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The Forum > Article Comments > Legal abuse of animals > Comments

Legal abuse of animals : Comments

By Katrina Sharman, published 21/6/2006

Discussion about animal rights is fast moving into the mainstream.

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Australia has yet to recognise the rights of its native wildlife to even survive extinction because we prefer the developers and loggers rights above the species that make Australia the unique island that it is.
Examples like Tasmania's use of 1080 and the incredibly prolonged and painful death that occurs to her native animals does not seem to have any impact on the psyche of the Australian people. Loss of habitat right across all Australian states is not being dealt with in a sustainable way, which will lead to continued massive extinction of wildlife across the entire country.
As much as I would like to think that people are now becoming more aware of the dire straits that will engulf the native animal population, it is still deemed as not newsworthy enough for our main stream newspapers to report on it with any sort of urgency. Add to that the involvement of business and religious organisations paying for propaganda to be published against the Greens and any environmental parties and we have no bloody show.
When a large part of the community and most of its leaders have decided that if you care about animals, the saving of the trees and different habitats, you are a whacko, what hope....?
I do agree that people are becoming more interested in the way the animals we eat are being treated, but I find it amazing that we can discuss live exports, the painful killing of whales, and raise certain animals rights over others....it is time to recognise the rights of all animals to be treated in a humane and decent manner and for our future generations to be able to see for themselves the animals for which Australia is so famous.
Posted by Janine, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:09:43 PM
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The author is a well respected international expert in this new and thus provocative legal area. She does not strike one as a fanatic, but rather as an adventurer and innovator of good sense. Anything she states on the subject is worthy of attention. It is perhaps because I am an unashamed carnivore who happens to know the autor that I myself can bring a balanced attitude to what she has to say. An important piece for sensible people. Iudex
Posted by iudex, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:17:46 PM
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There is a program in the Netherlands that allows people to adopt a chicken and this seems to have worked very well for the past 3 or 4 years. I wonder if this is feasible in Australia as well.

The action program helps the farmers as well as the chickens. Shame this site isn't in English http://www.adopteereenkip.nl/ but the general idea is to pay a certain annual amount (about $50) to adopt a chicken, and in return, once a month you can pick up your eggs from your nearest health food shop. The farmer still owns the chicken but the eggs are all yours.

The chickens live in excellent conditions, have a great life on a farm, are being organically fed and kept and you will be able to check on your chicken via webcam (example of video on the website). You can also visit the farm.

You can adopt a chicken, give one as a present, or earn a chicken by opening a bank account at a certain bank. Pay for the chicken annally.

When you adopt a chicken it will not only benefit the animal but also organic farming in general, because part of your adoption fee goes towards Biologica, the Dutch Organic/Biologic agriculture/farming organisation. This organisation keeps an eye on the quality of the products and helps educating and advicing farmers on all of their organic farming.

There is also a similar 'adopt an apple tree' program, where, obviously, you can pick up your apples but the tree remains in the farmer's possession.

The program is meant to extend to benefit other animals/fruits/vegies as well.
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:21:01 PM
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I grew up on farms and refuse to eat meat for that very reason - the cruelty to the beasts bred to be killed and eaten make me sick.

Horse racing should be abolished because no-one ever asked the horses if they want some stupid human on their backs while they are forced to run around in circles with other horses while being whipped. But the rich and famous love torture of horses.

The brutal torture of sea creatures has turned me off eating any sort of seafood except the occasional fake stuff in my pasta.

Live exports of animals is grotesque and who on earth would want ships full of sheep and cattle floating around the seas dying of disease and hunger, being dumped in the sea to kill the waters and poison the animals in the sea only to have the survivors die a slow and terrible death at the other end.

And who in their right mind would gloat when a 500 lb bomb is dropped on a house with 6 people murdered?

Or when they see children behind razor wire screaming and weeping in terror as the guards spray them with tear gas and water cannons while bashing them with batons?

What about having another pizza while 30,000 children die of starvation every day? These children die in silence too tired to cry.

Who on earth would want to be cruel to an animal - kill them decently and quickly and feed the starving children instead of turning away or dropping bombs on them.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 22 June 2006 2:31:31 AM
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It has always been a puzzle to me (and I have lived with one for more than twenty years) how vegetarians can get all teary about the conditions in which animals-we-eat are kept, but at the same time get all stroppy when I suggest that keeping animals as pets is also a form of despicable cruelty.

We recognized more than a century ago that keeping humans in slavery was not a very nice thing to do. The reason for that is that the slave-owner effectively deprives the slave of their ability to live a life of freedom, and freedom is something that we value very highly. Just think of the number of wars that have been fought in its name.

Imagine yourself in the position of a domestic pet. It is slavery, pure and simple.

Deprived of the ability to think or act for yourself, you are at the whim and command of another. Some owners may be kind, and feed you well and often, some may be cruel and beat you. But underneath it all, your free will has been taken from you, your contact with your peers is eliminated or restricted, and none of the basic freedoms that we take for granted is afforded you.

How would you feel?

I know many animal-owners who protest their indefensible position by saying “Ah, but Rover (or Tiddles or Fluffybunny) has such a good life – look, you can see he's happy and just loves me to death”.

I have two words for them: Stockholm Syndrome.

Treating animals with cruelty, in whatever form, demeans us as human beings.

Eating animals for food seems to me to be a far more honest act than keeping domestic pets, which is an exercise in mass self-deception
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 22 June 2006 9:13:40 AM
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Pericles,
I think that if I had the choice between being eaten or being part of a family, I’d choose the latter.

Out of interest, are you suggesting to outbreed pets altogether?
Even though I do hear your opinion on pets, and I agree with things like stopping live export of animals and other cruelty, I’m personally fine with people ethically keeping pets; this includes that pets are free to display their own natural behaviour. I can’t see a problem, really, if pets are being treated with lots of respect, given what they need and loved for who they are.

For instance, dogs living in the wild live in packs and will have developed a natural pecking order. In a home, the dog adapts naturally because they develop a hierarchy in where the owner is the ‘top dog’. For the dog, this feels all very natural- the only difference is that the top dog is a human, not a dog. The leader of a pack will bite the others in the back when they are out of line and growl at them. The responsible human owner of a dog will use their voice to give it a command if needed.

We can all do ‘something’ towards improving animal conditions. Insist on quality of life for the animals. For example, buy free-range eggs or find out about which butchers sell cruelty-free animal products, animals that are not kept in factory conditions etc.

For me, it is important to be realistic about the issue- to expect or insist on all people to become vegetarians is never going to happen. To work with the idea that people will remain omnivores is a more effective option. We can then work towards things like try getting people to eat less meat, to stop exporting animals, to aim for quality of life for animals etc and as Marilyn says, kill them decently and quickly.

People will never give up pets. It is more effective to fight for tighter laws against animal cruelty then it is to fight for outbreeding pets.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 22 June 2006 2:27:16 PM
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Celivia, in preferring slavery to death ("the choice between being eaten or being part of a family") you would be of a mind with the vast majority of slaves transported from Africa from the seventeenth century onward. It doesn't mean they found it a satisfactory choice to have to make.

It is hardly relevant to the issue though, since the question I was asking was, isn't it preferable to be free? Very few household pets are candidates for the cooking pot anyway, so "animals-for-food" and "animals-as-slaves" are two separate issues.

And yes, I am suggesting we "outbreed" pets completely. Except that in my words, it would be that we make the keeping of animals for recreational or work purposes illegal, and punishable by a fine, imprisonment or both.

A quick walk through the zillions of web sites dedicated to the eradication of cruelty to pets shows a consistent theme. Here's a typical excerpt from thepetitionsite.com discussing an act of animal cruelty:

"Animal abuse by itself should be punished in the same manner as similar treatment towards a human. Please don't forget that animal abusers often "graduate" to human victims. How do you think Jeffrey Dahmer got his start?" [Jessica Cresseveur, 18th June]

If people are encouraged to believe that humans are somehow permitted to enslave animals for their own selfish needs, it is but a short step for them to think that they have the power of life and death over them too.

Think of it this way. We are visited by aliens from a planet where there are no domestic pets. What would you say to them when they asked “why do enslave animals for your private emotional gratification?” How would you explain keeping a dog on a leash, locking hamsters in a hutch, or imprisoning birds in a cage simply because they are colourful and can sing? Doesn't your heart lurch every time you think of the difference between the lorakeets that fly past in the morning, and the canary confined in the corner of the living room?
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 22 June 2006 3:29:37 PM
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Pericles, of course it is preferable for a pet to be free as opposed to being a slave. It just depends on your point of view though- I do not see dogs and cats as being slaves. I think I am a slave to my two cats, lol.

I think my point about slavery and death is relevant when we look at the options you have to offer pets:
a) Live with a family who loves you as a companion (or as you call it, ‘slave’)
b) Be outbred and go into extinction. You will have no offspring.
c) Be set free, meaning be dumped somewhere in the wilderness to fence for yourself even though you have lost the ability to look after yourself. (Many animals have been domesticated for so long that they -as a species- have totally lost the ability to look after themselves; they need people to care for them).
Perhaps options b and c will be just as hard to justify to an alien as option a.

So, although I am against caging animals because caged animals aren’t able to act in a natural way, I believe ‘banning’ people from caging animals is not likely to happen because people in almost every culture on earth have been keeping and domesticating animals throughout the centuries. It's a thiong that humans have always done. They are not likely to give up animals, no matter what the viewpoints of animal activists are.
Therefore it would be more realistic and effective to take steps to improve the quality of caged animals. Lots can be done.

For example, to explain my point, lobbying for regulating/increasing the minimum size of a cage will be more successful than lobbying for making the keeping of pets illegal and outbreeding the animal plus jail sentences to perpetrators. How would we justify (to aliens if you like) that we locked up an old lady who was hiding her canary?
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 23 June 2006 9:40:42 AM
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PERICLES..... 'WHAT' ? cough.. splutter.. choke.... barf.....

Are you serious ? "keeping domestic pets is slavery" ? I'm incredulous.

Surely you were tongue in cheek there....right ?

Further, you clearly don't have a pet cat :)

There are so many philosophical holes in the idea of 'pets/cruelty/slavery/raised for meat' thing, as expressed here its impossible to know where to begin.

Marilyn.... you need to get out more. Like BEYOND the farm to where your freaking LIFE depends on obtaining protein via the Mouse deer or Goanna or wild pig or deer which you manage to catch. etc etc...

There is so much psycho therapy needed for some of you that you would keep every graduate class of Harvard Psychology school going for 3 lifetimes.

-Eating animals is 'evil' (or, the difference between life and death or at least serious disease for many)
-Domestic pets is 'slavery' (or, teamwork in mutual surivival?)

Pericles.. PLEASE tell me that you don't believe that rot you trotted out about animal slavery.. puh-LEASE... (unless you were trying to redeem slavery) I really would like to continue to consider you a thinking debating opponent. (or at least condemn the Commonwealth Bank for the same reasons in relation to my mortgage)

All I can think of is Romans 1:20 (a-gain)

"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—"

The extent that some contributors thoughts have reached is truly mind numbing and bewildering. "Make_it_up_as_you_go" -is on steriods AND Turbo.

P.S. Apart from God,'rights' ....do not exist, only privilages granted by 'power' do.

Under God, you have a 'right'

-to your legally acquired property.
-not to have your wife/husband/donkey/dog/cat/land lusted after by another man/woman.
-for honest testimony about you.
-right to be respected by your children.
-Not to be murdered
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 June 2006 7:42:54 AM
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Boaz, I'm absolutely serious in my view that keeping animals as pets is abhorrent. Describing it as slavery is the closest I can get to the concept of a person exercising absolute authority over a defenceless creature. Particularly defenceless, I might add, not only through their size, but also their inability to talk, and therefore to discuss and argue. At least African slaves in America had the blues.

You suggest there might be "philosophical holes in the idea", but fail to elaborate - would you care to mount some form of defence of your position that is more than simple cat-lover's bluster?

Your Romans 1:20 reference is highly obscure to one not trained in your method of thinking. And the list of "rights" afforded to you by your God omits any reference to the spaying of cats to prevent them from inconveniently breeding. And don't let's even think about what horse owners allow to be done to their animals in the name of "sport".

For all the huffing and puffing, no-one has yet provided a sane and moral justification for what we do to domestic pets, save the irrelevant "we've always done it", and "they wouldn't know how to survive in the wild". Well, whose fault is that?

Without demand (for pets), there will be no supply. In one generation, we can put this barbaric practice behind us, if only we woke up to the fact that it is a practice that degrades us.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 25 June 2006 6:46:15 PM
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Pericles, let me sum up my view, for your clarity, because you seem to like repetition.

My view is that it will be more effective to take gradual, realistic, practical steps so that we can improve the quality of the lives of pets than it is to insist on radical laws to eradicate the keeping of pets.
My view is that these are unrealistic expectations and will cause resistance from people/communities.

Taking a practical, gradual approach is like being a guide dog leading the blind person to the right destination. Some things will improve and in time, more things will improve.
Demanding unrealistic, extreme changes is like being a lamb entangled in barbed wire. It’s getting nowhere and nothing will improve.

BTW is it relevant who’s fault it was that pets depend on people? The fact is, that they do. We have to deal with facts to solve problems.

Also, I do think it is relevant to take into regard that people have historically always either domesticated or hunted animals because this does strongly indicate that domesticating animals is interweaved into human nature and cultures.
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 25 June 2006 11:38:28 PM
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Any repetition, Celivia, was for Boaz's benefit. I think we understand each other perfectly.

But since you have introduced a couple of new angles, I feel that I need to respond.

>>BTW is it relevant who’s fault it was that pets depend on people?<<

Well yes, it is. As a society we condemn the drug pusher more readily than the drug user, and this follows the same logic. Remove the root cause, and you remove the temptation.

The cycle of dependency - as with drugs - needs to be broken by some specific action, otherwise it will continue to drift along through sheer inertia. If we took a stand and said "this is not right, it must stop", at least we set a benchmark towards which we can strive.

>>it is relevant ... that people have historically [domesticated] animals because this does strongly indicate that domesticating animals is interweaved into human nature and cultures.<<

Historically, people have done many things that we are now ashamed of. Drowned witches, exacted indulgences from gullible peasants, hanged people in the town square, conducted cockfights, bear-baited for public amusement - the list is almost endless. Habit doesn't make it right, however, and over time we have become sufficiently civilised to recognize this, and have done something about it.

I am suggesting that it is time that we recognized that keeping domestic animals is in the same category of emotional self-indulgence, and needs to be itself consigned to history.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 26 June 2006 3:44:04 PM
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Pericles “keeping animals as pets is abhorrent. Describing it as slavery is the closest I can get to the concept of a person exercising absolute authority over a defenceless creature”

That is an absolute hoot. I am wheezing in pain with laughter.

Obviously Pericles' assessment of the enslavement of critters was not formulated around owning a cat!

Anyone who has will confirm, no one owns a cat. Cats own their keepers!

I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people.

Those who do seem to me to be deranged simpletons who lack real challenges and issues in their lives, they have lived a pandered existence where some hireling else sorted out all the crap before they awoke and tidied up after the precious wallies went to bed.

Like PETA who seem to believe their precious opinions should be thrown down the throats of Australian pastoralists and graziers. Then the anti-live sheep export mob, to say nothing of the “animal liberationists” who destroyed the fur industry.
Fortunately what I do is unlikely to ever come into contact with such low life scumbags but if they did, I would happily give them a run for their money.
That said, following Abercrombie and Fitch’s acquiescence to PETA I have vowed never to buy a suit from them now or in the future. Anyone can boycott anything and a boycotting the PETA supporter group is what I can and will continue to do.

As for those who lived on farms and can no longer eat meat, good, your withdraw of demand makes the price of cuts cheaper for the rest of us, enjoy your lentils.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 26 June 2006 4:32:26 PM
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You should know by now Col that it is my sole objective in life to amuse you. Sorry about the wheezing, though, you should have someone look at that.

As master of putting words in others' mouths, though, you could do a lot better than this effort.

>>I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people<<

No suggestion has been made that they should have democratic rights, as you well know. Nor should it be necessary to claim democratic rights in order to avoid being oppressed. Poor reasoning - not up to your usual standard of verbal bullying at all.

I take my hat off to your protest against Abercrombie and Fitch though, whose share price is down an impressive ten percent since you withdrew your custom. I presume you have applied the same boycott to product from the entire Australian Wool Growers Association, for the same fatuous reason. Those polyester suits are ok in winter, I'm told, but uncomfortable - and a little smelly - come the warm weather.

But never mind, your cat will still love you.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 26 June 2006 11:48:57 PM
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Yes..I find I'm rather fixated now to this thread, as it contains hitherto unminded gems of philosophical fascination .. and the Gem of most worth is Pericles.

Col...Hi5 about the cat. We have 2, and as u said NO_ONE 'owns' a cat.
They choose where they will reside. When they offer generous affection it is because they want to. My older one snuggles up near my head each night, and last night was my very welcome hot water bottle. (The wife worked very late)

Dogs are pack animals, in the wild or in domestic situations, so the concept of 'slavery' is ludicrous. When in domestic life, they are subject to the 'pack' and alpha male (us) and they guard territory and know their peck order just as in the wild.

As for Horses and Budgies... I am more sympathetic to Pericles argument. A horse must be 'broken' b4 it is useful to humans. When you see horses in full running/kicking exuberance without riders, you can sense that from which they were 'broken'.

Budgies are meant to fly, not be caged. So yes, I can agree on some levels. But cats and dogs ? Never. unless of course their stupid human owners treat them in a manner incompatable with their natural tendencies. Our pus hunts down rats and mice. Dogs bark at strangers.
Very helpful.

In any case. "on what grounds" would you suggest that animals have 'rights' ? i.e. the right not to be enslaved by humans ?
You are of course appealing to something etched in stone ? :) rather than a figment of your European cultural background and that all pervading principle "It seems right to me" ?

Meet you all on the 'cultural identity' thread.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 6:43:45 AM
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Pericles “I just do not get it with some people who feel that lower orders of animals and critters have similar needs for democratic representation as people”

I should have identified this statement as not pertaining to what you said, uniquely but to other posts whose “deranged panderings etc… “. So accept my apology in drafting. I should have placed that statement further down my post, in different sequence.

Polyester suits? hardly Pericles, certainly not since the very early 1970’s and even then drawing up short of “safari attire”. Recent offerings from Calibre on Collins were found wanting, so I favoured Fletcher Jones just a few days ago, for a suitable grey pinstripe and outrageous tie.

David_B

I dislike the idea of keeping budgies in cages, although my daughter both enjoyed keeping pet cockatiels, for which I built an extravagant aviary.

I am not a dog lover and have never burdened myself with the duty of care for one. Certainly owners of vicious breeds should be hoisted on their own petard and suffer at the teeth of their “pets”, which they use to terrorise neighbourhoods with (or I am sure, in some cases, use to make up for their own anatomical deficiencies).

Cats are wonderful companions, we have an interloper staying, temporarily, who has set his own tyrannous rule upon the entire household.

Gold fish, now who would suggest a bill of rights for goldfish, by the time they have circled the document once, they have forgotten where the beginning was and have to start again.

Whales and Dolphin are much like dogs, certainly in intellectual prowess. I see no huge problem in people making commercial gain from them, the critter does not seem any worse off for a regular feed, veterinary care and housing in exchange for the a few tricks. I do not enjoy circuses personally, but some do and if they are prepared to pay to see such tricks, then let them, I will save my money for my own preferred pursuits.

Rodents, of any sort, should be treated as vermin.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 1:57:17 PM
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Funny, Col Rouge, re the goldfish with their 3 second memory! But, seriously, fish need space, too!

Even though I do not agree with Pericles that pets like cats and dogs are slaves (what do you think about the point I made in my 2nd post about dogs as pack animals?), I think that conditions of ‘farm animals’ desperately should be improved.

I'd like to concentrate on big issues. ‘People owning pets is abuse’ is a debatable issue- the cruel treatment of farm animals is obvious.
There are animals in more need of help than the pampered pet. Although, pericles, I see what you mean by creating awareness.
I agree with Sharman that “Community education about the lives of animals has a crucial role to play…”

But it should not stop there- World Animal Day (WAD) is not being used to its full potential.

Now that we have said how terrible it is that animals are being legally abused, anyone want to brainstorm?

I am thinking that WAD could be used to select problems that, say, one farm animal faces e.g. factory pigs.
What are the problems and how can these be solved? Anti-factory ads and campaigns need to be shown all year after introducing the problem on WAD, but only awareness is not enough- we need to investigate the options for improvement and decide what specifically can be done to help ‘this’ animal. E.g. do people want to adopt an animal on WAD? Do they want to donate money to this cause? Throughout the year, encourage people to help. How do we help the farmers to improve conditions. We do not want to destroy the lives of farmers, who already have it tough enough. We want to make life easier for them as well as for the animals.

The next year on WAD, celebrate what has been achieved for the pigs and for their farmers, plan what else needs to be done and introduce the problems of another animal. Sometimes people don’t realize that doing something small is important too, like buying free-range eggs instead of caged eggs.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 29 June 2006 1:38:46 PM
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Celivia

Your posts are the most balanced on this thread - good work.

I agree we can each do our part in working towards humane treatment of animals. I buy free range eggs & meat - where I live in the Dandenong Ranges there are many choices for humanely farmed livestock and organic farming.

My current cat was adopted two years ago from an animal shelter after the sudden death from cancer by my 18 year old cat (he is still greatly missed). I also perform voluntary work at the same animal shelter.

I know that our respect for animals have greatly increased over the years - now we have desexing instead of the canvas bag with brick - in the country where I spent my childhood, drowning by this appalling method was the way unwanted litters were disposed of.

The unconditional love I have received from animal friends is humbling indeed.
Posted by Scout, Friday, 30 June 2006 8:51:29 AM
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That's progress, scout. Stop drowning the little perishers and "desex" them instead.

I would like to know how you justify this position, which is effectively denying the creature its normal life attributes.

I know that we humans value sexual activity in a different way to many animals, but to deprive them the right to reproduce seems a little self-indulgent on our part. Is it simply to ease our conscience a little, in that it is slightly less overtly cruel than the drowning-in-a-sack routine?

But on reflection, you are right in one sense, and that is that any progress is positive. It does beg the question, however, of how much longer do we have to evolve as humans before we realize that it isn't just about drowning them or cutting off their bits, but the whole concept defies common sense.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 30 June 2006 12:21:38 PM
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I don’t get it, Pericles.

You said: “And yes, I am suggesting we "outbreed" pets completely. Except that in my words, it would be that we make the keeping of animals for recreational or work purposes illegal, and punishable by a fine, imprisonment or both.”

How are we supposed to do that if pets continue to multiply? How are we supposed to stop keeping pets and outbreed them when they can’t be dissexed?
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 30 June 2006 1:44:11 PM
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Pericles

You appear to be merely trolling by suggesting that drowning of unwanted litters is preferable to de-sexing.

You posts on other threads are generally of a high standard and reasonable, however, I find your POV on domestic animals irrational and therefore, not worthy of debate.

I have stated what I do to assist with the care of domestics animals, if you care so much about domestic animals just what do you do to help?

Besides wind up people who genuinely care.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 1 July 2006 10:40:30 AM
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Scout, I am truly sorry that you cannot accept that it is possible to love animals for what they are rather than what we have turned them into.

>>You appear to be merely trolling by suggesting that drowning of unwanted litters is preferable to de-sexing.<<

Listen, I think that applied to domestic perts, both are barbaric. Choosing between them is like offering the choice between gas chamber and laboratory experimentation.

>I have stated what I do to assist with the care of domestics animals, if you care so much about domestic animals just what do you do to help?<<

I don't keep them, full stop.

I do not keep them in cages, feed them manufactured gunk, or cut off their organs in order to satisfy some selfish urge to control their lives for my personal gratification.

If it were illegal to keep animals in captivity, then the demand for them would disappear. We could then treat their control in the same way as with other wild species - some culling, some desexing, depending upon the particular need. We don't have any particular problems with other animals living wild, why should the freeing of captive animals be different?

I fail to see that it is more irrational to believe that this fixation with animal enslavement is acceptable behaviour than to believe that it is more honest and consistent for us to set them free.

All the "problems" involved in divesting ourselves of this unnatural activity is of our own making.

>>just what do you do to help? Besides wind up people who genuinely care.<<

Excuse me, genuinely care about what?

Keeping animals in cages is a feature of caring? Desexing them simply to prevent them from being a nuisance by inconveniently reproducing is a feature of caring? Keeping them on the end of a stretch of leather as you take them for a "walk" is a feature of caring?

I am certain that we will soon evolve past this somewhat primitive stage.
Posted by Pericles, Saturday, 1 July 2006 9:13:40 PM
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Pericles

I agree that caging animals is wrong. My animal companions are not caged. Their long lives and the love and protection they have given me indicate happy creatures.

I disagree with you regarding desexing - it is no more detrimental for animals than it is for humans. My former cat lived to 18 years - he was very happy and loving for all of those 18 years.

I am sorry you don't enjoy the love of a pet. They are far more reliable than any human I have ever known. At the aged care home I used to work at - pets were brought in regularly for the wellbeing of the residents - both animals and humans clearly enjoyed these encounters.

You ask what I care about - I care about the well being of animals. I clean out cages at an animal welfare shelter. I care for my cat responsibly - she was an abandoned animal who now has a good home. She also provides a service - she is an excellent mouser (although she is kept indoors at night). Finally, I buy free range animal products.

You still haven't explained what ACTION you take regards animal welfare apart from condemning other people for seeing the situation differently to you. You are sounding like Boaz et al on this topic.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic - I am not interested in a p*ssing contest - which is all this can amount to as I believe you are very single minded on this issue.

No doubt we will cross paths on another thread at some future time.

Take care, Pericles.
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:17:54 AM
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Pericles, do you agree that farm animals are in much bigger need of help than house pets? I am interested in what kind of action you can think of to improve life for animals on farms. All ideas can be helpful.

You ask “ We don't have any particular problems with other animals living wild, why should the freeing of captive animals be different?”
Why? Because there are animals that have been brought into Australia which are a big threat to the Australian Wildlife.

Take cats- there are HUGE problems concerning feral cats.
Unsterilised cats multiply rapidly, become feral, have three litters a year, and feral cats have more kittens per litter than house cats; they overproduce due to the high mortality rate of kittens.
To think that ‘dissexing some and culling some’ is going to solve the problems is rather impractical and naive. We would need many teams of full-time cat catchers and vets to 'dissex some' and we would need to build the Great Wall of Australia to 'cull some'. Btw didn't you mention that dissexing is cruel- and now you suddenly give this as an option? What is it to be: dissex or not dissex?
Would you really want to be responsible for the killing of our native animals and the suffering of cats?

Huge numbers of healthy cats (dogs too) are being killed since the RSPCA has a kitten overload because people have failed to dissex their animals.

I mentioned suffering because I once watched a documentary on the feral cat problem in Australia. Life for a feral cat is really tough- they have a terrible life! Mortality rates among feral kittens is very high as I said- about half of them die.
Nearly all feral cats have internal and external parasites.
Many cats become blind due to untreated eye infections.

The two cats I have now were a present from my husband 10 years ago, who were at death row at our local pound. I am glad I can be there to care for them.
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 2 July 2006 12:17:12 PM
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Yep. Looks like we will have to disagree. I'm unlikely to change your mind, you're unlikely to change mine. It is fair to say that topics like this are generally emotion-driven rather than logic-driven, which is pretty barren turf for mind-changing anyway.

One parting shot for you though Celivia. Do you not see the similarity of your statements:

>>Take cats- there are HUGE problems concerning feral cats. <<

and

>>Huge numbers of healthy cats (dogs too) are being killed since the RSPCA has a kitten overload <<

Both problems, feral and domestic, appear to be "huge".

You and I can do little as individuals to solve the feral problem, but we can take a stand against adding to the problem of domestic pets.

Just in case either you or Scout still think I am being frivolous, or simply being contentious for the sake of it, please understand that I am completely serious. To me, the fact that we consider it blameless to keep pet animals is a permanent blot on the escutcheon of our humanity. One that, I am convinced, will one day be seen to be an aberration.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 3 July 2006 2:38:06 PM
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Hey Pericles

Just a quick note - you HAVE convinced me of one thing - that you are sincere in your beliefs regarding domestic pets. I did think for a while, maybe you were being flippant.

Also, I can understand your feelings. I'm not keen on caged birds and my personal jury is still out on aquariums. However, I love being around animals (which is why I try my best with volunteer work, I wish I could become vegetarian) - I long for the day I can afford to fence my property and share my life with a dog or two. I don't believe for second that my cat feels in anyway enslaved - rather the reverse. So we'll agree to disagree, Pericles - I would still like to know what action you are taking with regard to your POV on animals - I showed you mine....

Regards

Dianne
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 1:41:03 PM
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Ah, Pericles, I believe that we don’t disagree all that much, basically.
The main problem highlighted in the article is that animals are being legally abused, and we agreed that this is true.
We also agreed that we want things for animals to improve.

That’s the most important thing- “to improve conditions for animals”. That’s why I would like to see suggestions explored in a practical way. (An impractical way will do nothing for animals.)

While you are waiting for the rest of us (primitives) to evolve so that pets can, hopefully soon, be saved from slavery, I wonder if you, in the meantime, are willing to discuss or have suggestions to improve life for factory-farm animals.

Because you seem to be genuinely concerned about the suffering of animals, I, like Scout, would like to see your ideas and suggestions.
What do you think that can be done in a practical way to help improving conditions for farm animals without just saying that all people should be vegetarians? What can we do for the animals while waiting for meat eaters and farmers to evolve?
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 12:45:19 PM
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Thanks Scout and Celivia for an interesting exchange.

My solutions – as with many other perceived ills of the world – tend to fall into the realm of restricting or eliminating demand, rather than legislating for or against particular actions or activities.

There are very few historical models of government-managed behaviour that have worked, where the object has been to legislate the supply, rather than the demand. Prohibition in the US is a classic example, where attention to the supply-side created an entire criminal class. Early closing of pubs here had the same destructive power on family life, when it created the six o'clock swill.

Interestingly, the “war” on smoking has been waged on both fronts. On one hand, the constant stream of health warnings designed to lower demand, and on the other an increasing number of no-go zones, where smoking is forbidden. Yet if you were to take a poll on the number of ex-smokers who have quit recently, I believe you will find there is a preponderance of responses in the “I quit for health reasons” category over the “I quit because I couldn't smoke in the building” category.

Which is a long way round to saying that I'm sorry, I don't have a clue how to address issues of conditions for animals-for-food that would have a major impact. From a business point of view, if I were told to run my business a particular (presumably more expensive) way by the government, then I would expect some protection from other suppliers who did not have the same laws. And before you know it, we have a massive economic protection problem, funded by the taxpayer.

So the only real, lasting answer is to educate the public. Unfortunately, there will only ever be a few who will listen, even fewer who will understand, and a tiny proportion who will do anything about it.

And I hate to say it, but the likelihood is that they already are.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 7 July 2006 5:38:23 PM
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Pericles

I appreciate your candor on this topic.

Well, we the very few, will just have to keep on keeping on, both by how we behave as individuals (activism, volunteer work etc), continuing discussion on internet sites and supporting education (even the rather twee pet programs on TV help get the message across that we must treat animals with empathy and respect).

You would be aware that progress has been made even in the past 20 years, you would not be aware that I have progressed from being a believer in vivisection as a young (very scientific) child to an opponent of experimentation on animals today.

You have made me reflect on my attitude to animals and I believe I am making progress, although I am not ready to give up on my animal companions - I am far more aware of consequences than I used to be.

The human race has a long way to go in many areas (religion, racism, sexism, true democracy) before it can call itself humane.

Thanks for the discussion.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 8 July 2006 11:34:04 AM
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Pericles, you said: “So the only real, lasting answer is to educate the public. Unfortunately, there will only ever be a few who will listen, even fewer who will understand, and a tiny proportion who will do anything about it.”

I agree. Education about Animal Rights is of uttermost importance; education about these issues should start at a young age- introduced by parents and preschool teachers and carefully elaborated upon throughout the education system and through to communities.

As you mention, Scout, we have a long way to go in many areas. I notice, as my kids go through the education system, that issues like racism and sexism are being given some attention, but that the issue of Animal Rights has not come up – apart from one debating topic at primary school, which was “Animals should be caged” when my daughter was taking part in debating competitions.
Correct me if I’m wrong, perhaps there are schools (other than agricultural schools or schools in farming communities) that do discuss ‘Animal Rights’ in detail?

Practically, I am thinking: If parents discuss this issue at parents’ meetings, parents might induce some interest from teachers and other parents, who then could form an interest group.
E.g. when my kids were in primary school, I set up a small discussion group(me, myself, I, and a couple of other multiple personalities ;) -you wouldn’t believe the lack of interest) about Sexism in Children’s books as I took part in reading groups. Even though this didn’t have much influence, some interested and kind teachers let us check out and have a say in obtaining new books for the school library.

I am thinking that there are an incredible amount of children’s books 'staging' animals- it would make an interesting interest group to check and discuss how authors and illustrators ‘treat’ animals in their stories.
Perhaps there could be done something in the fundraising department as well? You never know what suggestions people come up with until you discuss it.
Thanks for the enjoyable discussion!
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 8 July 2006 4:36:44 PM
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The relative merits of keeping pets was, in general, entertaining, but bore little relevance to the original article by Ms Sharman. I think one of the points to be made is the world of difference between the protection accorded (by the authorities) to "companion" animals compared to that given to "farm ("food") animals. If you treated your cat or dog in any way approaching that in which pigs, sheep and cattle are treated, you would risk prosecution. Sow stalls, farrowing crates, "livestock" transports (with prior "curfews", which in animal speak means deprivation of food and water for many, many hours), no journey limita (animals transported from WA to Queensland), mulesing, appalling live exports (mostly on 20+ year old wrecks of ships to countries where there are no animal welfare safeguards such as we saw on "Sixty Minutes", battery hen cages, broiler sheds - the list is endless. I think it is a matter of perspective. "Companion animals" are more often than not loved and respected for themselves by their "enslavers", pity the hapless farm animals for being born into the wrong species. Some animals are definitely more equal than others, and the distinction is most obviously drawn by the RSPCA.
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 9 July 2006 10:04:35 PM
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Exactly, Nicky- the profits of owning a pet are the emotional benefits we value, while farm animals are being kept merely for economical profits- farming is a business and businesses care primarily about high production and high profits.

Although the RSPCA is not at all ignoring the issue, I think their hands are tied as long as under the current law, these practices are legal.
I don’t know much about laws and what can be done to change them, but I figure that the government won’t care as long as people don’t complain. If enough people would write to the government about this issue and demand the issue is given attention, then things might start to change.

But people won’t care to write to the government if communities are not being made aware what is really happening to our farm animals.

A better life for our farm animals without putting our hard working farmers out of business is something we all try to should aspire to. Farmers need to live, too, and they need our support as much as we need or want their produce/dairy/meat etc.

On mulesing sheep: anyone know if there is an alternative that stops fly strike? From what I know mulesing needs to be done or sheep will be eaten alive by flying insects. Spraying the overhanging skin needs to be repeated frequently and is not as effective, as far as I know.
I'm not really against mulesing if there is no better alternative.
I just think that it should be policed that mulesing be done by experts only and like in Europe, local anesthetic should be used.

Anyway, I'm off to complain to the government!
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 10 July 2006 11:44:14 AM
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Celivia

Thank you for pointing me to this post.

I am sorry the web pages were down.

They should be working now.

www.livexports.com
www.halakindmeats.com

There are many issues and little space so I will just answer a few questions.

1 Sheep> Wrong breed in the wrong country.

2 Extream people protesting against others eating meat and animals as pets hurts animals rather than helps.

3 Live exports sell our jobs to overeas destroying regional areas and jobs.

4 Intensive farming is cruel and causes diseases including bird flu.

5 The animal welfare act is over a hundred years old and even then its only recomneded codes of practise[ self regulated]

6 Many Ministers and polys are involved along with media gaints such as Murdoch[live exporter] Packers[ Live Expoters , Le Courts
[livexpoters] AWB live expoters]> Making it impossible to get the truth out to the public. John Howard made that possible three weeks after he was first elected]

7 Most of the people on the Animal Welfare boards have huge conflicts of interest.

8 RSPCA do not do the inspections for live exports or farm animals.

This is done by the DPI[State governments> More conflict of interests]

9 The Government mislead the public by saying Muslims require live animals . Despite the media R put out by the Muslims asking the Government to stop mis quoting and addmitt it is corperate greed through the trade dollar.
10. I read your comments and agree with you. If you ever have any time we would love to hear from you.

[ A Sincere Thank you Celivia ]
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 7 August 2006 7:56:44 PM
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One More Thing.

Voiceless are a very new voice in Animal Welfare.

I of course have spoken with the author of this post.

Brian Shermann and his daughters are good people who are being misinformed.

To stop live exports and intensive farming we must stand by our farmers.

Vicious attacks and demonstrations with people lying naked in street malls with pretend blood over them at the Australian Meat conference arranged by Animal Liberation does nothing other than get farmers ,Government and otherwise sympathetic public off side.

It is a fact that 96 percent of people eat meat. They should not be made to feel guilty about that. Its totally counter productive.

Until Animal Welfare groups support free range farms and farmers nothing will change except people will rightfully get sick to death of Animal Welfare groups.

Farmers are the back bone of this country and we need to introduce incentives and encouragement to go back to free range and slaughter here in Australia instead of the cruel live exports.

PETA ,Animals Australia, Animal Liberation all refuse to work with pale hkm because we support the main stream attitude of the RSPCA.

People should be able to eat meat but also insist the proccess is as humane as possible.

The other problem with these groups is like everything else in life.
That is it becomes all about raising funds.

I again urge urge Katrina, Brian and Ondine of Voiceles to be seen as a independant group.

Distance yourselves from anti meat eating and support free range farmers who are doing tbhe right thing.

There is no doubt you are sincere however you should be seen as totally independant from the people they are known to work with.

Your donations to groups is a more than generous gesture to the animals but the one hundred and twenty thousand per year would be better spent on ads to inform the public or a good court case.

Best wishes and Gods speed in your efforts to improve animal welfare.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 7 August 2006 9:14:01 PM
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Wendy, further to our discussion on the other list, what comes
through is that you really haven't the foggiest, when it comes
to the scene in regional West Australia or how live exports
affect this state. I live right in the middle of this region,
so see what is happening every day. Armchair idealists like
yourself, out of touch with reality here and offering no
practical solutions for farmers or their sheep, are not
much better then Peta and similar.

Let me repeat again, until it sinks in, there are NO
meatworks in WA that could be reopened for sheep. There are
NO staff for them either, as even now, meatworks can't find
staff and overseas staff have been limited by Govt.

Right now, in the middle of a drought here, its live exporters
who are moving livestock out of the state (700'000 in the last
60 days), paying farmers fair value (up to 5 times more then
what meatworks pay) The net result is a win for farmers
and a win for the sheep, as the animals arn't starving,
as are so many on drought stricken farms.

You really need to update yourself on how the trade has
changed in the last couple of years, but then you are too
far away to be in touch with reality. Old boats are being
scrapped, new boats have far better facilities, far better
then most feedlots in Australia. Space provisions apply
onboard, stun guns are being introduced to meatworks in
the Middle East, etc. etc.

Stop comparing what happened over East with what is happening
in WA, they are like chalk and cheese.

If Hugh Wirth wants to debate the issue, he is free to write
an article for OLO and we can discuss it openly.

What farmers and sheep need is practical results, not lots
of hot air and ill informed rhetoric.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 8 August 2006 9:26:19 AM
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Yabby

Its clear is you have not looked at Wendys ;posts. I am a farmer and I see great oportunitys.

Dont worry we will re build a few plants in WA.

www.halakindmeats.com
www.livexports.com

Nicky

The RSPCA CEOs are paid by RSPCA National by way of contract.
.
This money is Federal Government grant money.

Their cars and holidays the same deal. A non Government organisation?

RSPCA do not inspect farm animals such as live exports at all! The DPI do> Thats State Government >yet DR Hugh Wirth asks for funds towards ban live exports projects?

They have raised millions but there is a loop hole in so much as they donations do NOT have to go to what you donated it for?

The are answerable to nobody except maybe Abez ["special minister' and Shultz who report directly to John Howard.

Mark Vaile and Downer are the ones responsible for live exports TRADE, not Minister Mcgauran.

Hugh Wirth President of WSPCA AND President of RSPCA Australia ?, David Bowles President of RSPCA UK a question for you both?
Why did you both swear your support for live exports to continue to the Minister for ag at the same time you launched your ban live Exports funding appeal to the public.?
ITS WELL PAST TIME FOR A OPEN PUBLIC ENQUIRY INTO RSPCA NATIONAL

PETA Nicky are fund raisers. The Government meet with Animals Australia because they know they are easily discredited and extream with their refusual to support free range farmers.

Andrew Bartlett works with peta and Animals Australia only or people with non meat eating agendas.[ pity]

Extream people who refuse to support free range farmers do more harm to the animals than anybody because then the Government rightfully presents them to the public through the media as extream.

That does not help the animals nor farmers.

To the host distance yourself from peta and others and support free range and the farmers will support you.
Posted by Observer111, Wednesday, 9 August 2006 7:19:46 AM
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Observer, I have checked out the websites and what I see is lots
of dreaming and talk. I judge things by results. Fact is that
WA farmers quit around 7 million sheep a year, present meatworks
can cope with around half that amount, usually at values far
lower then Eastern States prices.

Fact is right now that the live trade matters hugely to WA
farmers and sheep. Fact is that they have lifted their game,
made many adjustments and the trade is conducted humanely,
with better conditions then in most Queensland feedlots.

Credit where credit is due and right now the reality is
that the live trade matters hugely to WA farmers and many
of the claims made in the 60 minutes report are from many
years ago. Take a video camera and go to any Australian
saleyard, meatworks, shearing shed or even old peoples
home, and you will see stuff happening that would make
for interesting tv footage and shock some people.

Personally I am against factory farming of pigs, chickens
etc, where animals spend their whole lives in bad conditions.
There is a huge difference to spending your whole life
in those conditions, compared to a couple of weeks on a
boat, where animals actually put on weight.

So Observer, its all about results, not dreaming.
Results for 4 million plus sheep a year, at values that
are sustainable. Nobody has put forward anything like that.
The situation in WA and Queensland are quite different
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 9 August 2006 9:53:54 AM
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Fact Is Yabby
You could not care less about Animal Welfare.
Its all just money money,
Fact is yabby Feed lots ae as cruel as live exports ALMOST.
Fact is they can be creek fed. Do even know the difference.?
Facts are yes it will take time to revert back to slaughtering all animals here in Australia yes I agree.

Fact is Yabby

Even the Muslims are saying they can be done here and THEY are the people taking them from WA in droves!

The real facts are intensive farming which includes feed lots instead of creek fed including all animals need to be put back to free range not only for animal welfare but disease.

Facts are as a farmer I can tell you its the corps that are into live exports the farmers just send them to market.

Facts are they will re open and re build plants in WA and other states as soon as possible.

Facts are I have been a farmer and my three generations before me and none of us would consider live exports.

We always slaughter locally because we are not barbaric and just after an extra quick five bucks an animal.

I also dont see why you have go at this woman and attack people who are working to put the jobs back in Australia and improve animal welfare .

Whats your Problem with that?

She never told you to stop your live exports now did she?

What she asked everybody was to look at the options.

I sat back and said to myself yeh this is a load of rubbish you are going on with.

Tell me are you a farmer because I am?
Posted by Observer111, Wednesday, 9 August 2006 2:43:45 PM
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Fact is Observer, that I do care about animal welfare, but
I also care about informed and intelligent comment, not
just lots of misinformed rhetoric.

If you care about animal welfare, then you have heaps
of feedlots, factory farms, neurotic pets locked up in
peoples apartments, hobby farmers who through ignorance
and neglect mistreat animals, those things make the live
sheep trade out of West Australia look directly virtuous
lol. If you are against the live cattle trade out of
Queensland, then fine, thats your issue over there for
you guys to sort out, but leave us here in the West
out of it!

Fact is yes I have a farm, fact is that by far the
majority of farmers in WA support the live trade, but they
agree that it needs to be done humanely, which is what all
the large changes have been all about recently.

Fact is that the difference between the live trade prices
and meatworks prices here can be up to 40$ a head, as
meatworks pay not a cent more then they have to, significantly
less then in the East. The live trade thus puts a floor in
the market and many survive in farming because of that
difference. 40$ by 1 thousand head a year, is enough to
live on after all.

I had a go at Wendy, as I was getting tiered about hearing
her claims about how evil the live trade was, when she clearly
knows little about the live trade from WA. Perhaps she should
clarify herself in future and mention that its the live cattle
trade from Queensland that she is against. Thats fine, so
make that clear and leave us West Australian farmers, who
overwhelmingly support the live trade for very good reasons,
out of it.

So many armchair critics attack the trade, usually they happen
to know very little about it. They are free to come and build
their plants here, market the meat as they think is possible,
nowhere are sheep and lambs cheaper then in WA. Until that
time is reached, leave us alone lol.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 9 August 2006 7:51:03 PM
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Yabby from the Arm Chair
The Fact is the prices vary from shipment to shipment week to week andeven day to do. Normall the difference is between 5 to 20 per head. The fact is live exports have put the prices up to the Australian public to the point many go without.Even if it were 7100.00 dollars a head NOTHING justifes such cruelty.

Media Release

24 February 2006

Australian Muslims Are Against Animal Cruelty

The President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Dr, Ameer Ali
Today called on the Australian media not to act irresponsible in misinforming the
Australian public about the real reasons for live exports.

Dr. Ameer Ali said that Muslims are primarily concerned to ensure that the
Animal is slaughtered in accordance with the Islamic Shariah, ad that can be
Done in Australia under the Australian Government supervised Muslim Slaughter
Program (AGSMS) and we want the Australian public to know that we do not
Agree to animal cruelty.

He further said that Muslims in the Middle Eastern countries readily accept
frozen and chilled lamb and mutton from Australia, once it is Halal certified
under the program. Last year Australian lamb meat exports to the Middle East
was up 36% to a record 14,052 Tonnes, and Australian mutton meat export to
the Middle east was up 24% in the same period to 36,051 Tonnes (ref. Farmonline
News 1 Feb 2006). This represents the equivalent of more than 2 million sheep
which were slaughtered in Australia for Middle Eastern Muslim customers.

Dr. Ali said that the Australian Muslims does not support the cruel treatment of
animals prior to slaughter. That has been documented in Egypt as the Qur` an
dictates that animals should be treated with kindness.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 10 August 2006 2:32:31 PM
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Wendy,
thanks for the links, they do work now and I admire you for the worthwhile work you do. I’m glad about the Muslims’ support on the issue of animal cruelty. About a year ago they showed some footage on TV about sheep transports and I was shocked about the cruelty.
I found the Voiceless website as well about animal laws- very important. I read their 5 point challenge and already ‘pass’ 4 of them but sin on , partly - the leather/suede products. I like leather/suede boots and shoes and like the leather look; I also have a leather sofa and thought that leather and suede are just by-products form meat production. I’d never have bought or will buy fur products though because these animals are only bred for their fur.
About the live shipping- if it’s true that it has greatly been improved, I’d like to see some evidence of that- does anyone have any articles that discuss this, or a website perhaps? I imagine that no matter how improved the shipping is going to be, if the journey is a very long distance then it can be really stressful for the animals. Perhaps if this is the only solution, then there can be rest and recover stops where animals can go on land for a few days and the floors can be cleaned before the animals get on board again. Some might laugh at this idea- what do I know hehe.

Back on track, in the meantime I’ve told MP Peter McGauran about my concerns about the treatment of farm animals in ‘factory farms’.
Observer, was this the wrong PM to write to about this as well? Who do you suggest I’d write to about factory farming?
2B continued
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 10 August 2006 3:32:33 PM
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I also contacted the Dutch adopt a chicken’ site (they also have adopt a pig, an apple tree etc options now, so they’ve extended their range) and asked them if they would be willing to advice other counties about the setting up of something like the adopt a chicken idea. I also suggested having an English translation so it’s possible for other counties to find out about this program and follow the idea. They replied to say that they would be willing to help. I then wrote to the RSPA about it and the reply was that they like this idea and it will be considered by the management for discussion. I have to admit, I do not know enough about farming and the specific needs of Australian farmers to see if this could work in Australia; I’ll leave that for others to decide.

What angers me too is that there are counties like Canada that still allow the baby seal hunt to continue. I hope that Australia is one of the countries that boycott the import of these pelts. Does anyone know if Australia boycotts these pelts? I suppose we do. I think this boycott should be extended to boycotting all of Canada’s seafood until they end the seal hunts. As long as countries like Norway, Germany and China still offer a market for the pelts, other countries that do care will have to be firm on this issue.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 10 August 2006 3:34:09 PM
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Celivia, there is lots in the press about live exports, but its
mainly in the WA rural press, as thats where most of the sheep
live trade originates from. The Countryman has lots of stories,
including letters from Peta nutcases etc, but they only have
a pay online version. Their editor, Cameron
Morse, actually just did a trip on one of the boats to check things
out for himself and wrote a huge report, over a number of weeks.
Perhaps you could email him and be really nice and he might send
you a free copy of it :)

Interesting that Wendy thinks that the live sheep trade makes
meat too expensive for some locals. Farmers here receive about
50-60$ per head from the live sheep trade, or just over 2 bucks
a kilo carcass weight. From the local meatworks on today's price
they receive about 1.10 a kg carcass weight. I wonder what Wendy
actually understands about farming, if she thinks that farmers don't
have lots of costs and can run farms when they receive 1.10 a kg
for meat. What do cities provide for $1.10? I note thats carcass
weight, not live weight. On a live weight basis, sheep sent to
meatworks here are worth about 500$ a tonne, about the price of
fertiliser.

The footage used on most of the animal activist websites is extremely old and distorted. Richard Carleton got sucked in and
rehashed alot of it. Yes there used to be some cowboy operators,
as there can be in any industry. After the Cormo Express incident,
new laws were brought in which tightened up the whole trade. As
a result, old boats are being or have been scrapped, new modern
vessels have been and are being built, there have been huge
changes. To deny that all this has been happening suits the cause
of those with a bee in their bonnet about this, but then they don't want us to eat meat or use leather either. Fact is we all die
eventually, even humans get chewed up by the worms, like it or not.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 10 August 2006 5:16:55 PM
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Yo Yabby

Lets try to get something positive out of these posts instead of being at logger heads.

You said you were along with other WA Farmers looking for sensible alternatives.

If you are serious consider the possibilty of becoming a person who not only supplies stock to the market but is a exporter as well.

All we are doing is bringing your overeas buyers to you here in Australia.
You are still selling your sheep to the same people Yabby except they are coming to you direct.[ no middle man]

There will be a lot of money in Halal accredited farms as well.

No I am not asking you to sell your farm or anybody else to the muslims or anybody.

Also we dont just work with Muslim people but world wide.

There is not too much oportunitys for me to explain it all on this post but it goes something like this.

We arrange for people to fly over to meet with you at your farm.

We do not attend unless YOU want us to.

If you find you have something in common that you can work a co joint deal then good luck to you.

We then arrange the closest abattoir [at your advise and local knowledge] If theres no we deal with that.

We arrange your Halal Accreditation and export licences at nO cost to you.

You are then a farmer producer exporter with a sure chain of supply.

That more than makes up for your 5 dollar to 20 dollar and if you insist 40 dollar difference per sheep.

You get cheap overseas travel and there is 600 million dollars available through the federal Government to create oportunitys in regional ares.

Couldnt you and your mates do with some of that!

Many people dont realise that farmers are the backbone of this country and you get it hard.

The National Party are traitors to the farmers flooding the country with cheap imports.

At least look at it surley it cant hurt eh?

Yabby
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 10 August 2006 7:32:01 PM
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Wendy, thanks for your post. I am sure that you mean well, but
the problem here is not about 10'000 sheep, or 100'000 sheep,
but about 7 million sheep!

Let me explain in a few words why: Lamb exports from
WA used to be a Govt monopoly, until a few years ago.
Consequently no serious investment was made in mutton/lamb
processing, as they go hand in hand. The previous Govt
finally changed that, deregulated the market and facilitated
the building of one large, efficient mutton processor operation
in the State.

They forgot to facilitate a competitor for him, so that one large
operation is having a field day, without real competition.
Subsequently prices for sheep in WA are consistantly well below
Eastern States prices, by a large amount. I have yet to see
that one operation pay a cent more then it has to. The only
salvation for farmers is the live trade, which offers an alternate
market for large volumes of sheep at some kind of a realistic
price.

I know of an ES processor, who tried to buy sheep here at sales and
have them slaughtered locally. As soon as they affected local
prices upwards in the saleyards, they were told that there was
no more killing space available, sorry.

The present Govt does not seem to care much about agriculture.
If they did, they would facilitate the building of another couple
of efficient plants. It does not require subsidies, just some
help in getting through the red tape involved in building a new greenfields plant, which is super efficient, using the latest
technology.

To cut it short, farmers in WA are not unreasonable in wanting
prices similar to the prices that Eastern States farmers obtain
for their livestock. That is a long way from the case right now
and the only people doing anything like providing those sorts
of prices for farmers here, are the live trade. No wonder they
have huge support in WA.

Why don't your Malaysian friends come over here and build an
efficient plant? We have some of the world's cheapest sheep here
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 11 August 2006 8:08:07 AM
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Thanks to Celivia, Yabby and Wendy for very interesting posts. And for not trading insults.

I am finding everything you have to say very informative. Personally, I would love to see an end to live trade - even though it has been cleaned up, animals caged for long periods and transported do suffer emotionally even if their basic physical requirements are met.

Please keep up the debate - you might just find some solutions.

Regards to all
Posted by Scout, Friday, 11 August 2006 8:47:23 AM
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Yabby.

I am listening.

Celiva kill to have you involved in this project or PALE

Scout as well.

Yabby

Happy to send people to look, talk to you and your mates.

I need some info.

The areas and where the nearest plants are?

Who would be interested in a co joint venture? How big are the farms?

We will do the Halal Accreditations and export licences together with u so u become an producer exporter as well[only if u want]

Where to re open plants?

Short story.> A bloke tried to buy a pig plant. Had most of it cash.

Asked Government for $5000.00 grants loan.

The Government said >no funds available.

Three weeks later they gave $40.00 Million to Nippon for the same ! plant.

Probably no surprise to you.

Government likes overseas investment, lets give them some, with farmers as grass roots partners.

You could be the first in WA . Hopefully later be an agent for this project and make heaps.

That will help me to help the animals.

Think u have a problem with PETA ? Animals Australia ? Animal Liberation? Katrina Sharmann?. Who means well [The author of this post]u should try being in my shoes.!

None of them have a god dam clue about stock and they wont except help.

I am know as the ANIMAL KILLER and black listed thanks to Animals Australia not only Australia wide but world wide.

They just dont get it that we must support FARMERS and slaughter here to improve Animal Welfare.

Fight for better prices for Farmers and SUPPORT farmers. Dumb and fund raisers]

When I try to contact farmers they are so uptight by the damage done they tell me to POQ.

Dont blame them.

We are also interested in other projects and some of these guys are real good at finding water with the funds to drill.

We want halal vegetables, bush tucker, and non animal tested aboriginal cosmetics.
please email me through this link.

www.halakindmeats.com

My job is to listen to you and your mates and do it your way.

Thanks Yabby
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 12 August 2006 6:46:19 AM
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Katrina

Yes Peter arranged the first enquiry.

Sadly however well intended there was a condition put on it that it was ONLY presented from a vegetarian groups point of view.

There was your first mistake.

That gives the Government and others plenty of room to play politics and use the media to discreit all claims by such groups to the public calling us ALL extream.

We support FREE RANGE FARMERS and re opening of abattoirs so the animals are not on the truck for hours or days.

So tell me katrina whats your plan?


Animal Liberation should be supporting this FREE RANGE movement but they dont.

OK Then whats your! plan Katrina?, because telling everyone not to eat meat doesnt cut it for the animals.


By protesting about people eating meat you are destroying the chance to get the public on side to make sure battery hens and intensive farms are wipped out and put back to FREE RANGE.

You cant tell people not to eat meat Katrina .

Cant you see that for God Sake?

You need to support FREE RANGE FARMS

Ladies and Gentleman if you love animals support Free Range Farmers
and start your own group or just write direct to the Govenment.

All many groups are about is fund raising to keep themselves in paid positions.

Poor Animals.

This does not apply to voiceless who prefer to give rather than take however sadly they are being misled working with a group that support PETA who ARE extream.

This is not America Katrina and we need to support farmers who are Free Ranging and Re open Abattoirs HERE.

Brian and Ondine went on TV saying they were main stream

Then refuse to work with PALE HKM who are the only ones supporting and trying to help the farmers improve animal welfare.

All Animal Liberation and Animals Australia are doing is a lot of damage to animal welfare by getting every farmer off side with animal welfare groups.

Please re think this for the sake of the animals.

Whos playing politics
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Tuesday, 15 August 2006 7:08:45 AM
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Wendy, I agree that it is just ridiculous and very close-minded the way the extreme animal liberalists are handling the situation. Often with extremists, they have tunnel vision.

I find it saddening that these groups have a lot of potential power to make positive changes for the animals, but that nothing positive happens because of their inflexible views and useless actions. I fully agree that these groups prevent progress in the right direction. These groups could be such an asset to animals and farmers if only…

Now, OK, if we just accept that the organisations of these groups are blind and not willing to open their eyes a bit wider, then there may not be any further use in discussing this with them at this moment.

But is there a way to possibly get through to the supporters of these groups and go around the organisation bodies? If the supporters can be made to see some sense, then they may be able to influence these animal rights groups' organisators.
I have no idea how, but someone else might know?

The whole pigfarm and Amanda Vanstone thing is sad but nevertheless is a good opportunity to make people aware and has grabbed some of the media’s attention.
Is there a way at all for your groups to use that media attention and play in on that so the media will direct some of that attention to present to the public and support the view of the Free Range Farmers in a campaign-kind of way?
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 15 August 2006 9:44:19 AM
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Celivia.

Good Question.

The Answer is yes.

If the public realise what is happening its the animals best chance.

They should contact which every group they donate to and ask to see what programes are supporting Free Range Farmers.[in writing]

The are none.

Requested that the Minister Of Ag Federal and the State Government form a new Animal Welfare register.

They basically only meet with Animals Australia because then they can discredit all Animal Welfare minded people as a bunch of extream nutters.

No member of the public appointed these people to represent them by the way. There is no balance.

We really need meat eaters together form their own or to submitt to the many Animal Welfare submishions in their areas.

Encourage everybody to contact their local Department of DPI and ask to speak to the person in charge of Animal Welfare.

Get themselves put on their mailing list and make themselves known to them.


Start a FARMERS FRRE RANGE SUPPORT GROUP.

Its not going to be easy , many farmers are so upset about the attacks on them by extream groupsprotesting about people eating meat.


It was good to see Maralyin Shepard on this post.

Shes another capable lady.

All these people who have posted care about animals.

Thats a good start.

Start by contacting them and ask them to support farmers doing Free Range.

I beleive that public power can do anything.

If we stop giving money to groups and put it towards a good court case then we will help the animals.

At this stage all the public are doing is giving money that used to keep people in paid jobs,

That way little gets done for the animals.

Trust me I know and have been watching with utter discust for years.


So the key is more direct public contact to Government and supporting farmers that Free Range.

Thats a good start.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 10:16:12 AM
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Yo yabby

Where are you? Come on mate we only want to run a few ideas by you that might make you wealthy and some of the other farmers.

You can always say no.

Look at it this way Yabby- if you have a farmer and a buyer thats all you need.
You grow sheep for the consumer-right.

Ok then if the consumer buys direct from the farmers then there is a lot more money than paying the middle man now isnt there.

You know Yabby Is was speaking with a goat farmer up here about three years ago.
He was telling us he got about ten twleve dollars per goat at that time.
At the same time thise goats were sold to the Muslims who I now have a MOU with.
They were paying around seventy two dollars for the same goat.

So the farmers get ripped off the muslims gets ripped off and the poor old goat is not having much fun either.

I know many people are actually scared of Elders but you know what Elders wont hassle the Muslims thats for sure.

I know the way they play but leave them to us.

Eventually we build our own ships[to carry red meat] as well as the stock markets.

Give it some thought Man.

Hope things are well for you down there and we would love to help you become a farmer exporter.
cheers Yabby
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 17 August 2006 7:33:32 AM
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Thank you for that long post with the suggestions, Wendy.

Do you know if the facts about this big scale free range farming and PALE have been incorporated into the learning materials presented to students of agricultural schools throughout Australia?

New farmers and farmers-to-be should really know about this in detail. They might be more open to new ideas and ways of farming than the older and established farmers.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 17 August 2006 1:28:59 PM
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Wendy, I know you mean well, but I think you totally misunderstood
what I said in my last post on the subject, so there was no point
in persuing it.

I'll let you in on a little secret, I used to have an award winning
export company and it made money for lots of farmers and also for
me, it was a win-win all around. It was just not in the meat industry. I sold it a couple of years ago, as I wanted a break,
after 14 years of non stop work. Now I prefer farming as a lifestyle:)

Let me say it again :- There are no old plants to reopen in WA,
unlike the East. WA has a massive undercapacity in meatworks,
due to past political decisions. What the State needs is a couple
of large, new, efficient, labour efficient, greenfields operations,
to cope with millions of sheep. Have you ever suggested to your
Muslim friends to consider building such a plant in West Australia,
considering that we have by a long way, a large volume of Australia's
cheapest sheep for sale here.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 17 August 2006 2:05:05 PM
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Yabby

Ah there you are. I was wondering where you got to. I was starting to miss you.

You sound too young to retire. No, I didn`t misunderstand you.

I am stubborn not stupid. I think you would make a good WA adviser.

What do you say, ah?

One day here and there over a year.

Come on you know you will get bored, clearly you like a challenge.

As to your question, of course we have talked about it[building plants in WA]

They are waiting for me to introduce them to some farmers, property, locations.

Hence my interest in my new found mate> You.

I can`t do it without Aussie partners and operators.

Actually the AMIEU down there had calls from Muslims in the past from the Middle East apart from any of the ones I know.

If you have done all of that Yabby, you know about subs and add 600 million for Development in Regional areas, for jobs pluss overseas investment.?

Be interesting if the Government adopted it as a policy too.

BUT I must have some Aussie farmers and some people to run the places.
You understand that I know. MLA, CMA etc put all our funding into programes to support live exports "mainly".I am trying to get the Government to look at this as another programe.[Why Not Half public funding]

Good public relations with overseas.

I guess I will have to come , stay and advertsie because nobody will help me with the area.
The Animal lot abused me when I asked for some local advise calling me an animal killer and you can imagine the response from FF.
And you think you got it tough.

So Yabby might see you down there some time at the sales. Please let your your mates about>

www.halakindmeats.com

In the mean time dont forget the job offer.[smile]

Take it as a compliment . I have been bugging Kevin Sheill for ages.

He will be delighted I have my eye on somebody else I suspect.



Cheers Yabb
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 17 August 2006 7:11:15 PM
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Wendy, I would be happy to advise you, you can contact
me at bonobo@westnet.com.au

However I could not be part of your group, for I don't
share your philosophy :)

For a venture to take place, it does not need Govt
subsidies, just facilitation by State and Feds,
who sometimes tie everyone up in so much red tape,
that any progress becomes nearly impossible.

What you really want is Saudi money (they earn
900 million a day from oil, so 20m$ would be peanuts
for a Saudi prince.. Then you want value adders in
Malaysia, then farmer shareholders, through their
super funds. AMIEU could invest through their super
fund.

What is really required is a group like RSPCA to
twist Kim Chance's arm, that the Govt should
facilitate the project (get over all the red tape)
then it becomes easy, otherwise its a struggle all
the way...

Hugh Wirth would be doing more good using his influence
in that way, rather then waving his red flag about the
live trade, which at the moment, is a salvation for
many farmers and sheep without an alternate home.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 18 August 2006 1:53:24 PM
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Yabby

Thankyou. Awfully decent of you.

Right I need to just do it.

We would slaughter here, send carcus To Maylasia, JAKIM ,further distribute.

Sending carcus
pluss hides. Same cost as they buy live.

Fix their abattoir job loss.

They are keen on the Farms here.

See themselves as the future hub of Halal.

I did have some good direct contacts with Saudi through Amdjad at AFIC but however sadly hes ill .

Carry Mark Vailes bags and put this to them would help.

John Howards has said he will or his adviser along with Peter M and [maybe] Vaile meet re this if I do a proposal.

Also a couple of state advisers.

Its got to be done by a biz consultant because I would stuff it up.

Tried usual methods of insisting that part of the public funding go to such as this etc.

Its got to be a vote winner with the public feelings towards live exports.

The bigger problem is..

The damage done by these Animal libs , PETA.

The public are feeling they are bullying the farmers, while trying to tell them not to eat meat.

Makes it real hard to talk to Farmers.

If I say I am with pale they run. More than a couple of old timers have told me u know where I can stick my Muslims.] dags]

Dont even start me on Dr Wirthless.

Hes record of refusing to repy to my many invitations to meet with Government reps from Maylasia and other places to support this.

Even Peter McGaurans adviser said he should support this when she came up. Shes pretty much the same as you.

We do have the support of a CEO with RSPCA QLD

I shall run out of room so thank you again Yabby and I will email you.

Celiva Good idea and I am not ignoring you its just really hard to find people like Yabby on every street corner.

Look forward to talking with you both further.

Thanks Again Yabby
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Friday, 18 August 2006 6:32:45 PM
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Celivia.

Love you onboard, a thinker.

Schools, great idea. Some worry about loosing subs.

One answer is creating work for Aboriginal people and reopening countrytowns.

City people are moving country, another chance.

Together with Maylasian and others interested in farms for meat and costmetics, vegetable herbs bushtucker.

Pamplets through Real Estate Agents and a healthy comm to the Agents.

Understandings with Country councils looking for work for their towns.

Script System like fly buys for purchasers of kinder meats.

Start in the Middle East with the Halal.

They could use the vouchers towards new shoes or car etc.

We really need is farmers onside not offside.

Australias loosing farmers, being replaced by new age corp lot[intensive farming]

We Require people prepared to start Free Range Farmers groups and eventually Teli advertising.

Creek fed, Free Range Farmers and build reopen abattoirs.

Your idea of reaching the members of the extream groups was best.!

People join these things thinking they are helping animals but dont get the bigger picture.

If any of the readers would like to help contact the Farmers that Free Range and support them thats the answer.

I think co joint vetures creating employment in the Bush is good for Australia.

I will still push to Government to adopt it as a policy while trying to make the oposition to see its a friendly policy they could win votes on.

Katrina is right and that is Animal Welfare is fast becoming main stream.

We need people to stand up for the farmers against PETA and this Animal Liberation lot telling everyone not to eat meat.

Remember all the members of groups care about animals.

There just mislead by the bullys and dictators.

Real farmers are hard to get to know.

They would rather be left alone by all the city mob they are convinced live in another world.

Best way to change that is to form Jobs For Australia and Support farmers Groups.

Next Post I will list ways to start your own groups.

Thanks Celivia
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 19 August 2006 8:16:39 AM
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I promised to post on starting groups.

A small bbq and invite a few friends.
Even two people

Small are most effective. They work well together unlike some big groups.

Take some small boards along with a few Felt Pens and buy some thick grey tape.

If each person drives home with a sign on their back window its a good start.

Meet once a month and make the meetings as enjoyable. A few drinks does not go astray. At those BBQs work out who wants to do what.

You may like to contact us for some free footage, flyers and material.

Jobs for Australia is a very good group to start.

ban intensive feed lot Groups./

Others might like to form Free Range support for farmers groups.

We are happy to supply contacts of Free Range farmers.

There are the people who argue that these animals would only die in the paddock of thirst if not sent alive on ships.

Well let me tell you thats kinder!

We are over breeding in proven drought areas . There should be a law to stop that.

"Perhaps a Ban on Breeding in Drought Areas Group.

We supply free internet connections apart and material.

Once you get a few friends interested you will find your own ideas.

Its not a good idea to show footage tapes unless the people ask.

Most of the footage is SO bad it really upsets most people.

Try to stick to your own group and dont get bullied by anti meat eating groups like Animal Liberation or Animals Australia.

In the end its the everyday meat eaters that you need onside.

Most people are happy to hang a sign in their yard.

So try to get as many people as possibly to do that.

Print out our free stickers on this site and put them everywhere and anywhere.
stickers free>
www.livexports.com

We usually just leave them in our cars so when we go for milk , shopping and putting a couple up each time.

Good luck and contact us anytime for free materials and internet connection.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Friday, 25 August 2006 5:40:48 AM
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People Against live Exports and Intensive farming in conjunction wth RSPCA QLD

Would like to offer free Accomadation to anybody Interested to help on the Gold Coast.

It consists of a indoor pool area with a seperate outdoor pool areas as well.

Many computers two nice horses and a cheeky bird who wanders from office to office inspecting everybodies work.

We are close to the beaches yet close to the hinterland so you get the best of both worlds.

We have several lawyers as members who pop in on a daily, so there is always lots of support as well.

This wont suit everyone of course as many people having young children to raise.

However live on the Gold Coast or work from where you are we are happy to support you.

Remember do not feel guilty about eating meat you were meant to.

However we are all reposonsible for insisting they are free Range and Slaughtered Here In Australia keeping our jobs for Australians and improving Animal Welfare.

If you are a farmer sending animals Alive overseas because of the drought thats a lie.

You knew you were in drought country Before! you bred those animals.

Find another way to farm your land.

Get together and get a co op going with a few other farmers to slaughter in Australia and become a farmer exporter.

There is NO EXCUSE for such cruelty.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Friday, 25 August 2006 6:03:26 AM
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KooWeee, Yo Yabby,

Good to chat with you. I will wait until I hopefully hear from you and we will all come.

Thanks Mark Townend CEO RSPCA QLD.

We need more wonderful people who give their time Australia wide for no gain for animals.

The one hundred year old Animal Welfare act is Australias Greatest Shame.

John Howards most miserable peformance as a PM.

Howards is also capable of fixing things.

Its up to ALL of us to find alternatives AND John Howard to make the changes neccessary to stop intensive farming and live exports.


yo AQIS I saw some SHAMEFUL pictures of dogs in your care.

Before and after. The before was a picture in the holding yards in Africa but now look at them.! All your places will be under the spot light as of now. Shame on AQIS!

Simmon will soon be the labour leader again so i urge everybody to write to him and insist animals are Free Range, Slaughtered here and for an END to live exports.

As Yabby said we could slaughter here if we wanted just by opening up many new abattoirs.
Well isnt that good for jobs for Australia.

Its up to the people to make Government see there are votes in this.
DONATE YOUR TIME NOT! MONEY!

Speak to your local members regually and keep those letters pouring into LABOUR and JH.

Remember however Live exports are the reasonsibilty of Mark Vaile and Alexanda Downer so dont forget to tell them what you personally think of THEM. Just let your anger be shown! why shouldnt you.

Enough of the nice polite letters.!
Enough is enough and they are dodging putting it back onto Peter Mcgauaran.
THEY ARE THE MINISTERS OF TRADE AND AFFAIRS.

In my next post I will post a letter from the Queen offering Mark Vaile and Downer as the people reasonsibly the the cruel live export trade.
Remember Yabby Said the Government made a few changes years ago?

Well we need YOU to tell the Government to change it back.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE ! SAY NO!
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 26 August 2006 9:09:50 AM
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Thank you, Wendy, for your many valuable posts on this issue.

I've printed out some stickers and passed a few around.

I'll write to Vaile and Downer, and think some more about some of your other suggestions.

Ha, looking forward to reading the Queen's letter!

I've just received an email from the social party (Dutch one) that they're lobbying to place (hidden) camera's at animal markets and in fact, any places that deal in animals to catch more offenders. It's very likely to go through.

They've been routinely anonymously checking animal markets for cruelty and found some offenders- now there will be a ban for the offenders by law to deal in animals again- much like losing your driver's licence.

Wendy, do you know if that's going to be introduced here as well?
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 26 August 2006 4:58:55 PM
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Letter from The Queen
http://www.livexports.com/queen.html

Dr Wirth Press conference.>

We've got political grandstanding particularly in the States and lack of accountability. Pockets of community indifference and therefore complacency. Differences in philosophy, extreme and differences in conduct of advocacy groups.

Animal welfare was never part of the Christian Judaic tradition.was the humanist revolution that occurred in the United Kingdom at the end of the Eighteenth Century/early Nineteenth Century.
The leader in that group of course was William Wilberforce. He was appalled that human slavery still existed in the British Empire and was justified on the basis of the Bible.

He took on the might of the British Empire and won. How he did this is a matter of history but having said this and having abolished slavery and brought about some measure of control about cruelty to children, it was a simple and logical thing to move to animals.

Animals are simply property and under the law and under cultural tradition.

The great Eastern religions preached the value of the kinship of humans and animals and they still do today.


Frances of Assisi attempted to do something about this when he was alive and he probably did more than any other person in the Christian denomination to try and get some semblance of religious basis for our relationship.

Long Speech. Is long overdue that churches Took The Stand Against Animal cruelty .

After two years Of Writing to Senator Steve Fielding along with A Visit and two thousand letters to Churches Australia Wide.

We wait For A single reply!

Please Write To Your church and Ask them to Speak Out for Gods creatures and Ban livde exports and Intensive Farming.

WE will Contiune to Ask Family first Along With Ministers and ALL Churches to listen to the 96 percent of Australian People.

Any human being with the slightest deceny would not hesitate to act.
live Exports is A gross injustice carried out by a few greedy men who have no concern for animal welfare or jobs for their fellow Australians.
SHAME
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 26 August 2006 10:30:00 PM
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Excellent post, Wendy! I'm glad you got your link to work.

I hope I won't have a nightmare after looking at Downer's face, hehe.

Actually, it might be a good idea to start a discussion on what churches could do right here and now, and what the reason might be for ignoring the issue.
I hope that there are some religious people on here wanting to take part in this discussion.
Always good to look at a problem from all angles.

Wendy, if that doesn't work and this discussion flops, then we could indeed try to start our own under 'general' I believe, still have to find out about how to use this new tag.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 26 August 2006 11:51:20 PM
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Hey Wendy & Celivia

Great point about respect for animals NOT being a part of the judeo-christian tradition. Note how few, if any, christian posters (especially the anti-choicers) get involved in the animal welfare threads.

Wendy, I don't know if this is of any use to you, but I shop at Belgrave Meats, Victoria. They specialise in free range, non-chemical produce. Their phone number is 03 9754 2371. While I know they are committed to organic farming principles I am not sure how far this commitment goes with regard to humane treatment of animals - although it seems that free-range farming methods tend to go with more humane practice. Anway, I thought it might be a good idea to collect details of all butchers who offer alternatives to mass produced/intensive farming. We could collect info on the 'general' blog, perhaps.

I try to do my share regards volunteer work at animal shelters and selective buying. Wish I could become vegetarian, anyway, no one is perfect.

Cheers
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 27 August 2006 8:25:02 AM
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Scout.Celivia

Your ideas show you both as leaders. Scout dont wish you were a vegatarian please.

Its better aproaching the every day person being one of them.

Thanks for the number and your volunteer work.

Celivia Yes there are many people in countries working, lets not warn the enermy.
Scout If you wouldnt mind could I to chat to you heres the web page>
www.livexports.com

Might be helful to tell people how the Government get away with this cruelty of live exports.

AVA> Australian Vetinary Association.

A secret soceity nominating a new President each year.

Despite! the last 60 minutes report they have NOT put live exports back on the board room table?

For this to happen at least two of their members.

You would Think ! two vets would stand by the animals they swore their allegiance to despite! the consequences.


Young ones are elected as Presidents and I think its clear as to why.

Target the AVA The Churches and of course the Ministers of Trade.

The AVA were both amazed and nervous when I told them we would rally outside.

What I dont get is why.

Its not Rocket sceience that THEIR to blame.

I also dont get why the other groups such as Animal Liberation etc have not thought to do that.

Surely its better to the education of the public. Teach them who is responsibly for approving live exports and intensive farming

Dont forget each State Premier is also Minister of trade for his State so write.

They will tell you its all the Federal Goverments doing.[of course]

We need farmers working together with live importers.

Thats not hard to do because MANY overseas people would be very interested.


Stand outside Elders Real Estates with a group and protest.

Elders are the largest live exporters of Animals in Australia.

Please click Here and send this to everybody you write.

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

And Please! Ask everybody to click here and add your name and comments
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/Petition.php


To stop Live Exports we MUST offer the farmers and Goverment an alternative. Help Us find that for tbe animals sake.[please]
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 27 August 2006 9:22:06 PM
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Wendy dear, I know that you have an emotional obsession with
live exports, but I was about to say, trying to force Govts to
ban live exports is about as useful as trying to force Govts
to ban toilets. ie, its totally pointless unless and until
better options are put in place and exist, which right now
they don't.

If live exports of sheep were banned tomorrow from West Australia,
there would be untold suffering of the very animals that you
claim to care about.

The days are long past where Govts operate meatworks and similar
private enterprise institutions. So pleading to Govts to do
so, will fall on deaf ears.

Anyone is free to put their money where their mouth is, build
another meatworks and slaughter sheep locally, that were destined
for the live trade. Cost of local slaughter is far lower then
live tranport. If people want credibility, they are free to make
it happen, rather then chant away like the Hare Krishnas :)

Meantime, in the case of the live sheep trade from WA, we have to
judge it by what is happening now. Boats have lifted their standards, regulations have changed, old boats are being ditched,
the industry is changing. Fact is, as Cameron Morse from the
Countryman showed, today's live sheep trade is not much different
to any feedlot in Australia, except that it floats.

Despite these many positive changes, if people still get their
breasts in a tangle over this issue, they are free to create
alternatives for farmers and make them happen. Banning live
exports would be like banning toilets. The smell might go away
but the problems created would be far worse then the suggested
cure.

\
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 27 August 2006 10:31:51 PM
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Yabby.

Agree regarding overnight Ban. Has to done over the next four years. A Ban on over breeding in drought regions would help. Farmers really need to realise they do dont a right to create suffering. If ya cant manage em dont breed em! I am sticking up for farmers telling not all groups were protesting about people eating meat.
I dont! agree with you about feed lots.
Creek fed in place of feed lots. Thats the least we can be expected to supply to Animals we breed to eat.
You speak of feed lots as if they were ok. Surely Your not blind.
Do you know the difference betwen feed lots and creek fed?
Happy to assist with overseas investors to build more abattoirs.
However as you said live Exports are due to some changes made by the Government years ago.
We can educate about these issues.
I would gladly! build as many plants as needed Yabby if i had the funds myself.
I Try to get main stream people to support Free Range Farmers.
I Try to get farmers talking direct to overseas investors , preferably live Animal Importers.
Educate the public that THEIR money goes to the MLA and The cattle mens ASS.
They have a right to insist SOME of these funds goes towards promoting co joint ventures with overseas live importers.
Its not about me getting my breasts in a tangle so much as looking for men with balls to help.
Neither is it up to me to do the lot on my own for Australia.
I should have thought some of the farmers could ban together and open a few plants too.
Or does Elders have everybody other them me running scared. Also Yabby as you said you were not actually in this industry but exporting Sea foods. There is a difference. You said for eg, Halal Accreditations were nothing and easy to obtain. Thats simply not correct. Farmer dont know who to approach without too much red tape to get accreditations and export licences. We do. You may be interested in this>
www.envirosource.com.au
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 28 August 2006 12:06:03 AM
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http://www.envirosource.com.au/
This Should work sorry.

Yabby , happy to talk to [serious] people about opening more plants.
Your theory about improved conditions on ships is stuff you must have read off a web pages. Its clear to me you have not exported sheep although I appreciate your interest.
How do you think we can control other countries?
We cant. Even if the ship trip was not cruel> Which it IS. How do you think we can tell others how to slaughter.? They dont even respect peoples lives. There is no bloody reason for sending our jobs off shore. Fact is apart for some minerals Vailes got stuff all going OUT of Australia. Take A look at the National Party.
The problem IS most these dudes are NOT farmers but corp, companies that know stuff all about farming or animals and care much less.
eg If a goat farmer get twenty bucks a goat and the Muslim pays seven two WHOS getting ripped off?
The GOAT going alive number one! The Farmer number two and the muslims. Simply makes good sense for the farmer and the Muslim buying the goat to do business direct,cutting out the middle man. The ones who make their money out of misery and stealing jobs from Australia.
If you know farmers intersted in FREE assistance for Halal accreditations , looking for the sercurity of becoming exporters, I would strongly sugest you point them to this web page.
www.halakindmeats.com
You will find I am no mug and I dont say things I dont mean.
If WA farmers want more money its the way to go. If they want people to turn a blind eye they are out of luck.
Do not tell me live exports is OK Yabby I have a room FULL of footage that makes even the farmers I have shown cry.
The Extream People have got THAT right. Have you SEEN them ripping the eyes out alive/ Have you. We have. It Is NORMAL over there!
So lets build some bloody plants.
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 28 August 2006 1:53:33 AM
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Wendy

I have bookmarked your links for when I have more time.

PS - A note of warning it is against OLO rules to have more than a single identity on OLO - they find out from your IP address.

Yabby

I think you have a valid point that an immediate end to live trade will cause more problems than it solves, however, I don't think that is what Wendy is on about. She is trying to set up alternatives to live export so that it can be phased out over time. Please give her a chance. Think about racehorses that travel overseas - their accommodation is 20 star in comparison to live meat export and they still can suffer stress. Better that animals be slaughtered here where we have control in the methods used.

Cheers
Posted by Scout, Monday, 28 August 2006 8:50:45 AM
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Wendy, Celivia, Pericles, Yabby and anyone else who is interested, I have started a thread regarding live export under 'General' at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 28 August 2006 2:32:09 PM
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Scout, thanks, I'll have a look at this thread!

Wendy, I love that envirosource thing! Hopefully it will be available here soon.

The footage on the animalaustralia website of the treatment of animals before and during slaughter are soooo horrifying I had to stop watching it because I felt faintish and sick. They are MUCH worse than anything I’ve ever seen on TV and worse than I would be able to imagine!
Is AVA aware of this footage- I just can’t imagine vets having watched this and still don’t even discuss it!

Anyway, I just wrote to AVA and Mark Vaile (again)- I spoke of rallying since you said it makes ‘em nervous.

To church people I would like to say: If you find the members of your church compassionate, then suggest they show some compassion for All Creatures Great and Small. Perhaps your priest can lead the way and church goers can gather in front of Elders one Sunday to protest.
I almost wish Philo took part in this discussion- he knows lots of church people he could talk to about this. You can always sing: Mary had a Litte Lamb.

Yabby, I do agree with Scout here that Wendy IS suggesting good alternatives.
Yabby if you watch this footage you’d be horrified about the way animals are handled once they’ve reached their destination. I think that the animals who die during the transport are the lucky ones compared to the survivors. I just can’t get over it.
If you want to see the footage, here’s the site. If you have kids, make sure they’re not around when you watch this!
http://www.animalsaustralia.org/default2.asp?idL1=1269&idL2=1900&idL3=1905
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 28 August 2006 2:57:10 PM
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Wendy, droughts are not yet predictable. Things might be fine
today, drought in two months.

Feedlots are here to stay, thats the reality. There is good and bad
about them. The whole Japanese beef market depends on them. About
1 million head of cattle in Aus are in feedlots IIRC.

IMHO Wendy, there are far worse things around then live sheep or
feedlots. Chickens in little cages all their life, yet 80% of
people don't care and buy the eggs. Cows in dairies never let outside all their lives, as in mega dairies. I am against any facilities where animals spend their whole lives in factory like
conditions. But two weeks on a boat, where animals gain weight,
is not an issue for me.

I don't get my info from websites. Cameron Morse is a smart guy,
independant. He is the editor of the Countryman. He hopped on a boat
to Jordan with a load of sheep and reported the whole procedure in
extreme detail to his readers, over a number of weeks. You should
write to him at the Countryman for a copy of his report.

Elders hardly play a role in the WA live export trade, thats perhaps
a Queensland issue.

Wendy, I have had a farm for around 30 years now and still do.
It runs a couple of thousand sheep, which is hobby farmer size these
days.

Wendy, there is a coop owned by farmers in WA, who slaughter
1 million sheep and lambs a year. Right now they are paying
about 15-20$ for mutton, the live sheep trade pays 60$.
If you have all these great markets, prepared to pay farmers a fair
price for mutton, they can buy from Wammco, already halal accredited, and Wammco can pass that back to its 1000 farmers.

You have no right to try and control other countries Wendy.
That would make you as arrogant as the Americans. MLA spends
quite some money each year on encouraging and cajouling others.
Trying to dictate to them is bad people skills, as George
Bush has found out.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 28 August 2006 7:30:11 PM
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Scout

Thank you. The Following is>

ONE OF A FEW GOOD MENS LETTER TO SENATOR FIELDING
The Letter Remains unanswered. SHAME

The Australian Catholic Study Circle for Animal Welfare

"The Ark in Australia”


PATRONS:

His Eminence Cardinal Edward Clancy

Emeritus Archbishop of Sydney Or Hugh JWirth

President RSPCA, Victoria & Australia

Chairman and Treasurer:

Mr John Drennan Vice-Chairman:

Mrs Margaret Denat Foundress (Australia):

Miss Marrion Craig

ABN: 93 676 785 175

4/35 Morrah Street Parkville VC 3052 Australia

Tel (03) 9347 2851



12 May, 2006

Senator Steve Fielding
Family First

255 Blackburn Road, Mount Waverley, VIC 3149

Dear Senator Fielding,

Re: Our meeting on Live Animal Export to the Middle East

On behalf of Wendy Lewthwaite (People Against Live Exports) and Mark Townend (CEO, RSPCA, Queensland) and myself, I wish to thank you for meeting us on 7 April and for your willingness to look Into the above matter.

It appears to us evident that the imperative to avoid - at the very least -gross cruelty to animals is implicit not only in the teachings of the world's main religions, including Christianity, but also in common humanity. Taken with the demonstrated facts of cruelty in current Middle Eastern methods of slaughter, it appears to follow that a ban on live exports, at least to that part of the world, should continue to be enforced.

We believe that the spirit of the ideals of me Party which you represent entails the above imperative irrespective of economic consequences. But, insofar as these latter are relevant to practical decisions, there is the further point that it would be to Australia's economic benefit to encourage the processing of meat here, to be exported chilled, and subject, in relevant cases, to inspection by duly authorized Islamic halal Inspectors.

We also hope that your Party would see fit to formulate an Animal Welfare policy. Many who support your other policies would be attracted to supporting Family First if a reasonable animal welfare policy were also to be in place.

Yours sincerely,

John Drennan (Chairman ACSCAW).
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 28 August 2006 8:54:47 PM
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Wendy, Celivia, Pericles, Yabby and anyone else who is interested, I have started a thread regarding live export under 'General' at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 28 August 2006 2:32:09 P
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Tuesday, 29 August 2006 11:19:47 PM
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Wendy, Celivia, Pericles, Yabby and anyone else who is interested, I have started a thread regarding live export under 'General' at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

~Wendy, sorry, I only noticed this very moment that you have started this discussion when I wanted to copy this link on my discussion thread, I must have missed the email alert when you added this info. Will check it out as soon as I have time to do so. Hope you didn't think I wasn't interested. Thank you.~
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 4 September 2006 9:45:52 AM
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The AMIEU (WA Branch) joined hundreds of thousands of workers throughout Australia, in the first of many actions, designed to focus public attention on the the Howard Government's anti- worker anti-family Industrial Relations legislation. Whatever it takes - the Australian Union movement will not rest until this rotten legislation is consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

Live Animal Export Protest - Parliament House
The AMIEU joined forces with the People Against Cruelty of Animal Transport (P.A.C.A.T.) in a protest on the steps of Parliament House about the excessive cruelty of the live animal export trade and the disasterous effect this obnoxious trade has had on the job security of thousands of meat workers employed
in abattoirs in Western Australia.

Special thanks to Union Delegates Peter Legg, Darren Miles and Alan Voice who travelled from Katanning on short notice to
voice their anger.

The Live Export shipping companies are only interested in short term profits as they scan the globe for for the cheapest source
of live cargo for their clients - they have no long term commitment to Australian farmers and often use "flags of convenience" ships crewed with exploited cheap labour -
workers on one ship that recently docked in Fremantle
had not been paid for over seven months!

It is only when their unrestricted activities lead to the demise of the Australian Meat Processing industry and the last
remaining abattoirs are forced to close will many consumers
and farmers alike, realize the strangle-hold they have on
our pastoral industry. When farmers are offered a
"take it or leave it " price for their stock and consumers
are left no option but to purchase Australian meat products processed overseas for inflated prices and of
questionable quality

it will be too late

Let your member of parliament know how you feel and how you intend to vote at the next election
if they fob you off!!
The Federal Government have responsibility for all
exports out of Australia and as such could easily
pass legislation that would regulate and
control this obnoxious trade!
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 12:47:27 AM
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In Australia the vast majority of eggs are laid by hens kept in cages on factory farms. Typically there are tens of thousands or sometimes hundreds of thousands of birds in one temperature controlled shed, with automatic water and feed systems and a conveyor as an egg collector, Often only one person is needed to look after the whole shed.

To reduce injuries resulting from excessive pecking — a behaviour that happens in hybrid birds when they are bored and frustrated — all laying hens in intensive systems have part of their top beaks cut off. De-beaking or beak-trimming is a painful procedure that involves cutting through bone, cartilage, soft tissue.

Laying between 250 and 300 eggs per year, the bodies of intensively farmed hens are severely stressed.

They also suffer from what the industry calls 'cage layer fatigue,' and many become 'egg bound' and die when they become too weak to pass another egg.
Osteoporosis is another common problem for egg laying hens, whose bodies lose more calcium to form egg shells than they can assimilate from their diets. Inadequate calcium contributes to broken bones, paralysis, and death.

In some cases, especially if a glut of eggs pushed prices down, laying hens may be 'force moulted' to extend their laying capacity.

For uncaring operators, this process involves starving the hens for up to 15 days, keeping them in the dark, and denying them water to suddenly interrupt their egg laying cycle.

This can lead to another egg laying period when prices are better. Commonly, between 5 and 10% of birds die during this type of moult. Some cage producers achieve a similar objective by changing the diet from a high protein layers ration to a different type of feed – usually barley.
Infections can be a major problem when birds, or any animals, are kept in large numbers within a small space.

Antibiotics are frequently administered as a preventative measure. Respiratory problems are common and as there is little human supervision of the birds (because all the systems are automatic) infections may go unnoticed for days or even weeks.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 1:04:04 AM
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Seems I have already been included in this discussion (tut tut Wendy) Anyway, we have a new website that is aimed at linking free range farmers together. We would appreciate any site suggestions, including retailers that support our farmers. http://www.freerangepork.com.au
Posted by pigfarmer, Monday, 11 September 2006 9:15:14 AM
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Thanks Pigfarmer,

I have copied the link on the 'Animal Welfare' discussion you'll find a very comprehensive debate in the General section.

Here's the direct link:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Bye
Posted by Scout, Monday, 11 September 2006 9:52:57 AM
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Pigfarmer
This is the best step taken by anybody in this country.!
We look forward to supporting you and fellow Free Range Famers in the future. This page has gone dead since the issue of extreme Animal Welfare people was raised.
As you already know that 96 percent of the public eat meat we can only see anti eat meaters using sad stores as fund raisers.

However somebody such as yourself with first hand knowledge of pig farming making such an attempt is truely remarkable and most welcome.

Having spoken with you we know you are interested in the Welfare of All Animals of course not just pigs.

Many people unlike yourself in the public are unaware that our cattle and sheep are no longer walking in padocks but locked in shed cramped together never seeing sunlight in cruel conditions.

Your integrity and common sense approach to pig farming and farming in general is much in demand.

For people who like to know how an animals is treated from padock to plate you are a shinning exampe.

We hope many others will follow in your example.

We hope to hear a lot more from you as a true leader in Free Range Farming Animal Welfare producing disease free and stress free animals.
Animal Liberation have again today disclosed more cruelty to the public in these cruel intensive pig farms.
If everybody! insists! woolworths and others only buy Free Range animals we can make a difference.
So before you buy your Christmas ham or turkey be SURE its Free Range.
Thanks Again Pig farmer

You have all of our support.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 11 September 2006 12:01:54 PM
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