorists who torture helpless civilian captives and then behead them. I hope you never indulge in this level of outspokeness in the kind of society bin Laden wished to inflict upon us - but no, wait, it will be ok to diss Islam in a Muslim country because 'there is no difference' -

‘but you don’t allow Muslim extremism to be viewed in the same context'.

On the contrary, I most certainly view Islamic extremism in the context of history. From the time of Mohammed, Islamic history has been one long invasion and subjection of non-Muslims – The Middle East, Persia, North Africa were all conquered by jihad. Europe was next on the list, but the Islamic invaders were finally defeated at Vienna in 1683. There is nothing much different about modern Muslim terrorism:

Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), jurist (Maliki), renowned philosopher, historian, and sociologist, summarized these consensus opinions from five centuries of prior Sunni Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad:

'In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.'

So what has changed?
Posted by dee, Sunday, 23 July 2006 8:51:58 PM
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• As a consequence of the rational Tao-uttered climax sensation due to attained an-access to the infinite source of the websites engaged in the perpetual struggle against the Zionist Imperialism, guilty-of-war crimes and usurpation of an entire Jewish race -- the commonsense logic dictates now on the genuinely predisposed OLO forum users to-adopt likewise exploratory approach, utilising Google search for 'anti-Zionist Jews' or 'Jews against Zionism' in the first instance, before launching vitriolic attacks on the Jew-lesser brethren.

As any-such underhand retaliation ploys onslaught by the Zionist zealots will-not-be tolerated. Needless to-stress an-importance in having OLO forum mod's assured Jew dissidents (frequenting this unique participatory-democracy site) of our prerogative to-speak freely against the Zionist Imperialism. Which survived this long, due to-increasingly conniving culture under pathological deceit proliferation. Profoundly equipped with the intellectual lingo-arsenal, versus amateurish Jew dissidents. As 21st century internet-forums became infested with the exceptionally skilled charlatans (apt-to-play both sides of the coin against each other).

Watch for the notorious anti-social thugs on the Zionist payroll, noted to-juggle in pairs around-the-clock, under revolved aliases cast, for the sole purpose to drive humble Jews into unthinking conformity. Evidently as an-increasingly conniving culture of pathological deceit attached itself to what passes for political ideologies expediency. To use term "ideology" is gilding the lily, for it appears that the devious Zionist standard, is to-be loose with the truth. Set to mislead, to misrepresent and generally try to delude any-naive and submissive fools in subjugated community.

Courtesy of the lingered colonialist relics of a bloody diabolical sphere under global echelon's hegemony, Noted for the Zionist get-square mentality, the actions of which are in a stark contrast with the civil society moral-tenets. Where the way to handle a Jew dissident who laid a glove on the Zionist establishment, was to get such a battler back with even a harder right. Leaving thus a bloody trail of the Zionist henchmen hit innocent Jew victims. Culminating in the heinous murder of my besieged father (Michal) Moszek Tenenbaum in Poland, just for speaking my mind for the better Australia.
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 24 July 2006 6:19:28 PM
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• Tao your diligent input has been much appreciated, however once having tackled an-initial hurdle just to-appreciate the magnitude of ...'anti-Zionist Jews'... 'Jews against Zionism'... impending tsunami, you ought to-persevere a bit-longer to-tackle the colossal scale of the master connivers chutzpah continuum to the detriment of the humankind. In the meantime please examine (1979) evidence presented to the Australian Broadcasting Tribunal Inquiry into Melbourne Community Radio Station 3CR by the Jews Against Zionism (group based in Melbourne, Australia).

1. INTRODUCTION TO ZION-NAZI COLLABORATION

2. JEWISH COMMUNITY REACTIONS

2.1 Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism
2.2 How Zionists stir up hostility to 3CR
2.3 How Zionist misrepresentation of 3CR can be effective

3. WHAT IS ZION-NAZI COLLABORATION?

4. HANNA ARENDT

4.1 Zionist emigration and Gestapo expulsion
4.2 The Jewish Councils
4.3 The Zionist response to Arendt
4.4 The campaign backfires

5. THE KASTNER CASE

5.1 Introduction
5.2 The accusations
5.3 The verdict
5.4 The reaction
5.5 The majority judgement
5.6 The minority judgement
5.7 Conclusion

6. THE BACKGROUND TO ZION-NAZI COLLABORATION

6.1 Failure to support resistance
6.2 Extremist Zionists and the Axis
6.3 The Haganah reports to Eichmann
6.4 Zionist priorities during the Holocaust
6.5 Suppressing the news
6.6 Zionist leaders admit inactivity
6.7 A message Zionist leaders ignored
6.8 Other Zionists accuse
6.9 The very existence of the 'Jewish Agency' helped the Nazis

7. CLOSING THE DOORS

7.1 Britain
7.2 The USA
7.3 Sweden
7.4 Selectivity
7.5 Australia

8. A DELIBERATE, CONSISTENT, AND SUCCESSFUL POLICY

8.1 Choosing between the Jews and the Jewish State
8.2 The Jewish Agency murders Jewish refugees
8.3 Continuing Zionist threats to Jews
8.4 A successful policy
8.5 Honourable human behaviour and the State of Israel

9. BETRAYAL IN THE GHETTOES

9.1 Jakob Gens
9.2 Most collaborators were Zionists
9.3 Only the Zionist Parties collaborated

10. ZIONISM IN GERMANY

10.1 Opposing the boycott
10.2 Endorsing Nazi racialist philosophy
10.3 Ammunition for Nazi Anti-Semitism
10.4 Assistance from the Gestapo
10.5 Zionist takeover of the Jewish community

11. CONCLUSION

11.1 Zionist enthusiasm about the Holocaust
11.2 Is Rabbi Shonfeld also 'offensive'?
11.3 Internationalism versus self-hatred

SOURCE ... http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzccontents
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 24 July 2006 6:26:45 PM
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Leo,

I just wanted to thank you. I have read the entire submission and will do so again.

I have never been able to understand why “Jews” who suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis, could in turn perpetrate such atrocities on the Palestinians.

I realise now that the “Zionists” themselves, were not only anti-Semitic (towards what they perceived were their ‘lesser Jewish brethren’), but had a policy which was to effectively sacrifice the Jewish masses to increase pressure on the powers that be to grant an Israeli state in Palestine, and that they were willing collaborators in the Nazis’ plan in order to further that cause. Not only did they know that the exterminations were being carried out, they actively kept it from the rest of the world and discouraged other nations from taking Jewish refugees.

It makes more sense to me now that those who could behave in such a way toward their own “brethren” would have no compunction about the misery and destruction they have caused for the millions of Palestinians who must, in their eyes, be less than human. It also helps to explain the preponderance of racist thinking among Israelis – because they were the Zionists’ preferred type of people.

It is also interesting that, in order to support their calls for an Israeli state, they perpetuated the myth that Jews could not be assimilated which, of course, was no different to the Nazi belief. It seems that we still haven’t learnt that such ideas, propagated about any race or creed, are completely wrong and lead us down the slippery slope to barbarism.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 25 July 2006 8:13:19 PM
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Dee,

“it would-be-hard-to-beat-the-Palestinians-for-sheer-virulent-hatred” Yes, let’s play mine is bigger than yours – a very useful tactic in your version of “genuine debate”. By the tone of your posts you are consumed by some sheer-virulent-hatred yourself.

“I-find-it-difficult-to-muster-much-sympathy”. No-one is asking for sympathy, just rational thought.

“its-your-privilege-to-compare-our-PM-with-Islamic-terrorists-who-torture-helpless-civilian-captives-and-then-behead-them”. How about a PM who, based on lies, takes us into an illegal aggressive war which has resulted in thousands of “helpless civilian” deaths, the rape of teenage girls, torture in Abu Ghraib, destruction of essential infrastructure and the razing of whole suburbs? Let us not forget the use of depleted uranium in weapons which results in increased incidence of birth defects and childhood cancer. The man should be tried for war crimes - Nazis were tried for the similar things. No doubt as a defence he'll claim he didn't know - his stock answer when anything goes wrong. And, funnily enough, he has gaven Arabs and Muslims EVEN MORE REASON TO HATE US! (sorry about the shouting, no italics) .

So what if Islam has a “universal mission”? Haven’t you noticed that the most powerful (and possibly stupid) man in the world, in charge of the most powerful military machine in the world, believes that the Christian God tells him what to do? Like invade Iraq. I think it is much more dangerous that the US ruling elite is dismantling and repressing democratic rights at home, ignoring international conventions, and engaging in unilateral militarism to achieve its geopolitical goals. And what do you know – it’s a predominantly CHRISTIAN country and the Christian right wing is gaining more and more power. And this stupid man has his finger on the nuclear button! And you think a few Islamic extremists are going to do more damage than that. What a joke!
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 25 July 2006 11:51:07 PM
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• Tao, you should be real-proud of yourself, and you will be more-so, once your dedicated probe to-lead you finally to-realise that diabolical elders-of-zion spun ultra-nationalistic-fury across the Europe in 1930's ultimately uprooted our expendable Jew-lesser brethren to Palestine. Not before awesome Germany for its tenacious, proud people was chosen precisely for the bloodbath, with its sons as executioners. Destined to-be ravaged as-a-result, debilitated and demoralised for generations to come!

Yet aren't currently right-now being-duped-likewise so massively impenetrable the American people in-turn? Are they destined to-face the reality after-the-fact? Are we to-revisit moreover of bloody calamities in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and Iran? Just to suss it out, so uniquely typical kind of the hereditary endowed psychopathic savagery. Capable to unleash plan B avian-flu epidemic, should they face major jeopardy. As a crisis invoked emergency powers around the globe to drive petrified populous into quarantine-camps (for their own good).

To understand full-implications extent in-reflection on the diabolical-evolution, you got-to look-back-a-little. To see what-has happened-a-couple of millenniums ago. When you were an-innocent care-free pagan goyim race. You worshipped your countless gods and goddesses, the spirits of-the-air, of the running-streams and of the-woodland. You took unblushing pride in the glory of your-naked-bodies. You carved images of your gods and of the tantalizing human figure.

You delighted in the combats of the field, the arena and the battleground. Disporting yourselves on the hillsides and in-the-valleys of the great outdoors. You even took to-speculating on the wonder-and-mystery of life, while laying foundations of the natural-science and philosophy. Yours was-a-noble, sensual-culture, unirked by the prickings of the social conscience or by any sentimental questionings about-human-equality.

Who knows what-a-great and glorious destiny might have been yours? If we had-left-you alone! But we did-not leave you alone. We took you in-hand and pulled down the beautiful and generous structure you had reared, and changed the whole course-of-your history. We conquered you as no-empire of yours ever subjugated Africa-or-Asia. And we did-it-all clandestinely behind-the-scene, without-tracer-bullets, without our blue-blood or turmoil to-be faced by us, without diabolical forces of any kind to-be ever attributed to us.
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 27 July 2006 12:18:29 PM
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We did it solely by the irresistible jewanderthal might of our spirit, with our great ideas and awesome propaganda. We made you goyim the willing and unconscious bearers of our jewanderthal mission to the whole world, to the barbarous races of the world, to the countless unborn generations. Without fully understanding what we jewanderthals were doing to your-goy-tribes, you became the agents-at-large of our racial tradition, carrying our jewvoracious modus-operandi gospel to unexplored ends of the earth.

Our tribal jewanderthal customs have become the core of your-moral-code. Our tribal-laws have furnished the basic groundwork of all your concocted-constitutions and westminster parliamentary system. Our jewanderthal legends and our folk-tales are the sacred-lore which you still-croon to your goy-n-shiksa infants. Our jewanderthal poets have filled your hymnals and your-prayer-books.

Our national jewanderthal history has become an-indispensable part of learning via your judeo-pastors, judeo-priests and judeo-scholars. Our judeo-kings, our zionist statesmen, our judeo prophets and our jewanderthal warriors are your heroes. Our ancient jewanderthal petite-enclave of the movers-n-shakers is your Holy-Land. Our national judeo-literature is your Holy Bible.

What our jewanderthal masters thought and taught has-become inextricable woven-into your very speech and tradition, until no-one among you can-be called educated, who is not being familiar with our racial heritage. Jew-artisans and jew-fishermen are your teachers and your saints, with countless statues carved in jewanderthal's image. As innumerable cathedrals raised to the judeo-memories. A jew-maiden is your-ideal of motherhood-and-womanhood. A jew-rebel-prophet is the central-figure in your-religious-worship.

Last but-not-least, we've pulled-down your pagan-idols, cast-aside your racial-inheritance, and substituted them with-our-god and our-traditions. No conquest in-history of the humankind can even-remotely-compare with-a-such clean-sweep of our conquest-over-you. No wonder-it-still remained so-utterly perplexing for many. Would you like me to repeat it again ... how did we do it? Or you rather to view an-insignia of the zionist-menorah ... http://ericmatic.free.fr/sitefolder/images/houserepresentative_JPG.jpg

Alternatively some might prefer to view original version parody, first published in The Century Magazine by Marcus Eli Ravage, in January 1928. It never meant for derogatory manners acrimony, under racist-provocateur-exploits. As well-informed testimonies shared-by-me ... is all-about what's best for Australian civil-society-future and global-humanity on-a-whole.
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 27 July 2006 12:25:42 PM
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'By the tone of your posts you are consumed by some sheer-virulent-hatred yourself.’

I state the fact that Palestinian children are taught hatred from the time they are old enough to speak, yet *I* am the one with the hate problem. Palestinian children - from toddlers onward - are regularly photographed holding weapons and chanting songs about Jews being the sons of ape and swine (which they learn at school) yet *I* am the one with the hate problem. Figures!

‘ .. EVEN MORE REASON TO HATE US!’

‘Oh don’t do anything to make them hate us!’ Classic appeasement. Australia was identified as an enemy long before the Iraq war. Bin Laden stated that Australia had been ‘warned’ not to interfere in East Timor.

'It [Australia] ignored the warning until it woke up to the sounds of explosions in Bali’.

‘So what if Islam has a “universal mission”?’

So what if this mission is to enforce 7th century laws onto the rest of us. So what if those laws regard non-Muslims as a lower form of life. So what if this is a religion that holds females to be inferior and would force me into a hijab/burkha/mantoo in a heartbeat. When Muslim immigrants start expressing desire for sharia law in Australia, its time to take notice.

‘And you think a few Islamic extremists are going to do more damage than that.’

I think Islamic extremists are no threat militarily although they will do plenty of damage in sneak cowardly attacks like the ones in London and Madrid – this will be a threat for some time to come.

I do believe that millions of Muslim immigrants will disrupt our societies (as they are doing already) and eventually outnumber Europeans in some countries (like Holland).

Although there are plenty of decent Muslims who wish to live in peace, large scale immigration from Islamic countries is simply not worth it – the benefits are minimal and the risk of importing radicals is too great.
Posted by dee, Friday, 28 July 2006 12:28:35 PM
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“Oh don’t do anything to make them hate us!’ Classic appeasement.”

Where do you get “classic appeasement” out of opposing an illegal, aggressive, murderous war waged solely to get control of the oil? Might I remind you there were no WMD, no links with Al Queda, no yellowcake from Africa, no imminent threat– in short, no justification for the invasion. Your own PM said at the start of the war that it could not be justified on the basis if regime change - now it’s all about regime change - to a US stooge regime that will hand over the oil. By not launching such a war, who would we have been appeasing? You really are clutching at straws here dee. If anyone was doing the appeasing it was John Howard sucking up to W in order to get support for his own deputy sheriff job in this region in order colonize East Timor and the Solomons etc.

And gee whiz, waddayaknow, Arabs hate the fact that they are having the living daylights bombed out of them, they hate the fact that tens (or hundreds) of thousands of them – human beings – have been killed, maimed and tortured. But refraining from unprovoked indiscriminate killing, maiming and torturing would have been “appeasement”.

to be continued...
Posted by tao, Friday, 28 July 2006 11:33:39 PM
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continued from above

But the crux of the matter dee, is that although you haven’t said it outright, you, despite having been presented with the facts (providing you care to look as hard at them as you do at evidence of the evil Muslim), rationalize and justify the use of violence on a massive scale using the most powerful military hardware in order to subjugate an entire population to imperialist rule.

You then have the unmitigated gall to sit in moral judgement of disenfranchised, dispossessed and brutalized Palestinians who are living under the jackboot of an illegal occupying (and don’t forget religious) force (also using the most powerful military hardware) with no prospects and no future, who fall victim to a reactionary ideology (promoted by their leadership to further their own interests) that promises them martyrdom, 72 virgins and (they hope, but misguidedly) the liberation of their own people.

In *Their Morals and Ours* Leon Trotsky pointed out that “history has different yardsticks for the cruelty” of the oppressed and the oppressor. “A slave-owner who through cunning and violence shackles a slave in chains, and a slave who through cunning or violence breaks the chains – let not the contemptible eunuchs tell us that they are equals before a court of morality!”

The hatred you see in ordinary Palestinians (however not that of their corrupt leaders) is the hatred of the oppressed for its oppressor. The state terrorism carried out by the likes of the US and Israel, essentially for the economic gains of a small minority of people, is the expression of the hatred (or indifference) of oppressors for all of humanity.

You, an apologist for oppressors, who have not lived what Palestinians have lived, have no right to pass your oh-so-pure moral judgement on them.
Posted by tao, Friday, 28 July 2006 11:37:24 PM
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Tao – judging by your use of such hackneyed cliches as 'dispossessed and brutalized', 'living under the jackboot' you have overdosed on Karl Marx.

‘Classic appeasement.”

My words:

‘Australia was identified as an enemy long before the Iraq war. Bin Laden stated that Australia had been ‘warned’ not to interfere in East Timor.’

The Bali terrorists were instructed to target ‘white people’ because we are ‘all the same’ no matter our nationality. If the war in Iraq did not exist, there there would be some other excuse to hate us– the Palestinians, the Crusades, the 'historical victimisation’ of Muslims by the big bad West, our alliance with the US etc.

‘Oh why do they hate us?’ was a reference to the nonsense spouted by some people after murderous terrorist attacks, not to the war in Iraq. In fact, please point out anywhere in any post where I have supported the Iraq war. You can’t – because I have never supported it. To clarify:

The Australian government should not make decisions subject to the approval of Muslims (or anyone else).

‘to sit in moral judgement’

‘Bush&Howard=bin Laden’ is not a ‘moral judgement’? You make your 'moral judgements', I'll make mine.

I agree that the Palestinians are conned by their corrupt leaders – but how long will it take them to wake up? Initiating a death cult is not the way to achieve their aims. Do they ever ask themselves ‘where does all the money go?’ or 'how come the leaders kids aren't suicide bombers'?

‘apologist for opressors’

I assume you live in Australia, so answer this question:

The indigenous culture of Australia was destroyed by white settlement. Suppose that the surviving aboriginals created an organization like the PLO, vowed to keep fighting until every white person was dead and hid out in surrounding countries (like PNG or Indonesia) – then commenced firing rockets into Australia and sending suicide bombers into our towns. Maybe into your town. Lets hear your solution if you were in the position of 'jack-booted oppressor'.
Posted by dee, Saturday, 29 July 2006 12:19:19 PM
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Tao - Re WMDs in Iraq

Pres. Bush is not the only one who believes in the presence of WMDs -

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

Many political figures including Sandy Berger (Clinton National Security Adviser), - Madeline Albright (Clinton Secretary of State), - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA) concurred.

Since the removal of Saddam Hussein:

Sen. Rick Santorum, R-PA, and Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-MI, released the declassified overview of a report produced by the National Ground Intelligence Center, the group that has searched Iraq for Saddam Hussein’s WMDs since 2004.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/21/060622014432.acs11f38.html

‘Since 2003, Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions, which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. ... filled and unfilled pre-Gulf war chemical munitions are assessed to still exist. That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country.’

•In April 2004, Jordanian officials seize 20 tons of WMDs from al-Qaeda containing 70 different chemical agents, including Sarin and VX gas. King Abdullah announced on April 17 the stockpiles originated in Iraq.

•In early 2004, Dutch officials discovered five pounds of yellowcake uranium ore in scrap metal imported from Iraq.

•In subsequent months, the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) found parts of banned al-Samoud 2 (SA2) missiles shipped around the world as “scrap.”

•The following month, Saddam loyalists fired a “chemical binary projectile” filled with Sarin gas at U.S. troops in Iraq.

Perhaps there were WMDs after all.
Posted by dee, Saturday, 29 July 2006 1:49:03 PM
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dee

“Tao-–-judging-by-your-use-of-such-hackneyed-cliches-as-'dispossessed-and-brutalized',-'living-under-the-jackboot'-you-have-overdosed-on-Karl-Marx.“ Perhaps you should read a bit yourself, much better than overdosing on the Daily Telegraph.

Do you not understand what dispossessed means, or brutalized? Do you not agree that Palestinians have been violently dispossessed of their land by Israel? If not, please explain by what euphemistic phrase you would call it? I’ve always considered a dictionary to useful tool – perhaps you should try it.

The full comment was “who are living under the jackboot of an illegal occupying (and don’t forget religious) force (also using the most powerful military hardware) with no prospects and no future”. Do you not agree that Israel is illegally occupying the “Occupied Territories” and the only way they can maintain this is by brutal repression using $3 billion of US aid per year, more than half of which comprises military hardware? The power of their jackboot is clearly being demonstrated in Lebanon at the moment. BTW you also obviously have no problem with Israel using an extremist version of the Jewish religion as a pretext to claim the land of others.

“Oh-why-do-they-hate-us?’-was-a-reference-to-the-nonsense-spouted-by-some-people-after-murderous-terrorist-attacks,-not-to-the-war-in-Iraq.-In-fact,-please-point-out-anywhere-in-any-post-where-I-have-supported-the-Iraq-war.-You-can’t-–-because-I-have-never-supported-it.-To-clarify:

The-Australian-government-should-not-make-decisions-subject-to-the-approval-of-Muslims-(or-anyone-else).”

Now you have resorted to distorting your own arguments. Your comments about “classic appeasement” were clearly suggesting that by opposing the Iraq war I was appeasing terrorists.

*support* - I believe I said justify and rationalize. If you are not justifying and rationalizing the war, then why are you ferreting around finding pathetic examples to substantiate the myth that there was possibly a credible case for all-out war? A couple of quotes from your little article:

“The-lawmakers-cited-the-report-as-validation-of-the-US-rationale-for-the-war,-and-stressed-the-ongoing-danger-they-pose.” Mmm…validation of rationale = justifying and rationalizing.

“A-Pentagon-official-who-confirmed-the-findings-said-that-all-the-weapons-were-pre-1991-vintage-munitions-in-such-a-degraded-state-they-couldn't-be-used-for-what-they-are-designed-for."

Ohmigod! Immanent threat!!

So a couple of Republican politicians got given the job of publicizing the fact that some old degraded weapons were found - in attempt to validate an illegal invasion. Why? Because it would have been a PR disaster for Bush to hold out this puny find as justification for the quagmire and massive war crime that is now Iraq.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 29 July 2006 11:57:02 PM
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And what does it mean that Democrats were involved in the push for the US to launch a war? Merely that they are serving the same corporate interests as the Republicans – there is virtually no difference between them, just as there is no difference between the Labour and Liberal parties here.

If, as you say, you truly never supported the Iraq war, then it should follow that you must agree that the instigators of that war are guilty of breaking international law, and of committing unjustified mass murder. Is this the case? If so, what difference is there between them and Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden?

“I-agree-that-the-Palestinians-are-conned-by-their-corrupt-leaders-–-but-how-long-will-it-take-them-to-wake-up?-Initiating-a-death-cult-is-not-the-way-to-achieve-their-aims.-Do-they-ever-ask-themselves-‘where-does-all-the-money-go?’-or-'how-come-the-leaders-kids-aren't-suicide-bombers'?”

The same could be asked of you dee. When will you wake up and realise that you are being conned by corrupt leaders? We apparently have a booming economy if you believe them, yet there never seems to be enough money for hospitals or schools. Plenty for waging wars based on lies though, and giving tax breaks to the rich. The gap between rich and poor is ever widening. CEOs are getting golden handshakes, companies making record profits, while slashing workers jobs and wages. Some workers are lucky to get their entitlements for work they have already done. We have the ability to provide food, clothing, shelter, water, medicine to every person in the world, yet the rich are lining their pockets and sending the poor to war. Do you ever ask yourself why? At the same time, you might also ask yourself why the government and your media up there in Sydney are so intent on whipping up anti-Islamic fear. A clear case of creating vertical divisions within society in order to obscure the horizontal ones.

And no, initiating a death cult is not going to achieve their aims. I will attempt to deal with this and your question about aborigines in a later post.

And FYI, here is a picture of an Israeli girl writing messages on a shell destined for Lebanon.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-refuses-ceasefire-request/2006/07/18/1153166347409.html

But according to you, Arabs are unparalleled when it comes to teaching their children hatred.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 29 July 2006 11:58:06 PM
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Tao - ‘.. justify and rationalize [Iraq]’

I believe that the war was not primarily about WMDs (although they certainly existed – ask the Kurds). My opinion: the invasion was intended to change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia - Saddam was foolish enough to give cause for concern. The US didnt think far enough ahead or take local and tribal loyalties into account (as usual) but I am not prepared to totally condemn the war –its one of those events that will take decades to analyse and it isn’t over yet.

According to relatives and friends in the Australian army, the reporting on Iraq is very one-sided so I prefer to wait and see.

“..the government and your media .. intent on whipping up anti-Islamic fear.”

Live in Sydney for a while before you make such accusations. On the contrary, the NSW government and media have tried to hush up the high level of Muslim crime and violence since the 1980s – they even tried to deny that the gang rapes had a racist base. Obviously reality didn’t gell with their multicultural dreams and of course they needed the votes of SW Sydney Muslims. The situation culminated in the Cronulla riots after years of complaints were ignored by NSW police – even then, only public anger forced them to make some half-hearted arrests of the gun-waving Muslims involved in the revenge raids.

‘your question about aborigines’.

The scenario is the same situation that Israel is in right now. Any Australian who totally condemns the actions of Israel should be prepared to say what they would expect their government to do in similar circumstances. Any Australian who believes that they are living on ‘stolen/occupied land’ and who condemns Israel should perhaps rethink. There but for the grace of God goes Australia.

“an Israeli girl writing messages on a shell destined for Lebanon.’

Follow the story further - apparently the press asked them to do so - just as the press used to bribe kids to throw rocks at soldiers in Belfast.
Posted by dee, Sunday, 30 July 2006 4:55:52 PM
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Dee,

“My opinion: the invasion was intended to change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia - Saddam was foolish enough to give cause for concern. The US didnt think far enough ahead or take local and tribal loyalties into account (as usual) but I am not prepared to totally condemn the war –its one of those events that will take decades to analyse and it isn’t over yet.”

Decades to analyse – what on earth do you mean? I can point you to ample analysis if you like, and it was patently obvious to millions of people all over the world what was going on – they are after the oil.

All these comments reveal is that you are prepared to accept that the US was entitled to use ‘shock and awe’ violence, murdering thousands and destroying vital infrastructure in order to “change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia” – or to put it another way, get control of some of the biggest oil fields in the world.

You are therefore prepared to accept that the use of force to conquer another people, and further geostrategic hegemony in a region not your own, is legitimate.

So in other words, you do rationalize and justify violence on a mass scale, and the oppression of the Iraqi people. As I said, you are an apologist for the oppressor.

In these circumstances I fail to see how you can credibly condemn others for thinking that the use of violence is legitimate in furthering their aims – i.e. Islamic fundamentalists, Hitler etc. Unless, of course, you are a hypocrite. It is interesting that you are unwilling to accept violence committed against you, but are happy for it to be carried out against others in your name – until, of course, you take a few decades to analyse it.
Posted by tao, Monday, 31 July 2006 12:07:18 AM
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“The scenario is the same situation that Israel is in right now. Any Australian who totally condemns the actions of Israel should be prepared to say what they would expect their government to do in similar circumstances. Any Australian who believes that they are living on ‘stolen/occupied land’ and who condemns Israel should perhaps rethink. There but for the grace of God goes Australia.”

And here’s the thing dee, I don’t believe the Australian government, or indeed the entire political establishment, is interested in doing anything for me, let alone indigenous people. They do not represent ordinary people. Same goes for the Israeli government.

I notice you didn’t respond to this:

“When will you wake up and realise that you are being conned by corrupt leaders? We apparently have a booming economy if you believe them, yet there never seems to be enough money for hospitals or schools. Plenty for waging wars based on lies though, and giving tax breaks to the rich. The gap between rich and poor is ever widening. CEOs are getting golden handshakes, companies making record profits, while slashing workers jobs and wages. Some workers are lucky to get their entitlements for work they have already done. We have the ability to provide food, clothing, shelter, water, medicine to every person in the world, yet the rich are lining their pockets and sending the poor to war. Do you ever ask yourself why?”

What is your assessment of such contradictions? Do you ever ask yourself why this is happening?

These are fundamental issues that must be considered before anything else. I’ll be interested to see your response.

One last thing for the moment – God has nothing to do with it.
Posted by tao, Monday, 31 July 2006 12:08:08 AM
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Hold your stallions diligent TAO, away from the futile-pursuit, cabalistic-testosterone-overdosed DEE whose extremely radical anti-Muslim onslaught on this forum has been synonymous with the racist-slur rhetoric-emissions by his siamese twin Boaz_David. As they always swayed and steered sideways the focal point of the crucial research into Jew aristocracy. As a result this thread's content has been unfortunately cross-pollinated via fricassee gobble-DEE-gook belonging to-other topics as Lebanon Bleeds; Culturally Transmitted Identity; Defining David Hicks; or Zarqawi's War.

Of course OLO forum frequenting Zionist-fanatics will never tell you how all the terrorism started in the Middle-East, do they? They will never admit to you, that they themselves have played-a-huge role in its fundamental development! Nor will they ever admit that their highly idolised fascist-junta in Israel continues to-pour fuel on a very volatile situation by brutalising an-entire population of the Middle East. In order to-achieve an-exclusively Zionist enclave of the radical racism, towards the mutated demography aspirations for the greater eretz Israel.

Surely they'll fiercely deny that they are prima-facie factor to-plunge the entire world into a Dante envisaged inferno by attacking Syria and Iran in a frenzied succession, after Lebanon's obliteration. What could be currently underway with US backing (as we speak). Yeah they will deny with a blatant chutzpah face, world-concerned-citizenry inferences a propos elders-of-zion clandestinely incubated stooges in the US establishment. String attached to the powerful Zionist lobbies, which control key elements of the US governance within the finance, military, education, justice, health, trade, gambling and mass media. Not mentioning Hollywood studios partaken shaping the American couch-potatoes attitude in the Zionist favour.

Contrary those brave enough amongst our Jew dissidents to speak-out against the radical Zionism. While condemning so painfully obvious fascist hegemony, guilty of the heinous crimes committed against the humanity. At the time when utterly deceitful Zionist zealots, veiled under revolved aliases cast on this forum, evidently having a great stake in blurring so radically span disparity between the Jews on socio-ideological grounds. How else would they use otherwise our Jew-lesser brethren embodiment? Scapegoated as the human shield to deflect focus from the actual plague!
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 31 July 2006 4:24:30 PM
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So now that the brave citizenry within OLO forum began exposing these-racist Zionist-stooges for who, and-what-they-are, and what an-agenda they stand for ... these highly maligned stooges (lacking-morality-virtues), still-dare to-scream, bitch, threaten, send-hate-mail, scuffle-threads, destroy-debate-forums or the vital-blogsites in an-effort to-silence all the criticism against the diabolical Zionism. Even if any-such-valid censures are legitimate, they go-for the jugular-and-besmirch decent-human-beings! Just for expressing our revulsion versus fascist-tactics-onslaught, sustained by the Middle-Eastern people.

Aggravated especially since the latest in diabolically-amalgamated Olmert/Dubya plot being set in-motion in-accordance with the final-solution-for the Arabia. Manifesting thus-affront-to the contemporary human-rights principles and the elementary civil-society-norms. As fascist Zionism modus-operandi sought to re-create the anecdotal land-of-milk-n-honey in the 21st century in-lieu-of-something, we were told by Zionists ..."existed over 3,000 years ago". What is totally unacceptable to-the-humankind on the planet earth (whilst the hijacked Jewish communities faced-moral-implosion and social-chaos) due to the endless occupation by Israeli junta Palestinian territories. Culminating in the latest invasion into sovereign Lebanon.

Even Israeli refuseniks warned their own brainwashed people of the impending doom, faced by the Jews on-a-whole. As a result of a deeply entrenched decay. Representing haemorrhaging Zionism for some years, like an-open festering-sore. Whilst the neighbouring Arab countries despotic regimes hated and distrusted each other with a passion. Still some Arabian negotiators offered behind the scene a way-out for Olmert/Dubya right-winger-zealots, but they rejected it outright (with an-utter disdain). In spite of the offered normalised relations, security for the Israeli people and integration in a long-run into Middle-Eastern setting.

All these were offered in exchange for-a-long oppressed Palestinians to-have an-ultimate freedom from diabolical Zionism and its fascist rule in the occupied territories. Where so vastly-innocent-victims spilled-blood, tainted-Israel and US accomplice (not-to the lesser extent than the guilt for the spilled-blood in Iraq, Afghanistan and lately-in-Lebanon). Hopefully comatose Sharon to-be imminently joined by the impeached Dubya and Olmert. So ultimately they-to-meet all together in-hell and exchange their genocide notes. After all, they had a very same set-of-solutions for defenceless minorities (which live in their midst), ethnic cleansing or elimination in the fascist style of the final solution.
Posted by Leo Braun, Monday, 31 July 2006 4:38:29 PM
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Tao - ‘analyse – what on earth do you mean?’

Looking at the broader picture, an Iraqi democracy in the ME would not be a bad thing per se (if it happens) and the removal of Saddam Hussein is a plus for Iraq. Will Iraqis in the future feel that being freed from a despot was worth the ensuing loss of life?

‘they are after the oil’

I never believed that a simple oil grab was the reason behind the war. However, I did consider that the Bush admin. believed the occupation of Iraq plus establishment of permanent US military bases would discourage OPEC producers from switching the denomination of oil sales from USD to euros. Also, the US may need to control the Ghawar oil fields in Saudi Arabia in case of a Saudi coup by an anti-western group – there are signs of coming unrest in Saudi.

‘you are an apologist for the oppressor’

Who, me? If significant amounts of active WMDs had been found within Iraq and the loss of life, of both Iraqis and young US marines, were not so great, I would have supported it. In the present circumstances, no.

'didn’t respond to this..’

Maybe I agree with you! I did respond, actually, *but* 350 word limit. I don’t need to ‘wake up’ – I am perfectly aware of ‘CEO golden handshakes’ etc. These things are not exactly new – remember the era of the corporate crooks and the billions handed to Alan Bond? I don’t agree with all of John Howard’s policies but I would vote for him ten times over rather than see the ALP back in power – a return to the days when the economy was controlled by unions would be a disaster. The AUD was 48 cents to the USD in the ‘Pacific peso’ days, (it is now approximately 78 cents).

cont. next post
Posted by dee, Monday, 31 July 2006 7:06:21 PM
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Tao - The IR (especially unfair dismissal) laws needed to be fixed but not at the price of conditions and security. The increasing push for workplace contracts is also a worry and the health and education systems in most states are a disgrace. I have no argument with you on these points, the little person is getting screwed, its happening in the US too. The European model is fine for the average worker (so far) but their economies are lagging badly and unemployment is way up so their generous welfare systems cannot continue indefinitely, the time has come to pay the piper. Competition is also a big factor – unless Australia wishes to follow Europe, we have to lose some entitlements – and its always the little people who pay – yes, it sucks, but what is the solution?

‘ I don’t believe the Australian government is interested in doing anything for me ..’

The question was: what would you wish the government to do on your behalf– ie what would be your response to the threat?

1. You can acknowledge that you are in the wrong, return to the country of your ancestors and leave Australia to the original inhabitants.

2. You can continue to try negotiation with people who have vowed to drive you into the sea.

3. You can fight.

This is the position of Israel now.

‘Same goes for the Israeli government.’

According to the latest poll, 86% of Israelis support the attack on Hezbollah.

‘God has nothing to do with it’.

You seem mighty sure of that.
Posted by dee, Monday, 31 July 2006 7:09:42 PM
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dee

“Iraqi-democracy-in-the-ME-would-not-be-a-bad-thing-per-se”

No, probably not. However the so-called “democracy” being installed in Iraq is not genuine democracy at all. “Democracy” forced on people through violence cannot in any way be considered a democratic movement of the people. In fact, if a cohesive and truly democratic movement were to form in Iraq, and be allowed to have its say, the US would probably be run out of town – which the US would not like at all – witness Hamas in Palestine. After claiming to be bringing “freedom and democracy” to the ME, the US comprehensively rejected the Palestinians’ democratic voice – because they are not pro-US. And not content with simply expressing their dissatisfaction with the choice of the Palestinian people, they cut off all funding and condoned Israel withholding taxes that they collect on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, in order to bring about a crisis.

“Will Iraqis-in-the-future-feel-that-being-freed-from-a-despot-was-worth-the-ensuing-loss-of-life?” This is a totally stupid, loaded, and patronising question. Firstly we’ll never know what the dead ones think, because they’re dead. Secondly, are you suggesting that some other nation’s leaders have the right to decide that you will die? - because later down the track you’ll thank them – father knows best sort of thing. This is nothing like dying for a cause or a belief, these people are dying so the US can get control of their oil. Yet you are trying to give it some sort of romantic gloss in order to justify your unprincipled approval of imperialist violence.

I think you are completely out of touch dee – you are not seeing these people as human beings, they are just some “other” to you, who (in your imagination) will be grateful for what has been meted out to them. Well the news is – they are p**sed off – and rightfully so – just as you would be.

to be continued
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:00:02 PM
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continued from above

And of course there is the mandatory recourse to the “despot” Saddam. Of course, the guy was tyrant. So what? There are plenty of tyrants in the world that the US does nothing about because they are either pro-US, or there is no geostrategic interest to the US. Let us not forget that the US was happy to deal with Saddam, even selling him the chemicals, while he was their “bastard”.

“I-never-believed-that-a-simple-oil-grab-was-the-reason-behind-the-war.-However,-I-did-consider-that-the-Bush-admin.-believed-the-occupation-of-Iraq-plus-establishment-of-permanent-US-military-bases-would-discourage-OPEC-producers-from-switching-the-denomination-of-oil-sales-from-USD-to-euros.-Also,-the-US-may-need-to-control-the-Ghawar-oil-fields-in-Saudi-Arabia-in-case-of-a-Saudi-coup-by-an-anti-western-group-–-there-are-signs-of-coming-unrest-in-Saudi.”

So again you appear to be condoning the US using overwhelming violence to achieve its aims (whatever they may be), regardless of the will of the people of a region (remembering of course that the oil of those fields “belongs” to the people of that region to do with what they will). And before you say it, yes their leaders are corrupt – but don’t you think that is a matter for those people to decide? If there is an anti-western coup in Saudi Arabia so be it – the Saudi regime isn’t exactly a beacon of democracy itself. If OPEC chooses to switch the denomination of oil sales, so be it – that’s the “free market”. Where does the US get off using military force, killing innocent people in the process, to engineer the market and Saudi leadership their way?

Again, given your willingness to accept that the US (and Australia) using violence to achive its aims is legitimate, you cannot credibly condemn anyone else for using force to achieve their aims. You can therefore not condemn Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc. for believing that using violence is legitimate – anywhere, even here. Do you agree that this is the consequence of your logic? I am interested in seeing your response because, as I see it, there is no real point going on until this is clarified.

BTW, I understood perfectly what the question was, and will deal with it once you demonstrate that you are capable of seeing, and acknowledging, the contradiction in your own thought.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 1 August 2006 10:02:31 PM
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Tao – this will be my last post for a while so I will try to address all your questions here.

‘Democracy forced on people through violence’

And despotism isn’t forced on people by violence? Democracy was forced onto Japan and Germany by the Allies and worked out quite well. Saddam has been removed and a vacuum created, should it be filled by yet another tyrant or religious Fascist? There is no reason why a form of democracy (where even women have a voice) should not work in the ME. The invasion of Iraq is a fait accompli and cannot be reversed - should the US now withdraw and leave the country in a state of instability?

‘US comprehensively rejected the Palestinians’ democratic voice’

Hamas is a terrorist organization that has carried out dozens of suicide bombings against Israel and has stated that it opposes peace talks and will not disarm. The EU has also classified Hamas as a terrorist organization. Voting for it in a democratic fashion does not outweigh the fact that a vote for Hamas was a vote to continue the attacks on Israel. Where is the sense in funding a group dedicated to ones destruction?

‘patronising question’

Nobody will ever know the true number of Iraqis who were tortured/raped, murdered then buried in mass graves. Saddam also stole billions from the Iraqi people in collusion with the UN oil-for-food scams. Maybe he was ‘just another dictator’ to you – but ask the tens of thousands of Iraqis his regime drove from their homes if they are happy to see him gone.

‘This is nothing like dying for a cause or a belief,’

Many Iraqis are dying for a cause (al-qaeda’s cause) - whether or not they choose to - in suicide bombs, attacks on civilians, kidnappings, assassinations of judges, the killings of prisoners – even homosexuals have been targeted by death squads. To quote Ayman al-Zawahiri (CEO of al Qaeda):

"the Islamic Emirate can be established [in Iraq] and the mujahideen would then move from this Emirate to Palestine to fight the Jews."

Cont.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 1:05:50 PM
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Tao - if al-Qaeda triumphs, Iraqi is destined to be an ‘emirate’ under sharia law. If the US triumphs, a form of democracy will be implemented.

‘ violence is legitimate’

How do we fight terrorists who hide among the civilian population? How do we kill them without also killing civilians? What do we do if terrorists are carrying out attacks from Islamic Country X and the government of that country cannot/will not arrest them? Is a pre-emptive strike against them permissable even though civilians of Country X may be killed? Since our own lives are in danger, my opinion is 'yes'.

‘their “bastard”.’

In the real world, today’s ‘our bastard’ is tomorrow’s enemy. The US acts in its own interests the same as every other country. ME countries receive billions of dollars annually in US aid and western countries accept millions of migrants and refugees fleeing from these countries - yet they expect to be free of all attached strings?

‘a matter for those people to decide?’

Yes - but since those people have no democratic voice at all, how do they decide? Did the Iraqis ‘decide’ their form of government? Do all ME people agree with al-Qaeda's agenda? I dont think so.

‘ you appear to be condoning’

Its possible to state facts without ‘condoning’ the situation.

‘Ghawar-oil-fields-in-Saudi-Arabia’

Saudi Arabian oil money finances terrorism throughout the world and the establishment of Islamic schools with jihad and hatred of non-Muslims as their main subjects. The anti-Jewish and anti-Western propaganda coming from Saudi is stomach-turning, so any group taking over SA would be rabidly anti-western and could possibly cut off oil supplies. This would destroy our economies and cause chaos – do we have the right to ensure to the best of our ability that this doesn’t happen? Yes, imo.

‘the contradiction ... ’

Of course there is contradiction – these issues are not black and white and never will be. It is not a simple case of identifying the enemy and taking appropriate action, many innocent people on both sides die in a conflict of this nature.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 1:34:13 PM
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Some facts for you dee:

Hitler was elected “democratically”.

Al-queda moved into Iraq AFTER THE US INVASION.

Your ignorance and stupidity (or is that blatant peddling of warmongering propaganda?) are breathtaking.

I’m afraid you have just proven that you see can only see issues in black and white yourself. And you are a hypocrite.

US and Israeli (and Australian) violence, in contravention of international law, is OK as far as you’re concerned – unconditionally. You continually cite mitigating factors which have been fed to you by the perpetrators of such violence.

Arab and Muslim violence is to be condemned according to you – unconditionally. No mitigating factors allowed.

“The anti-Jewish and anti-Western propaganda coming from Saudi is stomach-turning, so any group taking over SA would be rabidly anti-western and could possibly cut off oil supplies. This would destroy our economies and cause chaos – do we have the right to ensure to the best of our ability that this doesn’t happen? Yes, imo”

You are happy for thousands of Iraqis to die to secure YOUR oil supply and save YOUR economy. Chaos in Iraq rather than in Australia. A small price to pay according to you – obviously to you they are just sub-human Arabs after all.

Talk about stomach-turning and rabid. Your self-inflated, small minded, hate-riddled diatribes are FILTH.

I am much more concerned about an Australia filled with people like you than I am about one filled with Muslims.

You make me sick.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 2 August 2006 11:13:35 PM
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Tao – I stated several posts ago that I didn’t see the point of further discussion with you and you have just proven me correct. And no answer to any question I posed – except emotional nonsense, as I expected.

* Would you expect your government to hunt down terrorists attacking us from another country if the govt. of that country refused to do it?

* Would you veto interference if ME oil-producers cut off the oil (for which we pay top dollar) and Australia descended into chaos and violence?

* Should the US withdraw from Iraq and leave the country in a state of instability?

* How do we fight terrorists who hide among the civilian population?

Hmm, no viable answers from you, what a surprise. Except ‘Hitler was elected’. Gee, really?

‘.. Muslim violence is to be condemned according to you’

I condemn Muslim ‘violence’ if it constitutes beheading bound captives, suicide bombings against civilians etc. This is not ‘fighting’ legitimately, it is cowardice and sadism justified by religion.

‘ fed to you by the perpetrators of such violence’’.

Yeah, yeah - you make up your mind without influence, anyone who disagrees with you has been ‘fed’ or ‘brainwashed’.

Some facts for you, Tao:

In case you haven’t noticed, Western countries are engaged in a war with extremist Islam. Western countries have been infiltrated with extremist Muslims – even someone as naïve as you must have noticed that Muslims are on trial for terrorism in nearly every major Western country.

‘Chaos in Iraq rather than in Australia’

If it ever comes to a choice of this nature, and I hope it does not, I will reluctantly choose that chaos happens somewhere else. I will choose to put Australia first every time – the same as most people do when it comes to the final choice. If fools like you don’t agree, too bad.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 3 August 2006 1:19:22 PM
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Tao - cont.

‘an Australia filled with people like you than I am about one filled with Muslims’.

LOL - Like the Muslims who attacked John Howard’s car last week? Or the Muslims who are attacking synagogues in Sydney?

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,19993043-001028,00.html

They’re coming to your neighbourhood, real soon! Then you may find out the true meaning of ‘FILTH’. Have fun.

Don’t worry, Tao, if idiots like you have their way, Australia will soon be full of such people and their medieval hatreds. I hesitate to wish ill on anyone, but for your own education, I hope you get to know them much better than you ever wanted to – especially the Neanderthal Lebanese thugs who have caused chaos in Sydney. Have fun.

“You make me sick’

Not half as sick as you make me, believe it. No response to the KLO scenario either – funny how people like you refuse to face up to reality and then hurl personal insults at those who do. Please, please – don’t bother to respond.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 3 August 2006 1:45:45 PM
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Dee

“I hesitate to wish ill on anyone” – you could have fooled me.

“but for your own education, I hope you get to know them much better than you ever wanted to – especially the Neanderthal Lebanese thugs who have caused chaos in Sydney. Have fun.”

For your own education, perhaps you’d better take a trip to southern Lebanon, Palestine, or Iraq – immediately.
Posted by tao, Friday, 4 August 2006 6:35:57 PM
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• Tao ..."For your own education, perhaps you'd better take a trip to southern Lebanon, Palestine, or Iraq - immediately"... Or quite feasibly as an-alternative some could actually venture-to-UK, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, France or Belgium, and try to live there side-by-side with the local refugees. As-for-fact I've spent six months in a refugee-camp in Switzerland as a first political-asylum-seeker (six-years-ago) from the Ghetto-Australis. Just-to-face the medieval-hatred in-turn from the Swiss-Kapos, who cannily-pitted those-displaced by ravages of zionazi onslaught in Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine, Rwanda, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Sierra Leone, Congo, Cameroon and Uganda in accordance with Judeo-Cecil-Rhodes doctrine, divide-n-conquer!

Mind you, its a real-ordeal for someone to cope day-n-night with the horrible consequences of the deep-rooted alienation, incurred as-a-result of the millenniums long tyranny. Sustained by people who having-an-inherited right of self-determination in-ancestral-land, so-long-as no-other-inhabitants in-their-midst to-be discriminated against. It is simple as that! As for the racist-agitators against the middle-eastern people's aspirations, I would suggest for them to-stick their bloody zionazi-nose in a serene bee-hive, within-an-exertion to validate their devious vitriol against the nastily stinging-bees. Beware they're coming to your neighbourhood, real soon!

"Then you may find out the true meaning of Neanderthal"... known-to-descend from the mountain tops as the rampant Jew fornicators, who from the earliest days raped, pillaged and slaughtered our-Jew-lesser brethren, then indulged-in the parasite-feasts. Synonymous with Jewanderthal's attributes, reflected impeccably in-my-lexicon on the wandering-Jew-species, if not for the valley near Düsseldorf in Germany called Neanderthal (where Jewanderthal-fossils were-first-found in 1856), which ever since became associated with-these-barbarian Neanderthal primates.

To-be precise the infamous "Neander" term originated from a Jew church-poet Joachim Neander (Neumann), who was "inspired" by this steep valley of a small river Düssel. As a result that valley (Thal) was named in his honour in the early 19th century, as Neander. Resembling Jewanderthal's anatomy of a stubby featured squatter, awfully shaggy the beetle-browed fellow, though paradoxically bald. Besides other redeeming aspect of the bulging stare chap, often portraying cross-eyed-image with the bat-like ears in the classic extreme of prince Charles.
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 6 August 2006 4:14:42 PM
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What inevitably comes-to-mind, when we think of our-ancient-forebears. Though in comparison to an-earlier Australopithecine (a little-better than-a-two legged ape), the Victorian Jewanderthaler became-a-model of the evolutionary refinement. Endowed with the commodious cranium that could accommodate a brain-larger by 10% than that of the humble Goy-or-Shiksa, although differently shaped-for-plotting. Culminating in the almighty chosen-Jew-aristocracy to-reign on the planet-earth within the "rule by the best". Spare-a-though for the slain-in-their-midst, our bellowed-Jew-princes Diana. Courtesy of the atrocious-monarchy-ethos, where collateral Jew-lesser brethren have been always strategically placed on the precarious flanks.

As so-significantly utilised term "collateral" by neocon-warmongers since the Golf War has been actually-paraphrased in American Heritage Dictionary as ..."Having an-ancestor in-common but descended from-a-different line"... What reflects precisely on-correlative testimony ..."Where instead of Zionism being the hope of the Jews, our blood-has-been the political salvation-of-diabolical Zionism"... As our-Jew-lesser brethren faced-always collateral-ravage fallout consequences. With an-eye-opener on-decades-old calamity, endured by me. While being-blacklisted and thus-without resolution-in-sight to unemployable's status. Just as my besieged father in Poland was held for the ransom since April 1994.

What compelled on-me to-go abroad in-a-search of zionazi-hyenas-den, as I headed on a pilgrimage 2000, towards safe-haven-enclave for persecuted Jews in Galuth. Only to face hideous Israeli apparatchiks, while sustaining humiliation and harassment within the ruthless intimidation tactics. As with the added insult to the injury, I was told by the Foreign Affairs Minister's Counsellor Hana Dvir, a propos sought 88 year old father's birth certificate as a proof of our relationship! Instructed to fax it to Jerusalem, before FAD ever to proceed.

Nevertheless on the following day, I was back on my way to Jerusalem. Where familiar outpost's military guard let me in (without lengthy interrogation as norm). With me solely armed with documented substance, compiled since 1994. What actually was precluded from the submission, in spite of my plea towards establishing contact with my father. Solely sought to know on my father's wellbeing, without any monetary or valued property to be an issue in question. So why on earth sought crucial news about my father, to be kept from me?
Posted by Leo Braun, Sunday, 6 August 2006 4:27:29 PM
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Leo,

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about with regard to "Jewanderthals", however I think it is dangerous (and possibly racist) to talk about any humans as though they are anything but humans. From what I can gather you are making a distinction between everyday Jews and Zionists, however it doesn't always come across that way.

It appears that you consider that Zionists (and Jewanderthals) cause much of our problems, and while it is undeniably true that Zionism has contributed to the holocaust and problems in the Middle East, it is not true that Zionism is the only cause. There were many things which themselves created the conditions for Zionism, and later encouraged it.

However, I do note with irony that dee was "offended" by your use of the term "Jewanderthal" but sees no problem in calling Lebanese people neanderthals. Just another example of her bigotted double standards.
Posted by tao, Monday, 7 August 2006 6:18:12 PM
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Speaking the Truth in Time of Universal Deceit!

• Concerned Tao, point taken-a-propos dangerous-racist-connotation, perhaps-to-arise on some reader's mind as-a-result of the mistaken Jewanderthals as though they are anything but humans. So please be assured that in no-time would I ever engage in disreputable wanton, mocked-pranks-conduct, to-deface cardinal-primate's-attribute. What seemingly to-hurt so deeply-offended Dee's feelings. No wonder as-we-are-born with our-eyes-closed but our-mouths wide-open. Then some to-spent their whole-lives to reverse such-a-mistake of the nature (especially relevant to Zionist cuckoo-nest-incubated stooges).

In the circumstances let's us to-observe during TV viewing, especially SBS documentaries (regretfully curtailed-lately) the non-caucasian-people's rulers or preachers, who amazingly to-be-found quite-distinct from the populous, they-ought-to-represent. Then as one develops visual-acuity to-detect an-almighty chosen physiognomies, our scrutiny should progress into focused observation somewhat obvious to-the-lesser-extent our caucasian rulers or preachers. Who are embodying as-norm our-Jew-reflections.

That's why if Saudi prince (what's-his-name) decides-to-tour the land of milk-n-honey, he will automati-cally-be-given the status of the honorary Jew. Mind you, Saudi family members are aware that many people all over the world know-about their aristocratic-Jew-lineage. Going back-to-biblical times in Ethiopia, the cradle of Solomonic blood aristocracy. Where regional-Jew-rulers were known by the titles of Negus (king) or Amir (emir).

Whilst the sovereign Negusa Negest (king-of-kings), used to be known in the West as the Emperor. Obviously Saudi royalty exert an-utmost of effort to-conceal their aristocratic-Jew-origin by covering themselves with the cloak of the Islamic religion. As they try to-keep their Judeo ancestry hidden in-the-dark, by concocting so-utterly-bogus family tree. Nourished by Saudi royalty bloody-past which was, and still-being-stuck in the same mire of the brutal-despotism-atrocities.

Evidently coexistent with US empire's neo-cons and Israeli junta-aspirants, in reflection on the tribal-Jew-bestiality within the evilly-spiced and many-millenniums-old, the internecine-Jew-violence. Which afflicted our-Jew-race (Jewanderthal's splinter group), when even children of our patriarchs quarrelled so-incessantly. Was it merely an-accident that Cain and Abel, the first two brothers of the Bible were murderer and victim?

Pondered Elie Wiesel, as he wrote that his ability-to-deny supremacist-Zionism-evil unleashed against the Jew-lesser brethren ended with Altalena (use Google) incident. As it never occurred to-him-to-know that diabolical Zionist perpetrators might-be-capable of spilling-Jew-blood.
Posted by Leo Braun, Thursday, 10 August 2006 7:15:23 PM
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• Tao, none is more culpable than the supremacist Zionists who ignored the plight-of-dying Jew-lesser brethren. Not only did they publicly refuse-to-assist in a rescue (except their chosen-people) but they actively participated in Hitler's Nazism. Let's us-to-focus on 1935, when-a-passenger-ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left Bremerhaven in Germany. Its stern bore Hebrew 'Tel-Aviv' signage, whilst the swastika-banner fluttered from the mast. Although the ship was Zionist owned, its Jew captain was a National Socialist Party Nazi. Years later an-ex-refugee aboard-that-ship recalled such-a-symbolic anomaly as a "metaphysical-absurdity"... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4718#50081

Bearing-in-mind that in many instances shipped-human-cargo wasn't meant for salvation, yet "final-solution"! As old, crippled and non-conformist Jew undesirables were not to become-a-burden on the "safe-haven" enclave in the promised-land of the milk-n-honey. Lest we forget Altalena ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48790 ... in reflection on the wide ranging Zion-Nazi collaboration ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4737#50943 ... going-back to 1940s, when an-extreme in Zionist fundamentalists submitted a formal proposal to the Nazi diplomats in Beirut towards the political and military alliance with Hitler's Third Reich ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#47877

The offer was made by the radical-underground Lehi and Stern Gang terrorists, who prefer to be called "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel". Led by Avraham Stern, the radical Jew nationalist, who formally headed NMO (National Military Organisation), Irgun Zvai Leumi (Etzel). Renown for the brute terrorist actions versus Britain which caused a problem, or more-likely colluded with the upper WZO echelon in lieu of the annual-Jew-immigrant quota, using-weak economic-absorptive-capacity of the Zionist enclave to-prevent destitute-immigrants influx.

Whilst capitalist-Jews, bringing-in over £1,000 were welcomed over-the-quota. As-a-result 16,529 capitalists provided kosher-immigrants-source along with the economic-harvest-for-diabolical Zionism. As the capital-infusion generated-boom! Giving Zionist enclave an-artificial prosperity in-the-midst of the worldwide Depression. During July 6-15 in 1938, President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to deal with the Jew refugee problem. Yet Sochnut (Jewish Agency) delegation headed by Golda Meir (Meirson) ignored Nazis offer at $250 per head, to allow abandoned Jews to emigrate to countries others than Palestine.

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4747#50353
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 12 August 2006 4:32:59 PM
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On February 1st, 1940, the United Jewish Appeal executive-vice President Henry Montor refused-to-intervene on-behalf of-a-shipload of Jew refugees stranded on the Danube river! As he blatantly stated that ..."Palestine cannot-be-flooded with-old-people or any-such-other (Jew) undesirables". Bearing-in-mind that the wealthy Jews could emigrate at the time from Germany to countries of their choosing. Whilst destitute-Jew-lesser brethren lacked essential funds to-pay the exuberant visa-n-voyage cost! A way to-escape Zionist spun calamity in reflection on the present-day-mayhem in Lebanon.

Versus opulent-Jew-émigrés arrived in Palestine to receive-due-payment for the goods-sold. Thanks to the fiscal-Jew-ingenuity, extended-via-devious Ha'avara (wealth-transfer) scheme-operations in-many directions as-an-attraction for bourgeoisie Jews. For whom-it-was the least-painful way-of-shipping an extorted-wealth out-of-Germany. Though controversy over the Zion-Nazi pact continued angrily to-be debated unti1 1935. In terms of the overall German-Jewry's massive-wealth-transfer, Ha'avara-Bank by no-means was decisive, yet utmost-crucial for Zionism to succeed, as 60% of all the capital-invested in Palestine during Aug-1933 to Sept-1939 period, derived-via-such a fruitful-collaboration with Nazis ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4718#50077

It is historical-fact that in 1941, and again-in 1942, Nazis Gestapo offered all European Jews transit-to-Spain, if they would relinquish their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: (a) none-of-deportees to move-on from Spain to Palestine; and (b) all the deportees to-be transported subsequently from Spain to USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with the entry visas arranged by the capitalist Jews living there; and (c) $1,000 ransom for each Jew family to-be furnished by the Sochnut (Jewish-Agency), payable upon the arrival of the refugees family at the Spanish border (at the rate of 1000 families daily).

Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey, received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for deportees, was based on the agreement between the Gestapo and Mufti. Yet again aloof-Jew-leaders answer was downright-negative, with the following comments: (a) only Palestine would-be considered as a destination for the deportees; (b) European Jews must accede-to-suffering and death greater-in-measure than the other nations, in-order that the victorious-allies-agree to a "Jewish-State" at the end of the war; (c) No ransom will-be ever-paid for destitute Jews.
Posted by Leo Braun, Saturday, 12 August 2006 4:38:29 PM
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