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The Forum > Article Comments > Zarqawi’s war > Comments

Zarqawi’s war : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 13/6/2006

The death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi should be cheered by Muslims.

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Irfan

Your claim that Zarqawi is responsible for 25,000 death's in Iraq is an unsupportable, oversimplication which hides the complexity of the conflict in Iraq.

Death squads motivated by personal ambition, Shiite religious interests, nationalistic feeling, and Baathism are also at work in Iraq.

The significance of Zarqawi's death may not alter the confusion, rate of killing or power balance in Iraq. But it has removed a "effective" leader who could have potentially directed AQ forces away from Iraq and onto Western territory.

Removing experienced, senior AQ commanders is important in avoiding another large scale bombing in a Western city.

While Zarqawi's removal and simultaneous raids may spell the elimination of much of AQ's current hierarchy in Iraq there is now a risk that it will be difficult for a time for Coalition intelligence forces to zero in on the replacement AQ network and hiearchy. The period where there is no "devil you know" might be a dangerous one.

The Shiite dominated police, army and security services (all with documented tendencies for death squad killing of Sunni's and fighting part-time as private armies/militia's) are a much greater threat to Iraqi stability than the AQ network in Iraq.

So to reiterate I think eliminating AQ in Iraq has more to do with reducing the AQ threat to the West, but will not impact greatly on Iraqis (whose lives are more frequently threatened by other groups).

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 11:06:01 AM
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For the sake of the relatives of those who Zarkawi beheaded, they should have taken his, put it on a stake and displayed with with a sign 'God is not mocked, We reap what we sow'

Yes...I'm venting my spleen a bit there.

Irf, sadly, the Muslims would have grounds for cheering his death only due to his merciless attacks on what is usually described in Islamic journalistic circles as 'innocent civilians'. I doubt they will cheer his death due to his beheadings of what they believe to be 'guilty' civilians or military personell involved in the 'war against Islam' Primarily because beheading has support in the Quran and Sunna of the so called prophet Mohammed.

This is a point I will never ever until hell freezes over, neglect to point out.

The best that can be said of the average Muslim, is that they DON'T actually have a high degree of consciousness of these things, and they are selective of the good bits of Islam, while not keeping the 'ugly' bits high in their minds.

Sadly, once the 2nd generation of any faith, no matter how stupid or ugly or violent its beginnings, begin to adopt it as their cultural modus operandi, they don't think about how it all began.

Classic examples are Scientology (evil glactic sporn), Mormonism (we will all become Gods) and Islam. (die fighting and get 70+ Huries)

Instead of reacting with 'Armchair Nazi' I hope you will take your mind right back to the very beginnings, and see how mohammed's success was based on his clever management of marital relations, some useful coincidences, and some plain good luck in battle.

Its clear that he did have an element of his psyche which considered Allah, but he tended to 'manage' this also in terms of his own preferences and desires, hence attracting serious credibility problems with the whole.

I hope one day you will see Christ as Messiah, Son of God, God the Son and give your heart to Him. Don't worry I wont engage in any triumphalism :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 12:29:59 PM
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I find it a bit distasteful to gloat over anyones death, be it the death of a 'good' or a 'bad' person. Al-Zarqawi, I assume, would have a mother and father that like any other, would be greiving his death.

If Muslims, as Irfan says, will be dancing in the streets it speaks volumes about the inherent lack of compassion and value for any human life. Sad really.
Posted by Narcissist, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 1:01:59 PM
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The propaganda over this is disturburbing. The blanket bombing that killed this man caused considerable distruction to an entire area. Look at this video and see for yourself, the target, the bomb, and the second bomb. What do you notice? This is footage from the US bomber, and it is touted as a success.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/3587

It is a blanket bomb that was not that accurate, and they mentioned other attempts. The big bomb was 500 pounds, apparently guided. The voice over said "now the whole neighourhood can rejoice". Look at the video. The whole neighbourhood would be dead after that. How many attempts did they make? This was just one? Dead people don't rejoice.

Watching this evidence sends chills up my spine, and I can't imagine how people substantiate such tactics. They knew where the criminal was. Why couldn't they fish him out like they do any other criminal? No! They had to destroy an entire village. Then in gloat in cynicism, say that they can rejoice? How can you believe these people?
Posted by saintfletcher, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 1:14:59 PM
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As BD said - there is nothing new about violence and power hungry unethical leadership in the Islamic world. Shia and Sunni is but one such dog fight for power since day one after Mohammad.

The Muslim world as a whole, especially the Arabic speaking one - is in a state of anger.

As long as Muslim perceive the US as an invasion in Iraq, the existence of Israel as an occupation of their land; and Islam as the only true religion for us all; that will continue to create problems for the entire world until they wake up from their state of denial or ignorance, and face reality

Muslims think they have found the truth in islam – making a mockery of all previous revelations. They have placed their life and eternal beliefs in the concoction of half-stories their power-grabbing prophet recited to them. They sincerely believe that they are worshipping the same God as Christians and Jews – because that is what they have been told all this time.

Terrorism is THE central piece of the islamic jihad for world dominance as the Qur'an text clearly illustrate.

So please Irfan don't take us for dummies and insult our intelligence with your dodgy journalistic propaganda. As a consequence YOU are a threat to us all, including to those Muslims who want to live a peaceful life.

The death of one chef terrorist is not the end of jihad. Islam is an expansionist universal sect that knows no territorial boundaries. Their aim is to convert the whole world to their way of life - by peace or terror – because of their inflexibility to adapt otherwise anywhere.

This is a war the west must win or forever be subject to this ludicrous turmoil
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 1:18:37 PM
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"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)
In times of war and conflict, where enmity can obstruct an individual’s judgement to act morally, Islam commands that justice be upheld even towards one’s enemies.

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do" (5:8)

Coach says:- "Terrorism is THE central piece of the islamic jihad for world dominance as the Qur'an text clearly illustrate."

Grab your Qur'an and find us a quote please.
Posted by Priscillian, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 1:54:20 PM
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This is just an assortment - any chapter you turn, every page, has a few verses.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers (muslims) fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72

Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166

Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177

Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17

The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 8:55

Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-6
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 2:25:30 PM
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"Grab your Qur'an and find us a quote please".

* "Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war." (Qur'an, Sura 9:5)

* "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly." (47:4)

* "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan." (4:76)

* "Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo, Allah is forgiving and merciful." (9:5) (the ‘poor-due’ refers to religious tithes ie, if the ‘idolators’ become Muslims, then they should be left alone)

* "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (9:29) (NB: the jizya is a tax levied upon ‘non-believers)

* "Allah hath purchased of the believers of their person and their goods, for theirs (in return) is the garden (of paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth." (9:111)

There are dozens of similar quotes. What is the purpose of such verses, if not to preach violence against non-Muslims?

Koran 8:60: "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know."

Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:44): "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Posted by dee, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 2:30:30 PM
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Very good!
Which goes to prove that following a literalist faith is really stupid no matter who writes the words down.

P.S. I will require more than my 300 words quoting contradictions in the Christian/Jewish scripture so I simply trust that you know all about this embarrassment already.
Posted by Priscillian, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 2:35:21 PM
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If someone appeared on international TV and the internet and allowed himself to be photographed beheading people and threatening to kill me just because I belonged to the wrong sect or religion or community, I'd be quite happy if he were killed.

But then again, given even more recent reports that he was alive for 50 mins after the bombing, I now wonder why he wasn't arrested and brought to trial. Perhaps he might have told the Iraqis the location of hundreds of Iraqi and Western hostages.
Posted by Irfan, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 3:05:02 PM
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Priscillian,

the contradictions between Old Testament & New Testament writings exist because the OT is a bit like the Koran; a monocultural expression of faith in old terms.

The NT is what should be compared with both the OT & Koran, and hopefully one can see that it is a more universal text that has love as its basis. Surfe there are phrases that acknowledge that family will be pitted against each other on such an important issue, and yes, Jesus lost it in the temple, but, violent quote for violent quote leaves Cardinell Pell in the clear...
Posted by Reality Check, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 4:51:43 PM
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Priscillian – you did not ask for examples of ‘contradictions’ in Jewish/Christian scripture, you asked for quotes providing proof that ‘Terrorism is THE central piece of the islamic jihad for world dominance...’ I believe I have provided all the proof required - I was limited only by the 350 word rule. The Koran is full of quotes instructing faithful Muslims to mistreat, convert by force, or kill ‘non-believers’.

Why should Judeo-Christian ‘contradictions’ be an embarrassment to me? Regardless of the contradictions you cite, there are no Christian or Jewish terrorist groups beheading bound captives for others of their creed to salivate over, or threatening to impose their belief system on the rest of the world – but the Koran should certainly be an embarrassment to those who would have us believe that Islam is a ‘religion of peace’.

There have been thousands of attacks worldwide by Muslim religious Fascists, many wholeheartedly supported by Islamic clerics, sheiks and imans - guess they must have misunderstood all those peaceful verses in the koran and led their followers astray.

I do not see one Muslim country where there is freedom, tolerance of any kind, progress or peace - but we are supposed to believe this has nothing to do with Islam?
Posted by dee, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 5:06:17 PM
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The Sermon on the Mount is the more accurate dictate for Christianity and it's values.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 6:29:54 PM
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Just over 6,000 corpses have been taken to the Baghdad morgue this year and most of those since the bombing of the mosque.

The problem with mass hysteria demonising one man as responsible for all the ills is that we are only relying on the US - the very same fools who said we had to blow up Iraq because they had WMD.

The other problem, gloating over one man's death, is that next time the death could be yours.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 12:52:26 AM
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Marilyn Shepherd,

Getting close!
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 7:30:14 AM
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Far as ever from the truth ... in any balanced sense Marilyn.

WMD they 'did' have them, the PILOT OF THE PLANE WHICH TOOK THEM TO SYRIA has already made this known, and is on record..do some homework.

6000 corpses.. pales into insignificance compared to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS murdered by Sadaam. Not to mention the gouging out of the eyes of children in front of parents etc and vice versa for having wrong political views. Get real. The area 'BY NATURE' is volatile and the only reason it had stability before was BRUTALITY by a minority (Sunni) against the militarily weaker 'Shia' and Kurd.

(P.S. The Kurds might reflect on their own massacres of the Assyrian Christians when they think of the Halabja gas attack "Judgement"?.)

MARGINAL NOTE "This is where Marylin reminds BD that 'USA' put Sadaam in power.

To which BD replies, "duh"

"Saddam consolidated power in a nation riddled with profound tensions. Long before Saddam, Iraq had been split along social, ethnic, religious, and economic fault lines: Sunni versus Shi'ite, Arab versus Kurd, tribal chief versus urban merchant, nomad versus peasant." (Wiki)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html for a biography by an Arab.
an excerpt:

"Saddam Hussein borrowed from Stalinism. He had his security people trained in Eastern Europe, particularly East Germany. Then he brought them back to Iraq and he taught them how to use the tribal linkage to eliminate people."

Now..another excerpt supporting ur view:

"There is very good reason to believe that Saddam Hussein was in contact with the American embassy in Cairo when he was in exile. This is not strange, because alliances of convenience were taking place every day, and the United States was afraid that Iraq, under Kassem, might be going communist. So was the Ba'ath Party. So they had a common enemy, a common target -- the possibility of a communist take-over of Iraq.

Well gee whiz... the Yanks support those who are perceived to share their interests... what a revelation :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:00:35 AM
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dee,

What do you suggest the international community do about these nasty millions of Muslims strapping themselves with bombs and blowing themselves up? Should we ban Korans in Australia? Should we round up Muslims and lock them up?

What is your solution to the terrorist problem? Do tell.
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 11:58:36 AM
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Marilyn Shepherd – you continue to give figures without providing proof or sources.

Irf – I have never advocated locking up Muslims, as you well know, but I suggest that it may help Muslims if they were more honest and stopped the propaganda selling Islam as a religion of peace - hijacked by a ‘minority of extremists’ - this is wearing very thin.

Perhaps Muslims could begin to question the existing widespread mindset venerating suicide bombers. Perhaps Muslims could ask themselves why non-Muslim minorities are persecuted in every Islamic country; and why Muslim ‘leaders’ in every Western country condone hate literature and defiance of the laws of the host country?

Many Muslims no doubt wish to live in peace, but they cannot continue to bury their heads in the sand and present themselves as victims of ‘racism’ or ‘Islamophobia’. The mainstream Arab media engages in the most extreme type of hatred and racism; bin Laden is a hero to millions of Muslims and al-qaeda continues to receive financing from many sources in the Islamic world, including ‘charities’. Christians kill, Jews kill, Hindus kill, but no other religion on this planet has embraced organized slaughter as Muslims have done.

Re: banning korans – a group in Germany is already campaigning on this issue. You mention banning the Koran, but you do not address the reasons why people would wish to do so. Are they just picking on Islam because they hate foreigners/other religions? If so, why not pick on Hindus? Or Chinese? Or do they genuinely feel threatened by a religion whose followers insist that their beliefs be accommodated at all costs, yet whose own religion is the most intolerant on earth? Nor do you mention the fact that Islamic countries ban the Bible and the wearing of crosses.

Your own attitude may explain why so many people are hostile to Islam. Western societies accommodate many religions, and the Koran has not been banned in any Western country, so perhaps you could explain to us why Islamic countries do not practice the same courtesy and respect regarding other religions.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 3:45:54 PM
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So dee, you support the banning of Korans?
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 4:44:50 PM
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Irf - re banning the koran.

On the contrary, I think the koran should be studied publically by Arabic speaking (not necessarily Muslim) scholars. I would certainly like a learned explanation of all those verses recommending that 'infidels' like myself be persecuted, converted by force or murdered. So far we have had mealy-mouthed 'translations' by people with a vested interest (eg, 'jihad' is a spiritual concept only). Lets have a real translation. People should also be made aware of the Muslim belief that the koran cannot be changed, since it came directly from Allah via his prophet Mohammed. According to the koran, those who hate me and wish me dead are 'good Muslims'.

A debate on Islam in the public domain would be a good thing. Muslims could explain to us the meaning of 'taqiyya', a concept completely foreign to Christians, whose holy books tell them that lying is unacceptable under any circumstances.

I am not generally in favour of banning anything because it usually achieves nothing. Even the vile, ignorant hate literature sold in some Islamic bookshops gives us valuable information about those who hate us.

I have answered your question, perhaps you can now respond to mine.

“Abu Musab al-Zarqawi deserves to be cut into pieces because he hurt, killed the people and slaughtered the Muslims”.

True. But there is no compassion here (or anywhere in the Islamic world) for anyone but Muslims. Please explain.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 5:53:46 PM
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Banning the Qur'an will not eliminate the terrorist problem. Since most good muslims are encouraged to memorise the whole book without a second thought about its meaning anyway.

By banning the Qur'an - which is primarily the terrorist's manual by excellence - it would only give it more religious substance than it actually deserves.

Instead may I suggest that the "holy" book be made compulsory reading for all our federal politicians - who I suspect have never done so - and then let's see if they still believe it has a place in our society. Let's put our elected to the test.

If they are still unsure that the book is not a direct threat to our democracy and freedoms - they should call a referendum.

Until the Qur'an is publicly scrutinised - like the bible has - it will remain a godly-inspired book in the mind of the uninformed general public - especially muslims who never dare to question its origins or teachings.

Let’s do everyone a favour – what have you got to hide Irfan? Put your book where your mouth is. Let’s ask Australians if the book should be freely available after they all read it.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 6:12:56 PM
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Many westerners think it is cool to kill people as long as you just press the tombols in your bomber cabin while listening pop music but its cruel to kill with knifes or any other primitive tools.

However I wont blame Christianity. Its really good to wash one's sins though not to prevent it. Islam is much better for humanity, as long as people follow the spiritual teaching of Muhammad, not literal Arab-biased interpretations on it.
Posted by Jelata, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:56:14 PM
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Christianity is far from perfect either. Last week, Russian and Polish authorities, side-by-side with neo-NAZIs, were arm in arm with Roman Catholic Priests. In Poland they storm trooped, burned down, and violently attacked the bohemian centre of Warsaw. The Polish Greens office was burned down. Night clubs were burned down. Then the Catholic priests and neo-nazis shared banners with hate slogans against socialists and homosexuals. Then they started bashing homosexuals, some killed a few, and the priests just watched in amusement. Then they did the same thing again in Russia. Standing right behind them was the Pope, the one who was Hilter's youth.

The neo-NAZIs and their catholic priest friends, their Government thugs only have one description. Terrorist! When will the US bomb the Vatican? I mean, this was an act of terrorism, c'mon, what is this war? Is this a war against terrorism, or a war against Islam, make up your mind! Who or what exactly is the war against?

Then they have the gall to critisise Islam. Who would Jesus bomb? How many poofs would Jesus bash? When would Jesus join Hitler's Youth because everyone else did? Would Jesus tell everyone to kill the Islams? I mean, the bible is not exactly a nice and peaceful pretty book either. In the Jesus movement, they didn't mince their words, the churches do this for us. The church is far from innocent in comparison to Islam. Lest we forgot the holocaust and that digusting NAZI imposter imposing as the pope: the son of God, no less. As such, how dare Catholics excuse themselves with: "he is only human" then say "he represents God".

Shame on the Vatican. They betrayed the Jews too in WWII under Pope Pius who worked with Hitler frequently. They haven't changed at all, nor have they said sorry.
Posted by saintfletcher, Thursday, 15 June 2006 4:01:24 AM
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saintfletcher,

You have some valid points there - muddled up but honest.

The pope is not the son of God - only Jesus Christ is. The popes see themselves as the direct line to the apostle Peter who the catholic religion believes was the stone on which God Jesus founded His church...only Jesus is the stone and the head of the church - no middle man is needed... but that's for another thread...

Have you heard of the reformation?

Christianity in my opinion should not be confused with organised religion. Christians have an intimate relationship with God and don't need a priest or pope to manage their lives.

In view of your opinions, would you support the banning of the bible too? Please refer to my previous post.
Posted by coach, Thursday, 15 June 2006 9:15:05 AM
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About 100,000 Iraqis have been bombed to bits by the coalition of the killing and that was two years ago, details today show that about 750,000 Iraqis have fled and become refugees in the last year and others are to follow. All of this was predicted by those of us who said "don't go and blow up Iraq" but it gives us no comfort that it was true.

The US has detailed how Zarqawi died - for 52 minutes they watched as he literally suffocated on his own blood. The monstrosity of this will be lost on the bloody thirsty but the US were there for the whole time.

The US also now claim they dumped the bodies of the two innocent women and young girl with the Iraqis so the question is "did they also take 52 minutes of gasping for air to die while the US watched"? and what was the crime of the women and girl?

No person has the right to gloat over the brutal death of another because they just prove they are as savage as those they call savages.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 15 June 2006 1:31:30 PM
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dee wrote ...

“Abu Musab al-Zarqawi deserves to be cut into pieces because he hurt, killed the people and slaughtered the Muslims”. True. But there is no compassion here (or anywhere in the Islamic world) for anyone but Muslims. Please explain.

dee, can you please provide positive proof that every single Muslim has no compassion? Please advise of what demographic surveys you have done of Muslim communities in the 52-plus Muslim majority states.

Until you are able to provide this evidence, I think most sensible people here will agree with me that your fatwas against Muslims are just xenaphobia and prejudice.
Posted by Irfan, Thursday, 15 June 2006 4:18:07 PM
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coach says ...

"Let’s do everyone a favour – what have you got to hide Irfan? Put your book where your mouth is. Let’s ask Australians if the book should be freely available after they all read it."

coach, any Australian can go to their library and read an English translation of the Quran. Alternatively, they can go to their bookshop and buy one. And if they don't have access to a bookshop but do have access to the internet, they can go to http://www.andalus.com.au and buy a copy online.

These opportunities are open to all Aussies. It's ok, coach. Not even the giant Islamic conspiracy in your head cannot stop Aussies from reading the Quran people like me are apparently so keen to hide.
Posted by Irfan, Thursday, 15 June 2006 4:49:15 PM
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Jelata – I don’t personally know any Westerners who think its ‘cool’ to kill at a distance. And if there are those who do think this way, why blame it on Christianity?

Please explain to us what you mean by the ‘spiritual teachings of Muhammed’ – are you claiming that the Koran as we know it is not correct? Or has been mistranslated? Even if this is so, the sure way to understand Mohammed is to look at his actions. Fortunately, these are part of recorded history and we do not need to depend on the Koran. Mohammed led armies, planned raids and ordered the assassination of his enemies.

• Ibn Ishaq, (Muhammad’s earliest biographer and a devout Muslim) recounts the massacre of the Jewish Banu Qurayzah: “The apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of Banu Qurayza] and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches....There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900.” (Ibn Ishaq’s Sira, 689).

•Mohammed married his wife Aisha at the age of 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9.

How is emulating this behaviour ‘better for humanity?

Irf – obviously I have not taken a ‘compassion survey’ in the Islamic community, but the memory of Muslims celebrating the deaths on 9/11 and Bali probably influences my opinions. I have not seen any Muslim compassion for Western victims of terrorism – I have heard and read a few mealy-mouthed, far from convincing statements by Islamic leaders, always followed by ‘but’… can you provide evidence of compassion? If you can, please do so.

Re my 'fatwa' - an entirely Islamic concept, please do not apply such barbarisms to me. I do not order (or wish for) the death of anyone who 'insults' my religion or with whom I disagree.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 15 June 2006 4:57:09 PM
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Dee, ask soldiers who defeated Iraqis. American are the master in killing from distance. Tomahawk is really cool missile, eh. It is good in remembering terrain map so it doesnt need guidance from satellites. You may need a kind of "Adobe Photoshop" before you want to shutdown enemy military targets, just be careful not to explode civilian wedding parties, satellites are often wrong. Entertaining, right?

American soldiers were listening music while playing with the death buttons. Look at Farenheit 911 movie, you will get a kind of illustration.

I suggest Bush challenges Saddam in one to one fighting with Dayaknese blades so he will know what blood and murder are.

About the islamic matters, simply go to your bookstore and read Karen Amstrong book about Muhammed. Surely she's a bit neutral. Or get read on wikipedia. You must get a bit detail about the situations in 675 A.D in arabia. Muhammad was a great spiritual. No problems with his successor expansionism, fighting Romans and Persians empire were considered heroic at those eras.

You also must note that Islam came peacefully to East Asia region brought by merchants (muslims were good in navigation) and sufis (islamic mystics). Chinese Muslim Admiral Zenghe sailed peacefully to these countries. Meanwhile Christianity came to these islands along with Dutch's galleons and gunpowder, not to mention all their dirty politics. Dont worry I dont blame christianity, but sometime I cannot be very objective.
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 15 June 2006 7:03:27 PM
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Jelata – Western technology is superior and can target from a distance. Is it more moral to kill up close and personal with a knife or to hack off the heads of bound captives rather than use a Tomohawk missile? You may wish to ponder how many innocent Westerners have been killed by Islamic terrorists while attending parties, eating lunch or working – or how about going to Bali on holidays only to be slaughtered by resident murdering religious fanatics? Let me assure you that tourists do not often run the risk of being murdered because of their religion in Australia.

‘American soldiers were listening music ..’ I don’t need to see a movie to know the nature of war, but why pick on American soldiers when there are brave jihadis hacking the heads off Christian schoolgirls (Thailand)? Why pick on American soldiers when so many Muslims danced in the streets in celebration of Western deaths? The hit record in the Middle East recently was titled 'I hate Israel' - and Muslims in general seem to have no idea how shameful and backward this is.

‘You also must note that Islam came peacefully to East Asia region ..’ Perhaps that is so, I am more familiar with Western history, but is this still the case? Muslim fanatics are causing bloodshed in almost every Asian country today. Why is that?

Perhaps the Dutch did practice dirty politics (along with every other country on earth) but you cannot compare the past with the present. The corruption, stagnation and economic failure of Islamic countries is the reason why Western countries have been flooded with millions of Muslim immigrants and illegals, this is a one-way traffic. Doesnt that tell you something about Islamic societies?

Re Mohammed – I have read the book you mention. Mohammed’s actions are recorded history yet you continue to believe that he was a spiritual man. Perhaps you are the one who needs to do more research on the life of Mohammed.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 15 June 2006 8:31:21 PM
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Dee, murdering people is always evil wether you use knifes or missiles. But then Iraqis' atrocities toward the captives is a crime that is result of anothers crime: bombarding them and their families. If US soldiers were using knifes to strike iraqis then perhaps it would be more civilized, at least it would not cost children lifes.

About the news about muslim terrorist you quote, please dont believe to any news before you do a bit research before. I do live among muslims that you would call them terrorist but Islam prohibit killing women and children even in battle and they will like usual will follow the code strictly.

For example about 9/11 tragedy. Im not a conspiracy theorist but as an engineer I'm near sure the collapse of WTC's are the result of controlled demolitions. So we must put all the explanations into question, not just believe what we want to believe. Read my friend, read from many sides of arguments you could be a wise inhabitant of this poor earth.

About Muhammad history, relax friend I'm always best informed. I'm a moderate muslim who are able to criticise the version of Islam tought to me by the tradition.

If you someday are well informed about Islam at least you will hold a level of view similar to Karen Amstrong, or at least like Clifford Geertz, or hopefully like Franz Magnis Suseno, they are no amateurs, they are orientalists. But dont fell into Snouck Horgronye, he is a mean of imperialism.
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 15 June 2006 9:37:03 PM
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@Coach, I never said the Pope was the son of God, I said that catholics consider him God's representative. Of course I don't think they should ban the Bible. Nor should they ban the Q'aran. Thanx for considering a radical idea. I think true Christians in the Jesus movement include peace activist Cindy Sheehan, and the Christians Against All Terrorism (Quakers) who are being charged for raiding Pine Gap: their illegal photos and reports can be found on www.pinegap6.org They will face a 7 year jail term in a sentence due in Alice Springs in August for breaching national security. Australia will be locking up Christian Quaker matyrs, who are defending peace, against the occupation in Iraq. Now those are in the real Jesus movement. Bless them, I really think they are like saints. They are doing what Jesus would do against our Pontius Pilate PM. They are making peace, the military is fighting peace.

We have inspiring Australian Islamic peace activists too. Far example Joumanah El Matrah, Dr Salam Ismael, Roya Sahraei and the Mayor of the Moreland City Council in Victoria. They are all against terrorism, and simply want peace. Even the Australian union movement has adopted Islam under their protection, and the Australian Government could expect bans on supplies to the occupations, especially from the Australian Maritimes Union.

We have good people in Australia, and even in the US I have repeated this many times. It is just that we have very bad leaders, and we get the blame. I agree, I think the WTC was a demolition plan between the Bin Ladens and the Bush's. The Bin Laden family got the contract to build the new tower on the graves of the victims. I cried like a baby when those towers came down, I used to spend time there and I loved the place. I didn't sleep for weeks worrying about what will happen next.

Maybe these were the contracts they had when they were so hastily flown out of the US, shortly after the 9/11 towers fell. All is not what it seems.
Posted by saintfletcher, Friday, 16 June 2006 2:14:34 AM
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Irfan,

Nice try - I know very well that the Qur'an is freely available - my very point was in response to your suggestion to dee (above) : SHOULD the Qur'an ba banned...?

You skilfully (as a good lawyer) picked my last point and twisted it to your advantage.

All a conspiracy in my head? Oh no Irfan I don't think so.

In view of the latest statements by the unrepentant Bali terrorist Abu-bakr Bashir ... and his unbashful references to the Qur'anic texts... here's my post again for all concerned Australians to read:

1. Banning the Qur'an will not eliminate the terrorist problem. Since most good muslims are encouraged to memorise the whole book without a second thought about its meaning anyway.

2. By banning the Qur'an - which is primarily the terrorist's manual by excellence - it would only give it more religious substance than it actually deserves.

3. Instead may I suggest that the "holy" book be made compulsory reading for all our federal politicians - who I suspect have never done so - and then let's see if they still believe it has a place in our society. Let's put our elected to the test.

4. If they are still unsure that the book is not a direct threat to our democracy and freedoms - they should call a referendum.

5. Until the Qur'an is publicly scrutinised - like the bible has - it will remain a godly-inspired book in the mind of the uninformed general public - especially muslims who never dare to question its origins or teachings.

6. Let’s do everyone a favour – what have you got to hide Irfan? Put your book where your mouth is. Let’s ask Australians if the book should be freely available after they all read it
Posted by coach, Friday, 16 June 2006 9:31:49 AM
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Jelata says :

>>Im not a conspiracy theorist but as an engineer I'm near sure the collapse of WTC's are the result of controlled demolitions.<<

So what is the reason for that "demolition" Mr Engineer? And who in your opinion was behind it?

BTW - An Israel Defense Forces intelligence officer has confirmed that the explosion that killed eight Palestinians on a beach on Friday, was caused by a stockpile of Hamas explosives.

So Mr moderate muslim are we to believe that all islamic terrorist attacks are a fictitious illusion?

While you are at it can you explain to us why the Qur'an is anti Jewish - and why does Hamas want to eliminate Israel in the name of Allah and his holy book? Or is that another conspiracy perhaps?

What is your definition of "moderate muslim" ? Do you disagree with some of the radical teachings of your god Allah? If he commends you to kill non-muslims in dar-el-harb would you say NO to your god?

Enlighten us please.
Posted by coach, Friday, 16 June 2006 12:24:07 PM
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coach writes ...

"All a conspiracy in my head? Oh no Irfan I don't think so. In view of the latest statements by the unrepentant Bali terrorist Abu-bakr Bashir ..."

coach, the conspiracy is in your head. You simply cannot prove that every single Muslim has even heard of Abubakar Bashir, let alone agrees with him.

If serious readers are to accept your conspiratorial rants as real, the onus is on you to prove beyond reasonable doubt that every single Muslim across the planet (or at least in our region) agrees with the rants of Bashir.

That means you must interview every single Muslim and ask specific questions about his/her attitude toward non-Muslims. Are you prepared to carry out this research?

Perhaps the reason you love citing Bashir so much is because you find his approach attractive. In fact, your views about Muslims mirror his views about non-Muslims.

Basically what I am saying, coach, is that you are an aussie and nominally christian version of Bashir. Further, your rhetoric serves the purposes of Bashir, bin Ladin, Zarqawi and others of similar ilk.

These extremists want ordinary Muslims to believe they are just 2nd class citizens who are hated by their host countries. Your deep and virulent hatred for Muslims and their religion serves to confirm the claims of bin Ladin and Bashir.

But having travelled in 3 major Javanese cities and having met Indonesians of all faiths, I can attest to the fact that few Indonesians share Bashir's hatred. And having lived in Australia for 37 years, I can thank God Almighty most of us Aussies don't share your hatred.
Posted by Irfan, Friday, 16 June 2006 5:20:09 PM
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dee writes ...

"You may wish to ponder how many innocent Westerners have been killed by Islamic terrorists while attending parties, eating lunch or working – or how about going to Bali on holidays only to be slaughtered by resident murdering religious fanatics? Let me assure you that tourists do not often run the risk of being murdered because of their religion in Australia."

Perhaps you didn't know that the people who had their car smashed at Cronulla were visitors from Bangladesh. And that the guy who got bashed on the train was an Aussie of Afghan heritage.

Also, dee, perhaps you should talk to Balinese. I met a Balinese chap a few weeks ago. He told me that the bulk of those dead in all Bali bombings were Indonesians, both Hindu and Muslim.

dee, if you hate Muslims and Middle Easterners so much, you might wish to find a new saviour. Because my Messiah Jesus Christ was of Middle Eastern appearance. And people with your kinds of attitudes would have assaulted him and his mother if they appeared on Cronulla beach in December.

dee, if you were a true Australian, you wouldn't be so full of hatred. The diggers at Gallipoli had more respect for their Turkish enemy than you have for your fellow Australians.
Posted by Irfan, Friday, 16 June 2006 5:26:54 PM
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Re: the bombing of Al Zarqawi's place. Could someone tell us why the US Military bombed the place rather than go in and try and capture these terrorists? I think this needs to be cleared up because we wouldn't want people to be thinking that the Christian West condone the murder of innocent civilians to get at one terrorist?

We wouldn't want people to be thinking that Christian Bush was trying to make an example of what his military machine can do with a bit of terrorism of its own.

It may have been that the Zarqawi's place was loaded with explosives and the US didn't want the bad publicity of more US deaths in the raid. But then again thousands of good, young US lads and girls are being lured/conned to their deaths each day in USA and die in Iraq in other raids with hardly a mention. Bad PR.

Boaz so you're a Christian ? You say: "For the sake of the relatives of those who Zarkawi beheaded, they should have taken his, put it on a stake and displayed with a sign 'God is not mocked, We reap what we sow'". And you talk of barbarianism among other cultures. For God's sake shut the #@*& up. ( You wanna been careful wit dat spellin’ you mate Sorro call you “bloody idijt”.) (:

Boaz.

Ephesians Ch. 4, v. 6.

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Note the word "all". If God is in you all, then the preparation for war, the killing of any person, especially the thousands of innocents that have been killed by the US invaders in Iraq is the killing of God Himself. To kill another is to kill that bit of God in that person. Every time a person turns to violence unnecessarily they turn against God. You can rationalise until you turn black in da' face but there is no two ways about it.
Posted by rancitas, Friday, 16 June 2006 5:35:25 PM
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Further to Rancitas' last post. On a Nationalistic level, I once asked Boaz what the Kangaroo and Emu on Australian coat of arms symbolised. They symbolise never taking a backward step once cornered. Don't worry I didn't know either until an immigrant told me. He learnt at his citizenship thingy - hey Grasshopper). A kangaroo and emu will do as much as they can to avoid a fight but if you take it to them then they can’t go backwards. Australians used to hold that belief firmly.

Only in defence. Lest We Forget.

Irfan I have been reading the Koran lately and it is much more bellicose and aggressive than the Bible. No two ways about it.

I, for example, was trying to compare "He Frowned" SURA LXXX section with a similar section in the Bible, The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians and frankly gave up on it.

I understand why the fundamentalists rely on boosting the threatening parts to secure obedience. To me it has a baseness and a political tone that puts me right off. Mind you I am not the flashest mailbox in the street.

No offence, but the Bible, I think, is a much richer, more authentic text. It seems to be mostly reaching out, rather than threatening. But remember I am just a born again pagan.
Koran:
"And the faces on that day with dust upon them:
Blackness shall cover them!
These are the infidels, the impure."

Rancitas is in deep shieet.

Bible:
"Let no man deceive you with vain word: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Damn Rancitas still in deep shieet.

Having said that, the thing with the Christians is that, if you compare their behaviour with their text, certain Christians are just as violent and barbaric as those fundamentalists that read the Koran without consideration for the context of the various sections.

Some "Christians" clearly have the same barbaric mindset as terrorists and their propagandists. A friendly piece of pagan advice from the wicked sensitive a one. (:
Posted by rancitas, Friday, 16 June 2006 6:08:21 PM
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Jelata – So atrocities committed by Iraqis are the result of the crimes of others? Innocent families in the West have also been slaughtered, yet I don’t recall the survivors committing atrocities against local Muslims. They somehow refrained from beheading and burning down mosques in revenge. If they had done so, I'm sure you would not give them a free pass for their actions on the same grounds you use to excuse Iraqis.

If Islam forbids killing women and children, why are so many Muslims doing it? What crime was committed by the Australians in Bali who were slaughtered? Oh, that’s right – they were ‘white’, they were enjoying themselves and of course, they were supposedly leading ‘good Muslims’ to drink alcohol. Same old excuses, same old rationalizations. Muslims are never responsible, they have no minds to decide issues for themselves, its always someone else’s fault.

We will agree to disagree on the subject of Mohammed’s spirituality.

Irf - you have cited a few non-Australians caught in the Cronulla riots (which were a first ever occurrence) – I refer to the hundreds of Westerners deliberately murdered in Bali; I am aware that Balinese were also killed, but Balinese are Hindus. Are we expected to believe that JI cared about killing non-Muslim Indonesians?

I am not ‘full of hatred’, I am simply, like many Australians, very very tired of arrogant Islamic immigrants and ‘refugees’ trying to force their religion and customs onto us and whining about ‘racism’ and ‘victimisation’ when we refuse to accept it. The attitude of the Muslim community was blazingly apparent when the Cronulla Task Force received a total of 8 phone calls regarding the thugs involved in revenge attacks – yet Australian parents involved insisted that their sons turn themselves into police. Quite a contrast.

And, no – I don’t need to assault anyone to get my point across. The over-representation of Muslims in prison and in the welfare system makes my point for me. 'Good Muslims' do not make up for the crime and violence brought to Australia via Islamic immigration.
Posted by dee, Friday, 16 June 2006 6:17:52 PM
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Well said dee and hello all!

Irf, your co religionists are just not worth it mate. The amount of time and effort expended keeping them in check is astronomical. I did it for seven years in just one small section of Sydney in just one of our institutions, the NPWS. They were our biggest problem.

I've often wondered why you stick up for your religion as you do. You know that your co religionists cause trouble where ever they go. You seem like a somewhat intelligent and compassionate bloke and being raised as a mossie just doesn't account for it.

I think you've got some inheritance due some day and you have to keep up up appearances. Or, it could simply just be the fact that you don't want upset mum.

Anyway Irf, name me one minority in Australia that causes as much grief as your lot does.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Friday, 16 June 2006 7:43:16 PM
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I think Dee must have alzheimers. Attacks against Muslums in western countries are well documented and numerous. See for yourself:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Special%20Reports/Pictures%20of%20Torture%20And%20Sexual%20Abuse%20of%20Iraqi%20Prisoners%20By%20US-UK%20Soldiers.htm
MANCHESTER, England, Sept 18: the Alvia mosque on Bromwich Street in Bolton, Greater Manchester
http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/19/article5.shtml
Toronto, Canada, June 04, 2006 the International Muslim Organization of Toronto
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002278.html
The US:
http://www.adl.org/terrorism_america/adl_responds.asp

Chicago: attacks on Arab Americans in the Greater Chicago area, including an assault on a gas station attendant perceived as Arab American, a Molotov cocktail thrown at the Arab Educational School.

Cleveland: A man drove his car through the front entrance of Ohio's largest mosque, The Islamic Center of Cleveland

Dallas: Denton, Texas an attempted firebombing on September 13 of the Islamic Society of Denton mosque.

Houston: At least one Islamic school in the Houston area was forced to remain closed.

San Francisco: a vicious attack on the local Islamic Center. The center's windows were smashed in the early morning hours of December 9, 2001

@coach, all Government members reading the Qu'ran is overkill. The Foreign Affairs Minister and Immigration Minister would suffice.

@Boaz, Jeleta and Rancitas, did you see this site: http://www.compfused.com/directlink/3587

Do you agree there is something immoral about the way they bombed Zarqawi's neighbouhood?

Further, @ Jeleta and Rancitas, the Islamic people I mentioned before, I understand, are now Australian citizens, I think makes them Australian. The Islamic Mayor of Moreland City Council now swears in other new Australian citizens. There is no us and them...

It will take time to clue us all together with multiculturalism. Too many bombs and too many lies.
Posted by saintfletcher, Friday, 16 June 2006 8:18:18 PM
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Dee and Coach, yes, what seem in the surfaces may differ to the real realities. It is just a basic wisdom, like the teaching "the tao that could be experienced is not the real tao", "who ever desireless will see the essence" and etc-etc.

I could tell the story that bombings in indonesia that cost the live of many australians, actually inconsistent with the strategy of radical muslims in indonesia, and still questionable for being orchestrated by them, but I'm no capable in enlighting others when their prejudice are still clouding their minds.

Seems religious issues remains sensitive for people both in the east and west. I hope the day come when finally people believe in "many peaces", that is nobody think it is necessary to wipe other's version of peace to bring this world into more peaceful planet. And no body could deliberately ignites sentiment between religious groups.

Religius fanaticism of any religion are dangerous for any societies but then we the conscious must help our closest people towards healthy understandings to their religions.

And also necessary to take wholistic approach not only using religions as the only equation. As for Indonesia, to those who are interested to a bit detailed explanation on its religious issues, read this writing from a Catholic priest:

http://www.sedos.org/english/Suseno.htm
Posted by Jelata, Friday, 16 June 2006 10:27:46 PM
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@saintfletcher
1) Zarqawi got what he deserved. My only regret is he wasn't taken alive.
Now, we could have tried politely knocking on his door (of course after 9AM) and asking him to accompany us to the station for questioning -but I somehow suspect that that may not have worked.
Though I am sure saintfletecher, you with your great powers of persuasion & tolerance could have pulled it off.
Next time we have a Zarqawi like character to arrest, we'll give you a call.

2) “It will take time to clue us all together with multiculturalism” -and you have a sense of humor too!
Multiculturalism is at the root of a lot of our current problems
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 17 June 2006 7:45:18 AM
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G'day All

Here's a koran that you can read online, it comes complete with annotations

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

Irf. About 15 years ago the US began accepting Somali mossies.

Many went to Minnesota and they now have at least 40000 of them. Which is strange as Minnesota is very feminist and as you know Somalis do have a tendency to mutilate the vaginas of young girls. Well it's not so strange actually, feminists have often supported barbaric patriarchal cultures.

Anyway, the youngsters of these immigrants are approaching physical maturity. Lo and behold articles are appearing about how violent crime and rapes are increasing,(at least 15% in the last year) they're not mentioning any names though.

However you'll read things like this...

http://www.policeone.com/Grants/articles/126873/

It's about how the police receive grants to help them 'reach out' and contend with 'issues' among the mossie community.

In other articles you'll read about the 'need' for more somali speaking officers, why?

You also need the latest tech stuff

http://www.policeone.com/reports/92535/

Irf, if Minnesota said no they wouldn't have these problems, these people and your ideaology are just not worth it.

The tradgedy of all this is that the Minnesotans had the luxury to simply look at what happened to western countries that were stupid enough to accept any number of mossies within their borders. They chose to ignore it and will pay the price for years to come.

Saintfletch, this is multiculturalism, it sucks
Posted by CARNIFEX, Saturday, 17 June 2006 9:57:11 AM
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“I think Dee must have alzheimers” – how witty, what brilliant repartee. Laughably stale and unoriginal, so you didn’t even need to spend much time in thought. Usually I wouldn’t bother to respond to anyone who would say something so lame and offensive to those suffering from or affected by this disease, but in this case –

Re Chicago – the people of Chicago witnessed widespread celebration by the Muslims of Dearborn on 9/11, so I’m not surprised that their tolerance is wearing thin. Otherwise, your list is a joke when compared to the attacks made by Islamic terrorists. Smashed windows? A school forced to remain closed? Are you kidding? Did you forget to list the number of dead and those who were captured and beheaded by angry American mobs? How about car bombs? What, no Christian terrorists planting car bombs and blowing up mosques?

‘Do you agree there is something immoral about the way they bombed Zarqawi's neighbouhood?’ No. However, there is something immoral in the way that Muslim terrorists hide behind their women and children, or use them for guinea pigs, as happened in Gaza the other day. Zarqawi thought it was a safe house. It wasn’t as safe as he believed. End of story. Its fortunate that we were not ruled by people like you 60 years ago – we would probably be speaking German or Japanese right now.

‘I think makes them Australian’. – Fine. If the people you mention define themselves as Australians, and their primary loyalty is to this country, that is more than acceptable to me. The Muslims that bother me are the ones who have no loyalty to this country and do not define themselves as Australians, and there are plenty of those. How do I know? They tell us so with monotonous regularity.

"It will take time to clue us all together with multiculturalism" –

Multiculturalism is an unworkable joke that was imposed upon Australians without their permission. It has not worked anywhere in the world.
Posted by dee, Saturday, 17 June 2006 1:28:30 PM
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Irfan,

You've done it again - avoiding the questions and making me look like the vilain. Bravo!

To be a muslim is to agree and follow the law and rituals as set by Allah and his books. Right?

I am not inventing or adding anything to what your religion demands of you.

Nominal or moderate muslims are still muslims; it is when they become pious and start reading the pages of the Qur'an that most become radical and when they do, they usually blow themeselves up in the name of Allah the almighty god.

So the nominal modern secular muslims ... will not condone nor condemn terrorists acts. Its all part of Islam. Deep down they will agree with bin laden - before they agree with john Howard or bush.

The difference between a Moderate muslim and a Radical islamist is like being moderately pregnant and radically pregnant.

Irfan, can I ask you why you are a muslim? If you were not born a muslim... would you have still chosen islam? on what rationale?

It bothers me a lot that muslims don't question their religion. They are so satisfied (or terrified) believing that it is the right path because some arabian nomad decided so. To examine their doctrines (is there any?) is forbidden and considered a grave sin.

I know why I am a Christian. My decision was based on concrete evidencial revelations from prophets, events, history, ... and finally God Himself becoming flesh in Jesus.

What about Islam? where is the evidence of divine revelation? the words of mohammad?

Islam is a political movement rapped in a religious coating. Muslims all over this planet have more in common than you want us to believe. Jihad (in all its forms) and islamic law (from Allah) are two universal codes that all muslim agree and respect above respect for their host country and its laws.

Islam is a goverment in waiting - regardless if it takes 15 or 150 years to render Australia islamic. It has no long term interrest in democracy or freedom. Just power for Allah.
Posted by coach, Saturday, 17 June 2006 4:00:13 PM
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Coach - " .. muslims don't question their religion."

- or rather, *won't* question their religion.

I am tired of the inevitable accusation of 'hating Muslims' directed at anyone who criticises Islam and the antisocial behaviour of many Muslims - perfect example: Irf's dramatic attacks against me - that I am 'full of hate' etc etc. Another is the old 'you-have-not-interviewed-every-Muslim-so-how-can-you-know ....' ploy.

Of course not every Muslim is an Osama sympathiser, and I'm sure that many Muslims individually wish to live in peace. This is not the point. The simple truth is that the West has everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing millions of Islamic immigrants to settle in our countries. Dont believe it? Take a trip to Europe.

The generations-old problems in Islamic countries will not be fixed by inflicting them on the West.

Irf - 'The diggers .. had more respect for their Turkish enemy than you have for your fellow Australians.'

Who are 'these fellow Australians' I am supposed to respect?

Re Gallipoli: Even when two "Turks" (really Afghans) shot up a picnic train in Broken Hill on 1 January 1915, there were no actual anti-Muslim riots here (although it came close). This attack on innocent civilians was in 'revenge' for Gallipoli. The murderers fired 20 or 30 shots, killing Elma Cowie and three men and wounding six, including 4 women. One of the killers was an iman from the Broken Hill Mosque. By order of the Attorney General, all ‘enemy aliens’ in Australia were interned for the duration of the war.

The Melbourne Argus headline:

"Turks Attack Train; Entrenched near railway; Broken Hill Sensation; Four Picnickers Killed; Seven others Wounded; Police Shoot Murderers."

Innocent civilians murdered while on a picnic in 'revenge' for something they were not involved in - -- doesn't this have the ring of familiarity?
Posted by dee, Saturday, 17 June 2006 7:33:04 PM
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The WMD conspiracy theory started the war against Iraq in the first place. This was incorrect. The alliance of the willing declared "a war against terrorism": Not a war against Islam.

Yet many arguements here discussing the terrorist: Zarqawqi are anti Islamic. Put the qua'rans and bibles away. This is supposed to be irrelevant.

Then the excuse was that they had to liberate the Iraqi people. They just divided the Iraqis by chaos and more bombings. It was a disaster. Then they said they had to stay longer to make them democractic. It didn't work; it never will.

So many innocent lives of Iraqis have been slain on a lie, and thousands of US soldiers, many unemployed African Americans recuited at Wal Mart car parks, have been been sent back in body bags.

They refuse to stop the killing with the excuse that so many have been killed, that they must kill more in the legacy of their dead war heros. This is a wicked spin.

So even liberation has nothing to do with it now. Condalisa Rice said "sometimes you just have to drop bombs". She is not safe in many African American areas: she killed their children as cannon fodder. The Americans have worked it out. Bush's opinion polls are way down. It is a lie and it is time to move on.

Now the Australians want the war more than the Americans or the British do. Why? Did the yobbos fail to complete the Cronulla riots? Why do so many Australians think that this is a war against Islam?

They got one terrorist: Zarqawi. But they could have got him without dropping a huge bomb, killing innocent children. He was not worth thousands of African American unemployed mall kids, and many thousands of Iraqis, in the overall war.

When we invaded Iraq, Osama Bin Landen, a Saudi, laughed even more. The superpowers and Australia walked right into his trap. Where is Bin Laden? He was never in Iraq?

Who is the enemy? When will it stop?
Posted by saintfletcher, Saturday, 17 June 2006 7:33:56 PM
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G'day,

dee, coach & carnifex, my goal in engaging you in dialogue was so that people here could gauge the extent of your deep-seated and obsessive hatred of anything even remotely related to Islam and Muslims.

I have succeeded in my goal. Thank you. It should now be clear to all and sundry that your hate-filled expressed views are so alien to Australian values and Judeo-Christian ethics that they should be dismissed as rabble. You bring disrepute upon yourselves, upon the faiths and cultures you claim to represent and upon these forums.

I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here (though I can't help but wonder if they would allow such comments if any other faith were the target). The fact remains that you simply cannot find anything even remotely positive to say about things even remotely connected to Islam and Muslims. If that isn't hatred, what is?

Still, it isn't against the law to harbour hatred for others. I just hope you never act on that hatred.

I think the rest of us on these forums should be thankful the vast majority of Australians (indeed, the vast majority of human beings) aren't as inspired by such venom and hatred.
Posted by Irfan, Saturday, 17 June 2006 9:23:34 PM
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Irfan,

What you have succeeded to demonstrate to us is that there is nothing good about Islam full stop.

When I asked you why you were a muslim, you have once more resorted to personal attacks in lieu of answering simple direct questions. I say you can’t handle the truth my boy.

As a representative of Islam on these forums, and a moderate muslim intellectual Aussie bred type, when it comes to showing us your true colours, you quickly put on your chameleon coat for the occasion.

Unless you agree with what I’ve said before, my questions and remarks remain open to you or any other defender of Islam...

The majority of Australians would love to know - what is so good about islam before we declare it a pesaceful religion.
Posted by coach, Sunday, 18 June 2006 8:12:06 AM
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Coach referred to legitimate Quranic verses such as

"Kill them when they attack you", and this is where the astute muslim points out 'This is defensive'.

When they neglect the numerous justifications in the Hadith such as:

"Justification for killing women and chidren during the night raids, so long as it is not deliberate"

I've referenced these with sources b4 so I won't repeat it this time.
The problem here is that when you think about

1/ Night raids
2/ Women and children

Its hard to imagine that an attacking army has brought along 'the whole family' from their Roman base camps or remote Arabian villages to enjoy the battle.

So it raises the questions
1/ "How is attacking at night, and killing women and children in reality defense" ?
2/ "How does this fit the normal profile of an attacking army"?

Of course we all know that attack is the best form of defense, so this is ok as far as it goes, BUT.... it totally takes the wind out of any claim that Islam can only 'fight defensively' against active attackers.

The idea that there are women and children present in the enemy 'camp' suggests much more a 'village/town/city' environment than a mobile army.

If "Attack" can be called 'Defense' then does it matter if your mob is being attacked in Afghanistan, but you fight the attackers in Australia ? After all, you are 'defending Islam' attacking the attacker ...right ?

So, clearly Islam by tradition justifies the attack on any 'PERCEIVED' enemy, and also the slaughter of their women and children "as long as its not deliberate" But in those days, without bombs or grenades, the only way to kill someone is by sword, so.... don't you have to 'see' the person you are slicing ? Is it not possible to differentiate between "Adult" and "Child" ?

Dee's account of the train attack shows clearly the following:

"A significant number of ordinary Muslims will attack Australians if they believe Australia is attacking Muslims anywhere in the world"

Is this 'hate' or 'common sense and self preservation' ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 June 2006 8:51:51 AM
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Irf – How have you succeeded in your goal? You have not responded to one single question asked of you, you have simply engaged in name-calling and wordplay eg, ‘have you met every single Muslim ..’ .

Instead of rabidly attacking anyone who criticises Islam, why don’t you respond to the legitimate concerns about Muslim immigration? Why have you nothing to say about the situation in Europe, which can be laid directly at the door of Muslim immigrants and ‘refugees’? Why have you nothing to say about the antisocial behaviour of too many Muslims in Australia? Why have you nothing to say about people like Keysar Trad – if you want to throw around dramatic phrases like ‘full of hate’ why not look in the direction of SW Sydney? Or look at Trad’s idiot wife who trolled around Sydney in search of Australian ‘racism’ against women in burkhas – strange, she didn’t find it, obviously she neglected to look at herself.

You are correct on one thing – I do not find anything positive to say about Islam. How about using your superior knowledge and educating us on this topic? Tell us the positives of Islam. Tell us the benefits brought to Australia by Muslims. The floor is yours.

“ it isn't against the law to harbour hatred ..’ If it were, Muslims like Trad who have made so many offensive comments about Australia and Australians would be locked up, wouldn’t they?

‘ venom and hatred’ huh? I didn’t understand the true meaning of those terms until I began following the Arab media and listening to the outpourings of people like Bashir and the hate-mongers of Saudi Arabia - but lets not leave Australia out:

"The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country, and now, they only take the select choice of other societies, and the descendants of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us. And because we are not elitists, we tolerate them” – Keysar Trad, Muslim ‘spokesman’

If so many Australians dislike, or are wary, of Muslims, perhaps you should ask yourself why
Posted by dee, Sunday, 18 June 2006 2:42:52 PM
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If the majority of citizens of Indonesia have such a distrust of Basher, why do they entrust their precious sons to his tender care?
Or do they not mind if he brainwashes their offspring into becoming suicide bombers who do their worst among innocent people?
Why ,if he is regarded so badly, was he welcomed with such rapture?
And why do you wonder that muslims are so distrusted and viewed with absolute distaste?
Posted by mickijo, Sunday, 18 June 2006 3:12:08 PM
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Mickijo - Irf knows quite well why Muslims are so distrusted, but its easier to rant and rave than address the problem. Easier to accuse critics of being 'full of hate'. Easier to make snide little sanctimonious remarks hoping that we 'racists' never lose control of our hate-filled selves and start attacking Muslims. Dishing out insults is far easier than seriously examining the legitimate concerns about Islam and Muslim immigration. Poor victimised Muslims - What a joke. If I had a dollar for every Australian who has been:

* robbed at knifepoint/gunpoint by MOMEAS

* raped by MOMEAS

* insulted and threatened by MOMEAS

* forced off the road by MOMEAS

Well - I'd be a rich person wouldnt I. And let's not mention the 22 driveby shootings in Sydney so far this year (carried out by Lebenese Muslims) - in case it messes up Irf's 'poor Muslim victim' scenario.
Posted by dee, Sunday, 18 June 2006 8:05:30 PM
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I wish someone didn't mention the Bali bombings, it is hard enough for me to deal with the World Trade Centre.

I taught some of those kids that were killed in the Bali Bombings. As any teacher would, my heart sank and I actually threw-up my dinner when I saw their names on the news. I couldn't eat for days, or sleep. They were delightful Aussie kids.

I knew people who worked in the World Trade Centre, in advertising who were creative and wonderful people. They died at 9 / 11. Dead. It just didn't make sense.

Dee, my apologies for offending you or anyone with the word "alzheimers", I take that back. I was wrong.

With emotions aside over these deaths, I still think of the deaths of the Children in Iraq. Is it worth it?

Personally I don't understand this thing of raping and killing women and children as defence in the Qua'ran. I'm not Islamic, so I don't understand the context that it may be intended.

I noticed, however, something from most of the families and friends from the Bali bombs, and the World Trade Centre. Most are deeply hurt by what happened. They still don't blame the entire religion of Islam, and this is my point.

Personally I think that the Bali terrorist: Bashir should have the same sentence as the Australian drug smugglers: death. If Indonesia's inquisition legal system goes by example, then by example, it would be consistent to show respect for our kids that were murdered. He should never be released. Criminal. Whether he is Islam, Christian or Voo Doo, it makes no difference. But I am emotionally involved on this topic. Indonesia is a coward when they are ruthlessly tough on drugs, yet slack on terrorists because they are affraid of their own religion.

Yet we can't afford to cloud our minds in thinking that this is a holy war. It is a war that was supposed to be about terrorism. It is frustrating how Indonesia does not help this clarification.
Posted by saintfletcher, Monday, 19 June 2006 1:25:51 AM
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Dear Saint
just to be accurate here.
The "Justification of killing women and children" is not in the Quran.
Its in the hadith, which has many traditions from the words of Mohamed and is used as one basis of Islamic law.

Taken together (along with the histories and biographies) they constitute the 'Sunnah', from which the term 'Sunni' Muslims is derived.
The 2 main hadith (sayings/oral tradition) authorities in Islam are the Hadith by Bukhari and by Muslim (the guys name).
I better give you the actual reference so you can read it yourself.

It is correct that the accidental killing of woman and children in Iraq is QUITE ACCEPTABLE in Islamic law. So, if it repulses you, please be repulsed at the faith which specifically justifies it.

There is no "justification" of it by the West, it is described as a regrettable fact of an unfortunate war, driven by Muslim insurgents against their own ELECTED government at this time.

Book 019, Number 4321: (scroll down from the main web reference cited below, to this number.

Here is another quaint one
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html
Chapter 1: REGARDING PERMISSION TO MAKE A RAID, WITHOUT AN ULTIMATUM, UPON THE DISBELIEVERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO ACCEPT ISLAM
Book 019, Number 4292

This is in direct conflict with the Quranic idea of 'defensive' fighting only. It justifies the WTC attack and embassy attacks.

The 'spoils of war' (including women) made SPECIALLY LAWFUL for this UMMAH (Islamic community.) i.e. "Whats mine is mine and what is yours soon WILL be mine also." Book 019, Number 4327

The contrast between this tone and that of Jesus could not be more STARK.... I have not the slightest hesitation in saying "My religion is better than Islam" but to qualify, I don't see it as 'mine' I see the events of Christs life, death and resurrection as absolutely from God, so its 'His' religion if we have to use a term. There is no comparison.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 19 June 2006 9:29:31 AM
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Irfan, "I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here (though I can't help but wonder if they would allow such comments if any other faith were the target)."

Irfan have a read of some of the comments made about christains and their "faith" across various threads. The moderators have clearly allowed extensive discussion which includes comments which many chistians could find quite offensive. Likewise attacks on my own beliefs have been fairly intense at times and I have not seen signs of any posts being pulled for challenging the validity of athiest/agnostic beliefs or pulled for claims about the history of actions by people holding those viewpoints.

Many of those debates include an element of name calling etc but for the most part some of us on both sides of the christain/agnostic debate attempt to have dialog. Answering questions put to us, trying to put forward reasoned arguments to explain our viewpoints etc.

Other belief systems seem to have a much lower profile in Australia and don't come up for discussion in the same manner.

Your implied accusation against the moderators is in my view quite unfair and demonstrates a narrow viewpoint on your part. Get over your "poor us" mentality and start answering the questions put to you. Your failure to answer questions put by the mossie basher brigade plays into their hands.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 19 June 2006 9:34:19 AM
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Saintfletcher & all
I feel sorry for what happened in Bali and other terrorists attacks in Indonesia, such attacks are absolutely anti-Islamic.

But just to give you another point of view, this is mine.

Abu bakar bashir was not proven guilty for Bali bombings. Surely he is radical muslim, but not in the sense that he is a bomber terrorist. He and the rest of Surakartan radicalists were the enemies of the past regime, who ever forced Pancasila as the only allowed ideology in Indonesia, and those guys undergroundly had been rejecting such obligation for they thought Islam should be their first ideology. Their leaders were hunted by Suharto and some of them escaped to malaysia.

They have many things to do with the Indonesia Republic, and not likely their business were 'exploding the christians'. If they did such bombings, Indonesian leaders who ever presecuted them might be their first targets.

The western govs accused him because of his "inflammatory speeches". Finally he was charged for his plot against goverment, and an immigration scandal. The trial was just a kind of PR work of Indonesia government, and likely was not yet satisfactory for the western public.

The true orchestrators of those bombings are then, still misteriuous. Just like the 9/11,that raised many speculations.

If one think every muslims who ever gave 'inflammatory speech' must be sentenced to death, then I believe more other muslims would deserve to die, for even in Jumat prayers, often the radicalists sounds 'inflammatory' about America and Zionists' conspiracies. Perhaps you need to send bomber aircrafts regularly to their mosques.

But then what all the law instutions were built for, if ones want are just their satisfications. Should American drop an explosive to assasinate this Bashir,in order the western public to be satified?

Perhaps then, U.S gov and others has been doing these 'satisfactory' works in Afghan and Iraq. Satisfactory actions for their public need as well as the capitalists' needs behind those actions.
Posted by Jelata, Monday, 19 June 2006 4:19:46 PM
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"I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here (though I can't help but wonder if they would allow such comments if any other faith were the target)."

Comments like these on the Islamic site Umma Newslinks, perhaps?

A false report surfaced this week that the Danish editor of the paper that originally printed the Muhammad cartoons has been killed in a fire. Here are some comments from caring, humane Muslims:

* breaking - the artist who drew the pictures of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)has died in a fire. He was burned alive. Denmark government is hiding the news from the public and everyone has got to know. Plz spread this.... (its the price one must pay 4 the insult of Allahs Prophet(S.A.W).

* If this is true. Its a punishment WELL DESERVED. You don't mess with Allah(swt) last Prophet.

* his a NONMUSLIM...no mercy for u guyz when u die

* ook At This Double Standards.
Shiekh Abu Musab [al-Zarqawi] Rahimahullah Becomes A Shaheed And All The Kufaar [unbelievers] Are Happy. This Kaafir Dies And They Expect Us Not To Get Happy? If You Can get Happy Then So Can We.

* Allaaaaaaaaahu Akbarrrrr! i just love the smell of crispy danish bacon!

* Allah is the Most Merciful as well as the Most Just. So yeh the pig deserves to burn in the deepest pits of hell.... yeh....ameen to du'as [prayers] Islam is not 'lets all hold hands and sing in the Church', whilst letting the people do whatever they want!

Nice, huh? What do you say, Irf
Posted by dee, Monday, 19 June 2006 8:39:40 PM
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dee, Irfan's comment was in regard to this site. I think that he is being grossly unfair to the moderators with his comment but it is just as unfair to hold Irfan responsible for the kind of material you refer to. Whilst I have often disagreed with Irfan he has posted articles condeming Islamic extremism. I find his approach to engaging in discussion with posts very disapointing but nothing I have ever seen of Irfan's writing suggests any kind of support for the type of material you refer to.

Irfan is probably very well aware of the kind of hate filled bile coming from some sections of Islam just as most of us are aware that extremists from our own belief structures say things we detest.

I'd like to see Irfan answer some of the questions which have been put to him by posters on this thread, I suspect that throwing the extremist stuff at him distracts readers from his unwillingness to answer those questions.

Likewise I'd like to see him apologise to the OLO team for the slur implied in that last post of his.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 19 June 2006 9:00:52 PM
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Robert - I wasn't trying to blame Irf for the comments at UmmaNews, I was just trying to make a dent in his 'Muslims are always victims' spiel. Irf accused me of being 'full of hate' etc - I posted these comments so that he could see the thoughts of people who are really 'full of hate', comments celebrating the fact that someone was burned to death - an editor who was not their enemy, but merely published something they didnt like. What did they do when they discovered the news was false, I wonder? Perhaps Irf will read these comments, then compare them to mine. Then he can see who is 'full of hate', huh?

"Likewise I'd like to see him apologise to the OLO team for the slur implied in that last post of his".

Same. I would also like an apology for the things he wrote about me. I have never posted 'racist' sentiments about Muslims and everything I write regarding Islam is true. Irf obviously sees anyone stating the truth or refusing to make excuses for Muslims as 'full of hate' - this confusion of thought is in the same category as accusing people of victimising Muslims, yet refusing to admit that there is every reason for people to distrust them.

Why did Irf contribute the article if he didn't wish to hear from those who disagree?
Posted by dee, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 12:01:09 PM
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dee, sorry if I've misunderstood your intent. I might be suffering from overload of the chronic mossie bashers who insist on denigrating all muslims because of the actions of some (generally while insisting that evil committed in the name of christianity is nothing to do with "real" christains).

I think the continual attacks by the mossie bashers enhance the isolation of muslims and increase the likelyhood of conflict. Likewise Irfan's persistant calls of "armchair nazi" and failure to address some fairly basic questions decreases the likelyhood of real dialog.

I keep hoping that Irfan will get over his angst at the nasty behaviour of that group and engage in dialog with the rest of us. Having said that Irfan and other muslim posters put up with a lot of hate messages on this site (regardless of how much the posters claim to love muslims), none of us non muslims have had to put up with the mulim hate messages here. We would have to look elsewhere for that stuff.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 1:59:29 PM
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Hello from Terengganu, Malaysia!

I am not in a position to respond to the various posts made here as the cost of using internet in my hotel is quite prohibitive (even when converted into Malay Ringgits!). But I notice some people here have repeated the same point a number of times.

RObert, I haven't read the forums pertaining to articles on Christian doctrine. I will read them. If what you say is correct, I stand to be corrected.

RObert, if I wrote that all Catholics are pedophiles, I think you would be justified in refusing to answer me and dismissing my words as blind prejudice. Making generalisations about huge multi-ethnic and multi-cultural congregations such as Catholicism and Islam is just plain silly.

dee, in all the time I have contributed to this forum, I have not heard you say a single positive (or indeed, non-negative) thing about Islam or Muslim people. I therefore asked you questions about whether you have asked or spoken to Muslims.

dee, if you believe Muslims are so bad, perhaps you should write to the National Australia Bank and ask them to sack their CEO. Or maybe you should write to Senator Vanstone and have her sack one of her top departmental advisers.

If you are determined to merely cast aspersions and accusations, that is your prerogative. But if you do so, it is my prerogative to dismiss your words as prejudiced rant.

dee, can you find anything even slightly positive to say about Islam and Muslims? Or are all Muslims (including some staff at the Australian High Commission in KL) just a bunch of violent psychopathic murderers?
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 1:09:29 AM
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I just keep parroting a conservative line that this was supposed to be a war on terror, not a war on Islam, but so many here want this to be a holy war.

So I'll scroll back to the original question "the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi should be cheered by Muslims": well excuse me, this is an absurd statement.

I don't, as some of you know, identify as Christian in my religion, though I think I follow Jesus as unworthy as I am. Some of my spirituality is more Aboriginal. All our grandmothers in all cultures told us the cardinal rule over them all on this issue in superstition. The old "tapu" for our Kiwi readers, or bad Karma for the Hindu. You simply do not dance on someone's grave. A truely spiritual person simply doesn't do that. As much as the Towers and Bali Bombings upset me, I was overwhelmed by sadness when I saw the way they bombed his village.

I don't even think they should build on the site of the twin towers at all. The Balinese got it right. My belief is that the 10,000 people are still on ground zero in NY, especially after such an horrific, unjustified death. So you leave it alone as sacred or Tapu.

I mentioned my feeling on justice before on Bashir in Bali. I think his motive and malicious intent was worthy of restraint, even if the crime has missing evidence. He is still a dangerous man.

I would never cheer if he was punnished, only the opposite: sad that such a situation could possibly happen. I feel sad that crime is justified my a religion. That does not mean I hate Islam. If anyone wants to invite me to a mosque, I would be interested to see the rituals for myself, and just go along with it for the experience. Even part Aboriginal, I can't promise to be converted into an Australian Malcolm X. lol The dreamtime is too strong to penetrate.
Posted by saintfletcher, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 4:01:12 AM
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Or maybe this is the real story. This will make you all laugh. Take a look.

http://motherjones.com/commentary/fiore/2006/06/gaymarriage.html
Posted by saintfletcher, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 4:41:55 AM
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Irfan... Terengganu ? hmmmm u better learn "Saya mau makan" (I wanna eat) and "jangan kachau!" (stop annoying me :) Not to forget "Dimana jamban ?" (where is the loo)

I'd be interested in your observations of community life and especially the 'Islamic Law' side of things. I know Kelantan is quite strict and Terengganu is heading in that direction. Do they have Male and Female checkouts in K.T. ? I heard they did in Kelantan.

The most positive things to say about Muslims is that many of them are very gracious, kind, and friendly, like the Persian bloke I met at gym the other night. I attribute this to a number of factors.

1/ Basic personality
2/ A sense of appreciation that he is free and safe in Australia (His brother in law was executed for having the wrong flavor politics in Iran)

I don't know how much I can actually attribute to his religion.

The debate about Islam is not about 'Muslims'. Just as the debate about Christianity should not be about 'Christians'. In both cases it should be about fundamentals/doctrines etc.

Example: 2006 Zarqawi's successor claims.....

"We give the good news … to the Islamic nation that we have carried God's verdict by slaughtering the two captured crusaders. With God Almighty's blessing, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer carried out the verdict of the Islamic court.

So, we ask "where could they obtain this 'doctrinal' idea from" ?

Maybe Surah 47.4

When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens. 47:4

This explains:

1/ Kidnapping for Ransom.
2/ Beheading.
3/ The rare 'giving them their freedom'

All soundly based on a correct interpretation, not taken out of context.
This is so incredibly foreign to New Testament teaching as to be like another world.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 5:46:15 AM
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BD, "The debate about Islam is not about 'Muslims'. Just as the debate about Christianity should not be about 'Christians'. In both cases it should be about fundamentals/doctrines etc."

That is not how a lot of us see the issue but rather how the faiths are put into practice by followers. So called fundamentals/doctrines seem to be massively open to interpretation. People of all the major religions (and non religions) seem to be capable of being on either side of the "good/bad" divide and justify their behavior based on the doctrines of their faith.

In the case of the debates on these threads we see christains busy digging through Islamic texts (or lists that somebody else has compiled more likely) for verses which show the bloodthirsty nature of Islam and when confronted with examples from the bible and christain history quickly dismissing them. We have muslims who see their religion as a religion of peace who express their disgust at those who choose to use it for war.

I think that it is mostly about basic personality and the values the person has been raised with rather than the tenants of the faith involved.

Irfan, I don't think that the christains have been subjected to the same level of villification or unfairness in attacks that muslims have been subjected to on these threads - rather that the moderators do not seem to be using double standards in dealing with what does occur.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 7:59:00 AM
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David Boaz, I try and find something as barbaric as nailing an innocent, peaceful man to a cross and torturing him for several days but fail dismally.

Then I look at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Bagram airbase prison, and I know that those good people who call themselves christian are the same as those who murdered your Jesus.

If all muslim people were raving fundamentalist killers there would be no people left on earth.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 1:50:16 PM
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Irfan – I have never claimed that all Muslims are terrorists. Nor have I accused all Muslims of being ‘psychopathic murderers’. In reply to your query – of course I have met Muslims. Everyone in the Australian workforce has probably worked with Muslims, and no doubt liked some and disliked others. These are personal feelings.

Very few people believe that every single Muslim is a terrorist – but how do you distinguish the would be or the sympathizer from the others? Answer: you cannot. Whenever a Muslim is arrested for terrorism, family, friends and work colleagues express disbelief, shock etc. If those who are closest don’t suspect, then how are governments to determine those who are a danger to us? Especially since many were actually born in the countries whose citizens they wish to murder.

So please tell me, Irf – why should any Western country take the chance of importing people like Lodhi or the Canadian-born Muslims caught in Toronto? Some Muslims have integrated into Australian life – this does not change the basic premise that large scale immigration from Islamic countries is suicidal and definitely not in the interests of any Western country.

One only need look at Europe – Threats of beheading anyone who criticizes Islam, (remember Theo van Gogh? Remember the Mohammed cartoons?) burning and killing non-Muslims, raping women – who needs it? Why on earth would any country in its right mind wish to import more of this insanity? Research the Muslim crime rate in Europe, it is absolutely staggering. Same with the Muslim birthrate. And Australia will go down the same road if we accept large numbers of Muslims.

I regret that no positives come to my mind regarding Islam so perhaps you can provide some. Not examples of Muslims who have good jobs or who are good people but positives about Islam per se.

Rabid 'clerics' preach hate to Muslim communities in Australia and hate literature is on sale in Islamic bookshops, but you dont appear to understand why this would make Australians distrustful of Muslims. Why is that?
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:17:55 PM
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Questions for Marilyn:

"..who call themselves christian are the same as those who murdered your Jesus."

This does not make any sense whatsoever. Jesus was crucified at the order of the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate and the sentence was carried out by Roman soldiers. His arrest was orchestrated by the Jewish priesthood of the time, who were afraid that He would gain too much power among the common people. How does this compare in any way to US detention of captured terrorists? And what is your suggestion? Release them, so they can return to their terrorist groups and kill more Westerners? Or are they all innocent little lambs who would never dream of beheading anyone?

“If all muslim people were raving fundamentalist killers ...”.

Nobody here said that all Muslims are killers, obviously they are not – but we should be very concerned about those who are. However, I expect you will even find an excuse for the pigs who did this:

BAGHDAD, Iraq Jun 20, 2006 (AP)— 'The bodies of two U.S. soldiers reported captured last week have been recovered, and an Iraqi official said Tuesday the men were "killed in a barbaric way." The U.S. military said the remains were believed to be those of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore.'

'Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility for killing the soldiers, and said the successor to slain terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had "slaughtered" them, according to a Web statement that could not be authenticated. The language in the statement suggested the men had been beheaded.'

However, its nice to note the capture of Zarwawi's address book has led to over 500 more raids - so many that there are not enough U.S. troops to handle them, and over 30% have been carried out by Iraqi troops or police. Nearly 1000 terrorist suspects have been killed or captured. The amount of information captured has overwhelmed intelligence organizations in Iraq, and more translators and analysts are assisting, via satellite link, from the United States and other locations.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:51:20 PM
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"Nearly 1000 terrorist suspects have been killed or captured"

Hope Jesus live today and raising those dead bodies for a while to question them for what 9/11 reasons they should be suspected, or should be killed.
Posted by Jelata, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 3:48:22 PM
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Jelata,

Newsflash for you - Jesus IS alive today - maybe if you knew that you would have given your life to him instead of following a dead prophet. eh?

I am also glad that when it came to bringing people from the dead you resort to the real God Jesus and not your god or his messenger.

Tell us what is the difference between a true muslim who follows the Qur'an and a terrorist who follows the same Qur'an?

Why is it that one applies the terrorist teaching of the Qur'an and the other only recites the good ayats?

RObert,

It's time you grew up and understand what the real issues are with islam. You are way out of your depth when it comes to evaluating the threat of Islam to a non-muslim country. So stop pretending to play the moderator here when by your own admission you are a non-believer in God our creator. This is like expecting a plumber to oversee a brain surgery?

Islam loves people like yourself on whom they can just trample on all the way to Canberra. Maybe then you will realise who your true saviour is.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 8:22:41 PM
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Marilyn
something so barbaric?,

Step 1 See what Mohamed says about HIMSELF (i.e. the Quran)

[33:21] The messenger of GOD has set up a GOOD EXAMPLE for those among you who seek GOD and the Last Day, and constantly think about GOD.

Step 2 "Look" at that example mohamed set:

source http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/016.smt.html
Book 016, Number 4131:
Anas reported: Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

COMMENT
Zarqawi is just following Mohamed's example.

Reflect on this reality from his 'example' and you might gain an insight about why I am adamant that Islam came from a Murderer, Torturer,Cruel,Megalomaniacal, sexually predatorial and politically opportunistic evil man.

Don't look at "Christians", look at Christ. Show me how Jesus carried out such barbaric actions, how he surrounded Himself with sex slaves, how he forced his adopted son to divorce his wife so he could have her, married and had sex with a 9 yr old girl, arranged a 'hit' on Ka'ab Bin_Ashraf, who wrote poems about him, ...and when you can do all this, I will have to concede there is little difference between the 2 faiths.
Until then, I will expose Islam and proclaim Christ.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 22 June 2006 8:34:49 AM
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[19.30] He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;
[19.31] And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;
[19.32] And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;
[19.33] And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
[19.34] Such is Jesus, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.
(Quran, 19:30-34)

Mr Coach,
Indeed Islamic societies has been grown with familiarity to Judaism and Christianity. It was Christians who were the first helper to the first muslims. There are no 'religious enemity' in Islam.

Muslims rulers usually good to the Jews and the Christians, bani quraiza example was a tribal incident, not Muslim-Jews enemity.

It was 'the christians who did not follow the true christianity', who sometimes a bit harsh to the Jews. Only a tiny example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

We are also agreed in the resurrection of Jesus. It's great. In my opinion, a complex problem like Palistine dispute should be resolved by Jesus himself.

cheer,
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 22 June 2006 1:52:04 PM
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Jelata - "There are no 'religious enemity' in Islam."

The Arab News recently reported on a press conference in Saudi Arabia at the headquarters of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY, founded by the nephew of Osama bin Laden in the US, and under investigation since 1999 for links to terrorist groups including Hamas).

Some examples of WAMY philosophy:

“The Jews are the enemies of the faithful, God and the angels,” (according to A Handy Encyclopedia of Contemporary Religions and Sects published by WAMY) “The Jews are humanity’s enemies; they foment immorality in this world; The Jews are deceitful, they say something but mean the exact opposite.”

We prefer death and refuse to be belittled for the Cause of Allah;
O! how sweet a destiny!
We have decided and sworn an oath
To live or die as Muslims
Holding fast to the errors of the corrupt ones
Striving for Muslims to rule
Muslims! Muslims! Muslims!
We, with Islam were the best of nations
And with it conquered Kisraa [a Persian emperor] and Caesar
We have sown Justice in the world
So reap & spread amongst the people “Allahu Akbar”
Ask if you still don’t know who
Muslims! Muslims! Muslims!

...Raise the Qur’aan as the constitution of our time
And fill the horizons with: We are Muslims! Muslims! Muslims! Muslims!

Here’s a bit from a camp chant called “Youth of the True,” which laments the abandonment of shariah in contemporary times, and urges youth to “unsheath the swords/And don’t be concerned here with difficulties”:

Hail! Hail! O sacrificing soldiers!
To us! To us! So we may defend the flag
On this Day of Jihad, are you miserly with your blood?!
And has life become dearer to you? And staying behind sweeter?
Is staying in this world of torment more pleasing to us?

Now what were you saying about no 'religious enmity' in Islam?
Posted by dee, Thursday, 22 June 2006 4:34:04 PM
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" .. about basic personality and the values the person has been raised with rather than the tenants of the faith involved".

I see that the Islamic and Information Services Network of Australasia has raised $50,000 for the families of terrorist suspects on trial in Melbourne. The fundraiser was attended by more than 300 people. This is despite the fact that the families of the alleged terror cell members from both states are already receiving more than an estimated $1 million a year in taxpayer-funded Centrelink benefits and legal aid.

Among the alleged terror cell members is Abdul Nacer Benbrika who is accused of being the spiritual leader of the young radical Muslims. His wife and seven children will receive almost $50,000 in welfare benefits while he remains behind bars awaiting trial. The multimedia presentation was played between a series of speeches proclaiming the men's innocence.

These men were accepted into Australia as migrants who would be responsible citizens, instead of which they plot to kill Australians - and Australians taxpayers support their families. And it seems they have plenty of supporters.

Why risk importing more of this?
Posted by dee, Thursday, 22 June 2006 5:17:52 PM
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Hi dee, those arab fanatics didnt represent Islam. Never!

You know at many occassions the history, had muslims not protect their 'elder brother Jews', those unlucky people might have been vanished.

No, no, i would not continue. Such stories must be censored from a young, pure person like you.

Go for positive activities. You know Jesus was a great figure. Take his spirit and love as guidance. Good luck.
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 22 June 2006 6:57:52 PM
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Jelata,

It is very nice of you to quote some lovely verses from the very thoughtful prophet of Islam in his earliest days in Mecca.

The facts you need to know is that there is nothing in common between Islam and Christianity.

1. Allah cannot be the same as God
2. Isa is not Jesus the Son of God
3. Mohammad was never mentioned in the Bilble
4. Islam denies the Trinity of God
5. Jesus is the only saviour – Mohammad cannot save you
6. Your paradise is not God’s Heaven
7. All Muslims are promised hell and only some will be rescued depending on Allah’s mood on that day…
8. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets – you still follow the law and “some” prophets.
9. Jesus is coming back to judge the world (all non-Christians) – you say he is coming to destroy all crosses and pigs?
10. Islam is a religion of rituals with NO hope – Christianity is enjoying a relationship with God our father NOW not after we die – knowing that we are already been accepted through the blood of his son Jesus. Halleluiah and Amen.

>> We are also agreed in the resurrection of Jesus. It's great. In my opinion, a complex problem like Palistine dispute should be resolved by Jesus himself.<<

You may believe in Jesus’ resurrection but you deny his death on the cross. WHY?

Jesus is going to resolve Palestine / Israel conflict when He returns in His full glory and establish His kingdom on earth. When this happens every knee shall bow to Him or burn in hell for eternity.

You mentioned that Jesus had received a ‘book’ – (We know he didn’t) – If the Qur’an was really inspired by the same God – why doesn’t the Qur’an contain such a book??

Why does the Qur’an deny all truths and claims of Jesus as God the Saviour of humanity?

Why would God send another prophet after He came Himself to fulfil the law?

Why follow Islam if you are not SURE to be saved one day?
Posted by coach, Thursday, 22 June 2006 7:08:52 PM
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"Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them. Actually, also, under the very odd conditions of Arabia, your practical work will not be as good as, perhaps, you think it is." and "Precedence is a serious matter among the Arabs, and you must attain it." Thomas Edward Lawrence of Arabia, WWI: The 7 Pillars of Wisdom.

I think TE Lawrence's 7 Pillars of Wisdom could be more helpful than the Bible in a war against terror in the middle east.

That being said, I must protest against the revenge killings following the death of Zarquawi. Those two American soldiers were slain in revenge. In diplomacy, this just inflames the situation. Yet culturally it could make sense in that part of the world. TE Lawrence did warn us that "precedence is a serious matter amoung the Arabs", but somehow the cycle perpetuates in utter madness.

The whole revenge thing is a reaction against a reaction against a reaction against a reaction, and so on... This is just never going to end untill someone reads their books on diplomacy. It is time to get out of Iraq. TE Lawrence in his 7 pillars of wisdom: "better the Arabs do it tolerably than you do it perfectly". Now, lets talk about wisdom. Proverbs: Get thee wisdom? Now is the time.
Posted by saintfletcher, Friday, 23 June 2006 3:13:14 AM
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>>"better the Arabs do it tolerably than you do it perfectly".<<

Nice line fletchy,

In hind sight I have to congratulate Bush on His move in Iraq. At first I was outraged because I could not see the whole picture. I thought the US has lost their way completely (and dragged us with them).

But now it's becoming clearer that the long vision Bush's advisors had was to distabilise the Islamic world and let them do what they know best : kill each other.

So the WMD, Sadam, and oil were just the smokescreen.

Having said that I feel deeply for the families of the young men and women who lost their lives - one way or another - on the battle field. That's unfrotunately the high price of freedom.

At the end of the day it is a religious war of good against evil - as much as we don't like it to be.

To do nothing about the rise of global Islam would have been much much worse.
Posted by coach, Friday, 23 June 2006 7:49:31 AM
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Zarqawi, The One Legged Tarzan - Unidexter makes good - Part 1

This is a case of mass delusion and hysteria. Why do we all gyrate to this wierd dance?

Take three steps back from Zarqawi and for the sake of our kids, do some homework for once!

1. Take a look at the FBI's own website -
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

What do you NOT see? Any connection between OBL and 9-11. The FBI publicly admits that they DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF. Let that sink in.

2. Did you know that NO plane involved in 9-11 has been forensically identified? Read how it should have been done -
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesNelson26Apr2006.html

If they know, they won't tell, for the first time in the modern history of aviation crashes. Why? You tell me.

3. Maybe the answer lay closer to home on that day (wmv 213 kb) -
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/911.wtc.7.demolition.front.penthouse.wmv

4. Yet we went to Afghanistan in search of a culprit. But wait, hadn't we already been there before?
http://www.proxsa.org/resources/9-11/Brzezinski-980115-interview.htm

Bush said, "The Afghan people will know the generousity of America." But those ungrateful bastards already knew -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5339-2002Mar22

*

Stay tuned for the next thrilling episode in the life of the streamlined and aerodynamic Zarqawi - the man who had more makeovers than Joan Collin's face.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Friday, 23 June 2006 10:33:04 AM
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SaintFletcher - 'In diplomacy, this just inflames the situation. Yet culturally it could make sense in that part of the world'

According to MSM reports, the two young American soldiers captured were ‘just’ beaten and tortured. "Beaten and tortured" doesn’t begin to describe what really happened to them. In fact, they were tortured, beaten, their arms contorted, their testicles cut off, their penises cut off and stuffed in their mouths, their eyes gouged out, their hearts cut out and then they were beheaded.

This does not make sense in any part of the world, because it is the action of primitive barbarians on the lowest rung of human development. Yet we are expected to follow Geneva rules - ie, the rules created by and for civilised people - in dealing with them.

I am waiting with bated breath for the international Muslim community to condemn this act (without 'buts'). Where are the millions of Muslims we saw rioting when a few lame cartoons were published? Where are all the Islamic religious leaders - if Islam is truly the Religion of Peace, where are the outraged Muslims protesting at the atrocities carried out in their name?

Waiting .. waiting ...
Posted by dee, Friday, 23 June 2006 6:10:38 PM
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Indeed, Dee, I agree with you on this matter.

That is why I protested against the treatment of the 2 American soldiers in the first place. It was quite clearly outrageous what those criminals did to them. I say this in the name of humanity. Like you, I wait for a "please emplain". This time, the answer should be satisfactory. Even progressives, "the left" are losing our patience. We are Aussies too.

The soldiers didn't enlist as soldiers because they hate Islam, they enlisted to defend Australia or the US.

The comment TE Lawerence made about making sense of their culture just highlights the difficulty we have in communicating in a part of the world that is too complicated to control. We thought we could control Vietnam by force? We were wrong. It drove the soldiers to near madness trying to make sense of what was going on. Iraq is even more disasterous as a mistake. We simply cannot control the situation if we refuse to understand how they see the world in their culture.

All sides should follow the Geneva conventions.

If we cared for our soldiers, and if the US cared for their soldiers, we'd let them out of Iraq, let them come home. Let them protect the interests of Australia and the United States for our defence. Let the US National Guard help rebuild New Orleans properly. Even Texas is impatient and still has refugees from Lousianna in an unresolved situation. That is their job in their National Guard on their homeland, not building Iraq to western values.

The Iraq thing is turning into a mess: less and less relevant to Australian and US interests.
Posted by saintfletcher, Friday, 23 June 2006 7:48:52 PM
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Mr Coach all monotheism are by nature exclusive so it was not surprising you listed your version of the differences. Let me quote the quran: "To you your religion and for me my religion".

I think humans are not the victim of their religions, humans are more important than religions, or at least I think human are more important then Islam (it exists for humanity). I still hope we will finally find a way to live side by side.

saintfletcher, I think those goverments had calculated well what would happen in Iraq at the time they invaded the country.

It is also very sad, indeed, if such hypothesis posted by Chris Saw were correct, while likely be correct because of abundant evidences.

But I'm then such like you, hoping that we lived in civilizations with better morality than human had in medieval ages, whatever their religions are.

It is true many of us are a good willing, neutral person like you, and unfortunately the leaders are, (as usually, regardless in the West or the East) bad.

Keep your hope my friend I'll keep mine.
Posted by Jelata, Monday, 26 June 2006 10:34:55 PM
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Mr Jelata,

Thank you for coming back to us, I thought we have lost you. It is a pleasure to have you on this forum.

You said:

>>Mr Coach all monotheism are by nature exclusive so it was not surprising you listed your version of the differences. Let me quote the quran: "To you your religion and for me my religion".<<

This contradicts what the Qur'an is; the last revelation from God to confirm all previous revelations and holy books...right?

So my question is why is it so contradictory to the New Testament message (Injil)?

Why does it mention some prophets and not others?

You are told to respect and learn from the "people of the book" - Jews and Christians - yet you doubt our books saying we have "changed" them. What would be the purpose of that change hundreds of years before Islam was invented?

If islam was for all humanity, why does it deny the real nature of God and Jesus' real identity as previously revealed?

I think the Qur'an is a fabrication from Mohammed and his followers to convince the Arab masses to fight for supremacy on earth. Too many contradictions and errors are found in it which proves it cannot be from a higher authority (Allah) like it is claimed.

Until you can reason with us, and answer our criticism, Islam will remain a dangerous sect that believes in a false god.

Prove me wrong and I'll join you today.
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 9:46:40 AM
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Social scientists and historians are already having a ball over the nightmare that is now Iraq. They already teach about what Infan has mentioned, and we might have expected his credentials might have allowed him to give more credit to university lecturers - Phds and Professors, rather than leaving them as looney leftists and bleeding hearts that many of our Onliners name them as such.

The real enemy of the US even before WW2 has always been Iran, and it was when Mossadegh was accused of starting a Communist state in Iran, when America rigged up the yarn about Rejav who later became the puppet Shah.

The Guardian newspaper recently gave a write-up about Shirin Ebadi who wants democracy in Iran, but not the American style of freedom, saying how humiliating it was for Iranians to watch US troops move into her country in the early 1950s as if it was some primitive uneducated backwater. She says she has got that way over the years, she would rather have had Iran blessed with good potable water rather than the oil which has so much had the US and UK barging in and telling a litany of lies about liberty and justice.

Budding university historians are right onto stories like the one about Ibid, knowing they really bring out the truth about Western interests in the Middle East ever since Lawrence was double-crossed by his own countrymen after WW1. Why we cannot have such truths in our newspapers, is proof that though we can be sparked up as during WW2, this war in the Middle East, even despite the Nazi extermination of the Jews, is a much dirtier war because it has revived something that really should have ended with WW2 and the wonderful success of the Marshall Plan - and even the defeat of Stalinism should have been the end of problems in the Middle East because America as unipolar should have supported the UN decently rather treating it as a global rival, the recent appointment of Bolton to the UN, being a glaring example.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 12:49:37 PM
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BB - Part Two

But America and Britain backed by Exxon and BP had to cook up something about freedom in the Middle-East for all Muslims, when it was only freedom for the big corpo’-oil grab, already now well on the way in Iraq with puppet leaders installed, and the US having built a fortified Embassy in the Green Zone any castle-crazy Crusader would have been proud of.

Possibly the Arabs should blame their own bin Laden for having organised 9/11 when it stirred up the Americans, Brits and us Aussies to be now given the chance to at last put the Middle East Moslems really under our thumb, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condy Rice really clapping their hands. Or they had been, anyway.

Right now America’s number one enemy, Iranian leader Armadinejad has revved up his counter-offensive against the West with his successful get-together with Russia and China. Already called the SCO, the Shanghai Cooperative Organisation, in which Iran desires full membership, might help create a beneficial realpolitik balance of power in a world so sorely needed to counter this increasingly idiotic Anglopholic neo-imperialist mania. A ridiculous effort, besides the oil, to prove that Pax Americana is truly unipolar master or mistress of our globe - when if she had gone quiet the rest of the world might have revered her so much more as global leader.

Yes, our historians certainly already have plenty in their files, with a fed-up global public no doubt wishing they could write some sort of finish to it.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 12:56:31 PM
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Mr Coach, i think you know many aspects of Islam. About your criticism, well, I'm not a scholar of Islam and I doubt my answers will satisfy you (you are a priest?), but let my try to answer 'as far I know'.

You said,
"the last revelation from God to confirm all previous revelations and holy books...right?"

We believe there are hundred thousands 'Prophets' for nowhere in earth there are folks without God sent His messengers to them.

We believe all Prophets (Jews, including Jesus and non Jew) tought the same principle: accept God in strict monotheism and surender to His will, as well as to His 'law' (not necessarily sharia).

This is perhaps way Islam can live side by side tolerably with many belief systems such as Zoroatrianis, Hinduism etc. Not perfecly though, of course, because religious sentiment is a natural tendency. But you must admit we did not grow such sentiment far away like in the West. We never imagine inquisiton and holocaustry.

About our belief system, we are less exclusive toward Judaism but unfortunately, since Christianity regard Jesus as representation of God, we can not accept this belief as a religious truth. Quran: "God is not Trinity". This doesnt mean we must slay you, no. This exclusivism is purely a belief matter. "There is no compulsion in religion".

Mr Coach do not feel to be offended if we say either Torah and Bible had been corrupted.

Scriptures are fragile to corruption even there exist many sects of Judaism, Christianity, preserve their own version of scriptures with contradict each other.

Even we lost some verses of the Quran whatever Muslim had tried to preserve it, and Islamic sects raised because we do maintains different set of hadits and refer to different scholars.

I hope this my opinions could contribute you a bit more understanding. Good day.
Posted by Jelata, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 1:30:17 PM
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Hello Jelata, and peace.
It seems to me that you see both sides of the coin. I commend you for that.

Can you tell, do you believe that the killings by Islamist for Islam is a good thing? Or correct under Islam?

I do not ask to make you feel uncomfortable. I feel that the killing by the coalition is wrong and the invasion of Iraq wrong. I am simply trying to get a feel for how an everyday Muslim sees the killing from their religion.

Like you, I agree that there seems to have been a corruption in the texts used by both the Christian and Islamic religions. Both have a variety of sub-groups in their midst that claim the ‘truth’ of the matter.

As a human, I do not celebrate the killing of al-Zarqawi. Any killing is not to be celebrated. That it was a necessity is also arguable but in any event a celebration of a killing is anathema to any truely peaceful religion or human belief.

One further question. Do you see Islam and Christianity existing in peace together in the future? Can Islam and Christianity exist without conflict over who is ‘right’ and who is the more ‘righteous’ follower?

I know the answers from the Christian posters. I am curious about how you, again as an everyday Muslim, feel about this possibility…

Best wishes,
Posted by Reason, Tuesday, 27 June 2006 5:33:01 PM
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Good morning, Jelata –

'we are less exclusive toward Judaism but … unfortunately we can not accept this belief as a religious truth.'

Whether or not the religions of the world accept each others beliefs, it is still possible to live in peace. I don’t need to believe in a person’s religion to respect his/her right to follow that religion. The trouble starts when one religion refuses to abide by this scenario – right now, that religion is Islam. I appreciate that Islam takes a somewhat different form in East Asia than in the Middle East – but beware, fundamentalist Islam is making inroads into countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, and now Thailand.

According to The Malaysia Star:

'Each Muslim preacher who marries an orang asli (indigenous) woman and naturally converts her as part of renewed efforts to propagate Islam among the 3,000-odd community in the state will be offered RM10,000. State Religious Affairs committee chairman Hassan Mahamood (PAS – Tawang) said the same incentive was applicable if the preacher was a Muslim woman who took an orang asli husband.'

Saudi Arabia continues to foster religious hatred in its schools, despite many assurances that it would rewrite textbooks that refer to Jews as 'apes' and Christians as 'swine'.

The [Freedom House] report cites extracts from textbooks for children aged between five and 16. It quotes the following exercise for the youngest children:

'Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Islam, hellfire): Every religion other than - is false. Whoever dies outside of Islam enters -.'

Older students learn:

'It is part of God's wisdom that the struggle between the Muslim and the Jews should continue until the hour (of judgment).'

As Loyola said:

'Give me a child til he is seven and he is forever after mine.'
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 12:22:24 PM
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dee said ...

"According to The Malaysia Star:

'Each Muslim preacher who marries an orang asli (indigenous) woman and naturally converts her as part of renewed efforts to propagate Islam among the 3,000-odd community in the state will be offered RM10,000. State Religious Affairs committee chairman Hassan Mahamood (PAS – Tawang) said the same incentive was applicable if the preacher was a Muslim woman who took an orang asli husband.'"

dee, when was the last time you were in Malaysia? Can you provide us with the context of the report? Or alternately, the URL?

dee, are you aware that PAS is only in charge of 1 state govt in Malaysia? Are you also aware that PAS lost most of its seats in the last election?

But I guess these facts mean nothing to those insistent on demonising their fellow Australians. Yesterday Catholics were demonised. Today it is Muslims. Perhaps tomorrow dee, coach and the monoculturalist brigade will demonise Jews.

dee, you are trying to prove that 1.2 billion Muslims are a bunch of blood-sucking vampires out to take over the world. Yet all you have provided is isolated anecdotes, always out of any sensible context.

I have seen your posts on other blogs and forums. I've concluded that you simply hate Islam and you hate Muslims. Why not just come out and say it? Otherwise, I challenge you to find a single nice thing to say about Islam and/or Muslims.

This forum was intended to discuss Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a man who hated Muslims. Your constant rants against Muslims show that you have much in common with Zarqawi and other al-Qaida operatives.
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 1:02:49 PM
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Good morning everybody,

Reason, thanks a lot for your positive response.

You asked, "do you believe that the killings by Islamist for Islam is a good thing?".

Do not kill, do not steal, blah blah these are bricks we inherit from Abrahamic tradition. In war, Islam does not allow killing civilians, monasteries and any attacks that only wound the enemies but did not killing him and blah blah.

But bfore we get lost into detail I think what happens today (especially in the Middle East) way more complex than such approach of 'hey, they kill us in the name of Allah, our assertions were correct, look into Malaysia etc etc'. It was oversimplified or perhaps irrelevant.

In the case of Iraqis, well, you witnessed bombs poured to their inhabited cities, destroying houses and lifes, left their dear relatives turned into dust: war ruins lifes, destroying morality. Such attack was not conducted in the name of God but in the name of 9/11, Bali bomb, Madrid bomb, nuclear bombs etc, yet it could not alter the essence of war and atrocities.

Then naturally they were responding whatsoever, its natural and predictable. Islam did not make them so, it was only something they pick to defend their last existence.

Even if one attack a Budhist community they must prepared for some statues thrown to their faces when they marching into their cities.

Of course , I dont want make you displeased, nor I have lost my balance. I just invite you to let Hegelian logics (dialectics) work a moment to calibrate our insight to be more precise.

Viewing a social phenomenon with only religious motives as explanation never fit to reality. Even Socrates would agree this.

You further asked, "Do you see Islam and Christianity existing in peace together in the future?
Can Islam and Christianity exist without conflict over who is ‘right’ and who is the more ‘righteous’ follower?

Absolutely.
Religious tolerance already exist, for centuries. We could be even better.
Posted by Jelata, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 1:10:34 PM
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Irf - The fact that PAS lost is not my point. Extremist Islam is creeping in all through Asia – see the recent murders in Thailand. This is just another example of a worldwide phenomenom ie, Islam trying to get the numbers to rule. Islamic leaders themselves say that this is their aim, why do you expect me to disbelieve them?

<.. insistent on demonising their fellow Australians>

We have had this discussion before. I am not demonizing my fellow Australians, I am rightly angry with militant brands of Islam being imported into Australia; with hate literature on sale in the Muslim community; with Muslim so-called ‘leaders’ and spokesmen’ continually making excuses for terrorism and labeling anyone who questions this as ‘a Muslim hater’. These people are not my 'fellow Australians'. I will continue to protest against the importation of religious hatred into Australia no matter what I am called.

<isolated anecdotes>?

I think not. Every day there is a negative report concerning the behaviour of Muslims. Today, a family in Denmark was convicted of murder for an ‘honour killing’. This kind of behaviour is neither isolated nor an anecdote. Don’t demonise me for noting the behaviour of too many of your fellow Muslims.

< I challenge you to find a single nice thing to say about Islam and/or Muslims.>

I have already challenged you to tell us the positives of Islam. So - You first.

<you have much in common with Zarqawi and other al-Qaida operatives.>

I have absolutely nothing in common with murderous head-chopping religious fanatics. Have you ever heard the saying:

‘The best defence is offence’?

Your stupid and insulting remark is a perfect example. You don’t wish to acknowledge the sociopathic actions of too many Muslims, so you demonise those who refuse to accept those actions or to make excuses for them.
Posted by dee, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 2:53:57 PM
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Irfan reminds us that:

“to discuss Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, A MAN WHO HATED MUSLIMS”.

Zarqawi was a hero worshiped by millions of muslims. That is an irrational statement Irfan – once again you are blinded by your own prejudice.

Zarqawi like any good Islamic herd-leader was doing the right thing by Islam. He did not set up to killing other sunni muslims only the inferior sort, the non-jihadist cowards and the illegitimate Shia.

In the words of Zarqawi himself, he stated that his enemies were :

1. The Americans

These, as you know, are the most cowardly of God's creatures. They are an easy quarry, praise be to God. We ask God to enable us to kill and capture them to sow panic among those behind them and to trade them for our detained sheikhs and brothers.

2. The Kurds

These are a lump [in the throat] and a thorn whose time to be clipped has yet to come. They are last on the list, even though we are making efforts to harm some of their symbolic figures, God willing.

3. Soldiers, Police, and Agents

These are the eyes, ears, and hands of the occupier, through which he sees, hears, and delivers violent blows. God willing, we are determined to target them strongly in the coming period before the situation is consolidated and they control arrest[s].

4. The Shi`a

These in our opinion are the key to change. I mean that targeting and hitting them in [their] religious, political, and military depth will provoke them to show the Sunnis their rabies, and bare the teeth of the hidden rancour working in their breasts. If we succeed in dragging them into the arena of sectarian war, it will become possible to awaken the inattentive Sunnis as they feel imminent danger and annihilating death at the hands of these Sabeans.

Despite their weakness and fragmentation, the Sunnis are the sharpest blades, the most determined, and the most loyal …
Were it not for the enfeebled Sufi shaykhs and [Muslim] Brothers, people would have told a different tale.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 3:01:30 PM
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dee, the onus is on you to prove that every single one of the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world is involved in your imaginary international conspiracy to import hatred into Australia.

That means you must prove I am part of that conspiracy. You must also prove that Richard Kerbaj (a reporter from The Australian) is also part of that conspiracy. You must also prove that current and former journalists and writers from the Herald, the Age, the Daily Telegraph and other newspapers are part of that conpiracy.

You must also prove that "Crazy" John Ilhan and Ahmed Fahour (CEO of the NAB) are part of that conspiracy. Not to mention Abul Rizvi who enforces our immigration program for DIMA and Senator Vanstone.

Once you can prove that we are all in this together, you might be taken seriously. You have suggested all Muslims are in this evil conspiracy. Now is your chance to prove it.

So let's start with me, shall we? Please provide irrefutable evidence that I am importing hatred into Australia.
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 3:13:20 PM
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Hi Jelata.
I completely agree that the bombing and invasion of Iraq was wrong. That the US and its allies believed their ‘pin-point’ attacks would be victim free is ludicrous. That any person can justify the death of innocents as an acceptable by-product of the unprovoked attack on Iraq is inhuman and dishonest. Hussein had no delivery system capable of threatening anywhere outside the Middle East so the US and allies cannot justify the attack.

I also agree that viewing social interaction through a religious veil is unrealistic and dishonest. Religion can never be substantiated beyond faith. Would you agree that faith is best kept to ones self while ones life and character is the best advertisement for a faith system?

I’m also glad you agree that the religions of the world can live in peace together.

In my mind, it is a sure sign of insecurity that one must declare their faith superior to another’s. If a person cannot believe in peace they must be looking for validation – through the conversion or denigration of another – it helps them feel right about what they are doing. It also exposes them for the insecurity and doubt that they contain.

Another question – How is society (in the global sense) going to stop the inciting of intolerance and disrespect that both Christian and Muslim clerics are propagating?

For my part I would suggest that religious instruction be restricted to preaching the benefits and tenants of one’s own religion while it would be unlawful to compare any one religion to another. This would ensure that only positive things are said (I hope) and that no denigration of another faith is easily perpetrated.

However I see a problem with this in that it is a form of censorship and denial of free speech. And of course how does one regulate such thing? A dream to be sure…

Irfan.
I am glad you still tramp these roads. With all the ludicrous statements made over and over I would have thought you’d have become worn down. Keep writing for peace and tolerance.
Posted by Reason, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 4:37:15 PM
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Mr Jelata,

There is no compulsion in religion. (Q2:256)

To you your religion and for me my religion. (Q. 109:6)

If this is true why do people who convert to Christianity (or become atheist) from Islam are persecuted and prosecuted for the crime of changing religion?

Apostasy is a very serious crime in most Islamic countries. A lot of refugees coming to our shores are escaping such persecution and death threats. A lot convert to Christianity secretly, some even change identity so their relatives and friends won’t find them (and kill them).

Furthermore the ayah (verses) you naively quoted have been abrogated, annulled, made redundant, cancelled by Allah, who according to the Qur’an CAN and DOES change his mind.

I hope you see my problem. If Allah is admitting that he made mistakes. It shows that what he gave before was not perfect. It could be improved or changed.

Q9:5 replaces the above verses“…then kill the mushrikin (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they [pay a tax and live in submission to you] then leave their way free. Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

The bible says:
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Numbers 23:19

On islamic tolerance of non-muslems; (Q. 2:193)... Fight them until there is no more fitnah (belief in other gods) and all worship is for Allah (alone).

So my humble conclusion is that Allah of the Qur’an CANNOT be the same as the God of the bible. For why would Allah ask Muslems to kill believers in God Himself?

_____________

(Q 4:82) Do they not consider the Qur’an ? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found therein discrepancies

Unfortunately there are too many discrepancies and contradictions to make it a divine or holy book. Therefore the Qur’an cannot be a confirmation of but a conflict to the central message of the bible.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 8:21:45 PM
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dee, I think muslims have many more reasons to be afraid of western culture than yours to be so phobic about muslims.

Not to offend, it was 'Christendom' who were in general attacking and massacrying people. Crusaders, Inquisition, American Indians, the aborigines (deep sorry), holocaust, antisemitism, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Slobodan Milosevic, what salvations were these all and now your aggresive leaders and thousands missiles ready to burn this earth several times .

Our 'unchristianiy', in those matters, is almost nothing compared to yours. Thank to barbaric concept of dhimmitude. Thank to ancient multiculturalism of Eastern ppl.

What is your equally figure of Umar Ibn Khattab? Let alone Saladin.

2000 A.D and agressive nature of the people remains the same,
Such was in Quran "They will not cease until you follow their way of life". Yet seems the Quran true because their 'enemies' consistently fulfilling the prophecy.

So please stop your violent opinion and embrace multiculturalism, let's make nobody could in literal way understand such scriptures. Allah is in mood in "erasing" such verse. He is all - mercyful.

You could keep the same prophecy though, and you fulfill it your self. Indeed most muslims are pacifist yet ready with any possible meaning of Jihad.

Reason, I'm like you who believe imposing concept of peace into religions is more likely to be successful than erasing the religions. I think human is inclinedly going to such tendency. Yes fanatics exist as neo-old but there are peace-oriented people that are completely new phenomenon. I dont know exactly the way but I'm optimistic.

Mr Coach, I'd told you I'm not a scholar. I'm also a bit acquianted by Taoism/Budism so I love to seeing and experiencing rather than details of Quran. I do not necessarily follow fatwas, I'd rather listening it myself.

There are two words writen in the grave of Admiral of Seven Seas Zenghe, who had sailed peacefully with giant armada ever along Asian shores to the Holy Land of Mecca.

The words are : Allahu Akbar. God is Great.
Doesnt (or at least didn't) Islam is fairly great ha ha.
Posted by Jelata, Wednesday, 28 June 2006 9:37:28 PM
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Irf – please reread my June 21st posts:

<I have never claimed that all Muslims are terrorists>

Please point to a post of mine anywhere stating that ‘all Muslims are terrorists’? You cannot. Please point to a post accusing all Muslims, journalists etc. of being in a giant conspiracy. You cannot. There is no onus on me to 'prove' something that does not exist.

There *is* a conspiracy by some Islamic ‘leaders’ to conquer the world for Islam by immigration and outbreeding. Read their own words. Not all Muslims agree with it, just as not all Germans believed in Nazism. Their disapproval did nothing to stop Hitler. In the same way, moderate Muslims have no chance of stopping extremists. If moderates had any voice, hate literature would not be on sale in Islamic bookshops, would it? Personal feelings for individual Muslims have absolutely no bearing on the issue.

I wrote:

< .. no positives come to my mind regarding Islam so perhaps you can provide some. Not examples of Muslims who have good jobs or who are good people but positives about Islam per se.>
>

You have not responded to this request. So please - tell us the positives of Islam.

In a nutshell:

I do not hate Muslims.

I do not hate people because they are Muslims.

I do not support continued Islamic immigration because it is a burden rather than an asset. Hostility to the host country and support of terrorism among Muslims in the West (especially Britain) are more than alarming (see the Pew Research Center report, among others).

The acceptance of Muslim immigrants/refugees brings too much risk of importing terrorist supporters – see Canada, France, the UK, the US, Holland, Denmark and right here in Australia.

Muslims bring too many unacceptable customs – virulent anti-Semitism, honour killings, female circumcision, forced marriages, cousin marriage, sharia law. Can you give one reason why Australia should accept such a burden?

Many Muslims are good people but this will never outweigh the fact that Islamic immigration has proven to be a disaster for the West.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 29 June 2006 1:59:11 PM
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dee writes ...

"In a nutshell:

I do not hate Muslims.

I do not hate people because they are Muslims."

Really? Your posts on this forum express hatred and venom of Muslims. You don't qualify your prejudice by talking of "extreme" Muslims or "radical" Muslims or even "some" Muslims. You refer to ALL Muslims.

You are attributing to Muslims almost exactly what Hitler and his goons attributed to Jews. And the best evidence you can provide is anecdotes and quotes without any context.

Your hatred of all Muslims enables you to rant and rave without even sticking to the topic. Virtually every forum having anything remotely to do with Muslims and Islam contains your venom which is inevitably directed at all Muslims.

The fact that you cannot even find a single good thing to say about the faith of almost one quarter of the world's population makes you a very sad and negative individual indeed.

Go to google. Type in the name "Rumi". Then discover a side of Islamic faith and culture you may not have heard of before.
Posted by Irfan, Thursday, 29 June 2006 3:50:52 PM
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Irf – yet another accusation of hating *all* Muslims when I have stipulated time after time that this is not the case. If you wish to believe that I snarl at Muslims every day and dream about nuking Mecca, go right ahead.

<You refer to ALL Muslims>

I ask you once again to supply evidence that I refer to ‘all Muslims’.

< the best evidence you can provide is anecdotes and quotes without any context.>

Evidence of what? If you refer to the report from the Star, here is the link: http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/6/27/nation/14660015&sec=nation

If you wish to see ‘evidence’ of the anti-social behaviour of many Muslims in western countries, pick up a newspaper. The trials of alleged home-grown terrorists in almost every western country are not anecdotes or quotes. Neither are the 22 driveby shootings carried out this year by Lebenese Muslims in Sydney. Have you ever asked yourself why Muslims are the only group of immigrants ever to behave in this fashion in Australia?

The quotes I supply are usually from the Koran or from prominent Muslims. They are easily verified.

Far from ‘ranting and raving’, I have explained clearly and rationally why I do not support any further acceptance of Muslim refugees and migrants.

< .. you cannot even find a single good thing to say [about Islam] makes you a very sad and negative individual indeed>

Have you considered that my being unable to find anything positive about Islam says a lot about Islam? I believe this is the third time I have asked you to list the positives you refer to, but you prefer to respond with personal insults and accusations of ‘hating all Muslims’. The 'victimisation of Muslims' line is growing old. So:

What are the positives of Islam?

How does Muslim immigration benefit Australia?

Why is anti-Australian, anti-Western hate literature on sale in Islamic bookshops?

Why should Australians feel any trust for people who tolerate the sale of hate literature in their community?

Re Rumi: How many Muslims in Australia follow Sufism? I cannot see its influence on the behaviour of Muslims worldwide.
Posted by dee, Thursday, 29 June 2006 5:47:19 PM
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dee, your rants makes generalised allegations against Muslims in Australia and across the world. I think you seriously need to get out more often and get to know more Muslims.

I tell you what. If you live in Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne, I am happy to meet you and take you on a tour of mosques and other institutions. I'll introduce you to ordinary Aussie Muslims. You can raise these issues with them yourself.

Are you prepared to do this, dee? This is my invitation to you. Go to my blog, grab my e-mail and get back to me. This invitation is also open to coach, Boaz-David and any other person with similar issues with Muslims.
Posted by Irfan, Thursday, 29 June 2006 6:07:32 PM
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Irfan

I sincerely hope that at least one of the islam-ists have the courage to take you up on your generous offer.

I await the outcome.
Posted by Scout, Friday, 30 June 2006 8:22:29 AM
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Mr Jelata,

Thank you for your honesty in replying to our questioning.

It is a bit rich to put all ‘barbaric’ history under the one banner of “Christendom”and non und "Islamism".

1. My questions to you were about the content of the Qur’an – but you don’t want to go there because you say you are not a scholar of Islam.

>>I love to seeing and experiencing rather than details of Quran.<<

But you are a Moslem aren’t you? That means you recite parts of the Qur’an daily – don’t you?

Unless you are a non-practicing Moslem you should at least understand what you are telling Allah and what you are reading, don’t you think?

No need to be a scholar for that – there is no real magic in the (Arabic) words.

But I think your attitude of total “surrender” is causing you not to think for yourself but just follow (like cheep). That is the attitude of the millions of Muslims around the globe. They are angry at the West because their leaders tell them they have to be.

You summed it all very well and I quote you:

“Indeed most muslims are pacifist yet ready with any possible meaning of Jihad.”

So do you understand why we cannot embrace multiculturalism with such people?

2. You also say: >>I'm like you who believe imposing concept of peace into religions is more likely to be successful than erasing the religions… I dont know exactly the way but I'm optimistic.<<

It’s not up to you or your optimism – you should know by now that the Qur’an is unchangeable – unfortunately it is too late for:

>>Allah is in mood in "erasing" such verse. He is all - mercyful..<<

What is written is written – it is now up to the "good” Moslems to follow the commands of Allah “verbatim” or burn in hell.

So if you are really a pacifist, it’s time you put on your logic glasses and your thinking hat and use your common sense. (Instead of following an intrinsically brutal religion)
Posted by coach, Friday, 30 June 2006 10:05:53 AM
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Mr Coach ofcourse I'm reading Quran everyday in my prayers. I'm also think about it but spirituality is somewhat beyond our thought you as a devout Christian must understand this.

I'm understanding Quran in a style of science called "Hikma", a bit sufistic tradition, those, verses are only way to a kind of religious insight, not a scientific stuff. And the whole existence is actually His verses - Quran are a part of the whole. I'm also using phenomenologic and dialectic style of thought in these matters.

Verses history are well recorded and I must understand the 'deeper messages', not literal messages.

We differ in understanding God. Because your god is Roman and platonic and 'our God' are eastern and He often confuse you. Our prophet was a figure bound to his own time, rules and moralities, and our understanding to verses are flexible and based on Islamic concept of ijtihad.

Such as, there are no verses or sunna about nuclear weapon but many muslims (I have not survey all) agree we must not develop such weapon because it oppose the constructive message of Islam.

I think we agree that war sometimes is inevitable but it is necessary to control our attitude during wall and not 'seeking' for it. Nor we must attack our peaceful Christian neighbours and countries. And we must put war at last, very last options. Even Taoism will agree this.
Remember, you see in History, we practiced it.

So western campaign against Midle East is only another unchristianity they repeat and repeat again. I am and many muslims will go jihad when this attack have reach to certain degree we could not bear. What's the problem? We are responsible to defend Jesus messages too.

But I dont see now is to late for peace initiative. Our jihad is including fighting our impatience.
Posted by Jelata, Friday, 30 June 2006 3:15:32 PM
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Irf – I don’t need to get out more. I live in Sydney’s east, I know plenty of Muslims. Did you think I had never met one? Amazingly, I even have a friend who is Muslim – I must hide my ‘hate for all Muslims’ very well, since she has never noticed that I ‘hate’ her. I have also worked with Muslims and as you know very well (because I have said so many times), I have no complaint against any Muslim who lives peacefully in Australia, obeys the law and refrains from trying to force Islamic customs onto the rest of us. The Muslims who don’t do these things are the ones who bother me - like the Lebenese gang who knifed and almost killed my son because he refused to hand over his money and phone.

‘Generalised allegations’? Such as? All my ‘allegations’ have involved things happening right now – trials of Muslims arrested for terrorism, the riots in France, and the high level of Muslim violence in Australia. Hardly 'generalised allegations'.

Thank you for the kind invitation but so far you have not responded to one question I asked. Does this mean that you yourself can find no positives in Islam? Or that you do not know why such large numbers of Muslims refuse to integrate into Western society?

The accusation of hating *all* Muslims/blacks/Asians/whoever is an old ploy designed to silence critics and to avoid answering awkward questions. You keep accusing me, all I can do is to keep saying, ‘No, I do not hate all Muslims’. It is absolutely absurd to accuse critics of Islam of hating *all* Muslims – I’m simply not stupid enough to hate millions of people I have never met - for any reason.

My questions concerning Islam are quite reasonable - strange that no Muslim wants to answer them.
Posted by dee, Friday, 30 June 2006 3:53:56 PM
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G'day Irf

I won't take up your offer of touring mosques. As I've said, I've worked with mossies in 4 different countries. I've seen enough. Also, after 'insulting' mossies by telling them to please abide by the law and receiving the usual death threats I don't want to show my face around any mosque unless I'm afforded the same level of protection that Geert Wilders and Ayaan HirsiI Ali 'enjoy'.

Tell you what, if I go to a mosque will you visit the national parks and centrelink and tell your co-religionists to abide by the law, by a ticket and stop the welfare rorts. All other apologists are welcome to do same, in fact it'd be a full time job, as it was for me.

From reading your blog Irf I know that you regard some mossies better than others, Turks over Lebs for example, you rascal! Well here's a group of jolly fellows who are worse!

Here's an article from 2000, read it and tell me are they really worth it.

http://www.mnmed.org/Protected/00MNMED/0012/Ohmans.html

It's from Minnesota, one of the more recent places stupid enough to let thousands of mossies within their borders. It places a more or less positive spin on them even though they describe some pretty horrifying things like 'genital cutting. Yes I know, it's not an exclusively islamic practice, it's not as common here but I've talked to midwives and nurses here and they tell me that mutilated women are exclusively mossie.

The article even gives handy hints on how to de-infibulate somali women when her baby's head is crowning, that scar tissue can be pretty stubborn you know.

But at least we have an 'education centre'

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/30/1067233290466.html?from=storyrhs

They also talk about TB, many taxi drivers in Minneapolis are Somali, tell me, would you catch a cab over there if the driver was coughing away? Would you want your child sharing a class with them? The spores can last a long time.

I could give you many more articles from the same place but this is enough.

I know I'm an armchair nazi and it's off topic.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Friday, 30 June 2006 4:45:57 PM
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G'day,

My invitation is open to you. I have answered your queries. You have refused to accept them. You ask me to find one nice thing to say about Islam. Just about every article I have written on this website illustrates the goodness in Islam. The fact that I can find goodness in other faiths is a reflection of the theology I was taught.

dee, so what if you have one Muslim friend. What does it prove? In a city of over 150,000 Muslims, you could only find one Muslim friend?

I repeat my invitation to you. I promise I won't bite. If you are scared I will terrorise you, I can even arrange a police escort for you. If you are keen to move beyond carping from the sidelines, I am happy to show you around some mosques and schools.

On the other hand, if you wish to remain sinking in the quicksands of hatred, you can refuse my offer and remain in your sheltered suburb.
Posted by Irfan, Friday, 30 June 2006 5:30:18 PM
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Irfan,

Thank you for the invite. But I live in Sydney's South-West and can't go out for more than 2 minutes before I meet Moslems.

Contrary to most other posters I am fluent in Arabic, have visited mosques and schools, been to “Moslem-only” meetings, have many Moslem friends both here and o/s, frequently go to M/eastern restaurant sand grossers...

I have no problems loving Moslems (among many other faiths) and inviting them to my place/ dining and sharing cultural experiences etc...

What I object to is the rigidity of the Qur'anic teaching/ interpretations that is paralysing most Moslems spiritually, culturally, socially, intellectually and sometimes physically.

They all have a real fear of a judging god that has no resemblance to the loving caring sacrificing Christian God; plus a natural hate of the west in general.

We all know that they are not all terrorist as such; but scratch the surface and they all (including you) will stand by their ideologies before they submit to local authorities and government.

So what is your "real' agenda Irf?

Are you a peacemaker trying to build a better community for Moslems?

Are you sharpening your weapons for a political/ journalistic career?

Your articles are biased to Islam even when you try to sound neutral.

So what are you really?
Posted by coach, Friday, 30 June 2006 6:26:32 PM
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Irf - <I have answered your queries>

No you haven’t. I had several queries, you have not answered one, not even the one I imagine would be easiest for a Muslim – I am still waiting to hear the postives of Islam.

< .. one Muslim friend. What does it prove?>

How many Muslim friends does one need to avoid being accused of hating all Muslims? It was never meant to ‘prove’ anything. I mentioned it (among other things) because you seem to think I have never met Muslims, which is not the case.

Scared? Terrorised? Police escort? Why would you think such a thing to be necessary when we would be visiting followers of the Religion of Peace? And what makes you think I never venture outside my ‘protected suburb’? You assume so much. I even ventured to Europe a couple of years ago - that experience is one of the things that makes me so opposed to Islamic immigration to the West.

So, I either accept your invitation to visit mosques or ‘sink in the quicksands of hatred’.

Dramatic phrase, but I have too many things to do to waste my time sinking in quicksand. I simply call it as I see it – Islam has huge problems which most Muslims refuse to admit. Not only do they refuse to admit it, they demonise anyone who criticises Islam, which you have tried to do to me on many occasions.

<Just about every article I have written on this website illustrates the goodness of Islam>

I reread your articles here – some of your opinions I agree with, some not – but I cant see that any of the articles illustrates the goodness of Islam. Perhaps (4th time) you can list them for us?
Posted by dee, Friday, 30 June 2006 7:50:57 PM
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Jelata
Your statement “ it was 'Christendom' who were in general attacking and massacrying people…Our 'unchristianiy',… is almost nothing compared to yours”

Shows that while you’re well drilled on the wrongs of non-Moslems,
you are blissfully ignorant of your own sides wrongs.

You mentioned:
The Crusades: are you aware of what the initial impetus for the crusades –was the encroachment of Islamic peoples into traditional Christian lands –and do you believe their Moslem opponents were pure.
-The Inquisition: our inquisitors finished hundreds of years ago –we no longer seek to execute people because they convert – However the plight of Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasreen & others can testify it’s alive & well in many Islamic countries.
-“Nagasaki”: are you aware of the fate of the inhabitants of Constantinople when the Moslem Turks conquered the city
-“Aborigines & American Indians": have you been informed about Indonesia’s mistreatment of the West Irianses-
“The Holocaust”: are you aware of the (Moslem) Turkish holocaust against (Christian) Armenians
“, Slobodan Milosevic ”: are you aware of the parallel mistreatment of ethnic Serbs by the (Moslem) Albanians. , Slobodan Milosevic is dead – but the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo’s Serbs continues.
And you allude to WMD: Pakistan a Muslim country has WMD –and if Iran & Libya do not –it’s not through lack of trying.

You clearly are not ware of such facts.
Which is precisely the point Dee & others are making.
There seems to be a general tendency for Islamic societies to have a one eyed approach to history.They will publish all the dirt on others, but sweep their own under the carpet.-so people like you never hear of it.

Is there any wonder that some young people, raised on such a restricted diet, see the world as black and white and turn to terrorism.

And - “Thank to ancient multiculturalism of Eastern ppl”
I would be interested to know what “eastern” cultures are exemplars of Multiculturalism.
Posted by Horus, Friday, 30 June 2006 11:16:01 PM
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To Horus:
I'm not in the habbit of blackwhiting realities but sometimes I think I need to use simplified arguments to be easily understood - an eye opening. You quote my respond to Dee. Why not reading my post in general?

I'm not to claim Muslims/East perfect, too. I just to want to say we have certain norms make us better - on a certain area. Ofcourse your western culture is better than us on many area. My suggestion is human will get better when they realize their weakness and advantages in constructive manner.

To the events you compared, have nice study. Haf nice study to the recents situations too.

To every body:
Perhaps it is a good idea to have our mind blank for a moment. You can visit a buddhist monk.
Posted by Jelata, Saturday, 1 July 2006 1:40:02 PM
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Apologies Jelata -perhaps I was too tough on you.
No personal offence intended-best wishes!
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 1 July 2006 9:54:11 PM
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No problem Horus, best wishes, too.
Posted by Jelata, Sunday, 2 July 2006 9:23:57 PM
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far out. Some real wackie pple here.

dee, all Mr Yusf seems to be saying in his article is that Zarqawi killed Shiite Muslims thanks to the propaganda he was fed by the Saudis and their American backers. Why should you have a problem with all this?

i've seen your posts of his other articles. I reckon you really hate Moslems. I reckon other posters here agree with me.

It's wierd you can live in the Eastern Suburbs and only know 1 Moslem. I regularly shop at Eastgardens and see Moslem women all the time. Most of them are from Bangladesh and they are lovely peaceful people. They are also very educated and outgoing.

dee, you really need to get in touch with proper Christian values. Christ taught love. He didn;t teach you to hate your fellow humans, even if they believe in differnt things to you.

if you hated Moslems less, you might be able to understand the article. you migyt actually realise Mr Yusf hates terrorists as much as yuou do.
Posted by Smart Chappy, Monday, 3 July 2006 12:23:12 PM
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Smart Chappy <Why should you have a problem ..>

The ‘fed propaganda’ comment is simply another way of evading responsibility. The actual killers never appear to be at fault – they have all been ‘fed lies’, ‘radicalised' etc. I want to see responsibility placed where it belongs. Zarqawi was a psychopathic bigot who took great pleasure in torturing and killing - but no doubt he was a choir boy before those nasty Americans ‘radicalised’ him. Will Irf (or any Muslim) defend US marines accused of murder on the grounds that they were 'fed lies'?

< I reckon you really hate Moslems.>

Reckon whatever you like. I have no intention of swearing that I don’t hate *all* Muslims every time I criticise Muslims or Islam.

Re article – Irf and I have had many skirmishes, we got sidetracked here. I have no doubt at all that Irf hates terrorists. I think he is a man of good faith doing his best to counteract some of his more radical fellow Muslims. There you are Irf, bet you never thought to hear me say that.

I don’t live in the Eastgardens part of the eastern suburbs but I didn’t say that I only know one Muslim. Reread the post, I said that I have a friend who is Muslim who has never noticed that I ‘hate’ her. I mentioned her only because Irf implied that I am cowering in a ‘safe’ suburb and never see a Muslim; I responded that I see and talk to Muslims every day and have Muslim work colleagues. I have also seen the effect at first hand of large scale Muslim immigration on Europe. Have you?

<..are lovely people>

I don’t doubt it, but these Muslims are not the ones who bother me. I have said many times that I have no problem with Muslims who live peacefully in Australia, obeying the law and integrating with society but Irf (and others) never seem to read that, they read only the bits criticizing Islam and extremist Muslims.
Posted by dee, Monday, 3 July 2006 1:29:01 PM
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"Zarqawi was victim of Al Qaeda plot with Americans: wife"

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/focusoniraq/2006/July/focusoniraq_July12.xml&section=focusoniraq

ROME - Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, the head of Al Qaeda in Iraq, was 'sold to the Americans' because he became too powerful, his wife Um Mohamed said in an interview published on Sunday.

'My husband had become too powerful and he was no doubt bothering someone,' she claimed in an interview with the Italian newspaper La Reppublica.

He 'bothered someone' - Hacking the heads off bound captives will do that .. A dead 'martyr' is always easier to manipulate than a live maniac I suppose.

The 16 year old 'wife' and baby killed with him were ...?

Public televi$ion $tation Iraqia reported that one of the Jordanian member$ of Zarqawi’$ entourage had revealed hi$ whereabout$ to the Iraqi force$.

Of course, they could be lying to cover up the fact that it was really Osama who was jealous of Z's growing power etc etc.
Posted by dee, Monday, 3 July 2006 2:40:06 PM
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I'm with the earlier poster "saintfletcher" - in that I'm concerned about this new method of policing.

Sure, AZ was by all accounts a nasty piece of work. I'm willing to accept that - but I would still expect that some other method of capture be attempted. I would also expect a trial.

I feel the same about Israel shooting missiles into settled parts of Palestine.

These weapons have a legitimate use in attacking military targets - tanks, SAMs, fighter aircraft, warships. Extending them to policing.. seems immoral, cowardly, and ignorant. Those ordering such activities should do more research on the western values and philosphy that they supposedly seek to spread.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Monday, 3 July 2006 10:49:27 PM
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